What's so important about Palestine?

[DWI]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.

[M-26-7]

I don't really understand.

It probably does get more attention than it really deserves in the grand scheme of things, because it is part of a colonizer/colonized conflict, which is sexier than feeding hungry people. Nonetheless, I think solidarity which oppressed people is important.


The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people,

There is no vast "Third World" whose living standards are "far worse" than those in Palestine. Palestinian living standards are awful. And unlike much of third world, Palestine could be transformed overnight, by simply lifting the embargo. Palestinian living standards are held artificially low, every hour of every day. That's the travesty.


while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.

Shut up.

[#FF0000]

don't care how free healthcare is, you ain't a socialist country if you butcher people for the interests of western capital.

[EvilRedGuy]

This thread is bullshit.

[L.A.P.]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh:

[AK]

Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.
A Zionist communist, eh? You'd really hit it off Malte.

[kalu]

I think at a theoretical level Palestine is important because it reinscribes the European problematic of (Jewish) minoritization in the non-European world; Palestinians now become a "minority" within a Jewish state. Thus, the struggle for Palestinian freedom performs a "contaminated universality," it embodies the wider aspirations of colonized peoples, thus its wide circulation as a symbol in other struggles, such as Puerto Rico and Ireland. At a political level, the conflict revolves around one of the world's biggest refugee crises caused by the creation of an Israeli state. I don't believe in "comparing" poverty and suffering, which I find deeply worrisome and problematic, but the reason for Palestine's relevance in the US at least is that the US and the West in general are actively sanctioning occupation and colonization under the banner of supporting a "democracy." While there may be much more political analysis required for the violence taking place in Sudan, for example, Palestine assumes a special preeminence because we, the US, are in a sense actively participating as a country in the destruction of a people, just as there is a lot of anti-war activity that focuses specifically on US and US-supported actions.

[Vaillant]

I recommend you to watch a documentary entitled "Occupation 101" if you want some good insight on this matter.
Palestinians are fighting for their freedom, they lived in the Gaza stripe much before the Jews arrived and started expelling them from their lands and taking their homes.
And at least third world countries get to receive humanitarian help, while on Palestine it doesn't arrive that easily...

Oh and... Isn't it ironic that USA invades Iraq because of mass destruction weapons, and Isreal has over 200 nuclear ogives and never got an Uncle Sam's visit?

[Ele'ill]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.


I disagree that the third world is far worse off.

Yes, the 'global south' is larger- but if you compare conflict to conflict I believe the Palestinians situation is worse than some of the others. This does not indicate a level of importance or unimportance.

[DWI]

Come on, Palestinians are certainly not worse off than the population of Darfur, which has no forum.

I'm not accusing anyone of anti-semitism, because I don't think that is the case, at least for most, but I find it difficult to explain the ridiculous over-emphasis on Israel/Palestine.


A Zionist communist, eh? You'd really hit it off Malte.
Not sure how you read that in to what I said; if you'd followed my posts elsewhere, you'd know I hate the statist socialism. But Israel is undeniably one of, if not the most, statist socialist of the developed nations, and if Israel is imperialist (and it may well be) then certainly no more so than the USSR.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Come on, Palestinians are certainly not worse off than the population of Darfur, which has no forum.

I'm not accusing anyone of anti-semitism, because I don't think that is the case, at least for most, but I find it difficult to explain the ridiculous over-emphasis on Israel/Palestine.


Not sure how you read that in to what I said; if you'd followed my posts elsewhere, you'd know I hate the statist socialism. But Israel is undeniably one of, if not the most, statist socialist of the developed nations, and if Israel is imperialist (and it may well be) then certainly no more so than the USSR.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Israel has a shitty imperialist government that tramples all over the rights of Palestinians everyday. They seem to think that their blood is worth more than the blood of any of the Palestinians. The struggle there is as urgent as it has been for decades; try telling the people of Gaza that our discussions dedicated to their struggle is "over-emphasis".

If you're going to defend Israel on the basis of its "statist socialism" or try to undermine the Palestinian struggle then you should gtfo this forum straight away. You're insulting Palestinians and all of the Israelis who are disgusted by the regime that represents them.

[Vaillant]

Come on, Palestinians are certainly not worse off than the population of Darfur, which has no forum.
I'm not accusing anyone of anti-semitism, because I don't think that is the case, at least for most, but I find it difficult to explain the ridiculous over-emphasis on Israel/Palestine.


Is this some kind of joke or something? Ridiculous over-emphasis? I want to see if, one day it happens to you, you will consider this kind of discussion over-emphasised.
Again, at least third-world countries can get humanitarian aid, as for Palestine last time someone tried to send humanitarian help, activists got killed...

[Ele'ill]

Come on, Palestinians are certainly not worse off than the population of Darfur, which has no forum.

It isn't a game of which people have it worse at the recieving end of attrocities. If 18 civilians are killed by Israeli gunships and 80 Mexican and South American travelers and potential or current status immigrants are found dead in a mass grave miles from the border- both are horrific- both need to be met with resistance.

When Palestinian civilians cannot get to the market because they're being intentionally fucked with and forced back and forth between check-points by Israeli thugs- in the rain- it's no different to me and no less or more of a struggle than those in the United States suffering racial profiling and continued ideological ethnic cleansing by U.S. intelligence and law enforcement agencies.

Same crimes- same purpose.

[The Grey Blur]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.
What is really interesting about this statement, and this one:


don't care how free healthcare is, you ain't a socialist country if you butcher people for the interests of western capital.

Is that they acknowledge the various elements of the welfare state (what is referred to as 'socialism' in the states) that exist in Israel. To over-simplify, this is the product of an ideological commitment to social justice (for Israelis) that Zionism is founded upon, a product of the large jewish left millieu that pre-dates and was involved in its foundation. So there has existed a long "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" relationship between the Israeli ruling and working classes.

But the interesting point is whether or not, in the current mood of global capitalist crisis, whether this relationship is coming to an end. The Israeli government as much as any other is forced to carry out austerity measures which disproportionately attack the living standards, services, jobs etc of the working class...this obviously then has to involve a questioning of this arrangement on the part of the working class and their leadership. The IMT had a good article on this recently.

Anyone more educated can correct me here, I'm just stating broad ideas.

[AK]

Not sure how you read that in to what I said; if you'd followed my posts elsewhere, you'd know I hate the statist socialism. But Israel is undeniably one of, if not the most, statist socialist of the developed nations, and if Israel is imperialist (and it may well be) then certainly no more so than the USSR.


Who is "DK" and why did you credit him/her with what I said?
How is Israel socialist at all?

[IndependentCitizen]

A picture of a facepalm wouldn't be adequate enough.

[The Red Next Door]

Sir, You are fucking idiot; Good day.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.

In all honesty, DWI kind of has a point (except for the Israel is a pretty socialist country remark, that was kinda retarded...). I mean, no doubt the Palestinian struggle should be emphasized in the Revolutionary Movement, but really, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is child's play in comparison to the US and other Imperialists. I understand why (and agree, of course) with those who oppose Israeli policy, but too often, I think the Palestinian Cause is placed at the center of the Revolutionary Movement, when I think US policy in general should be the cornerstone. I mean, the US' tacit support for the Apartheid Israeli government is just one of the glorious policies promoted by the American Government to spread democracy and freedom.

America, Fuck Yeah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_War_Crimes

PS. I don't want to come off as De-emphasizing the Palestinian movement, however I'm empathetic towards DWI's original message: Which is that there are far more De-humanizing/cruel examples of current Imperialism than Palestinian treatment.

Edit: This
It isn't a game of which people have it worse at the recieving end of attrocities. If 18 civilians are killed by Israeli gunships and 80 Mexican and South American travelers and potential or current status immigrants are found dead in a mass grave miles from the border- both are horrific- both need to be met with resistance.

However, I think the death of 80 people should be given preferential treatment over the death of 18 civilians (but nonetheless both should be met with resistance).

[Ele'ill]

However, I think the death of 80 people should be given preferential treatment over the death of 18 civilians (but nonetheless both should be met with resistance).

I don't in this specific situation because today it might be 80 civilians miles from the border compared to 18 civilians killed by Israel and then a wee later it might be 5 killed by Israel and 2 found dead miles from the border and the week after that it might be 10-10 then two days later 12-18 etc etc etc...


Obviously in crisis situations where thousands are dying at a rapid rate- it would make sense to focus on that- but again this doesn't make other areas of conflict less important.

[freepalestine]

I don't in this specific situation because today it might be 80 civilians miles from the border compared to 18 civilians killed by Israel and then a wee later it might be 5 killed by Israel and 2 found dead miles from the border and the week after that it might be 10-10 then two days later 12-18 etc etc etc...


Obviously in crisis situations where thousands are dying at a rapid rate- it would make sense to focus on that-.. .yeah-good post

[Pawn Power]

Y'all are mean. This person comes in here with an ill-informed question and you all lambaste and ridicule him/her.


Sir, You are fucking idiot; Good day.

A picture of a facepalm wouldn't be adequate enough.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gif
: laugh:http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gif:l augh:http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gif:la ugh:http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

This shit is just obnoxious and not very useful.

People don't just walk into movements with all the answers.

[FreeFocus]

People don't just walk into movements with all the answers.

True, but at the same time, it is a genuinely ridiculous question. Imagine a communist in the 1950s asking, "What's so important about civil rights in the US? Blacks in Africa suffer from racism and colonization, we should just mainly focus on that. They get good privileges in the US, in comparison." He would rightly be attacked for a, frankly, dumb ass comment like this.

Palestine is still the issue. It is the biggest example of a modern-day ethnic cleansing with strong parallels to the American model of ethnic cleansing. Why should we stand by and allow such horrors to be perpetrated again?

[gorillafuck]

Not sure how you read that in to what I said; if you'd followed my posts elsewhere, you'd know I hate the statist socialism. But Israel is undeniably one of, if not the most, statist socialist of the developed nations, and if Israel is imperialist (and it may well be) then certainly no more so than the USSR.
The basis of Israels economy is private property and private profit. Israel is very obviously a capitalist country.

[Vaillant]

Ok then, this is just one of the few reasons, why its so important to end Israel actions:

tW1-_JmXQt0

Just search arround, information is out there for anyone who really wants to see and care.

[Ele'ill]

Y'all are mean. This person comes in here with an ill-informed question and you all lambaste and ridicule him/her.



http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

This shit is just obnoxious and not very useful.

People don't just walk into movements with all the answers.


Yes- you are correct to a point. I have seen better examples of people joining the forum and asking a genuine question and getting nothing but dickish attitudes in reply

This is however an internet forum and internet forums are memes in themselves so there is a very fine line between troll and genuine question. Has the original poster (I forget who it was and assume you are not the original poster) even replied to any of the posts?

[Devrim]

Yes- you are correct to a point. I have seen better examples of people joining the forum and asking a genuine question and getting nothing but dickish attitudes in reply

Well yes, but this is meant to be a socialist forum. It shouldn't be like that.


True, but at the same time, it is a genuinely ridiculous question. Imagine a communist in the 1950s asking, "What's so important about civil rights in the US? Blacks in Africa suffer from racism and colonization, we should just mainly focus on that. They get good privileges in the US, in comparison." He would rightly be attacked for a, frankly, dumb ass comment like this.

No, it is not 'right' to attack people for asking questions.


Palestine is still the issue. It is the biggest example of a modern-day ethnic cleansing with strong parallels to the American model of ethnic cleansing.

Obviously it isn't . The ethnic cleansing of Palestine happened in just after the end of the Second World War. Approximately 700,000 people were ethnically cleansed. At the same time around 15,000,000 ethnic Germans were expelled from Eastern Europe, which pretty much dwarfs it. Also during the same period about 11,000,000 were ethnically cleansed during the creation of India and Pakistan. More recently the Bangladeshi War of independence resulted in the cleansing of 10,000,000 Bengalis in 1971, over 1,000,000 were ethnicly cleansed during the Nagorno Karabakh war in 1988, over 3,000,000 during the wars in the break-up of Yugoslavia, and in 1994 nearly 1,000,000 Tutsis were massacred in Rwanda, and within the last decade 2,500,000 non-Arabs have been displaced in Dafour with nearly half a million killed.

What a 'frankly, dumb ass comment'.

Devrim

[~Spectre]

Indeed, we often have to be careful with our rhetoric. The conflict in Palestine gets very heated because of the resistance provided to what seem like the logical and just positions, but the scale of Israel's crimes tend to be exaggerated a great deal. They're still major crimes, but not the "biggest/worst/most extreme", as they oftentimes get labeled.

If you're interested in truly arguing in favor of Palestinian rights, you have to be careful not to provide your opposition with points like that that can be easily swatted down.

cliff notes: You don't need to be inaccurate.

[abovedel]

only reason that you think Israel socialist country. is your media
Because it controls the media and make you see only what they want with a lot of distortion and lies

[Rousedruminations]

They have been harassed, violated, their women raped by israeli soldiers, all the injustices you could think of being committed against the people of Palestine Israel probably has done. The war, is basically a fight of religious territory and land rights.The issue right now, with the UN ( A powerless entity of course recently evident in the lawless country of Congo where they couldn't provide the necessary protection of its civilians from rape despite being in the country for 10 years.) and most power house countries including the US is that they have urged the president of Israel to freeze any Israeli settlements that go far into Palestinian territory, yet Netanyahu remains loyal to the right wing faction of his party. His stubborn refusal is absurd and the fact that most countries around the world are against the continuation of these settlements speaks otherwise.

So ... the war on the people of Gaza continues. Gaza is still under siege – still surrounded by walls and checkpoints. Its people are denied the necessities of life and the right to rebuild and shape their future.The tragic situation- the ghetto walls, the killings, the systematic starvation and deprivation, the daily humiliations. Israel's intention is, instead, to take the Palestinians' homeland and property and to deprive them of civil and human rights. More importantly, Apartheid Israel is a problem maintained by the US for its own purposes in securing a position within middle east energy resources..

[Hiero]

Come on, Palestinians are certainly not worse off than the population of Darfur, which has no forum.



Ahh, the logic of the Zionist, redirect the conversation to Darfur.

[Ocean Seal]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.

Gaza has the densest population in the world. It suffers from Israeli imperialism and its citizens suffer almost to the extent where they can no longer live. Their cities are constantly bombed and there is a food embargo on all their borders. They are unable to produce because Israel and western capital are slowly choking Palestine to death. Also Israel is nowhere near socialist, and even if it were nothing could possibly excuse what they are doing right now.

[Rafiq]

I don't really understand. The Third World is far worse off, and contains far more people, while Israel is itself a pretty socialist country.


Israel is just as 'Socialist' as Fascist Italy.

Israel is completely fascist, and I can't find a better word for it.

Sure they have free healthcare and all, but so did Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany.

It doesn't make your country Socialist.

That Fascist state is a mass murdering Imperialist colony

Fact is, Israeli Regime will be gone very soon.

[Devrim]

Fact is, Israeli Regime will be gone very soon.

I don't see any reason to think so.

Devrim

[Rafiq]

I don't see any reason to think so.

Devrim


The Palestinian population is growing at a phenomenal speed. Israel's enemies are getting extremely advanced.

Let me just break it down for you this way: the next war will be the end of Israel.

First will be the war.
Israel will be defeated.

Slowly and Slowly, the Regime will collapse from the inside.


Apartheid regimes, will always crumble sooner then expected.

Especially when the oppressed ethnicity outnumbers the oppressor.

[Devrim]

Let me just break it down for you this way: the next war will be the end of Israel.

First will be the war.
Israel will be defeated.

I'm old enough to have heard this before. It didn't happen then and there is no reason for it to happen now.

More to the point war with who. None of the Arab states show any inclination to go to war with Israel, and whilst Hezbollah might be able to give Israel a bloody nose in Lebanon, there is a huge difference between that and invading and defeating Israel.

I think you are taking your desires for reality.

Devrim

[the last donut of the night]

The Palestinian population is growing at a phenomenal speed. Israel's enemies are getting extremely advanced.

Let me just break it down for you this way: the next war will be the end of Israel.

First will be the war.
Israel will be defeated.

Slowly and Slowly, the Regime will collapse from the inside.


Apartheid regimes, will always crumble sooner then expected.

Especially when the oppressed ethnicity outnumbers the oppressor.

By that reasoning, wouldn't black people in America be free? Because although nationally they represent a numerical minority, in any urban area they are usually the majority oppressed ethnicity (along with latinos).

2. All the oppressed in this world are a numerical majority. Yet I don't see communism in the horizon.

Much more complicated than that, my friend. I wish it were that simple.

[Rafiq]

By that reasoning, wouldn't black people in America be free? Because although nationally they represent a numerical minority, in any urban area they are usually the majority oppressed ethnicity (along with latinos).

2. All the oppressed in this world are a numerical majority. Yet I don't see communism in the horizon.

Much more complicated than that, my friend. I wish it were that simple.


If America was 80% Black, and they expressed Apartheid against Blacks, then the Regime would collapse soon.


I am talking on an ethnic/racial point of view right now.

And, in Dearborn, Michigan, Most of the population is Muslim.

Does that mean that Muslims represent any kind of majority at all in the US?

You are making this misleading.

[~Spectre]

Let me just break it down for you this way: the next war will be the end of Israel.

First will be the war.
Israel will be defeated.



Which country is going to defeat Israel? Israel has the best weapons systems in the region and a nuclear stockpile. The only armed forces in the world capable of defeating the IDF wouldn't have any incentive to do so, and even if they did, they wouldn't cross the United States.

Israel has shown that it is willing to resort to a nuclear attack if there is a legitimate chance of that the state will be defeated ( The Yom Kippur war).

[Rafiq]

Which country is going to defeat Israel? Israel has the best weapons systems in the region and a nuclear stockpile. The only armed forces in the world capable of defeating the IDF wouldn't have any incentive to do so, and even if they did, they wouldn't cross the United States.

Israel has shown that it is willing to resort to a nuclear attack if there is a legitimate chance of that the state will be defeated ( The Yom Kippur war).


Israel couldn't stop Hezbollah, they tried all of their ways, weapons(Not Nukes, Radiation will spread to Israel).


If small Islamist, Communist, Socialist, Nationalist, Liberal, militias defeated Israel, Don't you think.. .

Hezbollah, Hamas, All of Palestinian and Lebanese Resistance

Syria

Iran

America is losing in Iraq and Afghanistan, they can't do jack shit about it.

The age of Tank to Tank warfare is over.

Sorry... Next war, and Israel is dead.

[Rafiq]

Israel has said that it is willing to resort to a nuclear attack if there is a legitimate chance of that the state will be defeated ( The Yom Kippur war).



Yeah, I promise you, if Israel launches one Nuclear Missle, the whole entire world will attack it.

Maybe not the whole world will attack through military, but oh my, I promise you they will right next to Nazi Germany on the world's shit list.

Russia and China won't allow for Israel to get away with Nukes, considering Iran is one of their biggest oil suppliers.

I promise you if anyone in the world will use a nuke it will only be the US.

Israel won't ever use nukes, even at the point of their destruction.

[Devrim]

Sorry... Next war, and Israel is dead.

As I said it is what I remember people saying before the last war. I know people who were told they could come back after the was when they fled Jaffa in 1948 I presume they have heard it lots of times.


Israel couldn't stop Hezbollah,

Right and because Israel could defeat Hezbollah in Lebanon, it doesn't mean that Hezbollah would even think about an invasion of Israel.


Hezbollah, Hamas, All of Palestinian and Lebanese Resistance

None of whom are going to do more than launch a few missiles, organise a couple of suicide bombings, and maybe at most sacrifice a couple of militants in an incursion.


Syria

Syria doesn't want a war.


Iran

Neither does Iran. By the way, do you think the Iranian army would first invade Iraq, or Turkey to get there?

You are living in a fantasy of your own making.

Devrim

[Rafiq]

As I said it is what I remember people saying before the last war. I know people who were told they could come back after the was when they fled Jaffa in 1948 I presume they have heard it lots of times.



Right and because Israel could defeat Hezbollah in Lebanon, it doesn't mean that Hezbollah would even think about an invasion of Israel.



None of whom are going to do more than launch a few missiles, organise a couple of suicide bombings, and maybe at most sacrifice a couple of militants in an incursion.



Syria doesn't want a war.



Neither does Iran. By the way, do you think the Iranian army would first invade Iraq, or Turkey to get there?

You are living in a fantasy of your own making.

Devrim


1. It depends who invades first. What I mean, if Israel starts the next war, it will be their last.

2. So Communist and Socialist Resistance in Palestine, and in Lebanon, will do this also? By the way, Hezbollah does not use Suicide bombing as a tactic anymore. They no longer Suicide bomb. You fail.

3. Of Course Syria doesn't want war, but they are prepared for it, and will defend with an Iron Fist.

4. Iran doesn't want war, nor does it intend to make the first strike. There military is completely based defensively, while Israel's is offensive.

Like I said, they are willing to fight if they need to.


I don't know who you were talking to, but me, and all of my peers knew that in 2006 Israel wouldn't collapse, it would just cause a whole lot of damage in Lebanon. We knew they wouldn't be able to touch Hezbollah.


My dad was an LCP member. We disagree with their views, but we sympathize with Hezbollah.

Of course a Turk who doesn't know anything about what it's like to live in Lebanon.

Put it this way, my grandfather was in the civil war, Kataeb Fascists were slaughtering Proletariant Shia left and right, this is a historical fact, ask any southern lebanese.

Hezbollah won't tolerate that.

This is why we support them.

Many Hezbollah distance themselves from Iran.

Support for Hezbollah as a resistance doesn't mean you are supporting clerical rule in Iran, either.

[~Spectre]

Israel couldn't stop Hezbollah, they tried all of their ways, weapons(Not Nukes, Radiation will spread to Israel).


If small Islamist, Communist, Socialist, Nationalist, Liberal, militias defeated Israel, Don't you think.. .

Israel Killed 5 fighters for every 1 that they lost. Embarrassing for them to be sure, but that's far from anything remotely suggesting that Israel could lose to any regional force.








Hezbollah, Hamas, All of Palestinian and Lebanese Resistance

Syria

Iran


WTF is Hamas going to do? Hezbollah can't invade Israel.

Syria and Iran have no incentive to attack Israel, and would be beaten back by Israel's conventional forces in a matter of days.



America is losing in Iraq and Afghanistan, they can't do jack shit about it.

America has an unstable occupation in Afghanistan and a now stable one in Iraq. It defeated both countries in a matter of days during the invasion process.




The age of Tank to Tank warfare is over.


Replaced by the era of Ak-47 and shoulder mounted rockets (without explosive tips) beating Fighter Jets and artillery?

[~Spectre]

Israel won't ever use nukes, even at the point of their destruction.

Uh-huh.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm





On the afternoon of 6 October 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in a coordinated surprise attack, beginning the Yom Kippur War. Caught with only regular forces on duty, augmented by reservists with a low readiness level, Israeli front lines crumbled. By early afternoon on 7 October, no effective forces were in the southern Golan Heights and Syrian forces had reached the edge of the plateau, overlooking the Jordan River. This crisis brought Israel to its second nuclear alert.

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that “this is the end of the third temple,” referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. “Temple” was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her “kitchen cabinet” made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells.62

U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was notified of the alert several hours later on the morning of 9 October. The U.S. decided to open an aerial resupply pipeline to Israel, and Israeli aircraft began picking up supplies that day. Although stockpile depletion remained a concern, the military situation stabilized on October 8th and 9th as Israeli reserves poured into the battle and averted disaster. Well before significant American resupply had reached Israeli forces, the Israelis counterattacked and turned the tide on both fronts.

[Devrim]

I don't know who you were talking to, but me, and all of my peers knew that in 2006 Israel wouldn't collapse, it would just cause a whole lot of damage in Lebanon. We knew they wouldn't be able to touch Hezbollah.

I was talking about the last war meaning war between states, not an Israeli incursion to punish Hezbollah. I was referring to the 1973 war.


Of course a Turk who doesn't know anything about what it's like to live in Lebanon.

I am not sure what your point is here as this is only half a sentence. Do you think that Turk's have some genetic incapability of understanding the situation between Israel and the Arab states. As it happens, I am not a Turk, I am a Lebanese citizen (as well as an EU one), and I do know what it is like to live in Lebanon. So what?

Devrim

[freepalestine]

to devrim .you always say the same things about palestine.it's kinda borderline zionist apologist

[Devrim]

to devrim .you always say the same things about palestine.it's kinda borderline zionist apologist

I don't think it is kind of 'borderline zionist apologist'. I think that nationalism, including Palestinian nationalism is a reactionary force with nothing to offer the working class.

Here though, I am not arguing that. Here I am arguing for reality against somebody's fantasy world.

The Arab states and Iran are not going to militarily destroy Israel. I think that is pretty clear.

Or do you think that they are?

Devrim

[Rafiq]

Israel Killed 5 fighters for every 1 that they lost. Embarrassing for them to be sure, but that's far from anything remotely suggesting that Israel could lose to any regional force.

Doesn't matter. They are the most advanced military in the Middle East yet they failed disarming a small Militia.

If Hezbollah attacks Israel, Israel wins.
If Israel attacks lebanon(Obviously will) they lose.





WTF is Hamas going to do? Hezbollah can't invade Israel.

They are going to obliterate the IDF. If Israel crosses into Lebanon they are done.




Syria and Iran have no incentive to attack Israel, and would be beaten back by Israel's conventional forces in a matter of days.

Syria and Iran don't plan on Attacking Israel, I already explained this. Of course a thick skulled Zionist Fascist wouldn't understand.

If Israel attacks one of the two, even if America does, they will fail in doing so.

Their military's are now completely defensive, not offensive.




America has an unstable occupation in Afghanistan and a now stable one in Iraq. It defeated both countries in a matter of days during the invasion process.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/27/world/27iraq.600.jpg

http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20photo%20negatives/2004%20phot%20originals/November/resistmosul11n.jpg

I don't think so




Replaced by the era of Ak-47 and shoulder mounted rockets (without explosive tips) beating Fighter Jets and artillery?

Yeah pretty much.

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3185/Afghanistan%20%2825%29.jpg

[Rafiq]

I was talking about the last war meaning war between states, not an Israeli incursion to punish Hezbollah. I was referring to the 1973 war.


Devrim


The Arabs won in 1973, if I remember correctly.

They may be able to stop invasions from other nations with Missles, tanks, Planes, American weapons.

But I promise, I don't care what the hell you have, for some odd reason,

These 'extremely advanced' Imperialist states get completely raped when going up against small Militias, or Resistance.

[Devrim]

The Arabs won in 1973, if I remember correctly.

You don't. The Arabs started well but Israel pushed them back. It was probably a draw with the Israeli army's idea of its own infallibility permanently damaged though. If anybody won on a military level it was the Israeli's. The Arab nationalists bigged it up, not because they won, but because they weren't decisively defeated.

My point was though that people were saying that the next war 'would be the end of Israel" as you are saying now. Obviously it wasn't.


Syria and Iran don't plan on Attacking Israel, I already explained this. Of course a thick skulled Zionist Fascist wouldn't understand.

If Israel attacks one of the two, even if America does, they will fail in doing so.

Their military's are now completely defensive, not offensive.

You have quite gone back on what you were saying, which is probably a good thing as it had little connection to reality.

At first you were saying that it would be the end for Israel, and now you seem to be saying that Arab states and/or Hezbollah can successfully fight a defensive war.

This is a different question, and is completely possible. It is not where we started out though.

Devrim

[~Spectre]

The Arabs won in 1973, if I remember correctly.



What color is the sky in your world?

[Barry Lyndon]

What color is the sky in your world?

I actually think this is one of Sharati's few valid points. The Syrians were defeated badly, but the Egyptians, although they were driven back in the latter stage of the war and suffered heavy losses, got Israel to give the Sinai back to them, which had been their objective in the first place.

[~Spectre]

I actually think this is one of Sharati's few valid points. The Syrians were defeated badly, but the Egyptians, although they were driven back in the latter stage of the war and suffered heavy losses, got Israel to give the Sinai back to them, which had been their objective in the first place.


The United States along with Israeli leaders decided that it would be too much trouble to keep the Sinai after the display of the 73 war. That has nothing even remotely to do with that guy's false assertion that the Arab states won that war.

[Rafiq]

The United States along with Israeli leaders decided that it would be too much trouble to keep the Sinai after the display of the 73 war. That has nothing even remotely to do with that guy's false assertion that the Arab states won that war.


So what did Israel really accomplish in the war of '73?

Egypt got Sinai back, what did Israel get?

[~Spectre]

So what did Israel really accomplish in the war of '73?


Israel was attacked during the 73 war. They accomplished repelling the invasion in its entirety and inflicting significantly heavier casualties on invaders that outnumbered them.

Egypt got the Sinai back afterward, due to simple cost-benefit, not because it took it by force during the actual conflict.

You've literally been wrong every time you've clicked "submit reply" in this thread.

[Rafiq]

Israel was attacked during the 73 war. They accomplished repelling the invasion in its entirety and inflicting significantly heavier casualties on invaders that outnumbered them.

Egypt got the Sinai back afterward, due to simple cost-benefit, not because it took it by force during the actual conflict.

You've literally been wrong every time you've clicked "submit reply" in this thread.

So according to you, Israel won the war of 1973 "because they killed more people".


Okay, they still didn't accomplish anything.

The only change was that they lost Sinai.

Which is a win for Egypt.

[Rafiq]

You've literally been wrong every time you've clicked "submit reply" in this thread.


Typical Zionist-style way of argument.

[Barry Lyndon]

If America was 80% Black, and they expressed Apartheid against Blacks, then the Regime would collapse soon.


I am talking on an ethnic/racial point of view right now.

And, in Dearborn, Michigan, Most of the population is Muslim.

Does that mean that Muslims represent any kind of majority at all in the US?

You are making this misleading.

Uhm you know that Apartheid South Africa was 80% Black African right? The ruling whites were only 20% of the population.
What mattered was that the 20% had the guns.

[Barry Lyndon]

Anyway, the original post was not about the OP, it is about why Palestine is important.

What makes Palestine stand out is not really the scale of the atrocities Israel is committing against the indigenous Arab population(although they are, no doubt, serious crimes)- in terms of numbers killed their have been far greater slaughters committed in Iraq, Sudan, the Congo, Chechnya, etc. What is striking is the level of hypocrisy involved. Israel and its apologists in the United States constantly loudly proclaim Israel to be the 'only democracy in the Middle East'. They justify every house demolished, every olive tree uprooted, every child machine-gunned to death, every mosque or school destroyed by white posphorus by dragging out the Holocaust, constantly invoking the deaths of millions of Jews to justify the ongoing brutalization and torture of the Palestinian people, a third party that had nothing to do with that crime then and certainly doesn't now, 65 years after the fact.

The other thing that is striking is if the U.S. government simply cut off the $3 billion in military aid it gives to Israel every year, the occupation would stop. Unlike many conflicts, the resolution is suprisingly simple and straightforward. But this is blocked by the fact that Israel plays an enormously helpful role in US imperialism by serving as an de facto offshore US military base that helps Washington maintain control of the oil-rich Middle East.

[MarxSchmarx]

Anyway, the original post was not about the OP, it is about why Palestine is important.

What makes Palestine stand out is not really the scale of the atrocities Israel is committing against the indigenous Arab population(although they are, no doubt, serious crimes)- in terms of numbers killed their have been far greater slaughters committed in Iraq, Sudan, the Congo, Chechnya, etc. What is striking is the level of hypocrisy involved. Israel and its apologists in the United States constantly loudly proclaim Israel to be the 'only democracy in the Middle East'. They justify every house demolished, every olive tree uprooted, every child machine-gunned to death, every mosque or school destroyed by white posphorus by dragging out the Holocaust, constantly invoking the deaths of millions of Jews to justify the ongoing brutalization and torture of the Palestinian people, a third party that had nothing to do with that crime then and certainly doesn't now, 65 years after the fact.

The other thing that is striking is if the U.S. government simply cut off the $3 billion in military aid it gives to Israel every year, the occupation would stop. Unlike many conflicts, the resolution is suprisingly simple and straightforward. But this is blocked by the fact that Israel plays an enormously helpful role in US imperialism by serving as an de facto offshore US military base that helps Washington maintain control of the oil-rich Middle East.

Whilst I think this is probably the best explanation that has come up thusfar, I stilll do not buy it in its entirety.

The fact of the matter is is that if one wants to go after the hypocrisy of the United States, one doesn't have to venture very far. For instance, consider the large number of African AMericans imprisoned, and the anti-immigrant sentiment that domestically fuels protectionist measures. Not to mention the ethnic cleansing against the indigenous peoples.

So why does Israel get signaled out? Well, for one thing it is worth pointing out this is a phenomena unique to the Anglosaxon and Arabic world and Iran and Western Europe. You go to East Asia or sub-Saharan Africa, even most of latin America, and people don't care (by and large). Sure the Jews and Arabs in sub-Saharan Africa or Latin America care, but the interest in this issue is restricted to those groups.

To echo other posters, I think at the end of the day it has to do with the fact that Israel is effectively a European/anglosaxon country, propped up by the United States and the EU. Its inhabitants are majority European descent, let's face it it is an economically developed country, and many there speak good English, and the Israeli elite continues to have strong cultural ties to Europe and North America. As such there is a wide-shared ideology of Israel being "one of theirs" among the global norht.

[Rafiq]

Uhm you know that Apartheid South Africa was 80% Black African right? The ruling whites were only 20% of the population.
What mattered was that the 20% had the guns.


What happened to the Apartheid Regime and their guns

[Devrim]

So what did Israel really accomplish in the war of '73?

Egypt got Sinai back, what did Israel get?


Israel was attacked during the 73 war. They accomplished repelling the invasion in its entirety and inflicting significantly heavier casualties on invaders that outnumbered them.

Egypt got the Sinai back afterward, due to simple cost-benefit, not because it took it by force during the actual conflict.

You've literally been wrong every time you've clicked "submit reply" in this thread.


So according to you, Israel won the war of 1973 "because they killed more people".


Okay, they still didn't accomplish anything.

The only change was that they lost Sinai.

Which is a win for Egypt.

The issue of the 1973 war was originally raised in the discussion because just as you are maintaining now, people were saying that the next war would lead to the destruction of Israel. It didn't. Whether it was a fractional victory to the Arab states isn't the point here.

If the question is what did Israel gain though, what they did was to break 'Arab unity', make a separate peace with Egypt, and in doing so vanquished the possibility of the Arab states being able to launch an effective war against Israel. I imagine it was a deal they thought was trading the Sinai for.


Typical Zionist-style way of argument.

Calling anyone who disagrees with you a 'Zionist' is pretty much the intellectual equivalent of the real Zionists calling everybody who disagrees with them an anti-semitie.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Anyway, the original post was not about the OP, it is about why Palestine is important.

What makes Palestine stand out is not really the scale of the atrocities Israel is committing against the indigenous Arab population(although they are, no doubt, serious crimes)- in terms of numbers killed their have been far greater slaughters committed in Iraq, Sudan, the Congo, Chechnya, etc. What is striking is the level of hypocrisy involved. Israel and its apologists in the United States constantly loudly proclaim Israel to be the 'only democracy in the Middle East'. They justify every house demolished, every olive tree uprooted, every child machine-gunned to death, every mosque or school destroyed by white posphorus by dragging out the Holocaust, constantly invoking the deaths of millions of Jews to justify the ongoing brutalization and torture of the Palestinian people, a third party that had nothing to do with that crime then and certainly doesn't now, 65 years after the fact.


Whilst I think this is probably the best explanation that has come up thusfar, I stilll do not buy it in its entirety.

I don't think it is a good explanation at all. Essentially it is just moralism.

Devrim

[freepalestine]

I don't think it is kind of 'borderline zionist apologist'. I think that nationalism, including Palestinian nationalism is a reactionary force with nothing to offer the working class.

Here though, I am not arguing that. Here I am arguing for reality against somebody's fantasy world.

The Arab states and Iran are not going to militarily destroy Israel. I think that is pretty clear.

Or do you think that they are?

Devrimyou say the same things always about palestine,not just on this thread.
as for the arab states or iran-no i doubt it.
how do you / your group think the situation of israel/palestine be resolved?

[Devrim]

you say the same things always about palestine,not just on this thread.

That is called being consistent.


how do you / your group think the situation of israel/palestine be resolved?

Personally I think that no real resolution is possible within the foreseeable future. It is possible that Israel and the PLO will conduct some 'deal', which does absolutely nothing to change the situation at all, but I don't see any 'solution ' appearing.

Devrim

[freepalestine]

That is called being consistent.what i meant was you being negative about anything dealing with palestine,to the level that you sound like a zionistapologist,




Personally I think that no real resolution is possible within the foreseeable future. It is possible that Israel and the PLO will conduct some 'deal', which does absolutely nothing to change the situation at all, but I don't see any 'solution ' appearing.

Devrimanother abstract statement .what i said was, what does you/your group think would be a good solution' for palestine?

[Devrim]

what i meant was you being negative about anything dealing with palestine,to the level that you sound like a zionistapologist,

Before you start calling people names please try and find one instance where I have supported, condoned, or apologised for the state of Israel. You won't.



another abstract statement .what i said was, what does you/your group think would be a good solution' for palestine?

It is not abstract at all. It is very clear and honest. What is 'abstract' is tiny leftist groups in the West arguing about whether they hold a one or two state solution.

We don't think that there is a 'good solution'. Personally I doubt it is a problem that is solvable within capitalism, and so the suffering of Palestinian people goes on. It is horrific, but adopting abstract slogans won't change anything.

I don't think we can go even start to approach a solution without massive working class struggle across the entire region.

Personally I think the Palestinian class is the most defeated in the region, and is virtually incapable of asserting its own interests.

Devrim

[Rafiq]

The issue of the 1973 war was originally raised in the discussion because just as you are maintaining now, people were saying that the next war would lead to the destruction of Israel. It didn't. Whether it was a fractional victory to the Arab states isn't the point here.


Devrim

Well that was my point when I was arguing with spectre about it.