non-Lenin vanguard?

[6SR]

Are there any Marxist tendencies that believe in a vanguard but are not Leninist?

[Aesop]

Anarcho-communism?
They do not believe in theory of having a vanguard, however in practice it is a different story.
On a side note why anti-leninist?

[6SR]

I'm just curious in case I decide I don't like Lenin. But I think you probably need a vanguard to teach people about communism when they don't have time to learn it by themselves thanks to working all the time. But I think maybe Lenin went too far and became a leader in the boss way instead of the teacher way. I'm still learning.

[Queercommie Girl]

Eh...you don't become a revolutionary just because you "like" someone...

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The "Impossibilist" tendency, the SPGB, the World Socialist Party, etc. seem to be pre=Leninist vanguardists, in my understanding. Lreft coms have theories of vanguardism that are critical of Lenin.

[6SR]

Iseul if I disagree with Lenin's practices I will want to find a tendency that is vanguardist but not Leninist. See what I'm saying?

Lenina Rosenweg thanks I will investigate those.

[Queercommie Girl]

Iseul if I disagree with Lenin's practices I will want to find a tendency that is vanguardist but not Leninist. See what I'm saying?


The world is never black-and-white. You will never find a tendency that you completely agree with.

I don't completely agree with "Leninism", but essentially I'm still a Leninist.

Everyone made mistakes.

[6SR]

True but I'd still like to investigate the possibilities.

[ContrarianLemming]

Most ideologies support a non party vangaurd, including all libertarian marxists and anarcho-syndicalists.

[Q]

"Vanguard" is a term that can mean two distinct things:

1. The, what I call, cliché-definition: The communist party = the vanguard of the class and the central committee is the vanguard of the vanguard.
2. The orthodox Marxist definition: The vanguard are the most politically aware workers that act as de facto leaders on the ground. The vanguard party in this definition is then a class party that tries to organise these advanced layers of workers as by organising them, you organise the whole class.

[LebenIstKrieg]

2. The orthodox Marxist definition: The vanguard are the most politically aware workers that act as de facto leaders on the ground. The vanguard party in this definition is then a class party that tries to organise these advanced layers of workers as by organising them, you organise the whole class. the second one sounds best.

[6SR]

Yeah the second one is like what I meant in my second post. I favor something like that but I don't know if I favor Lenin. I have to investigate more to see if the Leninist way turned it into more like bosses of the workers.

[Q]

Yeah the second one is like what I meant in my second post. I favor something like that but I don't know if I favor Lenin. I have to investigate more to see if the Leninist way turned it into more like bosses of the workers.

If you want to research the context in which Lenin worked and where he got his ideas from, I definitely suggest to read Lenin Rediscovered - "What is to be done?" in context by Lars Lih. You can read it online here (http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AVUvEUsdCgC&dq=lenin%20rediscovered&pg=PP1&ots=5i1w6txMWk&sig=OJsUaY6U5fJxgsnMuxecAq_im1c&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false).

[6SR]

OK thanks Q. It is over 800 pages but I will try to read it but I will wait until I know enough to understand it.

[Q]

OK thanks Q. It is over 800 pages but I will try to read it but I will wait until I know enough to understand it.

Well yeah, it is long, but the beauty of it is that it takes the time to not assume a lot and explain the basic assumptions of Marxist strategy in the late 19th and early 20th century.

[syndicat]

2. The orthodox Marxist definition: The vanguard are the most politically aware workers that act as de facto leaders on the ground. The vanguard party in this definition is then a class party that tries to organise these advanced layers of workers as by organising them, you organise the whole class.

this is also how some anarchists define "vanguard". The vanguard in this sense is just that section of the working class who exhibit leadership abilities...speak up in meetings, can argue for a particular direction, are actively involved, etc.

but the size of this layer in the class should not be seen as static. it needs to grow if the class is to be able to become self-directed and not dependent on some directing hierarchy.

it also does not have to be organized into a "party", much less a single party. on the other hand, a revolutionary political organization that has members in this layer can exercize a positive influence.

[Devrim]

Are there any Marxist tendencies that believe in a vanguard but are not Leninist?

The German KAPD advocate an 'elite' vanguard party, 'as hard as steel as clear as crystal', and were certainly opposed to the Leninist conception.

Devrim

[Zanthorus]

The "Impossibilist" tendency, the SPGB, the World Socialist Party, etc. seem to be pre=Leninist vanguardists, in my understanding. Lreft coms have theories of vanguardism that are critical of Lenin.

No, the 'Impossibilist' tendency rejects 'Vanguardism' and 'Leninism' wholesale. Their party doesn't even have leaders. I'm not sure why you mention Left-Communism in connection with them, but I think this may be your source of confusion. The SPGB are not Left-Communists as their tendency formed as a split from the second and not the third international. Certainly Left-Communists have formulated ideas about the vanguard that are critical of the one party setup in Russia after mid-1918 when the Left-SR's jumped ship, but the SPGB is not one of us. The SPGB does in fact accuse the ICC of being a crypto-Leninist organisation.

Although as a side note and a warning, not all Left-Communists are uncritical of Lenin, the Bordigists think that Democratic Centralism was only necessary because the parties of the Communist International were 'impure' Communist parties, and that the single international Communist party of the future will base itself on 'Organic Centralism', with no internal democratic mechanisms whatsoever. In practice this approach has led the original International Communist Party to split into a thousand tiny sects, each one claiming to be the one true descenders of the Italian Left and the party which will finally lead to the proletariat to victory. Personally, I think this shows just how far the traditional view of Lenin is wrong. If Lenin had really wanted a small party of conspiratorial 'proffesional revolutionaries' to take power, the Bolshevik party would never have moved beyond sect status, let alone been voted into power at the second All-Russia Congress of Soviets.

[6SR]

Devrim Wikipedia says the German KAPD was Council Communist so do Council Communists mostly agree with what you said about a non-Lenin vanguard?

[Devrim]

Devrim Wikipedia says the German KAPD was Council Communist so do Council Communists mostly agree with what you said about a non-Lenin vanguard?

No, I just looked at the thing on Wiki and it is a bit of a simplification. The KAPD often refereed to itself as council communist at the time. However, later council communists, including some of the same people, adopted different ideas on the role of the party. What is generally refereed to as council communism today is against the idea of a vanguard party.

Devrim

[6SR]

OK thanks.