Soviet Education.

[Imposter Marxist]

Picture this. I am sitting in my current events class, filled with predominatly liberals. The topic of the day is education in America as opposed to other countries. Everyone is talking about ways to improve america's education system, and finally, I decide its my turn to throw in a opinon. I tell the class that I think education should be free, as a good society has educated citizens. Now, my school is -small-, less than 300 kids. We all know each other pretty well, so its no real shock that im a Red.

My teacher, however, is a dedicated Democrat. She even campagined for Obama last year. Perhaps my opinon was threatening to her, given my ideology, but a few minutes after my statement she felt the need to say this, "Well, lets remember, in the Soviet Union, people were forced to learn and do what they were good at, with no freedom to choose a job." I rolled my eyes, and a few people looked at me with grins, hoping I'd throw a fit.

Truthfully, I had no idea how the SU's education system worked, so I didn't want to throw around accusations without knowing. Is there any truth to what she said? I seriously doubt it, and I couldn't even find a reactionary google search claim about it, but I figured you guys would know better than anyone.

[maskerade]

The whole "being forced" thing is complete bs. I hear the same thing about Cuba and their doctors, how everyone who gets good grades is forced to be a doctor...you cannot have a good healthcare system built on people being forced to do something they do not want to do.

truth of the matter is, the soviet union made tremendous gains in education - everything was free, at all levels of education. In the US, a university degree can cost 200,000 bucks.

but don't get yourself caught in the "the USSR was so bad, it won't ever work again" trap. It is not a valid comparison to compare the US to the USSR. Most African countries have worse education systems than the US, yet the same economic system. The conditions in each country are and were different.

One good example when it comes to education though is Finland, were they don't have grades up until after 9th grade, and it is illegal to split up classes in skill categories (as in one class for bad math students, one for the better ones). And Finland consistently ranks as the best education system in the world, even beating South Korea in math according to some statistics! And this is all due to the collective nature of their pre-high school education.

And never let an opponent of socialism or communism define it.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Well, lets remember, in the Soviet Union, people were forced to learn [...] with no freedom [...]

Your teacher's right. However she's probably just depressed about being a slave to the US educational system which also "force[s] people to learn" with "no freedom".

[scarletghoul]

HAhaha wtf ? "forced to learn" ? Ohh how totalitarian.. Thank God we live in a society where we are free to degenerate from childhood and work shitty jobs all our lives, if we're lucky enough to get one that is.

[Thirsty Crow]

HAhaha wtf ? "forced to learn" ? Ohh how totalitarian.. Thank God we live in a society where we are free to degenerate from childhood and work shitty jobs all our lives, if we're lucky enough to get one that is.

I don't want to come off as prejudiced or something, but she's American. Unlike you and me, who were by law obliged to attend high school (well, in fact, obligatory high school and national curriculum are relatively new phenomena here where I live) and pass exams according to the national curriculum, she is probably used to the possibility of home schooling, which then by some warped act of reasoning becomes a signal of civil liberties. Hell, I think that most of Europe would count as totalitarian, by that standard. So much for the criterion of education when it comes to sweet talk of liberties and so on.

[sanpal]

Yes, indeed all children in the Soviet Union were forced to get education minimum 8 grade (not full secondary education). If a pupil was lazy he/she was influenced by pedagogical methods to force him/her to learn. Further every teenager freely choose whether get full secondary education (10 grade) or get vocational education = full secondary education + any profession. Then if the young man/woman having full secondary education wish to learn further, she/ he can get university education. If student have good marks (grades) he/she get grant (some money) every month from educational institution (not for secondary education which is only free). My mother was from worker family and had free university education and was a doctor, my father was from peasantry family and also had free university education. My brother and i have technical secondary school and then university education also without paying for learning. Teaching in the soviet period was more "in depth" than nowadays in the capitalist Russia where stupid or lazy person can buy education for money.


I forgot to mark: if teens didn't want to end the full secondary education they could go to work. No problem.

[Invincible Summer]

"Well, lets remember, in the Soviet Union, people were forced to learn and do what they were good at,

Fuck! I hate doing what I'm good at!

[blackwave]

I might be 'good' at cleaning toilets, doesn't mean I like it or want to do it.

[La Peur Rouge]

Unlike you and me, who were by law obliged to attend high school (well, in fact, obligatory high school and national curriculum are relatively new phenomena here where I live) and pass exams according to the national curriculum,

Actually in the US (at least in New York state) we were required by law to go to school until the age of 16, and we also had to pass state exams to graduate.

[this is an invasion]

We are forced to go to school in America.

[Thirsty Crow]

Actually in the US (at least in New York state) we were required by law to go to school until the age of 16, and we also had to pass state exams to graduate.

But you were also given an option of home schooling, right?

[La Peur Rouge]

But you were also given an option of home schooling, right?

Yes we did have that option.

I've never met anyone who was home-schooled, so I don't know much about it.

[this is an invasion]

But you were also given an option of home schooling, right?
That's still school.

And no, I was not given an option of home schooling. My parents were though. I don't see why I should be completely left out of that decision making process seeing as it has to do with my life.

[Thirsty Crow]

That's still school.

And no, I was not given an option of home schooling. My parents were though. I don't see why I should be completely left out of that decision making process seeing as it has to do with my life.

That's precisely what I mean. By the Constitution (or whichever Ammendment), you were given that right.
And only that, an abstract right, becomes the basis for a delusional demonization of anything that does not conform to the system which upholds this right.
I am only speaking of the mechanisms of the conclusion which the teacher made.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

I don't want to come off as prejudiced or something, but she's American. Unlike you and me, who were by law obliged to attend high school (well, in fact, obligatory high school and national curriculum are relatively new phenomena here where I live) and pass exams according to the national curriculum, she is probably used to the possibility of home schooling, which then by some warped act of reasoning becomes a signal of civil liberties. Hell, I think that most of Europe would count as totalitarian, by that standard. So much for the criterion of education when it comes to sweet talk of liberties and so on.

I guess if I live in the US and don't want my children to waste the best years of their lives sitting in plastic chairs in a florescent lamp-lit gray room, being psychologically demoralized by over-stressed and under-paid teachers, while they "learn" about how "Columbus discovered America", and churn out meaningless paperwork assignments to prepare them for future white collar enslavement, I must be some "warped" and "unreasonable" American redneck.

The fact that the Soviet system practiced coercive institutional education is evidence of that historical example's failure to abolish the capitalist relationship.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

But you were also given an option of home schooling, right?

To my knowledge that's only a realistic legal option in states like Virginia and Texas.


In California, for example, homeschoolers must either a.) be part of a public homeschooling program through independent study or a charter school, b.) use a credentialed tutor, or c.) enroll their children in a qualified private school (Such private schools may be formed by the parents in their own home, or parents may utilize a number of private schools which offer some kind of independent study or distance learning options). All persons who operate private schools in California, including parents forming schools just for their own children, must file an annual affidavit with the Department of Education.

Anyway:

Fuck "homeschooling", fuck the patriarchal family, fuck they schools, fuck a bunch of truant officers and faculty administrators, fuck all the teachers who would rather use their position of authority to commit psychological abuse and reinforce racist lies than reach out to the youths as class-brothers. The struggle of youth to duck out of school is the struggle of the working-class, no different than the struggle of striking factory workers.

And this applies for compulsory "education" under "socialist" states as well.

[Thirsty Crow]

I guess if I live in the US and don't want my children to waste the best years of their lives sitting in plastic chairs in a florescent lamp-lit gray room, being psychologically demoralized by over-stressed and under-paid teachers, while they "learn" about how "Columbus discovered America", and churn out meaningless paperwork assignments to prepare them for future white collar enslavement, I must be some "warped" and "unreasonable" American redneck.

The fact that the Soviet system practiced coercive institutional education is evidence of that historical example's failure to abolish the capitalist relationship.

Again, you're misreading what I wrote.
What is warped is that within the brutalizing capitalist system there "exists" a right which is then used hypocritically to judge ahistorically other societies.
I didn't intend to imply that Americans are "unreasonable rednecks". I emphasized the fact that home schooling exists in the US, which is a material factor which in turn functions as the basis for an incomplete, to say the least, judgement. I didn't intend to judge the principle and praxis of home schooling. I worded it wrongly and I apologize.

[manic expression]

I came across this (English) book in a Finnish library once:

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Soviet-Curriculum-Russian-Taught/dp/0709946678/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268087257&sr=8-4

If you can get your hands on it (don't buy it at that price, check out your local libraries and see what you can find), it's a very interesting study on the Soviet education system, as well as the values that the socialist state emphasized on a wider level. If not, look for similar books. From what I read, no, no one was forced against their will to become successful at something. The real point is that students obviously had choice, you only achieve in a field if you decide to put your mind to it. Otherwise the Soviet scientists who sent the first man to outer space in human history would have had to get real fcking lucky...seeing as they were all forced to be there against their will and had no self-motivation. :rolleyes:

Anyway, education is generally "forced" on some level or another...otherwise a small minority of homework would ever get done. And society's expectations always play a role in what people choose to do with their lives. But to say that anyone is entirely "forced" to become a doctor in Cuba or the USSR is so stunningly stupid that it almost challenges the concept of logic itself. I mean, really, I'm going to carry around a dunce cap and crazy-glue it to the head of the next person to say something that idiotic in my presence.

Oh, and PS, ask your teacher how she likes Obama when he screws over teacher unions. Doesn't that capitalist "choice" taste good?

[manic expression]

The fact that the Soviet system practiced coercive institutional education is evidence of that historical example's failure to abolish the capitalist relationship.
Or, it's evidence that you haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about. Learn the first thing about "the capitalist relationship", then open your mouth.

[this is an invasion]

Or, it's evidence that you haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about. Learn the first thing about "the capitalist relationship", then open your mouth.
I think it's pretty obvious that the USSR failed to abolish capitalism. To say otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.

[manic expression]

I think it's pretty obvious that the USSR failed to abolish capitalism. To say otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.
It abolished capitalism within its borders. Any scientific study of its economy and social relations will yield this conclusion.

[Thirsty Crow]

It abolished capitalism within its borders. Any scientific study of its economy and social relations will yield this conclusion.

Well, the effectiveness of such a study would be determined by a preconceived notion of necessary defining factors of the capitalist socio-economic formation. And needless to say, you adherents of SIOC cling to a weak notion of this sort.

[this is an invasion]

It abolished capitalism within its borders. Any scientific study of its economy and social relations will yield this conclusion.
I feel bad for you... :(

[blackwave]

I think it's pretty obvious that the USSR failed to abolish capitalism. To say otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.

Depends what one means by capitalism.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

HAhaha wtf ? "forced to learn" ? Ohh how totalitarian.. Thank God we live in a society where we are free to degenerate from childhood and work shitty jobs all our lives, if we're lucky enough to get one that is.

The Soviet Union repressed dissident kids by using the quadratic formula. I'd rather work at Mickey-D's than attempt shit like that.


We are forced to go to school in America.

Complete totalitarianism is when there's actual forced learning.

[Imposter Marxist]

Her point was not "You were forced to go to school" Put that, say, If I was good at science, i'd be forced to major in Science, and then become a scientist.

[gorillafuck]

I might be 'good' at cleaning toilets, doesn't mean I like it or want to do it.
Man, that class was too difficult for me. I failed the final so badly.

And everybody, get your heads outta your asses. The soviet system was not a very good one, but capitalism is defined by a class of property owners that use their means of production for the sole purpose of making private profit for themselves. The economic planners in the soviet union did not operate the means of production for the purpose of making private profit. Regardless of how much I'd like to criticize the soviet system, the state capitalist theory isn't right.

[Chimurenga.]

Depends what one means by capitalism.

No, not really. The Soviet Union was by no stretch of the imagination, Capitalist.

[Invincible Summer]

I guess if I live in the US and don't want my children to waste the best years of their lives sitting in plastic chairs in a florescent lamp-lit gray room, being psychologically demoralized by over-stressed and under-paid teachers, while they "learn" about how "Columbus discovered America", and churn out meaningless paperwork assignments to prepare them for future white collar enslavement, I must be some "warped" and "unreasonable" American redneck.

The fact that the Soviet system practiced coercive institutional education is evidence of that historical example's failure to abolish the capitalist relationship.




Fuck "homeschooling", fuck the patriarchal family, fuck they schools, fuck a bunch of truant officers and faculty administrators, fuck all the teachers who would rather use their position of authority to commit psychological abuse and reinforce racist lies than reach out to the youths as class-brothers. The struggle of youth to duck out of school is the struggle of the working-class, no different than the struggle of striking factory workers.

And this applies for compulsory "education" under "socialist" states as well.

Your criticisms about the educational system are that of bourgeois education. How is education as an institution part of "the capitalist relationship?"

[Amphictyonis]

Picture this. I am sitting in my current events class, filled with predominatly liberals. The topic of the day is education in America as opposed to other countries. Everyone is talking about ways to improve america's education system, and finally, I decide its my turn to throw in a opinon. I tell the class that I think education should be free, as a good society has educated citizens. Now, my school is -small-, less than 300 kids. We all know each other pretty well, so its no real shock that im a Red.

My teacher, however, is a dedicated Democrat. She even campagined for Obama last year. Perhaps my opinon was threatening to her, given my ideology, but a few minutes after my statement she felt the need to say this, "Well, lets remember, in the Soviet Union, people were forced to learn and do what they were good at, with no freedom to choose a job." I rolled my eyes, and a few people looked at me with grins, hoping I'd throw a fit.

Truthfully, I had no idea how the SU's education system worked, so I didn't want to throw around accusations without knowing. Is there any truth to what she said? I seriously doubt it, and I couldn't even find a reactionary google search claim about it, but I figured you guys would know better than anyone.

Well, Russia wasn't an advanced communist nation, it can be argued it wasn't even socialist. Having that said they industrialized far faster than the US and did a good job of churning out engineers.

Tell your teacher Russia, under Lenin and then Stalin, was not an advanced capitalist society turning to socialism (as Marx saw the correct path) but a backwards nation of mostly farmers trying to make the jump straight to socialism. It isn't a good example of communism.

This will take too long to explain and you'll just get the same old simplistic viewpoint from her. How does it feel, being smarter than your teacher? ;)

Make sure to bring a copy of "discipline and punish" by Foucault with you when you challenge her authority.

[Obzervi]

Education should be mandatory, but if shouldn't focus on all the pointless subjects of capitalist education. Education in a post-revolutionary society should give a detailed historical account of class struggle, colonialism, and capitalism. The goal of education should be to combat reactionary beliefs, which are passed on from one generation to the next. Indeed, custody of young humans should be retracted should their custodians exhibit this tendency.

[sanpal]

The fact that the Soviet system practiced coercive institutional education is evidence of that historical example's failure to abolish the capitalist relationship.

The opposite position will not abolish the capitalist relationship as well.
Maybe it will be worser: not educated persons don't be needed for revolution

[sanpal]

I think it's pretty obvious that the USSR failed to abolish capitalism. To say otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.

But the USSR has done an attempt to abolish capitalism. The USA hadn't yet. The West have experience of this attempt, the USSR hadn't.

[sanpal]

Education should be mandatory, but if shouldn't focus on all the pointless subjects of capitalist education. Education in a post-revolutionary society should give a detailed historical account of class struggle, colonialism, and capitalism. The goal of education should be to combat reactionary beliefs, which are passed on from one generation to the next. Indeed, custody of young humans should be retracted should their custodians exhibit this tendency.

It resembles the same situation was in the USSR. During the studying in school the pupils learned all you enumerated, in universities was the obligatory subject - marxist political economy, and philosophy, dialectical materialism, historical materialism, etc. As I see in the american schools the teachers say how bad was the life in the USSR. Hm, since school we were hearing only how bad was the life in the West, in the capitalist societies.