War on Afghanistan

[MrCharizma]

Okay, so basically I've realised I know absolutely nothing about the situation in Afghanistan. I was wondering if some kind comrades could help me out on this subject.
Help would range from statistics on casualties, both Afghan and NATO.
As well as some opinions (with evidence/reasons) on why should/shouldn't we be there. It seems to be a 'hot' topic around me and I would like to be best equipped with information if an argument were to come my way.

Thanks in advance,

[Adil3tr]

Democracy Now! (http://www.democracynow.org/) is Probably the best source for the day to day update.

Basiclly we invaded 9 years ago to catch terrorists, decided we didnlt tlike the government of terrorists we put in, so we overthrew them and killed thousands of civilians. For nine years our soldiers sat there there while bush went on escapades around the middle east, and now Obama is trying to fight the war in pretty much the same way, but on a larger scale.
I think the basic opinion of us is that if Reagan hadn't trained and funded terrorists in the first place to fight communists in Afghanistan, it wouldn't be a shithole now.

[Jayshin_JTTH]

Good Guys:

Landless peasants and rural poor:
Taliban (pashtun sunni national-liberation movement fighting to get rid of the Americans)

Bad Guys:

International capital, American imperialism, warlords, drug barons, various other scum.



What would be really good is a communist analysis piece of the whole conflict. And no, I don't mean some left-sectarian hitjob, I mean an actual anti-imperialist analysis.

[Catillina]

Good Guys:


Taliban (pashtun sunni national-liberation movement fighting to get rid of the Americans)



Wooo, I don't think that the taliban are good guys, we don't have to support them. They are fundemantelists&feudalists, even if they fight the invaders...

[Nolan]

Good Guys:

Landless peasants and rural poor:
Taliban (pashtun sunni national-liberation movement fighting to get rid of the Americans)

Bad Guys:

International capital, American imperialism, warlords, drug barons, various other scum.



What would be really good is a communist analysis piece of the whole conflict. And no, I don't mean some left-sectarian hitjob, I mean an actual anti-imperialist analysis.

It's not so black and white. The Taliban couldn't remotely be called "good guys."

[Jayshin_JTTH]

It's not so black and white. The Taliban couldn't remotely be called "good guys."
It was somewhat intentional, but from what I have read what the 'Taliban' is today isn't what is was pre-01.

[Vampire Lobster]

It was somewhat intentional, but from what I have read what the 'Taliban' is today isn't what is was pre-01.

I'd really want to see this stuff you've been reading. I, for one, haven't seen any signs of them not being essentially the same bunch of violent thugs than they used to be. Them now fighting Americans in addition to any attempt to modernize Afganistan doesn't change anything. They are reactionary and they would be extremely hostile to any sort of leftist movements in Afghanistan.

I'm ready to some extent support national liberation movements that aren't precisely Marxist, but if they actually behead Marxists...

Well no.

[Scary Monster]

Guys, there is nothing remotely good about the Taliban.

First of all, the taliban were formed from members of the Mujahideen, which was the unpopular Islamic fundamentalist militant group (which were also made up largely of foreign Muslims) that wanted to wage a jihad against the modernization of Afghanistan during the 80's under the communist government. Afghanistan during this time allowed its women to dress like western women and allowed them to have political positions and higher education, as well as ridding religious influences from political processes. The US, UK and China (which i never considered communist) gave training, billions in funds, arms and heavy weapons (including main battle tanks, stinger missles, etc.) to the Mujahideen. The Afghan government then requested Soviet military aid.

With the war becoming too costly for the Soviets, they pulled out in '89. Thus Afghanistan became overrun by the Mujahideen with the help of Pakistan in 1992. The mujahideen even fought amongst themselves. Out of the uncoordinated Mujahideen came the Taliban, which took power with the help of, once again, Pakistan.

So in short, the US and the west does not give a shit about the Afghan people. The US only wants hegemony in the middle east to have unhindered access to natural resources, bases from which to launch attacks against maybe Iran and control it, which is THE imperialist dream, with its direct access to the Caspian sea oil reserves, as well as maintaing their image of a powerful empire you dont wanna mess with. They overthrow a popular, progressive government for being communist, and put into place a puppet government made of religious extremists and warlords, which Karzai admits himself! Its a cycle- the US creates a monster to fight the monster they originally created, which is the same story for many other countries they are involved in.

[Psy]

Democracy Now! (http://www.democracynow.org/) is Probably the best source for the day to day update.

Basiclly we invaded 9 years ago to catch terrorists, decided we didnlt tlike the government of terrorists we put in, so we overthrew them and killed thousands of civilians. For nine years our soldiers sat there there while bush went on escapades around the middle east, and now Obama is trying to fight the war in pretty much the same way, but on a larger scale.
I think the basic opinion of us is that if Reagan hadn't trained and funded terrorists in the first place to fight communists in Afghanistan, it wouldn't be a shithole now.
Yhea but even if Reagan hadn't trained the funded the terrorists there is a good chance the US would still have invaded.

[khad]

Guys, there is nothing remotely good about the Taliban.

First of all, the taliban were formed from members of the Mujahideen,
The Taliban was formed from the children in the refugee camps, probably the ones that the mujahideen were targeting for rape during their holy jihad. The whole practice of child prostitution was revived in the refugee camps and was carried back into Afghanistan by the mujahideen.

This is just to clarify the history. The Taliban are not the mujahideen. The mujahideen are the Northern Alliance which currently holds power.

[Adil3tr]

Why don't we bring the Saurs back?

[AK]

Good Guys:

Taliban (pashtun sunni national-liberation movement fighting to get rid of the Americans)
You're a funny guy.

[WeAreReborn]

Scary monster summed it up quite well, and obviously the Taliban aren't leftist at all. But another interesting fact is that Reagen met with the Taliban leaders in the '80s in the White House and respected them, and probably their extreme reactionary views. So America is using the excuse of "liberating" them but all America is doing is getting rid of the reactionary party, who would keep their countries resources to themselves, to make way for a "democracy" so that the American government and big business can exploit all their resources and ruin yet another countries economy. Yay imperialism!

[MrCharizma]

Oh I see I see, thanks to all of you for the information,especially Scary Monster.

I'm curious though, I was watching a show Q&A about this topic and well it seemed that there was one thing that kept being repeated, (mainly by this idiotic widow) about how it was so unsafe for children and civilians to walk around the streets, as there are landmines and other things which randomly blow up and so on.
Is this a serious issue? Is it large scale? etc etc, I'm just wondering if these sorts of things are at all what the US attempt to get rid of.

And are the taliban really that bad?
What sort of things do they do and why haven't they been overruled yet? 'Democracy' always seems to amaze me...

[Fulanito de Tal]

I heard Immortal Technique say that one reason people join the Taliban is because they offer them more than if they tried to survive on their own. That says to me...

- We're not offering Afghans anything better
- We're killing their only opportunity to better themselves

If we wanted to help the Afghans, we would provide resources to help them empower themselves and not join the Taliban. Otherwise, I feel we're being American (aka hypocritical).

[#FF0000]

Afghans hate the shit out of the US and the Taliban.

[thecoffeecake1]

Good Guys:

Landless peasants and rural poor:
Taliban (pashtun sunni national-liberation movement fighting to get rid of the Americans)

Bad Guys:

International capital, American imperialism, warlords, drug barons, various other scum.



What would be really good is a communist analysis piece of the whole conflict. And no, I don't mean some left-sectarian hitjob, I mean an actual anti-imperialist analysis.
the taliban, along with all islamic extremists, are pretty much out against anything different than them, any outside influence, women in public, that sorta stuff. as leftists, and i know i usually hate when people put us all under the umbrella when it comes to common beliefs, we oppose this ideology. they are not for progression, they are looking to keep they're old ways and kill anything that interferes. you shouldv strolled through afghanistan when the taliban had power, i don't think you'd still believe they're the "good guys"

NOW, before I start hearing wtfs wrong with you, imperialism, imperialism, imperialism, listen. I do not support US presence in Afghanistan, at the same time, I know they're not there forcing western ideals and trying to colonize the place..

Your just another pretentious America hater that believes any enemy of America is a friend of the working man or something. That's ridiculous, you're ridiculous, case closed.

So in conclusion...

Taliban - BAD
Islamic Extremism - BAD
American Presence - BAD

[MrCharizma]

So in conclusion...

Taliban - BAD
Islamic Extremism - BAD
American Presence - BAD

Okay, so I kind of get the gist of it now, thanks.
But having said what you said, what, in your opinion, is the solution?
If the Taliban is as bad as you say, and America is bad; what do we do?

[AK]

Okay, so I kind of get the gist of it now, thanks.
But having said what you said, what, in your opinion, is the solution?
If the Taliban is as bad as you say, and America is bad; what do we do?
We can only hope for an immediate withdrawal for the hostilities to cease.

[El Rojo]

stop the war coalition, a UK anti war group, have loadsa news/analysis docs on thier website

[thecoffeecake1]

Okay, so I kind of get the gist of it now, thanks.
But having said what you said, what, in your opinion, is the solution?
If the Taliban is as bad as you say, and America is bad; what do we do?

what needs to happen is that afghanistan has to stabilize itself so it can handle terrorism itself. as of now, afghani stability is completely dependent on American forces, if they were to pull out, the country falls to extremism, almost immediately.

this is what should happen. the UN should have legitimate forces to deal with things like this, things like muslim extremism, genocide, that sort of stuff, stuff that has to be stopped but is no ones responsibility outside whatever country its taking place in. this is a good example, terrorism in this form needs to be stopped, but not by the united states, not their responsibility.

[Psy]

Okay, so I kind of get the gist of it now, thanks.
But having said what you said, what, in your opinion, is the solution?
If the Taliban is as bad as you say, and America is bad; what do we do?

What is needed is a massive industrialization and proletariatiation of Afghanistan as the ruling classes of Afghanistan are not performing their progressive role of up rooting the obsolete modes of production in Afganistan and centrializing Afganistan workers. The Taliban would quickly become a relic of a bygon era if most in Afganistan leave their villages to work in new mines and boom towns that sell commodities to miners, this would also mean Afgantian would actual start down the road of being able to have significant worker revolutions.