Esperanto

[Adil3tr]

Does anyone here know much about Esperanto?

[Weezer]

Esperanto estas revolucia lingvo.

[Lolshevik]

Esperanto estas suficxe bona... sed, gxi estas pli bona al lerni aliaj lingvo ke vi povas uzi en real life.

[graymouser]

Esperanto estas suficxe bona... sed, gxi estas pli bona al lerni aliaj lingvo ke vi povas uzi en real life.
Certe jes, sed Esperanto estas pli facila ol naciaj lingvoj. Mi pensas ke en la estonteco la venonta internacio povos uzi Esperanton por grandaj kongresoj ktp.

Sed nunaj revoluciistoj devas lerni la Hispanan (en Usono) aux aliaj lingvoj de premitaj grupoj.

[Lolshevik]

From what of that I understood, I agree. Perhaps I'd get a hold of Spanish better (I'm currently struggling and all my fiancee's hispanophonic relatives hate me so no opportunity for practice there) if I took another crack at esperanto first.

[Crux]

One of my teachers is an esperantist, I took a one week course, but I am afraid I don't remember much. It was a very easy language to learn though, I remember. Still have the dictionary around here somewhere.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Mi parola esperanto. At leat i wish that i can say soo one day, Esperanto is cool it would be nice if the International labour movement took up the idea of an internationalist language.

[Crux]

Mi parola esperanto. At leat i wish that i can say soo one day, Esperanto is cool it would be nice if the International labour movement took up the idea of an internationalist language.
Again, you mean. I am afraid the glory days of the esperantists are behind them. A shame really.

[graymouser]

For anyone who didn't get that...

Certe jes, sed Esperanto estas pli facila ol naciaj lingvoj.

Certainly yes, but Esperanto is easier than national languages.

Mi pensas ke en la estonteco la venonta internacio povos uzi Esperanton por grandaj kongresoj ktp.

I think that in the future the coming international could use Esperanto for large congresses etc.

Sed nunaj revoluciistoj devas lerni la Hispanan (en Usono) aux aliaj lingvoj de premitaj grupoj.

But modern revolutionaries should learn Spanish (in the US) or other languages of oppressed groups.

[Lolshevik]

Hell, I think *Current* internationals should use Esperanto.

[Q]

Hell, I think *Current* internationals should use Esperanto.

That would make worldcongresses, international summerschools, etc 100% more efficient in one go as translations are cut out :D

[Crux]

That would make worldcongresses, international summerschools, etc 100% more efficient in one go as translations are cut out :D
Assuming everyone in the room understands enough esperanto to understand the speaker.

[Adil3tr]

This will definitely become the global auxiliary language of socialism after the revolution. You can keep your cultural identity, and join the new proletarian culture.

[Adi Shankara]

I dislike Esperanto; it carries a heavy bias towards European rooted vocabulary, phonology, grammatical structure and syntax. It's just another European language really. Nothing truly international about it.

If anything, we should learn a Chinese-based auxiliary language, as it'd be more logical, considering most people speak an asian language related to the Sino-Tibetan family.

[graymouser]

Getting to an intermediate level in Esperanto is fairly easy - making it a very good third language for congresses etc. There are a few problems - the supersigned letters (ĉ ĝ ĥ ĵ ŝ ŭ) are not represented in ASCII and suffer from degradation between encodings in emails etc unless you use the x convention (cx, gx, hx, jx, sx, ux) in writing. There are also grammatical nitpicks, such as the obligatory accusative ending (La knabo ĵetas la pilkon - the boy throws the ball - versus La pilko estas ruĝa - the ball is red), or the agreement of adjectives (La junaj knaboj ĵetas la ruĝajn pilkojn - the young boys throw the red balls). And then there's the problem of sexism, where the language requires a special suffix -in to represent women as opposed to men, so you have knabo for boy and knabino for girl; geknaboj means boys and girls. There's a movement in Esperanto circles called riismo to correct this by using -iĉ for masculine and the unmodified form for unspecified sex, so you have knabiĉo and knabino. (Riismo is named after the epicene pronoun ri that it introduces.)

The problems I discuss above were avoided in Ido, an offshoot language (in both languages, the word "ido" means offspring, so katido is a kitten) that never really gained the same popularity - the number of Esperanto speakers is still estimated between 50,000 and 200,000, while Ido has perhaps 2000 at most. Most of the other attempted languages are smaller than Ido. Interlingua, which is basically an "average Romance" language with many of the finer grammatical points removed, is probably comparable to Ido.

As far as Adi Shankara's point - well, it's not off base, although Esperanto's proponents will point out that its highly agglutinative grammar is probably closer to Turkish than to your average Romance language. This is a debate that has been roiling for years among the relatively small auxiliary language community, and there have been a few projects toward what is called a "worldlang." Probably Lingwa de Planeta (http://lingwadeplaneta.info/en/index.shtml), which uses a bunch of Chinese, Hindi and other root words, is the project that has come the farthest in this respect. I personally fall into the camp that says we might as well leverage the well-distributed common European vocabulary instead of making a language equally hard for everybody. (Besides, the speakers on Ĉina Radio Internacia - Chinese Radio International - speak better than the ones on Radio Havano Kubo - Radio Havana Cuba.)

On a personal level I am obviously fond of Esperanto, although I think something like Ido would probably have a better chance of actual success. The general idea is quite nice, and it embodies a spirit of internationalism that has always appealed to me.

[AK]

I dislike Esperanto; it carries a heavy bias towards European rooted vocabulary, phonology, grammatical structure and syntax. It's just another European language really. Nothing truly international about it.

If anything, we should learn a Chinese-based auxiliary language, as it'd be more logical, considering most people speak an asian language related to the Sino-Tibetan family.
The only problem with learning a Chinese-based one is that it is too biased towards Asian languages. Nothing truly international about that one, either. I don't think that one language across the world is a feasible idea.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

And there's the question of reality vs. ready made ideas that spring from the heads of would be reformers. English is the most widely spoken language*, as a result of world development occurring the way it did. At the moment then, it seems more effective to work on communications in English than to spend time learning Esperanto.

If you're going to learn a language, it's probably best to choose one that will allow you to communicate with people you otherwise couldn't. Most people who speak Esperanto probably understand English as well. Many Mandarin and Spanish speakers do not.

* Not the language spoken by the largest number of people, but the language spoken by the largest variety of people, in the largest number of places. For example, airplane pilots communicate with air control towers in English, no matter where in the world they are from or where they are landing.

[Lolshevik]

Dude, English is hella hard to learn. I'm a native speaker and I still don't know when to use "lie" or "lay" in my book.

Plus, yes, English is international, but it's mostly the educated classes of the world who have the privilege/curse of learning English, not the world proletariat.

[Q]

NHIA's post highlights another dimension to the Esperanto discussion. One which I also discussed in a recent thread of mine (http://www.revleft.com/vb/despite-crisis-further-t141677/index.html). That is the dimension of alternative culture.

I think we, communists, ought to promote Esperanto as a international (or at least European, (Latin-)American and African) language. This as part of an alternative culture project that builds the working class as its own international entity and make the point that national borders are irrelevant in our world.

English in contrast is the language of the former and current imperial hegemon and consequently cannot act in such a way.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Again, you mean. I am afraid the glory days of the esperantists are behind them. A shame really.

Yeah ofcourse thats what i mean.

As menthioned i would like to know how efficient it is to learn esperanto for people who dont speake a indoeuropean laguage.

[Crux]

Yeah ofcourse thats what i mean.

As menthioned i would like to know how efficient it is to learn esperanto for people who dont speake a indoeuropean laguage.
I hear japanese people have it easier to learn esperanto than english because of the extremely simple grammar.

[Tatarin]

We could use it as a secret language on this board so that the nazis won't be able to read... unless they learn esperanto which would be against their principles. :lol:

[Animal Farm Pig]

I've never studied an invented language before, but I've been a bit curious about them. I think I like Interlingua better than Esperanto. Here are sample texts from the wikipedia page about each:

Esperanto
Esperanto:
«En multaj lokoj de Ĉinio estis temploj de drako-reĝo. Dum trosekeco oni preĝis en la temploj, ke la drako-reĝo donu pluvon al la homa mondo. Tiam drako estis simbolo de la supernatura estaĵo. Kaj pli poste, ĝi fariĝis prapatro de la plej altaj regantoj kaj simbolis la absolutan aŭtoritaton de feŭda imperiestro. La imperiestro pretendis, ke li estas filo de la drako. Ĉiuj liaj vivbezonaĵoj portis la nomon drako kaj estis ornamitaj per diversaj drakofiguroj. Nun ĉie en Ĉinio videblas drako-ornamentaĵoj, kaj cirkulas legendoj pri drakoj.»

English translation:
In many places in China, there were temples of the dragon-king. During times of drought, people would pray in the temples that the dragon-king would give rain to the human world. At that time the dragon was a symbol of the supernatural. Later on, it became the ancestor of the highest rulers and symbolised the absolute authority of the feudal emperor. The emperor claimed to be the son of the dragon. All of his personal possessions carried the name "dragon" and were decorated with various dragon figures. Now dragon decorations can be seen everywhere in China and legends about dragons circulate.

Interlingua
Interlingua se ha distachate ab le movimento pro le disveloppamento e le introduction de un lingua universal pro tote le humanitate. Si o non on crede que un lingua pro tote le humanitate es possibile, si o non on crede que interlingua va devenir un tal lingua es totalmente indifferente ab le puncto de vista de interlingua mesme. Le sol facto que importa (ab le puncto de vista de interlingua mesme) es que interlingua, gratias a su ambition de reflecter le homogeneitate cultural e ergo linguistic del occidente, es capace de render servicios tangibile a iste precise momento del historia del mundo. Il es per su contributiones actual e non per le promissas de su adherentes que interlingua vole esser judicate.[49]

Interlingua has detached itself from the movement for the development and introduction of a universal language for all humanity. Whether or not one believes that a language for all humanity is possible, whether or not one believes that Interlingua will become such a language is totally irrelevant from the point of view of Interlingua itself. The only fact that matters (from the point of view of Interlingua itself) is that Interlingua, thanks to its ambition of reflecting the cultural and thus linguistic homogeneity of the West, is capable of rendering tangible services at this precise moment in the history of the world. It is by its present contributions and not by the promises of its adherents that Interlingua wishes to be judged.


With no study of the language at all, I can read and understand Interlingua. I can't say the same for Esperanto.

[graymouser]

With no study of the language at all, I can read and understand Interlingua. I can't say the same for Esperanto.
Si, on pote leger Interlingua a prime vista. Iste esseva uno de le scopos principal del lingua. Ma, Interlingua non es tanto facile pro comenciantes como Esperanto. Le application primari de Interlingua in le mundo real es pro conferentias scientific. E, si on pote dicer que Esperanto es troppo occidental, il es plus ver de Interlingua.

Sorry if anything above is off, my Interlingua's not as good as my Esperanto. I have to look up words a lot to check the spelling.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

We should have one of the language sub-forums in Esperanto.

[Q]

We should have one of the language sub-forums in Esperanto.

There would be of little practical use as all that effectively does is exclude many people as opposed to include people. There are extremely few if any people on the planet that only know Esperanto as their first language.

[deLarge]

But modern revolutionaries should learn Spanish (in the US) or other languages of oppressed groups.

Anyone else find it mildly amusing/ironic that the ultimate reason for learning Spanish would be that the Spanish imperialists invaded, conquered, and raped large amounts of south/central America?

[graymouser]

Anyone else find it mildly amusing/ironic that the ultimate reason for learning Spanish would be that the Spanish imperialists invaded, conquered, and raped large amounts of south/central America?
Of course. And in Bolivia and Peru, revolutionaries should learn Quechua and Aymara where appropriate. Other indigenous languages as well. But in the United States, the annexation of a large chunk of Mexico made it an impossibility that Spanish speaking immigrants would not play a critical role in large parts of the country's economy.

The world we live in emerged with blood and dirt dripping from every pore. Doesn't change the pragmatic situation a whit.

[Lolshevik]

Si, on pote leger Interlingua a prime vista. Iste esseva uno de le scopos principal del lingua. Ma, Interlingua non es tanto facile pro comenciantes como Esperanto. Le application primari de Interlingua in le mundo real es pro conferentias scientific. E, si on pote dicer que Esperanto es troppo occidental, il es plus ver de Interlingua.

Sorry if anything above is off, my Interlingua's not as good as my Esperanto. I have to look up words a lot to check the spelling.

1. Could you tell me (in a PM perhaps so as not to derail the thread) where / how you learned Interlingua?

2. I don't think Interlingua is a good international language. if esperanto is accused of eurocentrism, then certainly interlingua is guilty much more. Interlingua has grammar that is not regular, but is "logical" to the brains of Romance and Germanic speakers. Esperanto has a few things that seem illogical or weird to me, like the accusative -n ending, but the grammar is perfectly regular.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Esperanto seems like a good choice for a European language. Interlingua seems like a better choice for the Americas, since more people speak Romance languages there.