The PANWO (Post Apocalypse New World Order) : a communism-like system

[matevz91]

Hy!

I am new on this forum and I hope that I will make some acquaintances, with whom I will work on my theory of how to create a communist-like society after an apocalypse.

I attached the PDF file and those of you who are interested can look through it.

The title of this PDF file is: "Elite in the PANWO system, Theoretical discussion about a Framework system".
Why elite and why a framework system you might ask?

Well, the PANWO accordingly to elites has 2 main goals:
– Elimination of the lower part of the ruling-elite.
– Reduction of prestige of the ruling-elite

As you (I hope) already know, the Soviet system was a closed elite, while the western system is a open elite (at least they propagate it as an open elite). For me personally, the closed elite is better, but it has some major drawbacks. I have presented those drawbacks in my writing. I tried to eliminate those drawbacks by combining with the western system.

If you do not know what I am talking about (even I am not sure that I have written it in a understandable way :) ), please read the PDF.

About the framework system, if you know the computer terminology, a framework is something uncompleted, a set of rules, methods, which are meant to be used in the end product.
Well, PANWO is such a system.

The reason why I have chosen to work on a framework system is to provide those who will survive the apocalypse with freedom of adjusting the system in which they will live, while at the same time making sure that it complies to general communist principles and that it will be future-compatible.

If you cannot download the PDF, post a reply or send me a message.

I hope that at least some of you will be prepared to work with me on my PANWO system, because it is way too much for just one person (i.e. me:rolleyes: )

Have a nice day,
Matevz91

[Q]

Closed elites? Apocalypses?

This idea doesn't look very appealing in the slightest sense.

Let me ask you: What do you think communism is and why do we need elites for that?

[matevz91]

In order to establish a communist state, one must think from the top, i.e. how to create a leadership which will originate from the society and will be responsible before the society (i.e. depriving it from its "better" status, while at the same time not removing its power to lead the way).

As it goes to your remark that you do not know what this is about, let me cite something from my post:
"If you do not know what I am talking about (even I am not sure that I have written it in a understandable way ), please read the PDF."

You know, one must never rule out the possibility of an apocalypse (not Biblical one, but natural one, such as meteor hitting the earth or new ice age). The idea is that we must be prepared for this word-wide case, because that will be the perfect chance to establish a firm Communist society).
And why the PANWO starts with elites? Because we must learn on what was wrong with the CPSU in order not to do it again.

If this idea does not sound appealing to you, feel free to feel that way. Some out there might think different. And if I am the only one who thinks that the idea of a PANWO framework system does not make sense, then I am very sorry (perhaps I am a result of a some sort of mutation and do not know what I am talking about:laugh:).

I wish you a nice day.

[Revolutionair]

What happened to Marx his classless and stateless society? :(

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The material conditions after any apocalypse worthy of the name are more likely to produce feudal or even slave-holding societies, no matter what any self-appointed elites say.

[matevz91]

Well read the PDF. And yes, Marx is not the supreme command in the world of communism, because the communism is way older than 200 years.

And please, do not bother with such replies! Respect to Marx and Engels, but they were only people. They could not have thought of everything. That is why we are here, aren't we? To upgrade what they have done and to extend it even further.

I will quote something out of my PDF: "I wanted to fully confirm to the “Dictature of the
Proletariat” and you can see that when I say that the People have power over the Presideum and the
Presideum has power over people. "

And I posted this post to find those who are willing to help me with my PANWO idea and thus make the basis of a communist society ready to take the control after the annihilation. And do not worry, Marx and Engels are not forgotten, if that is what you worry about. Nor are we, non-Marx and non-Engels people.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've had a look at the PDF. You don't seem to talk about the challenges presented by civilisation-threatening disasters. For instance, how do you intend to deal with the shortage of vegetation that accompanies such events as global impacts, super-volcano eruptions and ice ages?

[matevz91]

That is exactly what I would like you to help me. Among other things of course.
If you are interested, you are free to contact me.

I would like to prepare some sort of a short constitution, which would deal with general problems (ensuring law and order, ensuring the existence of state on the principles of PANWO framework), and therefore. Kind like the situation after the revolution in 1917 ("war communism") and how to proceed into a normal established (communist) society.

The main idea is that the number of people on the world is drastically reduced and that now the Earth can provide much more for them (environment catastrophe is temporal), and that there are no powerful capitalist states, some sort of a social and political vacuum. The main goal of the PANWO is to create a society which will transit into space age and which will focus outside (into exploring the space and even further, developing itself) instead of inside (like our current "democracy", which focuses on inner affairs of itself).
For more ideas what I am talking about, read the APPENDIX, where some examples of parts of the PANWO constitution are laid out.

[matevz91]

Sorry that I missed your previous reply, NoXion. I know that a proper "Apocalypse" could do more damage than good. Let us just say that this is exactly what PANWOS fights against. Create order out of non-order and learn on the mistakes of the past.

[Dimentio]

I have skimmed through the document. Interesting concept, though I think it is a little confused in some aspects.

Firstly, all societies more advanced than the hunter-gatherer tribes will have some sort of division of labour. That doesn't necessitate elitism though. Secondly, it would be a lot easier if you made a more thorough work to define the "elite". In general, capitalists don't perform anything in a modern society, not even the management of their own companies.

[matevz91]

As you have read, the elite is divided into the Ruling-elite and Non-ruling-elite. I refer to the ruling elite (elite with both moral and real power, for example politicians, and those "high capitalists", who you mentioned, Dimentio).

My Elite in the PANWO system does not concern itself with those who manage industry, technology,etc. but with those, who have power over masses. These big capitalists you mentioned simply do not exist on the current level of development of the PANWO idea, because I focused myself on the Presideum (temporal Ruling-elite) and the Indirect class (temporal Non-ruling-elite).

Have a nice day!

[Kotze]

For those interested: The actual proposal starts on page 8.

My first impression is that the commission thing has too much power if it can reject any candidate for the presidium (page 11). The limit of "2 members per nationality" (same page) gives an unfair advantage to people who live in nations with small populations, unless you were thinking about a future with every region called a nation having about the same population size. So if there will be nations with different population sizes, there should rather be quotas in proportion to the different population sizes. Likewise you can't just allow any factory to directly send 1 person to that "indirect class" thing, when factory A has 100 workers and factory B has 1000. I have to add a caveat though: Proportional representation doesn't imply proportional power, there is a distortion that is especially strong when people are part of a group that votes as a block (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banzhaf_power_index).

You should also say something about voting methods in that document (eg. Approval Voting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting), STV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote)).
The main idea is that the number of people on the world is drastically reduced and that now the Earth can provide much more for them (environment catastrophe is temporal)Ummm, this sounds very much like Malthus. Of course there is a theoretical limit to a sustainable population size, but what does this have to do with humans as they actually exist outside of that theory? In a society where you don't have to rely on having kids yourself as your only way of old age insurance, there is less pressure to have kids. Think for a minute: Is it really a good rule of thumb to believe that in regions with high population density the quality of life is low? Think about an empty lot in a city and an empty lot in a very remote place, both have the same size, which one is more valuable and why? High-density living needs less energy and it can be much better than living anywhere else, especially if the infrastructure planning discriminates strongly against cars.

It is apparant English isn't your first language (there are even words underlined by the spellcheck program in your diagrams, heh). I started reading fully expecting it to be at least a bit excentric, as there seem to be no other people willing to write about the future. Doing this is important, since something is only good or bad in comparison to something else, to convince people that this society is terrible requires having a different idea how to run things, at least a rough sketch of that.

I shall make my own excentric proposal.

[Dimentio]

Well, Pythagorean mysticism paved the ground for western science...

[matevz91]

Thank you Kotze. I appreciate your help. You have much greater knowledge than me, when it comes to various theories. :thumbup1: I think that it would be better to leave such speculations and plans to those who know more than I do, like you for example.

The reason why I think that much less people is better is because then there would be more resources pear each individual, while at the same time it would be easier to maintain the order, especially if they would live in settlements where density would be high. Remember, I talk about < 10^6 of people, way way lower number than todays 6.5 * 10^9.

For me, a ideal society would have virtually no criminal, but since there is a limit at 0, I would like to be as close as possible to no criminal. Here I focus especially on any form of organized criminal and criminal on higher levels (i.e. leadership).

No, I am not a native speaker of English, but I wish I had invested more time into correcting language errors. The reason why I did not do this is because I canceled the PANWO project more than once in the past.

And if you think that after an apocalypse a slave society would rise up, then I feel sorry for you, because I think that you are pessimistic. It seems that people are afraid of chaos - one replied to me that "There would be devil in it". Even if he is referring to Revelation, he is totally wrong.
Remember, out of Chaos only Order can emerge. And society where slaves exist is for me no Order. Remember, there is a reason why an Apocalypse will happen.

I know that there are many mistakes and flaws in the current PANWO theory. But I wonder, whether there is anything that is worth remembering or could be used in other projects? I think about releasing the PANWO under some sort of GPL licence, but if there is nothing good in it, what is the point? Please help me find the good spots in this PANWO theory!

[matevz91]

You know what, I really feel sorry for you. You call yourself revolutionary, but the only thing that is revolutionary about you is your propaganda. If you fail to see the chance for worldwide communist movement after such a large scale crisis, such as an apocalypse, when there is no USA with its great power and influence, no new-age imperialism, then God help you, because I cannot!

[Thirsty Crow]

You know what, I really feel sorry for you. You call yourself revolutionary, but the only thing that is revolutionary about you is your propaganda. If you fail to see the chance for worldwide communist movement after such a large scale crisis, such as an apocalypse, when there is no USA with its great power and influence, no new-age imperialism, then God help you, because I cannot!

Uuummm, so you propose that we sit, think about the new world order, and wait for an APOCALYPSE in order that a classless society may be formed?

First of all, why all this pessimism? Why do you think a natural disaster on a massive scale is something we should look forward to as it may bring communism about?
EDIT: oh shit, a religious loon. There is a Reason why Apocalypse will happen.
Nice.

[RED DAVE]

Weird elitist shit that has nothing to do with socialism, communism, etc.

We are, or should be, revolutionary democrats here, which has nothing to do with your bizarre system.

RED DAVE

[Dimentio]

In Eastern Europe, its usual to talk about elites in a neutral fashion. I think they are using the term "elite" in a somewhat different fashion than in the west, almost as if they think that elites always will be necessary and are almost a force of nature.

[revolution inaction]

In order to establish a communist state, one must think from the top, i.e. how to create a leadership which will originate from the society and will be responsible before the society (i.e. depriving it from its "better" status, while at the same time not removing its power to lead the way).



please go away and learn about communism, here (http://libcom.org/thought/anarchist-communism-an-introduction) is not a bad place to start, although i'm sure other people will have different ideas

[matevz91]

"If you fail to see the chance for worldwide communist movement" - please focus on the word >>chance<<

That means, it is only one of many. And it is a draft, meant to be worked upon and those elites are not everything. That is why it is called "Elites in the PANWO system".
No, we should not wait for it, but it would be good if we are prepared
(a preemptive plan, which allows flexibility - that is why it is a framework system, Menocchio).

And please do not order me to learn about communism, I know enough for my needs.
If I did not, I would look elsewhere, not on revleft! I came here with a reason.

There are as many communist-like systems as are communists. And no one is orthodox.

[revolution inaction]

And please do not order me to learn about communism, I know enough for my needs.
If I did not, I would look elsewhere, not on revleft! I came here with a reason.

There are as many communist-like systems as are communists. And no one is orthodox.

so far you have demonstrated absolutely no understanding of communism, so either you are so ignorant you are not aware of your own ignorance, or you are some kind of troll.

[matevz91]

For you, "revolution inaction", I am a ignorant troll. I suppose you consider yourself orthodox...

[revolution inaction]

For you, "revolution inaction", I am a ignorant troll. I suppose you consider yourself orthodox...

i've really never thought about it and the only people i've seen use that term are marxists, which i am not.

[RED DAVE]

And please do not order me to learn about communism, I know enough for my needs.Sure you do if your "needs" involve constructing an elitist system that has nothing to do with communism / socialism / marxism.

RED DAVE

[∞]

Its an opportunity for capitalism to be viscous as possible. The lower classes of society are the ones to be affected by disaster. Look at New Orleans. They transferred a working class town on a public sector, now they have privatized school systems, needless to say life is more difficult for the working class.

[neosyndic]

x

[L.A.P.]

In order to establish a communist state.

I'll just stop you right there.