Josip Broz Tito - a true Communist or not?

[Red Poplar]

We are all aware that JB Tito deserves a lot of credit for his effort against fascism - he organized one of the strongest anti-fascist movements of the WWII, annexed Istria and Dalmatia and turned Yugoslavia from a country of "horses, donkeys and beef" to a modern, industrialized force. He considered himself and his party as communist, however was he a Communist in practice?

What do you think, was his split with Stalin and the Comintern, then his non-aligned approach justified? Was his pan-Yugoslav movement a result of the will for national liberation, or left-wing nationalism? Since as far as I know, Communism and left-wing nationalism are not compatible. Some of his policies are also incompatible with Communist views, such as his opposition to homosexuality and abortion (which he finally legalized in 1974 and 1978 respectively, willing to make SFRY more liberal). In short, do you see Tito as a positive or negative character among the Communists, and why?

[Tomhet]

I'm not sure, but who cares? what does JBT have to do with the modern anti capitalist movement? :confused:

[Red Poplar]

I'm not sure, but who cares? what does JBT have to do with the modern anti capitalist movement? :confused:

It's never worthless to discuss the past movements and politicians, they heavily influence the present ones.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm not sure, but who cares? what does JBT have to do with the modern anti capitalist movement? :confused:

This is RetroLeft--al we do here is rehash old idologies. :D

[RGacky3]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomhet http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1879807#post1879807)
I'm not sure, but who cares? what does JBT have to do with the modern anti capitalist movement? :confused:
It's never worthless to discuss the past movements and politicians, they heavily influence the present ones.

Joseph Tito does not influence present any anti-capitalist movements, so yeah, who cares.

[Panda Tse Tung]

It's never worthless to discuss the past movements and politicians, they heavily influence the present ones.
I agree, to answer your question. I think he was a Communist, albeit a heavilty revisionist one. His Mutualist idea's should not be put into practise ever again, it is simply worker-run capitalism (and not even good at that). That said the gains made in Yugoslavia are to be highly respected and it is noteworthy that he kept together (not single-handedly of course) the Yugoslavian country despite imperialist pressured nationalism.

[Bud Struggle]

Joseph Tito does not influence present any anti-capitalist movements, so yeah, who cares.

Do you ever read the Big Board? It's all about the "good old days." :D

Discussions going on right now in "Learning."

Leon Trotsky's "Permenant Revolution" ?

Why do so many anarchists on here admire Trotsky, considering Kronstadt?

Greatest M-L Leader

Do all M-L support stalin?

Gramsci vs. Bordiga

[Red Poplar]

This is RetroLeft--al we do here is rehash old idologies. :D

Of course, as you said, the "good ol' days". :D


I agree, to answer your question. I think he was a Communist, albeit a heavilty revisionist one. His Mutualist idea's should not be put into practise ever again, it is simply worker-run capitalism (and not even good at that). That said the gains made in Yugoslavia are to be highly respected and it is noteworthy that he kept together (not single-handedly of course) the Yugoslavian country despite imperialist pressured nationalism.

Tito's economic policies are often described as "market socialism". But capitalism, I wouldn't say so, I mean he still organized a wide welfare, practically there weren't poor people on the streets, the standard of living was good enough that life expectancy in some republics was higher than in the UK. Large and mid-sized companies were run by workers' councils, yet the small ones were allowed to be private property, but I wouldn't call it capitalism nevertheless. The taxation system prevented small businessmen from becoming rich, and labour laws prevented exploitation of workers.

[RGacky3]

Leon Trotsky's "Permenant Revolution" ?

Why do so many anarchists on here admire Trotsky, considering Kronstadt?

Greatest M-L Leader

Do all M-L support stalin?

Gramsci vs. Bordiga
__________________

Waste of time imo.

That being said, Titos Yugoslavia was somewhat democratic than other "communist" states, mainly due to worker self management, but still political repression and (at least on the federal level) top-down democracy were in Yugoslavia along with all of the Leninist models.

[Bud Struggle]

Waste of time imo.


Like hell it's a waste of time. It is the SOUL of what Communism looks like in 2010.

This "hard liquor" brand of Communism has to end for anything to succeed. Any Communism that considers you and me as ideological "brothers" is missing a valuable point of success.

[Red Poplar]

That being said, Titos Yugoslavia was somewhat democratic than other "communist" states, mainly due to worker self management, but still political repression and (at least on the federal level) top-down democracy were in Yugoslavia along with all of the Leninist models.

That's correct, Yugoslavs were allowed to freely travel, and even work abroad. Border controls were loose, especially in the late period. You were more or less allowed to talk about what you wanted, even sex, you just had to be careful about politics. Directors and other important people could be "undermined" if they went to churches.

Oh, I and forgot the music - which was, I must admit, among the best in Europe at the time, especially New wave bands. Wanna hear some?

[Kiev Communard]

Like hell it's a waste of time. It is the SOUL of what Communism looks like in 2010.

Unfortunately, you are right, my left-Liberal friend :D. However, there are some people who try to address this very problem, for instance: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/.

It was published in 1993 and almost completely lacks any kind of "retro-Communism", so widespread in many leftist circles. I would like to hope that this is how Communism should have looked like in 2010.

[Dean]

We are all aware that JB Tito deserves a lot of credit for his effort against fascism - he organized one of the strongest anti-fascist movements of the WWII, annexed Istria and Dalmatia and turned Yugoslavia from a country of "horses, donkeys and beef" to a modern, industrialized force. He considered himself and his party as communist, however was he a Communist in practice?

What do you think, was his split with Stalin and the Comintern, then his non-aligned approach justified? Was his pan-Yugoslav movement a result of the will for national liberation, or left-wing nationalism? Since as far as I know, Communism and left-wing nationalism are not compatible. Some of his policies are also incompatible with Communist views, such as his opposition to homosexuality and abortion (which he finally legalized in 1974 and 1978 respectively, willing to make SFRY more liberal). In short, do you see Tito as a positive or negative character among the Communists, and why?

I don't know how to measure his character for communism. That would involve a lot of studies and knowledge in reference to his policies and how they ultimately affected class consciousness.

That said, the whole question "was x leader a 'true' communist?" is a terrible one. One can be a true communist and implement terrible policies - be they politically tactless, repressive or reactionary.

What we should assess are different policies.

[RGacky3]

This "hard liquor" brand of Communism has to end for anything to succeed.

Socialism in the real world for the most part just ignores the Stalin guys.

Socialism in the real world can be found at things like the social-forum, the new radical union movements, the third world solidarity movements, community organizing, National types like Bolivarianism, and there are tons more, no one really pays attention to the Lenin types, they have some pull in areas where you have a strong maoist movement, but even those are dying or trying to get some democratic appeal.

[Kiev Communard]

One can be a true communist and implement terrible policies - be they politically tactless, repressive or reactionary.

What we should assess are different policies.

Yes, you hit the mark here. Many people here tend to believe that if a political leader "follows the correct ideological line", he will never commit any mistakes (even tactical), while this is evidently untrue. Stalin might sincerely believe that he was overseeing the construction of socialism, while in objective reality he presided over the historically necessary, but non-socialist per se processes of Industropolitarist (i.e. state industrialist) modernization of USSR. That said, his conviction of his "correctness" (and even "objectively progressive" character of his policies) can do nothing to absolve him from the responsibility from his actions.

[Bud Struggle]

Socialism in the real world for the most part just ignores the Stalin guys.

Socialism in the real world can be found at things like the social-forum, the new radical union movements, the third world solidarity movements, community organizing, National types like Bolivarianism, and there are tons more, no one really pays attention to the Lenin types, they have some pull in areas where you have a strong maoist movement, but even those are dying or trying to get some democratic appeal.

Maybe. But I'm here on RevLeft.

Listen, This is COMMUNISM in the REAL WORLD:

Kim Jong Il named general secretary of DPRK ruling party at crucial conference
September 28, 2010

Top leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) Kim Jong Il was named general secretary of the ruling Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK) at a crucial conference on Tuesday.

Describing it a joyous occasion for the whole country, the official KCNA said the nomination shows an absolute support for and confidence in the top leader by the party and people.

The conference, the first in 44 years, was expected to elect the party’s highest leading body.

According to the charter of the ruling WPK, the delegates can discuss and decide the line, policies and personnel changes of the party during such a conference.

On Monday, Kim Jong Il issued an order promoting his son Kim Jong Un and several commanding officers to the rank of general. Kim Kyong Hui, Choe Ryong Hae and three others from the ruling party were promoted to general at the same time.

The order also gave the rank of colonel general to Ryu Kyong, lieutenant general to Ro Hung Se, Ri Tu Song and four others, and the rank of major general to Jo Kyong Jun, Jang To Yong and Mun Jong Chol and 24 others.

Also on Monday, Ri Yong Ho, chief of KPA General Staff, was awarded the military rank of Vice Marshal of the Korean People’s Army on Monday by a decision of the National Defence Commission.

The delayed conference, which was originally slated for early September, was widely expected to produce strong influence for the whole country’s future.

[Dean]

Maybe. But I'm here on RevLeft.

Listen, This is COMMUNISM in the REAL WORLD:

Kim Jong Il named general secretary of DPRK ruling party at crucial conference
September 28, 2010

Top leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) Kim Jong Il was named general secretary of the ruling Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK) at a crucial conference on Tuesday.

Describing it a joyous occasion for the whole country, the official KCNA said the nomination shows an absolute support for and confidence in the top leader by the party and people.

The conference, the first in 44 years, was expected to elect the party’s highest leading body.

According to the charter of the ruling WPK, the delegates can discuss and decide the line, policies and personnel changes of the party during such a conference.

On Monday, Kim Jong Il issued an order promoting his son Kim Jong Un and several commanding officers to the rank of general. Kim Kyong Hui, Choe Ryong Hae and three others from the ruling party were promoted to general at the same time.

The order also gave the rank of colonel general to Ryu Kyong, lieutenant general to Ro Hung Se, Ri Tu Song and four others, and the rank of major general to Jo Kyong Jun, Jang To Yong and Mun Jong Chol and 24 others.

Also on Monday, Ri Yong Ho, chief of KPA General Staff, was awarded the military rank of Vice Marshal of the Korean People’s Army on Monday by a decision of the National Defence Commission.

The delayed conference, which was originally slated for early September, was widely expected to produce strong influence for the whole country’s future.

N Korea does not consider itself communist (ideologically or materially).

[Red Poplar]

Kim Jong Il named general secretary of DPRK ruling party at crucial conference
September 28, 2010

North Koreans rule. They don't have AIDS, they don't eat shitty, unhealthy food, they ain't obsessed with consumerism, they have one-party democratic elections... The media often spreads shit about them being a totalitarianism, but I'm not sure about that, the only sure thing known about their lifestyle is told by the refugees and emigrants, and you can't expect them to ever tell something good. Although their country seems a bit like a socialist monarchy, judging by the order of their leaders.

[Bud Struggle]

N Korea does not consider itself communist (ideologically or materially).

It is obviously a monarchy. But you take no responsibility for this mess? Should Capitalist take responsibility for Corporatism?

How's this--you Communists take responsibility for PolPot and we Capitalists take responsibility for WalMart?

[Ele'ill]

Do you ever read the Big Board? It's all about the "good old days." :D

Discussions going on right now in "Learning."

Leon Trotsky's "Permenant Revolution" ?

Why do so many anarchists on here admire Trotsky, considering Kronstadt?

Greatest M-L Leader

Do all M-L support stalin?

Gramsci vs. Bordiga

Yeah, it gets really annoying. Sometimes I wonder if this is a forum for history buffs that just all happen to be leftist.

[Red Poplar]

Yeah, it gets really annoying. Sometimes I wonder if this is a forum for history buffs that just all happen to be leftist.

It took you 2,187 posts to realize that? :w00t:

[Bud Struggle]

It took you 2,187 posts to realize that? :w00t:

She's cute. :wub:

[Red Poplar]

She's cute. :wub:
How do you know it's "she"? :blink:

[Bud Struggle]

How do you know it's "she"? :blink:

Hey, Mari3L, is one of the few "real" women on the forum. She's quite insightful and a pretty nice person.

[Red Poplar]

Hey, Mari3L, is one of the few "real" women on the forum. She's quite insightful and a pretty nice person.

Aaaah, OK then. But you know, of course, that I'm a sexist, so don't get surprised if I say something inappropriate. :cool:

[Ele'ill]

It took you 2,187 posts to realize that? :w00t:


What makes you think that I'm just now realizing it?

[Red Poplar]

What makes you think that I'm just now realizing it?

Refer to my post above. :lol:

[Ele'ill]

Refer to my post above. :lol:

Yeah, so, what makes you think that I'm just now realizing it?

[Red Poplar]

Yeah, so, what makes you think that I'm just now realizing it?

No, not that post, the one below it. I'll quote it since it's obvious that women can't be as skillful on Internet as we men can:


Aaaah, OK then. But you know, of course, that I'm a sexist, so don't get surprised if I say something inappropriate. :cool:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Ele'ill]

No, not that post, the one below it. I'll quote it since it's obvious that women can't be as skillful on Internet as we men can:



:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Yeah, so, what makes you think it took me until now to realize it?

[Red Poplar]

Yeah, so, what makes you think it took me until now to realize it?

Nothing, it's an internal joke, since I was often accused of being sexist here, and sexists often believe that women are a little "slower" when it comes to thinking. Take no offense. :)

[Bud Struggle]

The Admins/Mods are going to have a field day shoveling a lot of the post in these threads into the Trashcan. :D

[Ele'ill]

I'll help you out a little bit here-


How do you know it's "she"? :blink:

Prior to your stupid original post stating it took me 2k posts to ask that question you had no input as to what my gender was- you then got input from Bud. This means you made the original comment without any sexism intended- so basically the original post by you when translated looks something like this-

'Wow, I'm really happy that people are posting in my 2nd thread on this forum- and it hasn't even been deleted or relocated yet! I'll use this opportunity to further enforce the very popular idea that I'm fucking useless by filling the thread with worthless- 'edgy' (:laugh:) , banter.'

This was likely followed by a round of applause that only you could actually hear.

[Red Poplar]

I'll help you out a little bit here-



Prior to your stupid original post stating it took me 2k posts to ask that question you had no input as to what my gender was- you then got input from Bud. This means you made the original comment without any sexism intended- so basically the original post by you when translated looks something like this-

'Wow, I'm really happy that people are posting in my 2nd thread on this forum- and it hasn't even been deleted or relocated yet! I'll use this opportunity to further enforce the very popular idea that I'm fucking useless by filling the thread with worthless- 'edgy' (:laugh:) , banter.'

This was likely followed by a round of applause that only you could actually hear.

Why are you taking this so seriously? I was trying to be serious until I was dumped here in the OI, then I realized that it had no point. As for your post that I quoted - you're right. :blushing:

Happy now?

[Red Poplar]

The Admins/Mods are going to have a field day shoveling a lot of the post in these threads into the Trashcan. :D

They won't. They're starting to love me... :wub:
Besides, shoveling my thread into the trash can would most probably lead to a large-scale mutiny on RevLeft, so they'll have to give it a good thought before doing it. :D

[Ele'ill]

Why are you taking this so seriously? I was trying to be serious until I was dumped here in the OI, then I realized that it had no point. As for your post that I quoted - you're right. :blushing:

Happy now?

Oh I assure you- I'm not taking it very seriously.

Did you expect some other form of reply from me?

[Red Poplar]

Oh I assure you- I'm not taking it very seriously.

Did you expect some other form of reply from me?

Sharp tongue - typically feminine!

[Ele'ill]

They won't. They're starting to love me... :wub:
Besides, shoveling my thread into the trash can would most probably lead to a large-scale mutiny on RevLeft, so they'll have to give it a good thought before doing it. :D

Yes, the mutiny would involve us overthrowing the current mod and admin teams and promptly banning you. :thumbup1:

[Red Poplar]

Hey, Mari3L, is one of the few "real" women on the forum. She's quite insightful and a pretty nice person.

I'd definitely reconsider this statement...

[Ele'ill]

I'd definitely reconsider this statement...

Oh no! You've found one that fights back! Quick! Play victim!

[Red Poplar]

Oh no! You've found one that fights back! Quick! Play victim!

This is childish. Ok, we've had some fun trolling, blah blah, now get back to the kitchen. :laugh:

[Ele'ill]

This is childish. Ok, we've had some fun trolling, blah blah, now get back to the kitchen. :laugh:

So you're not a modern man, eh? Can't cook for yourself? That's pretty childish.

Anything else to further discredit yourself? :thumbup1:

[AK]

Maybe. But I'm here on RevLeft.

Listen, This is COMMUNISM in the REAL WORLD:

Kim Jong Il named general secretary of DPRK ruling party at crucial conference
September 28, 2010

Top leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) Kim Jong Il was named general secretary of the ruling Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK) at a crucial conference on Tuesday.

Describing it a joyous occasion for the whole country, the official KCNA said the nomination shows an absolute support for and confidence in the top leader by the party and people.

The conference, the first in 44 years, was expected to elect the party’s highest leading body.

According to the charter of the ruling WPK, the delegates can discuss and decide the line, policies and personnel changes of the party during such a conference.

On Monday, Kim Jong Il issued an order promoting his son Kim Jong Un and several commanding officers to the rank of general. Kim Kyong Hui, Choe Ryong Hae and three others from the ruling party were promoted to general at the same time.

The order also gave the rank of colonel general to Ryu Kyong, lieutenant general to Ro Hung Se, Ri Tu Song and four others, and the rank of major general to Jo Kyong Jun, Jang To Yong and Mun Jong Chol and 24 others.

Also on Monday, Ri Yong Ho, chief of KPA General Staff, was awarded the military rank of Vice Marshal of the Korean People’s Army on Monday by a decision of the National Defence Commission.

The delayed conference, which was originally slated for early September, was widely expected to produce strong influence for the whole country’s future.
Yes, and I proceeded to troll TVM's thread on the matter.

North Koreans rule. They don't have AIDS, they don't eat shitty, unhealthy food, they ain't obsessed with consumerism, they have one-party democratic elections... The media often spreads shit about them being a totalitarianism, but I'm not sure about that, the only sure thing known about their lifestyle is told by the refugees and emigrants, and you can't expect them to ever tell something good. Although their country seems a bit like a socialist monarchy, judging by the order of their leaders.
Socialist monarchy, eh? Sounds like the least socialist thing imaginable.

[Conquer or Die]

Josip Broz Tito might be the greatest string of rapper names ever.

"Josip slit the wrists of punk police tricks after he called yo mama his b-."

"Broz got the hoez as u know!"

"Tito runs the playa's casino. He know the N- found dead after keno."

As for killing fascists - okay, so did Winston Churchill. That's a low bar for worldwide figures - not quite the glorious actions of emaciated jews and POWs truly in the thick of it.

[Red Poplar]

-

[Red Poplar]

So you're not a modern man, eh? Can't cook for yourself? That's pretty childish.

Anything else to further discredit yourself? :thumbup1:

I was sarcastic.

sarcasm =
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark

The point of my first post was, honestly, to imply that many people here, especially more influential ones, don't act particularly leftishly. That's what I meant, I didn't actually mean to attract attention, as you thought. Although when Bud suggested that you were female, I joked about sexism, since I've often been accused of being sexist here, the problem is your lack of any sense of humour whatsoever. I even apologized to you, in case you took offense, but you obviously didn't, you just feel the irresistible urge to play smartass.

[RGacky3]

Maybe. But I'm here on RevLeft.

Listen, This is COMMUNISM in the REAL WORLD:


No its not, theres nothing communistic or even socialistic about it.


It is obviously a monarchy. But you take no responsibility for this mess? Should Capitalist take responsibility for Corporatism?

How's this--you Communists take responsibility for PolPot and we Capitalists take responsibility for WalMart?

Corporatism is part of the capitalist world, corporotism is free market and private ownership and property laws, thats capitalism.

Socialism is worker control and a democratic economy, PolPot was'nt even close to that, neither was North Korea.

So no.

[RGacky3]

She's cute. :wub:

Do maniquins give you wood?

[Lt. Ferret]

No its not, theres nothing communistic or even socialistic about it.



Corporatism is part of the capitalist world, corporotism is free market and private ownership and property laws, thats capitalism.

Socialism is worker control and a democratic economy, PolPot was'nt even close to that, neither was North Korea.

So no.


corporatism is state run syndicalism. not free market anything, or anything to do with private property.

[Bright Banana Beard]

corporatism is state run syndicalism. not free market anything, or anything to do with private property.
the problem is, corporation isn't form by the government, they are run by the entirely different organization, thus they are depending on each other.

[Kiev Communard]

corporatism is state run syndicalism. not free market anything, or anything to do with private property.

Actiually the corporatists themselves thought otherwise:


From the 1850s onward progressive corporatism rose in response to classical liberalism and Marxism.[14] These corporatists supported providing group rights to members of the middle classes and working classes in order to secure class harmony.[14] This was in opposition to the Marxist conception of class conflict.[14] By the 1870s and 1880s, corporatism experienced a revival in Europe with the creation of workers' unions that were committed to class harmony and negotiations with employers.[14]

Ferdinand Tönnies in his work Gemeinschaft und Gesellschaft ("Community and Society") of 1887 marked a major revival of corporatist thinking including sparking the rise of Neo-medievalism, rise of support for guild socialism, and causing major changes in the field of sociology.[29] Tönnies claims that organic communities based upon clans, communes, families, and professional groups are disrupted by the mechanical society of economic classes imposed by capitalism.[29] The Nazis used Tönnies' theory to promote their notion of Volksgemeinschaft ("people's community").[30] However Tönnies opposed Nazism and joined the Social Democratic Party of Germany in 1932 to oppose the rise of fascism in Germany and was stripped of his honorary professorship by Adolf Hitler in 1933.[31]

Sociologist Émile Durkheim advocated a form of corporatism called "solidarism" that advocated creating an organic social solidarity of society through functional representation.[32] Solidarism was based upon Durkheim's view that human society as a collective is distinct in dynamic from the dynamic of an individual in that society is what places upon individuals their cultural and social attributes.[33]

Durkheim claimed that in the economy, solidarism would alter the division of labour by changing it from the mechanical solidarity to organic solidarity.[32] Durkheim claimed that the existing industrial capitalist division of labour caused "juridical and moral anomie" which had no norms, agreed rules, or frameworks to resolve conflicts resulting in a confrontational divide between employers and trade unions.[32] Durkheim believed that this anomie caused social dislocation and claimed that under this "[i]t is the law of the strongest which rules, and there is inevitably a chronic state of war, latent or acute".[32] As a result, Durkheim claimed it is a moral obligation of the members of society to end this state of war by creating a moral organic solidarity based upon professions as organized into a single public institution.[34]

The creation of liberal corporatism has been traced back to English liberal philosopher John Stuart Mill who spoke of corporatist-like economic associations as needing to "predominate" in society to create equality for labourers and give them a voice in management through economic democracy.[35] Unlike a number of other forms of corporatism, liberal corporatism does not reject capitalism or individualism, but believes that the capitalist firm is a social institution that requires its managers to go beyond achieving the bottom line, by recognizing the needs of their members.[36]

This liberal corporatist ethic is similar to Taylorism but calls for democratization of the capitalist firm.[36] Liberal corporatists believe that inclusion of all members in the election of management brings them into the process of management and in effect "reconcile ethics and efficiency, freedom and order, liberty and rationality".[36] Liberal corporatism began to gain adherents in the United States in the late 19th century.[14]

Liberal corporatism was an influential component of the Progressivism in the United States that has been referred to as "interest group liberalism".[37] The support by U.S. labour movement leaders' advocacy of liberal corporatism of the U.S. progressives is believed to have been influenced by an attraction to the syndicalism and particularly the anarcho-syndicalism at the time in Europe.[37] In the United States, economic corporatism involving capital-labour cooperation was influential in the New Deal economic program of the United States in the 1930s as well as in Fordism and Keynesianism.[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Corporatism_in_politics_and_political_ economy

They were not against private property or capitalism, just against their "excesses" (mainly on moralistic grounds).

[RGacky3]

corporatism is state run syndicalism. not free market anything, or anything to do with private property.

Look up syndicalism in the dictionary then come back.

But corporatism IS the outcome of free markets and private property, people with property will use their control of the market to get more property, then they'll use the power that comes with that property to make the enviroment better for their profit.

Capitalism nessesarily leads to corporatism, when companies get money and power, what do you expect them to do? Not take over the political process because they are such swell guys?

[Ele'ill]

I was sarcastic.

sarcasm =
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark

So how I responded was extremely appropriate. Thanks Red Obvious.



The point of my first post was, honestly, to imply that many people here, especially more influential ones, don't act particularly leftishly. That's what I meant, I didn't actually mean to attract attention, as you thought.


It took you 2,187 posts to realize that? :w00t:

Right.


Although when Bud suggested that you were female, I joked about sexism,

Joking about sexism implies that you talked about sexism itself- you didn't- you made a sexist comment.


since I've often been accused of being sexist here, the problem is your lack of any sense of humour whatsoever.

I have a sense of humor- as I demonstrated with said posts.



I even apologized to you, in case you took offense, but you obviously didn't, you just feel the irresistible urge to play smartass.

No, I beat you at the game you started.

[Bud Struggle]

I'd definitely reconsider this statement... She IS sweet. Mari3L just is not a dainty little buttercup that stammers and blushes everytime someone speaks to her.

She's a real woman.

[Ele'ill]

Even though Red Poplar started all of this- they're correct when they said in a vague and round about way that this gender polarization is uneeded- especially in this thread- my gender and the genders of every user on this forum are irrelevant and ultimately unprovable. I could be male and I could be female- I could be both. I'm comfortable with all identities.

















Spoiler- I am none of the above- I am an Orca.

[Bud Struggle]

Spoiler- I am none of the above- I am an Orca.

Just because you put on a few pounds doesn't mean you have to call yourself a wha----------------OOPS!:blushing: :laugh:

[Red Poplar]

Joking about sexism implies that you talked about sexism itself- you didn't- you made a sexist comment.

Well done. Winning a word game against someone from a non-English-speaking country, that takes some doing.


No, I beat you at the game you started.

I'm so humiliated. :blushing:


She IS sweet. Mari3L just is not a dainty little buttercup that stammers and blushes everytime someone speaks to her.

She's a real woman.

Why do you think that a "dainty little buttercup that stammers and blushes everytime someone speaks to her" is my definition of an ideal woman? Oh, right, I forgot I'm sexist. :)

But seriously, from what I've seen here, a woman like Mari3L isn't really a type of woman I would date. Too much sarcasm and negative energy for me, I don't like that, I like hanging out with cheerful people, the same goes with women. But hey, everyone has a different taste.


Even though Red Poplar started all of this- they're correct when they said in a vague and round about way that this gender polarization is uneeded- especially in this thread

Of course - this was supposed to be a thread about Tito. He was a man though, but the discussion wasn't (supposed to be) about his gender anyway.

[RGacky3]

But seriously, from what I've seen here, a woman like Mari3L isn't really a type of woman I would date. Too much sarcasm and negative energy for me, I don't like that, I like hanging out with cheerful people, the same goes with women. But hey, everyone has a different taste.


Just because you put on a few pounds doesn't mean you have to call yourself a wha----------------OOPS!:blushing: :laugh:


She IS sweet. Mari3L just is not a dainty little buttercup that stammers and blushes everytime someone speaks to her.

She's a real woman.

This is just stupid.


the problem is your lack of any sense of humour whatsoever. I even apologized to you, in case you took offense, but you obviously didn't, you just feel the irresistible urge to play smartass.

If your gonna joke about sexism or whatever, make sure your funny first, because if your not funny, you'll just come off like a douch bag.

[Red Poplar]

This is just stupid.

If your gonna joke about sexism or whatever, make sure your funny first, because if your not funny, you'll just come off like a douch bag.

I agree, we should get over with this pointless chat and get back ontopic.


Here is a popular revolutionary song "Through the woods and hills", with pictures of Tito and his partisans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AEvrzwjO8

Another tribute song to Tito, with the video footage of a JNA military parade in 1975:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Q9QvNCJlU

[Tavarisch_Mike]

"Po sumama i gorama" is just great :thumbup1:

[Red Poplar]

"Po sumama i gorama" is just great :thumbup1:

Yeah, I agree. Do you know the meaning of the lyrics?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

No i dont speak sero-crotia(?) but i know its about the brave partisans and theire fight against fascism, they do describe the terrain very much, such as mountains, rivers and so, dont they?

[Red Poplar]

No i dont speak sero-crotia(?) but i know its about the brave partisans and theire fight against fascism, they do describe the terrain very much, such as mountains, rivers and so, dont they?

The official languages in SFRY were Serbian and Croatian (two languages, although they're very similar, so some called their merger Serbo-Croatian), this song is in pure Croatian. Here goes my more-or-less accurate translation:

Through the woods and hills of our proud homeland,
Groups of partisans are marching, spreading the glory of our fight.
Let our hated enemy know, a bloody war is ongoing,
We shall rather die than give away our land.
We shall punish the traitors, set our nation free,
And show the entire world how tough fights are fought...

And the final line: "The land on which Tito's army marches can call itself united."

[Bud Struggle]

This is just stupid.

If your gonna joke about sexism or whatever, make sure your funny first, because if your not funny, you'll just come off like a douch bag.

Over all (besides for me and Robert of course) Anarchists have the best sense of humor on RevLeft. That being said Gack--in this particular area you definitely fall into the Stalinists ranks.

You might think about changing your political affiliation.

[RGacky3]

I come to revleft to discuss socialism, my sense of humor other places :).

[Bud Struggle]

I come to revleft to discuss socialism, my sense of humor other places :).

That's why you might make a good straight man.

Because there is s REALLY GOOD comeback here. :D

[matevz91]

Yes, of course he is. Before him, we were nothing (we as Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Muslims, ...). With him we became a world power.

[Bud Struggle]

Yes, of course he is. Before him, we were nothing (we as Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Muslims, ...). With him we became a world power.

I have a feeling you are marching around and singing some patriotic some as you are posting this. :)

[RGacky3]

Yes, of course he is. Before him, we were nothing (we as Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Muslims, ...). With him we became a world power.

Wait becoming a world power makes you socialist????

[matevz91]

Wait becoming a world power makes you socialist????

No, of course not. :) They argued in eastern European + Soviet press whether we were socialist between 1948 and 1955.

Khrushchev finally reproached us in 1955, therefore stating that we were friends and belonged to the socialist commonwealth.
In 1970 when his memoirs were published he admitted that they even believed their own lies, because what you repeat for enough long, you start to believe that. When they came to Yugoslavia all suspicions were dropped off.

He even tried to copy some of our ideas (like development of tourism, ...).

But Yugoslavia was always something special:

- it was the leader of the non-aligned block (primarily decolonized countries)
- towards world politics it behaved in a special way
- it had a different socialist system from the USSR
- it was trying to be self-depended

I hope that I have not forgotten anything.

[Red Poplar]

I have a feeling you are marching around and singing some patriotic some as you are posting this. :)

I dunno about our Slovenian comrade - but we (Croats) have celebrated our Independence Day today - 8 October. So, patriotic songs were inevitable. Živjela Hrvatska! :D

[Bud Struggle]

I dunno about our Slovenian comrade - but we (Croats) have celebrated our Independence Day today - 8 October. So, patriotic songs were inevitable. Živjela Hrvatska! :D


Not a bad tune. I could dance to that one. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frA5bv24gNI

Happy Independence day! Have a beer on me.

[Red Poplar]

Not a bad tune. I could dance to that one. :)

Listen to this one, it's my favourite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRW_rT1v3I

Here are the lyrics in English:
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/ruza-hrvatska-croatian-rose.html


Happy Independence day! Have a beer on me.

Thanks, mate. I appreciate it. :)

[Jozz]

May I add that Tito was, actually, a proleterian? He was a metal worker, he fought against the burgouasie and imperialism until the beginning of World War 2.

His fight against capitalism is really inspiring, and there is so much to say about it. I can write a long post about it, but since I doubt anyone will read it, I will not.

If you do want me to do it, I will.

Also, when he was arrested, because he was a communist, he said to the judge:

"I admit that I am a member of the illegal communist party of Yugoslavia [Then Kingdom of Yugoslavia], I admit that I worked on the propaganda of the communist idea, I showed the world all of the injustice which were done to the proletariat. But, I do not approve [approve and admit are the same in Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian] the burgouasie court, because I consider myself responsible only to my Communist party."

Original quote:
"Priznajem, da sam član ilegalne komunističke partije Jugoslavije, priznajem da sam radio na propagandi ideje komunizma; prikazivao sam proletarima sve nepravde koja im se čini. Ne priznajem, međutim, buržoaski sud, jer se smatram odgovornim samo svojoj komunističkoj partiji"

So yes, if you want me to, I really can write about his fight against capitalism, fascism, and how he created Socialist Yugoslavia.

[Red Poplar]

May I add that Tito was, actually, a proleterian? He was a metal worker, he fought against the burgouasie and imperialism until the beginning of World War 2.

His fight against capitalism is really inspiring, and there is so much to say about it. I can write a long post about it, but since I doubt anyone will read it, I will not.

If you do want me to do it, I will.

Also, when he was arrested, because he was a communist, he said to the judge:

"I admit that I am a member of the illegal communist party of Yugoslavia [Then Kingdom of Yugoslavia], I admit that I worked on the propaganda of the communist idea, I showed the world all of the injustice which were done to the proletariat. But, I do not approve [approve and admit are the same in Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian] the burgouasie court, because I consider myself responsible only to my Communist party."

Original quote:
"Priznajem, da sam član ilegalne komunističke partije Jugoslavije, priznajem da sam radio na propagandi ideje komunizma; prikazivao sam proletarima sve nepravde koja im se čini. Ne priznajem, međutim, buržoaski sud, jer se smatram odgovornim samo svojoj komunističkoj partiji"

So yes, if you want me to, I really can write about his fight against capitalism, fascism, and how he created Socialist Yugoslavia.


That's a very interesting quote, I remember it from a documentary film about him. I'd like to read about Tito's fight against capitalism, especially from the economic point of view, so write... :)

And by the way, I've noticed that this is your first post, so welcome aboard! Which of the six Republics do you come from?

[Jozz]

I come from Bosnia :)

And, I really can't write about him now, since I only now saw your post. And I have to go now since I gotta get up early tommorow :P

But I'll do it tommorow - promise :D

[Red Poplar]

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[Jozz]

Sloboda narodu :)

Oh, and thanks for your welcoming. I had an account a year ago, I think, but I never posted anything, but I forgot the password, lol. (and I couldn't get the reset the passoword email).

[Jozz]

Sorry comrade sbecause it took me so long.. I didn't had time the past days, and I promise I'll do it as soon as I can. :D

[Ivan Jansa]

Oh, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one from Bosnia here! :D even though I live in Sweden at the moment (I visit every year or so) :(
In any case I believe that Tito was a communist and a socialist who did many good things (like gave Bosnia its national identity and has done much for industrialisation of the entire country). Sadly the internal strife (JLA Security Service versus UDBA/SDB) and the foreign subversive activities (both from the CIA/Western services and the Eastern intelligence services) tore our country apart and drowned it in a spiral of blood and violence. Most of my family died in Srebrenica in the nineties with my family moving out right in the nick of time. It wasn't Tito's fault that the foreigners and power hungry secret service members took over.

[Red Poplar]

Sorry comrade sbecause it took me so long.. I didn't had time the past days, and I promise I'll do it as soon as I can. :D

No need to hurry, comrade, we can wait. :)



Oh, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one from Bosnia here! :D even though I live in Sweden at the moment (I visit every year or so) :(

You can judge by my avatar where I am from. :)


In any case I believe that Tito was a communist and a socialist who did many good things (like gave Bosnia its national identity and has done much for industrialisation of the entire country). Sadly the internal strife (JLA Security Service versus UDBA/SDB) and the foreign subversive activities (both from the CIA/Western services and the Eastern intelligence services) tore our country apart and drowned it in a spiral of blood and violence. Most of my family died in Srebrenica in the nineties with my family moving out right in the nick of time. It wasn't Tito's fault that the foreigners and power hungry secret service members took over.


I'm really sorry to hear that. :( Fortunately, my family survived entirely.

I agree though that foreign agencies tore apart Yugoslavia, they didn't like the fact that it was growing strong an they saw it as a threat. Now, instead of a superpower, we have six small countries being fucked up by EU. I hope better times will come. :glare:

[ComradeMan]

Ivan Jansa - that is really terrible and I am sorry to hear that.
& Red Poplar. Many people here can only imagine what you and your peoples must have gone through in their worst nightmares and it should serve as a wake up call to some others perhaps when they become judgemental and ideological.

[Red Poplar]

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[Ivan Jansa]

Really, your father was a general? Wow! :)

I don't remember much of what was going on in those times anymore, the last thing I remember was leaving for Sweden from Slovenia (my father managed to get us to Croatia and finally to Slovenia with the help of one of his friends). We spent a short time there before we moved on and I usually try to avoid discussion about the war.

[Red Poplar]

Really, your father was a general? Wow! :)

I don't remember much of what was going on in those times anymore, the last thing I remember was leaving for Sweden from Slovenia (my father managed to get us to Croatia and finally to Slovenia with the help of one of his friends). We spent a short time there before we moved on and I usually try to avoid discussion about the war.


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[Ivan Jansa]

That's awesome :D

Which battles did he participate in? Was he also fighting in Bosnia?

[Red Poplar]

That's awesome :D

Which battles did he participate in? Was he also fighting in Bosnia?


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