What exackly is Anarcho-Trotskyism?

[EvilRedGuy]

Some thinks its a joke but there are actual peoples who considers themself this so i just want to know.

[Queercommie Girl]

It doesn't really exist. In fact, there are probably more anarcho-Maoists and Trot-Maoists than anarcho-Trotskyists.

However, objectively ultra-leftist third-campist Trotskyism is quite close to certain tendencies of anarchism which are more sympathetic to Leninism.

[AK]

http://www.kronstadt-uprising.co.uk/images/art8.jpg
Sorry, but this thread was begging for it.

[fa2991]

Made up, but hilarious.

[Forward Union]

As it's a term that you have just made up, I think you ought to tell us...

[F9]

Anarcho-fascists exist, nazbol's exist, national anarchists exist, that dont means there are ideas are correct!first and 3rd arent anarchists, and 2nd arent communists.While some people may exist to label themselves like that, this thing CANT HAPPEN
They are fooling themselves.

[Queercommie Girl]

Anarcho-fascists exist, nazbol's exist, national anarchists exist, that dont means there are ideas are correct!first and 3rd arent anarchists, and 2nd arent communists.While some people may exist to label themselves like that, this thing CANT HAPPEN
They are fooling themselves.

But "anarcho-Trotskyists", "anarcho-Maoists" and "Trotskyite-Maoists" aren't in the same category as "anarcho-fascists", "nazbols", "national socialists" etc. The former set are certainly objectively possible because they all belong to the revolutionary leftist camp.

[Widerstand]

The only time I ever heard that word was in that fancy animated video by that one batshit Third-Worldist Maoist who called RevLeft an "Anarchotrotskyite" conspiracy.


But "anarcho-Trotskyists", "anarcho-Maoists" and "Trotskyite-Maoists" aren't in the same category as "anarcho-fascists", "nazbols", "national socialists" etc. The former set are certainly objectively possible because they all belong on the revolutionary leftist camp.

I'm an Anarcho-statist myself.

Oh wait...

[Queercommie Girl]

The only time I ever heard that word was in that fancy animated video by that one batshit Third-Worldist Maoist who called RevLeft an "Anarchotrotskyite" conspiracy.



I'm an Anarcho-statist myself.

Oh wait...

I think sectarianism sucks. Generally one should try to be as non-sectarian as possible without undermining one's own principles.

But seriously I think objectively the differences between anarchism and left communism are largely semantical.

[Widerstand]

Mb between Anarchism and Luxemburgism. Maaaaaaaaaybe between Anarchism and Left Communism in the broader sense. But since when is Trotskyism Left Communist?

[graymouser]

However, objectively ultra-leftist third-campist Trotskyism is quite close to certain tendencies of anarchism which are more sympathetic to Leninism.
Who are you referring to here, on both sides? LRP and Platformism?

[F9]

But "anarcho-Trotskyists", "anarcho-Maoists" and "Trotskyite-Maoists" aren't in the same category as "anarcho-fascists", "nazbols", "national socialists" etc. The former set are certainly objectively possible because they all belong to the revolutionary leftist camp.

they are both fooling themselves the same, maybe the ridiculousness of some be bigger, but its still not doable.

[Queercommie Girl]

they are both fooling themselves the same, maybe the ridiculousness of some be bigger, but its still not doable.

Ok, since I don't know that much about anarchism I won't comment about that.

But Trotskyite-Maoism is possible. The Chinese Trotskyist leader Chen Duxiu was the First General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party. The CCP just needs to rehabilitate Trotskyism in the party and admit Mao made mistakes. Since the CCP already official states that Mao made mistakes during the Cultural Revolution etc. this isn't out of the question.

Today in mainland China there are already people influenced by Trotskyism who are also associated with the CCP. I don't write-off the CCP entirely as an organisation, but for the CCP to be revitalised, there needs to be a class war fought within the party itself.

[graymouser]

But Trotskyite-Maoism is possible.
Maoism involves the belief that "socialism in one country" is a viable option, which is incompatible with the permanent revolution. Also, there are deep methodological differences between the Mass Line and the Transitional Program that I think would make it unviable. The closest to a synthesis is Marcyism, which has theoretical differences from both.

[Queercommie Girl]

Maoism involves the belief that "socialism in one country" is a viable option, which is incompatible with the permanent revolution. Also, there are deep methodological differences between the Mass Line and the Transitional Program that I think would make it unviable. The closest to a synthesis is Marcyism, which has theoretical differences from both.

Actually in the ultimate sense Maoism is also internationalist, especially more leftist versions of Maoism.

There are of course differences, but note I'm not really saying that we just combine the two tendencies so that the original versions disappear, but rather both tendencies can be re-habilitated on both ends, and exist as variant tendencies within the same political party. The Maoists have the idea of "one party, multiple factions".

Of course, certain basic principles must be observed, like proletarian democracy. But left Maoists at least have never ever stated that they are against worker's democracy in any way, at least on paper.

[EvilRedGuy]

So Anarcho-Trotskyism is just a joke and peoples have misunderstod that it dosen't excist. Ok that was all i needed to know.

[Q]

The only person I know who identified himself as an anarcho-Trotskyist was NKOS (now Enragé) who back in 2008 yelled that on the 40th anniversary of May '68 we needed to "continue were they stopped and finish that revolution" (he seemed quite serious in that one).

Maybe he has wised up somewhat now ;)

[scarletghoul]

1. a joke
2. the most ridiculous naive opportunist 'tendency' imaginable :lol:

[F9]

2. the most ridiculous naive opportunist 'tendency' imaginable :lol:

no u:rolleyes:

[Zanthorus]

If I recall, it was originally revleft meme. It's also a slur sometimes used against platformists because they're basically Trotskyists who don't like Trotsky.


But seriously I think objectively the differences between anarchism and left communism are largely semantical.

Between certain types of anarchist and maybe those who swing more towards Council Communism this is probably true. I have seen some anarchists attacking Left-Communism and 'ultra-leftism' on here before, which was highly amusing.


Luxemburgism.

I don't think 'Luxemburgism' really exists.

[Alf]

The best example of 'anarcho-Trotskyism' was the former Anarchist Workers Group in the UK. I went to one of their meetings about the Gulf war in the early 90s. They said we should support Saddam's Iraq against the US because it was fighting imperialism. Classic Trotskyist 'lesser evil' politics. Some of the AWG had come from Trotskyism and some went back to it. I also agree that the so-called 'platformist' groups, like the WSM in Ireland, tend to have a lot of a lot in common with Trotskyism, for example the WSM's call for the nationalisation of Ireland's energy sources, their support for 'anti-imperialist' struggles etc. .

[black magick hustla]

ive used it as a slur against the really "leftist" anarchist tendencies, like the ones who are all about infiltrating unions and left wing organizations in the hope of stirring people towards anarchism

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I don't think 'Luxemburgism' really exists.

Communist Democracy (Luxemburgist) (http://democom.perso.neuf.fr/communistdemocracy.htm)

Red Luxemburgist International (http://www.luxemburgism.lautre.net/spip.php?article1)

[Niccolò Rossi]

Communist Democracy (Luxemburgist) (http://democom.perso.neuf.fr/communistdemocracy.htm)

Red Luxemburgist International (http://www.luxemburgism.lautre.net/spip.php?article1)

I've encountered these groups before. It doesn't stop me agreeing with Zanthorus that 'Luxemburgism' is a non-enity.

Nic.

[Zanthorus]

Communist Democracy (Luxemburgist) (http://democom.perso.neuf.fr/communistdemocracy.htm)

Red Luxemburgist International (http://www.luxemburgism.lautre.net/spip.php?article1)

Well, despite their nominal tendency, neither of these organisations is actually 'Luxemburgist', in the same sense that good deal of 'Marxist' organisations are no such thing. Just look at their positions:


Luxemburg’s conception of the democratic self-organization of the working class is vital today as an alternative to the Leninist notion of a vanguard of professional revolutionaries, separate from the working class and itself guided by a centralized body of experienced leaders.


Permanent internal democracy at all levels is an absolute necessity, we must therefore reject any system including "permanents" and "professionals". The leadership of a movement or of a structure has to include all of its members.

[...]

Basing ourselves on the analysis of Rosa Luxemburg (since 1904), we see that the policies applied by all the different "leninist" in power were completely opposed to our Marxist principles. Since 1917 and until today, the different "leninist" governments have abandoned all the objectives of socialism and communism

Now compare:


And comrade Plekhanov affirms that this is “Blanquism’s original sin”, to which the Russian Bolshevik comrades (we prefer to keep to this usual denomination) succumbed. In our opinion this reproach has not been substantiated by comrade Plekhanov. For the comparison with the members of Narodnaya Volya, who were effectively Blanquists, proves nothing, and the malicious remark that Zhelyabov, the hero and leader of Narodnaya Volya, was gifted with a sharper political instinct than the Bolshevik leader, Lenin, is in too bad taste to ponder over.

[...]

We would dispute comrade Plekhanov’s reproach to the Russian comrades of the current “majority” that they have committed Blanquist errors during the revolution. It is possible that there were hints of them in the organisational draft that comrade Lenin drew up in 1902, but that belongs to the past – a distant past, since today life is proceeding at a dizzying speed. These errors have been corrected by life itself and there is no danger they might recur.


The Social Democracy must enclose the tumult of the non-proletarian protestants against the existing society within the bounds of the revolutionary action of the proletariat. It must assimilate the elements that come to it.

This is only possible if the Social Democracy already contains a strong, politically educated proletarian nucleus class conscious enough to be able, as up to now in Germany, to pull along in its tow the declassed and petty-bourgeois elements that join the party. In that case, greater strictness in the application of the principle of centralization and more severe discipline, specifically formulated in party bylaws, may be an effective safeguard against the opportunist danger. That is how the revolutionary socialist movement in France defended itself against the Jauresist confusion. A modification of the constitution of the German Social Democracy in that direction would be a very timely measure.


In the present period, when we face decisive final struggles in all the world, the most important problem of socialism was and is the burning question of our time. It is not a matter of this or that secondary question of tactics, but of the capacity for action of the proletariat, the strength to act, the will to power of socialism as such. In this, Lenin and Trotsky and their friends were the first, those who went ahead as an example to the proletariat of the world; they are still the only ones up to now who can cry with Hutten: “I have dared!”

This is the essential and enduring in Bolshevik policy. In this sense theirs is the immortal historical service of having marched at the head of the international proletariat with the conquest of political power and the practical placing of the problem of the realization of socialism, and of having advanced mightily the settlement of the score between capital and labor in the entire world.

Clearly these organisations are not following the real Rosa Luxemburg, they are following a phantom which fits into their preconcieved 'libertarian', 'spontaneist' notions.

[Orange Juche]

Pretty much a straight-edge alcoholic.

[graymouser]

As long as we're pinning the tail on anarcho-Trotskyism in real life, there was the Revolutionary Socialist League, one of the splinters of the International Socialists in the 1970s that became the anarchist group Love & Rage. Not so much "anarcho-Trotskyism" as Trotskyism that became anarchist. The RSL splintered early, leaving us with the League for the Revolutionary Party who are hard-line state capitalist Trotskyists. (The IS was very productive when it came to shedding small groups.)

Also, the UK Solidarity had a bit of this going on, moving from Trotskyism to "libertarian socialism" that was not committed to anarchism as such.

[blake 3:17]

Here are a good chunk of the activist Left has anarchist or Trotskyist roots. Maybe get around the question by calling themselves libertarian socialist, or social anarchist, or Luxemburgist or something similar, but we're all the same demos and same meetings, so...

The secatarians figure out ways to stay pure by abstaining. It was only sectarian Trots who were selling papers outside the main meeting today, but I guess the sectarian anarchists don't have that much on paper.

[Devrim]

Some of the AWG had come from Trotskyism and some went back to it.

I don't think that is actually true, Alf.

Devrim

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Clearly these organisations are not following the real Rosa Luxemburg, they are following a phantom which fits into their preconcieved 'libertarian', 'spontaneist' notions.

That's always a problem with naming yourself after a patron saint, isn't it? It's illustrated as well by "Marxists," for example.

[Zanthorus]

That's always a problem with naming yourself after a patron saint, isn't it? It's illustrated as well by "Marxists," for example.


If you notice, I used that same example at the beggining of my post.

[Red Commissar]

When I think "Anarcho-Trot", I just think of the revleft meme to be honest. i.e. the supposed cabal of anarchist and trot admins.

[Weezer]

Anarcho-Trotskyism died when Council Trotskyism was born. (AK knows what I'm talking about :laugh:)