End of the parliamentary phase of the transition to socialism in Venezuela.

[rararoadrunner]

The election results have clearly evinced that the parliamentary phase of the transition to socialism has reached its conclusion in Venezuela: the opposition is back in a big way, aided by a united electoral list from the former AD and COPEI (which, before the transition began, were one-another's chief competition).

The opposition has learnt well the lessons of their boycott of the Bolivarian National Assembly: from now on, they will be in a position to block any further transition to socialism as long as the parliamentary phase of that transition lasts in Venezuela.

What is to be done?

1) Build the consejos comunales, consejos obreros, comunas, to the point that they can convene national Congresses;

2)exploit the general strike of capital (which is what the global economic crisis represents) in order for the Congreso de Consejos y Comunas to initiate the transfer of power from the National Assembly to itself (and, inter alia, the transfer of economic power from capitalist enterprises to worker-owned consejos obreros).

3) Internationally: do all that can be done to help build the V Socialist International, both within the region (especially among socialist parties in government) and worldwide.

These are the minimum necessary steps which need to be taken in order to continue the transition to socialism, both within Venezuela, within the ALBA area, and worldwide: Venezuela has reached the end of the parliamentary phase of that transition.

Hasta pronto, y a la victoria, siempre, MKO.

[Obs]

As supportive as I am of the progress in Venezuela, I have a chilly, nagging feeling that Hugo's gonna fuck it up. Anyone else think the PSUV needs some fresh leadership?

[Kiev Communard]

The easiest way to do away with the right-wingers in Venezuela is extremely simple - ban the supporters of and participants in 2002 coup d'etat from taking part in political life. However, it is clear that the parliamentarism is a dead end. That's why I am inclined to support the demarchy model of the sort that Paul Cockshott and Die Neue Zeit are advocating here.

[maskerade]

The easiest way to do away with the right-wingers in Venezuela is extremely simple - ban the supporters of and participants in 2002 coup d'etat from taking part in political life. However, it is clear that the parliamentarism is a dead end. That's why I am inclined to support the demarchy model of the sort that Paul Cockshott and Die Neue Zeit are advocating here.

Yea, such a model would be best. however, as PSUV no longer has a 2/3 majority, they cannot change the constitution.

And to ban people who attempted to illegally overthrow an elected government would spark cries of "dictatorship", "totalitarianism", etc from the democracy loving imperialists, and i'm pretty sure they would do something extreme in order to restore balance if such a thing was to happen.

[Barry Lyndon]

Yea, such a model would be best. however, as PSUV no longer has a 2/3 majority, they cannot change the constitution.

And to ban people who attempted to illegally overthrow an elected government would spark cries of "dictatorship", "totalitarianism", etc from the democracy loving imperialists, and i'm pretty sure they would do something extreme in order to restore balance if such a thing was to happen.

They have three months before the National Assembly's composition changes. I say they should push through as many changes as they can. There also needs to be serious purges of corrupt officials within the party-it will weaken the PSUV in the short run but will strengthen it in the long run.

And fuck those who would cry 'dictatorship' since their just liars and hypocrites who don't mind dictatorship as long as its a right-wing pro-business one. You should never play by the rules when they are created by people who want you dead.

I think it's important to keep our heads and not get into a defeatist hysteria over this-thats precisely what the capitalist media wants. To be sure, it is a setback but the revolutionary forces in Venezuela still has widespread popular support. The opposition consists of 20 different parties, including the so-called 'socialist' parties who treacherously defected from the PSUV. If the revolutionary grassroots actively mobilizes to radicalize the struggle on the ground(more factory occupations, more land seizures, more workers and peasants militias) and holds Chavezs's feet to the fire over rooting out the corruption and treason within the PSUV, the opposition will likely splinter and the gains they made will be nullified.

This could have a silver-lining. The whip of counter-revolution is what spurs revolution forward.

[maskerade]

They have three months before the National Assembly's composition changes. I say they should push through as many changes as they can.

And fuck those who would cry 'dictatorship' since their just liars and hypocrites who don't mind dictatorship as long as its a right-wing pro-business one. You should never play by the rules when they are created by people who want you dead.

I was being ironic :)

[Kiev Communard]

And to ban people who attempted to illegally overthrow an elected government would spark cries of "dictatorship", "totalitarianism", etc from the democracy loving imperialists, and i'm pretty sure they would do something extreme in order to restore balance if such a thing was to happen.

The U.S. is pretty much financially strangled today, and anyway it would be political suicide for them to begin full-scale war against Venezuela just for the sake of their local cronies. As for Venezuelan Army, it is more or less socialist-inclined and the popular militias set up by Chavez are important counter-balance to any attempt at new coup (something that Alliende lacked back then).

[Barry Lyndon]

The U.S. is pretty much financially strangled today, and anyway it would be political suicide for them to begin full-scale war against Venezuela just for the sake of their local cronies. As for Venezuelan Army, it is more or less socialist-inclined and the popular militias set up by Chavez are important counter-balance to any attempt at new coup (something that Alliende lacked back then).

Chavez definitely has learned from history in that regard. However, I think he and too many within the PSUV are repeating Allende's mistake of trusting too much in parliamentary procedures to build socialism. A mistake that cost Allende and thousands of others their lives.

[maskerade]

Chavez definitely has learned from history in that regard. However, I think he and too many within the PSUV are repeating Allende's mistake of trusting too much in parliamentary procedures to build socialism. A mistake that cost Allende and thousands of others their lives.

yea to be honest, Chavez has done most of the things he can with parliamentary limits. When it comes to creating a socialist economy though, he'll need to go beyond liberal democracy.

I'm sure he knows this though, and i guess we just have to wait and see

[rararoadrunner]

They have three months before the National Assembly's composition changes. I say they should push through as many changes as they can. There also needs to be serious purges of corrupt officials within the party-it will weaken the PSUV in the short run but will strengthen it in the long run.

And fuck those who would cry 'dictatorship' since their just liars and hypocrites who don't mind dictatorship as long as its a right-wing pro-business one. You should never play by the rules when they are created by people who want you dead.

I think it's important to keep our heads and not get into a defeatist hysteria over this-thats precisely what the capitalist media wants. To be sure, it is a setback but the revolutionary forces in Venezuela still has widespread popular support. The opposition consists of 20 different parties, including the so-called 'socialist' parties who treacherously defected from the PSUV. If the revolutionary grassroots actively mobilizes to radicalize the struggle on the ground(more factory occupations, more land seizures, more workers and peasants militias) and holds Chavezs's feet to the fire over rooting out the corruption and treason within the PSUV, the opposition will likely splinter and the gains they made will be nullified.

This could have a silver-lining. The whip of counter-revolution is what spurs revolution forward.

My thanks, comrade, for the excellent reply: it has been forwarded to the English-language foro of Aporrea.org, and from there to my Facebook and Twitter pages, which many comrades read. Muchimas gracias otra vez, camarada. Well done.

[Die Neue Zeit]

As I said in another thread (I am surprised that comrade Kiev "thanked" me there, too), in the immediate term (short of demarchy), Chavez needs to have "managed democracy," with a managed (left-leaning) multi-party legislative system and an executive akin to Putin and today's Kremlin.


The easiest way to do away with the right-wingers in Venezuela is extremely simple - ban the supporters of and participants in 2002 coup d'etat from taking part in political life. However, it is clear that the parliamentarism is a dead end. That's why I am inclined to support the demarchy model of the sort that Paul Cockshott and Die Neue Zeit are advocating here.

Re. the coup participants and supporters: treat them like how Putin shamed and jailed Khodorovsky. :)

[Obs]

Re. the coup participants and supporters: treat them like how Putin shamed and jailed Khodorovsky. :)
I have another idea: treat them like Lenin mercilessly exterminated the Whites.

[fa2991]

The opposition is not "back in a big way." They boycotted the last election and didn't boycott this one... so obviously they did better than the one they didn't participate in. Chavez's comrades actually did better this time than they did in the last election the opposition voted in.

[Amphictyonis]

The CIA/NSA/US military won't let Venezuela actually become socialist. The US also backs the capitalists in Venezuela and is positioning itself to fight the rise of socialism in South America.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-builds-up-its-bases-in-oilrich-south-america-1825398.html


The 'cold war' isn't over.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I have another idea: treat them like Lenin mercilessly exterminated the Whites.

Um, Lenin allowed quite a huge number of them back into the civil bureaucracy. You know, the old czarist bureaucrats.

The generals are a different story.

Oh, and my assumption is on the basis that Chavez isn't a real revolutionary. He should at least push to his limits when he can.

[Artemis3]

The easiest way to do away with the right-wingers in Venezuela is extremely simple - ban the supporters of and participants in 2002 coup d'etat from taking part in political life. However, it is clear that the parliamentarism is a dead end. That should have been done in 2002, but then Chavez went for "dialogue" and "peace tables", only to be hit again later in 2003, 2004, etc. In fact some of the coup participants made it to the National Assembly on this very elections. State Justice is almost useless here.

If the revolution were to advance, I'm sure many right wingers would leave the country out of fear alone. All needed is for the workers to take control of their workplaces simultaneously; then we would see who is Chavez going to side with, the capitalists or the workers.

[pranabjyoti]

Chavez should shake away his petty-bourgeoisie dilemma and learn some lessons from Stalin regarding how to defend the revolution. Sorry to say, both he and Morales are too much dependent on old state institutions like military, parliament. This seems to me pretty like Lenin's remark after the revolution. That is "we are running the old, obsolete, rusty machine by adding some few drops of lubricant". They have to understand that it's time to destroy the old social system along with its superstructure. In short, they have to destroy the throne itself instead of just replacing the old emperors by themselves.
I am curious to know the analysis of Paul Cockshitt and Friedrich's ideas in such a scenario. Friedrich himself has some influence on Chavez.

[Artemis3]

Yea, such a model would be best. however, as PSUV no longer has a 2/3 majority, they cannot change the constitution That's not exactly true. While calling for referendum from the legislative needs two thirds, the people themselves can call it, with only 25% of the registered voters (about 4.5 million). The problem is proposing the right changes, and convincing the people they are good.

Remember the only election Chavez lost out of 15 done in the past 11 years, was a (large) Constitutional reform, which included many socialist changes including lowering daily working hours to 6 (from 8), deeper land ownership changes (towards collectivism); stronger power for organized people, including bypassing the State elected officials, etc.

However the right wing media did a terror campaign about "Cubanization", losing "Private Property", even the old tired "losing your kids" and such, causing tremendous abstention even on Chavez supporters. Again, the mistake of not dealing with the 2002 Coup supporters, the private media...

[Artemis3]

yea to be honest, Chavez has done most of the things he can with parliamentary limits. When it comes to creating a socialist economy though, he'll need to go beyond liberal democracy.

I'm sure he knows this though, and i guess we just have to wait and see

Maybe I'm wrong, but i believe Chavez slowed down when he saw the constitutional reform lost back in 2007. He knows what to change, but the people hasn't grasped the whole anti-capitalism thing. Just remember the idea of Socialism only had 10% support before Chavez, and in this lost referendum those in favor of the deep changes reached 49%.

Otherwise why are so few factories in workers control? Why aren't all workplaces being taken over by now? Because the people doesn't fully grasp this just yet, they need to learn more.

There is a good push from below from the few organized grassroots movements, and Chavez at the top, but there is a whole middle vacuum. Its one of the reasons they founded an united socialist party in the first place, hoping to increase ideology with the help of the more traditional left leadership; which is perhaps why trotskysts and others joined, the idea being help the masses understand the new (to them) concepts and encourage them.


That said, within the National Assembly there are 2 things, first as you already know, the current one will remain until December, the last day they could pass a law for Chavez to legislate by decree again (not like it helped much last time but). Such a thing could grant him that power for 1 or 2 years i guess, well enough to the Presidential elections of 2012.

Then, even if they don't do that, before December, in the new Assembly, there are 98 seats in favor of Chavez, and 99 votes its all needed to pass a law so he can legislate by decree, so they would need to convince only 1. Also PSUV already has simple majority on their own, and thats all its needed to pass most laws, its not like the opposition got the majority, not even all their parties together are going above 67 seats.

2 thirds was the goal for a perfect victory, but simple majority is still a victory. Of course, you are all right that this dependence on the legislative branch or the state powers for that matter is not good, people must organize and act, in coordination, sure, but not waiting forever the bureaucracy.

The future laws and even constitutional reforms must increase people power and lower and lower institutional (Capitalist State) power. The people elected them for that reason, not because they want to go sleep and leave everything in their hands. We do not believe in representative democracy, we are almost fed up with it, we want more Direct democracy, called "Participatory" in our current Constitution. In short, less authorities, more collectives taking decisions, first on local matters, then regional, national, etc.

[RadioRaheem84]

The reality on the ground is that Chavez has exhausted his parliamentary ways of enacting socialism. If it wasn't for the military on his side, he would've ended up like Allende a long time ago.

It's time to ban the opposition, nationalize more banks and start to drive the capitalists out. It won't be that simple, but he just has to stop avoiding the coming storm and proceed to bring in the first punch.

He knew this was coming. He talked about it all the time in his speeches, but he has done everything to avoid it too.

[Amphictyonis]

The CIA/NSA/US military won't let Venezuela actually become socialist. The US also backs the capitalists in Venezuela and is positioning itself to fight the rise of socialism in South America.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-builds-up-its-bases-in-oilrich-south-america-1825398.html


The 'cold war' isn't over.

Funny a couple days after posting that there was as a failed Ecuadoran coup. I'd also like to ask posters in this thread if they agree with this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_One_Country

[meow]

arm the people. disband the police and the military as government entitys. if the parliament must be used use it to abolish property (being means of production rather than personal possession or house) beyond a certain amount (three times annual average wage perhaps?). "give" permission to those who work to seize control of what they work with (the means of production) regardless of who "owns" it.

repudiate all international treatys. abolish parliament disolving power to local level. and then someone should shoot hugo and burn the body just to be sure that the vampire of state socialism does not rise again. (vampire because it sucks the blood from the true revolution!).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

There seems to be consensus in this debate so far, that certain actions should take place:

Workers to simultaneously take control of workplaces
Chavez to move to extra-parliamentary measures to enact Socialism - work with those proletarians taking control of their workplaces to erect national congresses, thus putting dual political and economic pressure on the state, on capital and ultimately leading to the collapse of the Capitalist economic system in Venezuela.
Nationalise the banking system

These points in combination are really important, moreso than any move to parliamentary dictatorship by banning the opposition, which to me is silly and a political own goal.

These points are important, especially given the rise of the SUCRE currency - now is the perfect time to abandon capital and to fundamentally re-align the ownership of the means of production in the hands of the working class, in conjunction with the PSUV and Chavez.

Whether Chavez is up to the job could be key to the success or failure of the revolution. Let us hope, comrades.

[meow]

chavez is up to the job?! right...

remember one man (nor even any one person) does not and cannot make communism. communism and revolution is made by the mass of hte people!

obviously chavez is not up to the job. but the state system as a whole is obviously influenced by chavez. which means that he has some level of power. which he should use to help convince others in the state to abolish the state...

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

As I said in another thread (I am surprised that comrade Kiev "thanked" me there, too), in the immediate term (short of demarchy), Chavez needs to have "managed democracy," with a managed (left-leaning) multi-party legislative system and an executive akin to Putin and today's Kremlin.



Re. the coup participants and supporters: treat them like how Putin shamed and jailed Khodorovsky. :)

"Multi party, left leaning" translated=sabotage. Why bother trying to bring in other political elements when you know they are are totally against a full socialist democracy.I have a good idea, instead of trying to appease other political groups, how bout bringing in representatives from various industries, representatives from various communities.if what he is trying to build is socialism, then shouldn't the people have a say?

[Q]

I agree with Kiev Communard. Demarchy/lottery democracy (or whatever you call it) is the next logical step forwards towards a dictatorship of the proletariat (or direct democracy, etc). The parliamentary system was designed to act as a democratic face to an undemocratic class being in power. We shouldn't play the capitalist game.

Artemis3 in post 18 makes a good point: if it is really possible for 25% of the registered electorate to call a referendum, shouldn't we be focusing to use this mechanism to build a mass campaign for a genuine socialist constitution and by it build an independent working class that becomes aware of its historical role to seize power? That has an added benefit: we no longer rely very much on the good deeds of Chavez as it is the class itself that is moving and if the state blocks such a campaign, that shows its true colors as well.

[Die Neue Zeit]

"Multi party, left leaning" translated=sabotage. Why bother trying to bring in other political elements when you know they are are totally against a full socialist democracy.

I didn't say anything about legitimizing MUD. That group would be banned if it's receiving out$ide funds, or harangued with bureaucratic red tape, or forced to compete against some Chavez-created Potemkin party.

In this "managed democracy" scenario, the PSUV and PCV, along with those few minor parties supportive of the "Bolivarian Revolution," would be the only players in town.

[cb9's_unity]

A revolution that can die in parliament is no revolution at all.

Its concerning that so many us think that everything is to be won or lost in the national assembly. If it becomes clear that the opposition will stop full socialism coming from the Venezuelan government then the workers should start taking revolutionary measures themselves. Just because the national assembly can't enact socialism doesn't mean that the Venezuelan government can't allow socialism to happen. When workers press forward, when they clash with capitalists, it is the job of the current government to always take the side of the workers.

The workers of Venezuela shouldn't rely entirely on parliament. They instead should take advantage of a government that, if it has any true revolutionary credentials, will allow the workers to make strides on their own. Workers in most country's can only count on their governments to fight against them.

[Artemis3]

Artemis3 in post 18 makes a good point: if it is really possible for 25% of the registered electorate to call a referendum, shouldn't we be focusing to use this mechanism to build a mass campaign for a genuine socialist constitution and by it build an independent working class that becomes aware of its historical role to seize power? That has an added benefit: we no longer rely very much on the good deeds of Chavez as it is the class itself that is moving and if the state blocks such a campaign, that shows its true colors as well.

See Articles 71 to 74 (http://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/3) for Popular Referendum, for Constitutional Reform see Title IX (http://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/9) (I made a mistake, its just 15%). The only problem is, Do the majority of the people understands? Otherwise this would have been done already...

[Q]

See Articles 71 to 74 (http://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/3) for Popular Referendum, for Constitutional Reform see Title IX (http://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/9) (I made a mistake, its just 15%). The only problem is, Do the majority of the people understands? Otherwise this would have been done already...

You don't need a majority of the population to understand the ins and outs of the constitution per seto wage a campaign to change it. The purpose of the campaign is exactly to make people aware of the possibilities and to start questioning the order of things.

It does indeed seem somewhat strange that no one has taken up this task or sees a potential here.