Amphictyonis
23rd September 2010, 05:26
How do you think socialism can form at all let alone into advanced communism in the United States seeing there is no real industrial work force (US= service sector economy) and (controversially) quality of material conditions is advancing (at the expanse of the third world). The mode of production in the west has shifted to something different- although still exploitative it's not the same as in Marx's time. A question I have is do you think the revolution will be based in material OR ideological motivations? Material meaning fighting for a better lot in life and ideological meaning fighting for whats right. Seeing most Americans currently enjoy some of the best material conditions in the world would it be safe to say, if revolution is to happen in America, either material conditions must worsen first or an intellectual/moral awakening must take place?
"If advanced capitalism is becoming an information society, in addition to the older configuration of a labor society, the labor premise can no longer be the first principle of critical theory. Domination cannot be theorized from the point of view of the labor activity, of the subject acting on matter to produce things. A new logic is called for that conceptualizes the social field on a different basis. And certainly one of the important features of the new premise must be that it accounts for the prominent place of information in the social space." -Mark Poster-
Both Marxists and Anarchists agree with Marx's theory that labor, be it service sector or industrial, creates value....and in production much of this is taken by the capitalist as profit, leaving a minuscule amount of value as wages. We both also agree that only the working class can overthrow capitalism. The thing is- the modern advanced capitalist societies in the west no longer have large populations of industrial workers and a certian level of "comfort" is being leeched from the third world industrial producers of (cheap) goods (for us to buy). This sets up some problems, one being the inability to organize/unionize a scattered service sector economy in the west and, in my opinion as a materialist, the second problem is- so long as this middle class population exists in a stage of relative compounding material advancment how can we in the west overthrow the system?
Besides the two problems above we have, again, the obvious problem of an almost complete lack of industry in America so wouldn't it be a step in the right direction to fight the capitalists outsourcing of industrial labor? When Marx criticized anarchists for being to unpredictable and not use to the regimented factory life was he in a way predicting how hard it would be to organize a non union service sector economy?
Do you think material conditions in the west are too comfortable for a revolution to take place? If not then why do you think a successful socialist revolution born of a mass movement has not taken over the west? In your daily life (in America) at work, in coffie shops, conversation with co workers, freinds and family how often do you encounter people who are open to the idea of socialist revolution? Do you think that would change if material condition drastically declined in the west?
"If advanced capitalism is becoming an information society, in addition to the older configuration of a labor society, the labor premise can no longer be the first principle of critical theory. Domination cannot be theorized from the point of view of the labor activity, of the subject acting on matter to produce things. A new logic is called for that conceptualizes the social field on a different basis. And certainly one of the important features of the new premise must be that it accounts for the prominent place of information in the social space." -Mark Poster-
Both Marxists and Anarchists agree with Marx's theory that labor, be it service sector or industrial, creates value....and in production much of this is taken by the capitalist as profit, leaving a minuscule amount of value as wages. We both also agree that only the working class can overthrow capitalism. The thing is- the modern advanced capitalist societies in the west no longer have large populations of industrial workers and a certian level of "comfort" is being leeched from the third world industrial producers of (cheap) goods (for us to buy). This sets up some problems, one being the inability to organize/unionize a scattered service sector economy in the west and, in my opinion as a materialist, the second problem is- so long as this middle class population exists in a stage of relative compounding material advancment how can we in the west overthrow the system?
Besides the two problems above we have, again, the obvious problem of an almost complete lack of industry in America so wouldn't it be a step in the right direction to fight the capitalists outsourcing of industrial labor? When Marx criticized anarchists for being to unpredictable and not use to the regimented factory life was he in a way predicting how hard it would be to organize a non union service sector economy?
Do you think material conditions in the west are too comfortable for a revolution to take place? If not then why do you think a successful socialist revolution born of a mass movement has not taken over the west? In your daily life (in America) at work, in coffie shops, conversation with co workers, freinds and family how often do you encounter people who are open to the idea of socialist revolution? Do you think that would change if material condition drastically declined in the west?