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Kassad
22nd September 2010, 00:16
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A Marxist analysis of Cuba's new economic reforms
Tuesday, September 21, 2010
By: Brian Becker

PSL's view of Cuba's plan to eliminate 500,000 state-sector jobs

It is more important than ever for communists, in general, and the Party for Socialism and Liberation, specifically, to state our position on the Cuban Revolution.

The capitalist media, the government, legions of academics and think tank policy “experts” are busy at work defining the current stage of the Cuban Revolution, and assessing major political and economic pronouncements made by Cuba and its individual leaders in recent weeks.

Unlike the capitalist government and its “thinkers,” we in the PSL are partisans of the Cuban Revolution. The capitalists look at any weakness in Cuba as an opportunity to attack, weaken or subvert the Cuban Revolution and the cause of socialism. We seek to promote a militant defense of Cuba and socialism. We seek to evaluate its problems, contradictions and policies with a different aim than the Empire. Thus, the “battle of ideas” on the question of Cuba is part and parcel of the global class struggle that is intensifying daily.

The Cuban government recently announced a major economic reorganization that will involve the reduction in employment in the state sector by as many as 500,000 workers. The reforms will also promote the enlargement of what is called the “private sector,” which means the formation of privately owned enterprises organized to generate profits for the private owners of the businesses.

There already is a private sector in Cuba, but it is limited and based on self-employment rather than employing the labor of others. Taxi drivers, restaurants, barbers and hairstylists, mechanics, and farmers are some of the occupations and areas of private business. The number of people working in the private sector is in the hundreds of thousands.

An unanswered question so far is whether the Cuban government is preparing to change its laws on the rights of privately owned business to hire labor—and thus exploit labor—and to generate and accumulate capital.

Russia and the New Economic Policy

This is not the first time that a communist-led government has reverted to the expansion of a private market.

Russia under Vladimir Lenin pursued such a policy in 1921 as a response to a dire economic crisis. Lenin characterized the reversion to capitalist methods as a bitter and temporary “retreat” imposed on the Bolsheviks.

Let us examine the Bolshevik experience. In 1921, the Bolsheviks under Lenin’s leadership introduced the New Economic Policy (NEP), which allowed for a dramatic expansion of a private capitalist market. After three years of civil war, the new socialist economy had collapsed and the state sector was unable to provide the resources to sustain a planned economy. Economic output by 1921 had fallen by 86 percent from 1914, and the peasants were turning against the socialist government.

The introduction of NEP laws successfully stimulated production the old-fashioned way. Some got very rich off of the exploitation of others’ labor. Still, the NEP allowed the communist-led government to survive. It also led to the division of rich and poor. A rural bourgeoisie became especially powerful and hostile to the socialist-led government.

The Bolsheviks in 1928, by then under the leadership of Stalin, ended the NEP and began widespread farm collectivization and rapid industrialization. A virtual civil war ensued in the countryside for several years, as did a fierce and bloody internal struggle inside of the Bolshevik party.

During the 1930s, Soviet industrial production took off, growing at an unmatched pace, while around the capitalist world private-sector industry was plunged into near paralysis by the Great Depression. The Soviets emerged by 1939 as a world power.

‘Cuba is not China’

The government in Cuba today is cutting back on its existing obligations, and trying to reduce its deficits by laying off 500,000 state-sector workers and cutbacks in entitlement programs or subsidies for the population.

A depressed economy makes it impossible for Cuba’s state sector to maintain its current deficits. How will the 500,000 people who lose their jobs in the next few months survive? The Cuban government is suggesting that the future of the 500,000 dismissed workers depends in large part on the “private management and initiative of the individual.”

The Cuban government is indicating that it hopes those unemployed workers will be absorbed by an expanded private sector. What is still unknown, at least to the outside world, is how the Cuban government plans to proceed with the expansion of a private sector.

When the Communist Party of China introduced a vast private sector in 1978, they described it not as a temporary retreat from socialism, but as a strategic, long-term policy that was desired. They called the creation of a vast capitalist market “socialism with Chinese characteristics.”

Foreign corporations were invited in. These corporations were offered the chance to make mega profits from the employment of low-wage labor in China, while China has sought to harness economic benefits, increase income and acquire technology as part of the terms of the deal. The Communist Party of China is aware that the creation of a Chinese bourgeoisie constitutes a political danger, and that the U.S. government will inevitably seek to overthrow the government in China. But China feels that it is strong enough to manage the situation.

Cuba is not China. China is huge and far away from the United States. The U.S. capitalist establishment believes that Cuba should belong to it—as it once did—and the capitalists are enraged over the perseverance and tenacity of the revolutionary government.

The Cuban government is well aware that a sector of privately-owned businesses—unless they are tiny and revolve around self-employment—will inevitably develop as a nexus for U.S. banks and corporations (and for the CIA), and for the capitalist governments and corporations of Europe.

There is divided opinion in Washington about how best to overthrow the revolution. The Miami-based fascists have one program. Another is represented by those who favor relaxing the blockade and connecting to Cuba’s private sector.

Time Magazine published an article on Sept. 14, “Cuba’s Big Layoffs: What to Do with the Unemployed,” which reports on the effort to change U.S. policy with the aim of fostering a private sector in Cuba: “The U.S. can play a role in that effort [helping private businesses in Cuba] as well. The Washington-based Cuba Study Group, a nonprofit headed by Cuban-American business leaders, has already proposed, along with Mexico's Banco Comportamos, a $10 million microloan program for Cuban entrepreneurs. Study Group executive director Tomás Bilbao says the Obama administration should explore something similar, as well as a change in embargo regulations to let Americans invest in private Cuban businesses.”

The private sector

The development of a private sector presumes the generation of profits for individual owners by employing other individuals who will be paid wages in return for the hours of work they perform. The value created by wage labor, or more precisely the surplus value created by those who work for wages, will become the property—the capital—of the individual owners.

The private ownership of capitalist enterprises means the exploitation of humans by other humans. It is the foundational feature of capitalist property relations. As mentioned, very small private businesses may also be a case of self-employment. But the tendency inherent in successful business is accumulation based on the creation of surplus and then the requisite need for additional investment—the employment of more wage labor. Capital accumulation in the private sector is a spontaneous phenomenon.

Cuba is a socialist country in the popular understanding of the term. It is not functioning according to the dynamics and tendencies of capitalist production, although it cannot escape the vicissitudes of the global economy. It is a planned economy. Its government was created by a dynamic multi-class revolution that smashed the old state apparatus and broke apart the capitalist state institutions: the army, police, courts and prisons. Although the revolutionary leadership that initiated the armed struggle against the old Batista regime was not a proletarian communist party, but rather a multi-class formation—the July 26 Movement—the new revolutionary state that came into existence after 1959 represented the class interests of the workers and poorest peasants.

When the class character of the state became evident between 1959 and 1961, the bourgeois nationalist sectors of the July 26 Movement abandoned the revolution and made common cause with the pro-Batista counterrevolutionaries. Most importantly, they became the agency through which U.S. imperialism employed a campaign of terror, subversion and invasion against the revolution.

Evaluating the reforms

Fifty years after the victory of a socialist revolution, the Cuban government and the Communist Party of Cuba are today retreating from some socialist methods and reintroducing some capitalist methods.

1) How do we, as communists, evaluate these reforms that are designed to accelerate production in the sector of the economy that is based on private ownership while diminishing the number of Cubans who are employed in the state sector?

Since the reforms have just been announced, and since we are not privy to the internal discussions and debates inside the Communist Party of Cuba, it would be reckless to lose a sense of modesty about our own assessment at this stage of a complicated process. Still, it is necessary for the socialist and communist movement to possess its own independent view and to vigorously promote that view to counter the anti-communist interpretations and analysis of the imperialist establishment. A sincere, honest and correct evaluation of these reforms has to address a number of interrelated issues:

What is the actual goal of the reforms? Are they designed to stimulate production and economic growth as a temporary measure based on emergency crisis circumstances or is the Communist Party of Cuba embarking on a long-term reorganization of the Cuban economy, transforming it into a fundamentally capitalist model? So far, at least, the explanation given by the Cuban Workers’ Confederation (CTC) is specific and particular to the identified problems of the current economic mechanism: “Our state cannot and should not continue maintaining enterprises with inflated payrolls, losses that pull down our economy and make us counterproductive, generate bad habits and distort worker behavior.” The CTC statement does not indicate any sweeping reversion to private markets similar to the Chinese model, but rather it states that the layoffs will “make the Cuban production model more efficient.”

2) Do the mass layoffs signal the beginning of an NEP-style reform, which is unknown at this time, or the creation of a hybrid economy that substantially diminishes the state or public sector in favor of the private sector? How will it be explained politically by the Communist Party of Cuba? Will it be explained as a step forward in the development of early-stage socialism akin to the orientation of China (“Socialism with Chinese Characteristics”), or rather as a forced retreat from socialist methods imposed on the revolution because of the global economic crisis, internal economic imbalances, drought and damage caused by hurricanes, and the economic blockade of U.S. and EU sanctions.

3) How will the Cuban state and Communist Party cope with the formation or further development of a nascent bourgeoisie in Cuba, which is the inevitable consequence of the promotion of the private sector? The formation of a bourgeoisie accelerates class divisions and reinforces the other attendant evils of class society, such as racism. Of course, a nascent bourgeoisie forms spontaneously through the illegal underground economy and corruption, and in proportion to the extent that the state sector of the economy cannot provide the population with many desired and necessary goods and services. The expansion of the private sector legalizes these currently underground commercial activities, allows them to flourish, and makes their profits a source of taxable revenue for the government and state.

Scarcity vs. surplus

The core economic problem facing Cuba today is scarcity. The state sector of the economy is unable to produce or import sufficient quantities of goods and services to meet the needs of society. This is true both for consumer goods—especially food but many other basic consumer products too—and in the realm of industrial materials, including factories, heavy and specialized equipment, raw materials and energy.

The problem of generalized scarcity is a crisis far different from the current crisis of the advanced capitalist economies. The problem of mature or developed capitalism is not that of scarcity, but of surplus.

In the United States, for instance, new home construction took place at a record rate between 2002 and 2006. The effect was the collapse of the housing market and the precipitous and sudden decline of housing prices. Banks, including some of the largest in the world, collapsed overnight. Millions of workers lost their jobs. Whole industries, like auto, were unable to sell cars, causing a surplus of inventory to build up. These core corporate giants then went into bankruptcy and masses of workers lost their jobs. Again, the problem was not that of scarcity of goods, but rather a surplus that could not be dispensed of at a profit.

Today, following the mind-boggling U.S. government bailout of banks and industries, it is estimated that corporate coffers are overflowing with an estimated $1.8 trillion in surplus cash. Yet, the corporations are not using those surpluses to hire or rehire laid-off workers, or to extend credit for business investment. Why not? Because they fear that the employment of millions more workers will only produce additional surplus commodities—at least at this stage in the business cycle—that will not be able to be sold in already saturated or depressed markets.

The problem of modern, advanced capitalism is the opposite of scarcity. It is rather the crisis of so-called overproduction. That is another way of saying that capitalism, the social order based on private profit, has become a relative hindrance or fetter on the forward march of production. The reduced production of goods, and with it the reduction in the employment of labor, is caused because too much rather than too little has been produced. Productive capacity lies idle because of surplus rather than scarcity.

Surplus in the United States leads to poverty. This is a bitter irony for the unemployed and an absurdity unique to advanced capitalism.

The new U.S. Census report reveals that poverty is spiking in this country today after years of indisposed of surpluses. The Sept. 16 Associated Press report on the recent U.S. Census figures stated: “The ranks of the working-age poor climbed to the highest level since the 1960s as the recession threw millions of people out of work last year, leaving one in seven Americans in poverty.

“The overall poverty rate climbed to 14.3 percent, or 43.6 million people, the Census Bureau said Thursday in its annual report on the economic well-being of U.S. households. The report covers 2009, President Barack Obama's first year in office.

“The poverty rate increased from 13.2 percent, or 39.8 million people, in 2008.

“The share of Americans without health coverage rose from 15.4 percent to 16.7 percent—or 50.7 million people—mostly because of the loss of employer-provided health insurance during the recession. Congress passed a health overhaul this year to address the rising numbers of uninsured people, but its main provisions will not take effect until 2014.”

Of course, the “poverty rate” statistics are something of a fraud since a family of four living on $22,000 per year in Washington, D.C., would not be counted as being “in poverty” because their income is too high.

How Marx’s view on socialism relates to Cuba

Cuba’s decision to lay off 500,000 workers and reduce subsidies is neither an inherent failure of socialism, nor remotely connected to the unemployment phenomenon in the United States or the other advanced capitalist countries.

Scarcity is not a principal feature of the socialist stage of society, which presumes the reorganization of society’s economic resources based on the highest developments and technological achievements of capitalism. But it is precisely the problem of scarcity that faces Cuba and other socialist revolutions in lesser developed economies.

The Cuban government is expanding a private market, especially in agriculture but elsewhere too, because it currently lacks the material wherewithal to use purely socialist methods to overcome the problems caused by scarce products and services. The state sector lacks sufficient resources.

When Marx and Engels were outlining the prospects for socialist revolution and socialist public ownership as the remedy for the crisis of overproduction, they were considering that the revolution(s) were likely to take place in several advanced capitalist countries. It was precisely because capitalist property relations had become a fetter on the development of the means of production that they believed society would inevitably reorganize production on a socialist basis (public ownership) and using socialist methods (economic planning free from the constraint of private profit) as a way to allow the forward march of productive capacity.

The Cuban Revolution did not take place in an advanced capitalist country. Neither did the socialist revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam or North Korea. As Lenin noted in 1917, the revolution took place not where capitalism was strongest, but where the bourgeoisie was the weakest.

Marx’s prognosis about where the socialist revolution would begin was amended by real life and historical processes. Revolution, it turned out, was more possible initially in poor countries, but their poverty combined with the enmity of imperialism made the construction of real socialism more difficult.

The economic tasks that presented themselves to the Cuban revolutionaries in 1959, and the earlier revolutionary formations in Russia and elsewhere, were not focused on rationalizing imbalances based on surplus product, but rather overcoming the heavy weight of scarcity and extreme underdevelopment.

The USSR, China and Cuba used socialist methods—such as public ownership of the means of production, central economic planning and the monopoly of foreign trade—to speedily accomplish basic social and economic tasks: literacy, health care, primary and advanced education, electrification, modern farming and industrialization.

To the extent that a socialist bloc of nations worked in cooperation with each other—and enjoyed their own international division of labor—the process of basic economic and social progress in these still undeveloped countries was greatly facilitated. But labor productivity indices were always lower than those evident at the center of the world capitalist market. This was a consequence of underdevelopment and colonialism, not of socialist methods per se. In fact, socialist methods led to staggering increases in production, science, education and the arts, while also providing for full employment, free health care and affordable housing.

Imperialism’s strategy

Economic development was the requisite priority of Cuba in 1959 and still is today. The policy and strategy of the U.S. Empire is to use scarcity and underdevelopment as a weapon to strangle the revolution. That is the essence of the U.S. blockade.

Economic recession and stagnation need to be urgently overcome. That is the primary task. The government is under siege from the United States, which seeks to utilize all of its economic and military power, and its “intelligence” capacities to destroy the Cuban government by fomenting splits inside of the Communist Party and through the agency of domestic counterrevolution.

Economic stagnation and protracted scarcity of goods and services is understood by imperialism to be fertile soil breeding dissatisfaction and making part of the population open to counterrevolutionary appeals. The goal of the U.S. blockade and the EU economic sanctions on Cuba is just that: to promote widespread demoralization and disaffection with the hope of generating a counterrevolutionary upheaval.

The United States and Britain used this tactic to overthrow the government of Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran in 1953. Tight economic sanctions caused disaffection among the middle classes who became the human material for the CIA-organized coup that overthrew the government and led to the return of the Shah’s regime. Once back in power, the Shah promptly denationalized Iran’s oil and gave it back to U.S. and British oil companies.

This strategy is more understood by the Communist Party of Cuba than anyone. It has been confronted by economic blockade/sanctions and CIA subversion for over 50 years.

The significance of the USSR and the socialist bloc

The Cuban economy’s integration into the socialist bloc is what allowed the country to survive in the early 1960s. The existence of the socialist bloc gave Cuba the ability to engage in trade on terms that were favorable to its social and economic development.

For instance, Cuba’s main trading partner was the Soviet Union. The USSR was the largest producer of oil in the world. Cuba produced sugar. The two countries traded oil for sugar. On the world market oil is traded in U.S. dollars. Cuba cannot access dollars easily. The integrated trade arrangements between Cuba and the USSR, East Germany, Czechoslovakia and the other socialist bloc nations allowed Cuba to develop rapidly, even with the severe imbalances caused by the blockade and endless U.S. military threats, as well as Cuba’s enforced economic isolation from most of Latin America.

When the socialist bloc governments of Eastern Europe and the USSR were overthrown in the reactionary wave of 1989-1991, Cuba lost not only its energy supplies, but also a vast and inter-tangled network of trade, aid and financing arrangements that had allowed it to survive and even grow despite the imperialist blockade.

In the last few years, Cuba’s economic isolation was mitigated by the left turn in Latin America and in particular by its relations with Venezuela under the leadership of Hugo Chavez, but also with Bolivia, Ecuador, Brazil and other countries. Economic growth picked up markedly, but the global capitalist economic crisis that swept the world in 2007 has had a grave impact on Cuba and most developing countries.

The Special Period and market reforms

The problem of generalized scarcity—which is the normative legacy not only for Cuba, but for all countries that are emerging either from colonialism or pre-capitalist economic systems, or both—soared and presented itself as an existential threat to the socialist project in Cuba during the years known as the Special Period (1991-1997).

Factories shuttered, farms stopped producing and electrical blackouts were constant as the Gross Domestic Product plunged. From 1990 to 1996, daily life in Cuba was marked by a drastic drop in caloric intake, from 2,500 to 1,500 calories per person, due to the cutoff of 85 percent of its trade and 80 percent of its imports. When many of us who are now leaders of the PSL took $2 million of donated insulin to Cuba in 1994, the country was a month away from a complete depletion of its reserves for the 46,000 insulin-dependent diabetics who live there.

Unable to provide the necessary inputs to maintain state farms and factories, the government introduced private farmers’ markets and a whole menu of market-oriented reforms. Cuba also permitted joint ventures with imperialist corporations from Europe, especially to revive the tourist industry. It also permitted the use of U.S. dollars sent to Cubans from family members living in the United States.

These measures helped reinvigorate the economy during the 1990s, which allowed for gains in health indices, recovery of caloric intake, and the maintenance of free healthcare and free universal education. But there were also definite social costs and negative setbacks for socialism, including the growth of economic inequality based on people’s access to dollars, association with tourists or the presence of family members in the United States.

A new Special Period today

The PSL’s leadership bodies have been discussing the internal situation in Cuba for many months. Gloria La Riva, a leader of the PSL and the coordinator of the National Committee to Free the Cuban Five, prepared a special internal report in May 2010 for the PSL’s Central Committee meeting that took place in Washington, D.C.

La Riva wrote: “Many of the same factors that led to Cuba’s 1990s Special Period have resurfaced or intensified, making it necessary for the government and the Communist Party of Cuba to reintroduce or increase some of the economic measures originally employed in the 1990s for its survival, and to pull back on others.

“Basically, the problems are a combination of the intensified blockade and the world economic crisis. There is lately a drop in production for lack of spare parts and raw materials, and a serious decline in the country’s purchasing power for essentials of food, medicine and fuel. The latter is due to the great increase in the world’s commodity prices, like that of rice, milk and meat; the precipitous fall in nickel prices (Cuba’s number two source of foreign income); as well as a decline in tourist income.

“For example, 50 percent of Cuba’s foreign earnings come from nickel. Until the financial and commodities crisis hit in 2008, nickel commanded a price of about $52,000 a ton (May 2007). Cuba in 2008 produced 70,000 tons thanks to foreign investment in its mines, mainly Sherritt Corp. in Canada.

“Then, at the end of 2008, nickel fell sharply, and Cuba announced that with the market price falling to between $9,000 and $10,000 per ton, Cuba was producing nickel at a loss.

“It has recovered some, to about $18,000 per ton in late 2009. (As of Sept. 14, 2010, nickel prices jumped to over $21,000 per ton.) Still, it is nowhere near the price of 2007.

“The loss in income from nickel has hit the Cuban economy the hardest of losses in any sector.

“At the same time, Cuba has maintained its decades-long policy of providing basic food subsidies for all the population, even as world commodity prices are sky-high. It has done this while an estimated 189,000 able adults are not working or studying, but still enjoying the full rights of free healthcare, housing (almost everyone owns their home or pays pennies for rent) and schooling—with no economic support for it by being engaged in production. This is becoming an untenable burden for the economy.

“A longtime top economist and currently Minister of Economy and Planning, Jose Luis Rodriguez, said that on the island there existed ‘189,000 people of working-age who neither study nor work; however, they parasitically enjoy all of the country’s social benefits. It will be necessary to face this situation using the appropriate methods to resolutely eliminate that form of exploitation of those who work or are studying by those who contribute nothing to society.’”

‘Long live the Cuban Revolution!’

The Party for Socialism and Liberation has been inspired by the Cuban Revolution. PSL members work tirelessly against the blockade, in pursuit of freedom for the Cuban Five, to expose the crimes of Luis Posada Carriles and the other CIA-funded terrorists, and in defense of socialism.

Our support for the Cuban Revolution is not based on an idealistic set of assumptions. Cuba is a workers’ state, not because it is a workers’ paradise, but because it has a superior social system compared to the capitalist system that preceded it.

Classes do not disappear overnight just because a revolution triumphed. Scarcity, furthermore, leads to competition for limited resources. Scarcity and underdevelopment create numerous economic imbalances, bureaucratic deformations, and other problems and contradictions that are not the consequence of “bad leaders” or because socialism is unworkable.

The single biggest and most enduring problem for Cuba, however, is the unceasing war waged against the heroic island nation by the most powerful Empire in history.

So, what can we do here? It is by intensifying the revolutionary struggle of the working and poor people in the United States against the Empire that we can render the greatest service to our inspiring and steadfast counterparts in the land of Marti.

As we do that, the PSL will also promote an independent assessment of the political and economic situation in Cuba.

The Vegan Marxist
22nd September 2010, 02:41
Thanks for sharing this Comrade. As we've all been trying to point out here on RevLeft, hopefully the PSL's more dynamic analysis of Cuba will help gain more answers for all the questions asked here on the forum.

BuddhaInBabylon
22nd September 2010, 03:19
The PSL here in DC is gonna have this session on Friday...unfortunately i won't make it to this next meeting, so i appreciated this. Thanks man.

Saorsa
22nd September 2010, 10:26
Interesting, seems pretty solid. La Riva's extended report (http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14494) is well worth a read as well.

We don't know what's happening in Cuba yet or how this will play out. I don't want to jump to conclusions early on.

Kassad
22nd September 2010, 15:00
Interesting, seems pretty solid. La Riva's extended report (http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14494) is well worth a read as well.

We don't know what's happening in Cuba yet or how this will play out. I don't want to jump to conclusions early on.

I'm almost finished with it. Her report is really in-depth and builds on a lot of experiences she has had visiting Cuba over the last few decades. The most sad part is that Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now, but many opportunistic groups are going to take this opportunity to join hands with imperialism in attacking Cuba.

The Vegan Marxist
22nd September 2010, 15:21
I'm almost finished with it. Her report is really in-depth and builds on a lot of experiences she has had visiting Cuba over the last few decades. The most sad part is that Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now, but many opportunistic groups are going to take this opportunity to join hands with imperialism in attacking Cuba.

Which in RevLeft's case is the ISO's & "state-capitalist" theorists.

pranabjyoti
22nd September 2010, 16:54
I am requesting all to visit the thread at http://www.revleft.com/vb/mutual-cooperation-between-t141885/index.html and read the news there. At this moment, in my opinion, not just support but some real action is necessary from both sides, we supporters of Cuban revolution and the state of Cuba. The real solution to the present scenario is development of science and technology in not only Cuba but also in all bolivarian countries with mutual cooperation. Radical new technologies can help Cuba and other Latin American countries to come out of the crisis in short time.
If any Cuban citizen is reading this message, kindly convey it your authority and try to make them understand that THIS IS THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION.

chegitz guevara
22nd September 2010, 16:58
Which in RevLeft's case is the ISO's & "state-capitalist" theorists.

Don't forget anti-revisionists.

bricolage
22nd September 2010, 17:16
I'm almost finished with it. Her report is really in-depth and builds on a lot of experiences she has had visiting Cuba over the last few decades. The most sad part is that Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now, but many opportunistic groups are going to take this opportunity to join hands with imperialism in attacking Cuba.
Much as I may disagree with the article I'm not going to bring all that up but I did want to ask one question. You write 'Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now' but what does this actually mean? What does this defence entail (is it just a matter of party line, or theoretical considerations, ie. articles like this, or is it something more practical?) and why does Cuba 'need' it?

The Vegan Marxist
22nd September 2010, 20:41
Don't forget anti-revisionists.

Anti-revisionists? Most anti-revisionists that I know are Marxist-Leninists who support countries like Cuba. The PSL is a great example of such.

Kassad
22nd September 2010, 20:42
Much as I may disagree with the article I'm not going to bring all that up but I did want to ask one question. You write 'Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now' but what does this actually mean? What does this defence entail (is it just a matter of party line, or theoretical considerations, ie. articles like this, or is it something more practical?) and why does Cuba 'need' it?

If you read through the article, you'll see that we mention how the PSL is struggling for Cuba's independence and socialist construction. We are adamant defenders of the Cuban Revolution and we've been involved in struggles to defend Cuba from slander and imperialism, to free the Cuban Five, to deport Luis Posada Carilles and other things. We consider ourselves close with the Communist Party of Cuba and we uphold the monumental gains of the revolution.

It stuns me that you would ask why we defend Cuba. In truth, you are no communist if you can't find a reason to defend an independent nation from imperialism. Cuba has struggled through immense hardship in the face of the blockade and the threat of invasion. The Cuban people need our solidarity and our support at all times against the menace of imperialism.

Kassad
22nd September 2010, 20:44
Anti-revisionists? Most anti-revisionists that I know are Marxist-Leninists who support countries like Cuba. The PSL is a great example of such.

That's just frankly not true. PSL members do not consider themselves anti-revisionists and anti-revisionists (Hoxhaists and many Maoists) consider Cuba capitalist and call for political revolution against the Communist Party of Cuba. Authentic Marxists defend Cuba, yes, but a lot of people who consider themselves anti-revisionists certainly do not.

The Vegan Marxist
22nd September 2010, 20:48
You write 'Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now' but what does this actually mean? What does this defence entail (is it just a matter of party line, or theoretical considerations, ie. articles like this, or is it something more practical?)

From people like those who support the dismantling of the Cuban state, which is an indirect support in imperialist causes. To show solidarity to our Socialist brothers & sisters in Cuba that are continuously being attacked by so-called "leftists" & the right-wing.


and why does Cuba 'need' it?

:confused:

Do you deny any strength in propaganda, especially one used to help fuel imperialist actions? Cuba is just right under one of the most powerful imperialist country in the world, a country I might add that were even willing to form false-flag attacks in order to dismantle Cuba (Operation Northwoods). We must defend Cuba against such propaganda, because if we don't, & the US gains popular support in the invasion of Cuba, the consequences to such would be highly detrimental.

The Vegan Marxist
22nd September 2010, 20:50
That's just frankly not true. PSL members do not consider themselves anti-revisionists and anti-revisionists (Hoxhaists and many Maoists) consider Cuba capitalist and call for political revolution against the Communist Party of Cuba. Authentic Marxists defend Cuba, yes, but a lot of people who consider themselves anti-revisionists certainly do not.

I know plenty of people in the PSL who see themselves as anti-revisionist. I don't see exactly why any anti-revisionist would be against Cuba whatsoever, given that they're not embracing a revisionist line. I guess using the PSL as an example was incorrect, but another example would be Fight Back!, since they embrace an anti-revisionist line & are in direct support of Socialist Cuba.

UPDATE: I'll also add that those that see Cuba & any other Socialist country left as "state-capitalist" do not uphold Lenin whatsoever, & rather remain as Marxist "anti-revisionists". This is where I find a clear line of difference between the anti-revisionism that I promote & the "anti-revisionism" that the "state-capitalist" theorists promote, where I see myself as a Marxist-Leninist anti-revisionist. Given the anti-revisionist line Lenin upheld:

“It cannot be disputed that these arguments of the revisionists amounted to a fairly well-balanced system of views, namely, the old and well-known liberal-bourgeois views.” – V. I. Lenin, “Marxism and Revisionism”

bricolage
22nd September 2010, 20:59
It stuns me that you would ask why we defend Cuba.
I wasn't asking why you do, that is obvious from your political considerations. I get confused by the term 'defence' though, does it mean you will argue in favour of Cuba? Does it mean you will shoot guns for Cuba? Does it mean something else? And so forth, getting even more confusing when people separate 'political defence' from 'military defence'. When I mentioned need I was referring to why Cuba needs your support, what is that the PSL can do that Cuba could not survive without? I'm not trying to give it the 'ooo, you are a small grouping' business, everyone on this forum if they belong to a group belongs to a small one, such is the state of the world. I just find it interesting when such groups elevate themselves to the position of 'defenders' and what this entails, especially seeing as the latter is never really clarified.


We must defend Cuba against such propaganda
This is a clearer answer, in that it frames defence as a propaganda mission as opposed to an abstract ideal.

Sam_b
22nd September 2010, 21:29
Which in RevLeft's case is the ISO's & "state-capitalist" theorists.

Which franky from yourself if the usual load of petty garbage. This is a not so very veiled and a not so very informed attack on those adhering to the International Socialist tradition and analysis of state capitalism, which you must evidently fail to understand if you see this as lining up and supporting imperialism against the Cuban state. Our tradition has said on numerous occasions that we admire the advances made by the Cuban state such as healthcare and education, but these alone do not make it socialist and does not remove itself from being complicit in the past with attacks on the LGBT and trade union movements. We defend Cuba, as well as any other country threatened by imperialism, from attack.

Keep sounding like a stereotype all you want in your support for the Castro dynasty, but don't misinterpret our position because you evidently don't know it.

The Vegan Marxist
22nd September 2010, 21:34
We defend Cuba, as well as any other country threatened by imperialism, from attack.


Keep sounding like a stereotype all you want in your support for the Castro dynasty

:rolleyes:

S.Artesian
22nd September 2010, 21:36
We ought not to conflate defense of the Cuban people from the attacks of US capitalism with endorsement of the announced economic reforms. The former is not the latter, and stating that the "reforms" amount to a significant retreat from socialized relations of production, and an advance for capitalist relations of production does not amount to endorsing capitalism, imperialist attack, blockade.

As the PSL article points out Cuba isn't China. Neither is Cuba post war-communism Russia, neither are these reforms equivalent to a NEP, as the intention of the Cuban policy is to dramatically reduce the state's expansive role in the economy for the long term, while the NEP was always presented as a temporary expediency.

This issue is not one of saying "Aha! I told you so. Cuba really is state-capitalist." Nor is it one of saying, "See, there is no such thing as socialism in one country." The issue is what class forces are going to be strengthened by this "reform." The issue is will these policies bring suffering to a section of the population, and if so, what section and with what benefit for the society as a whole?

As far as the "189,000 parasites," adults of working age who don't work and don't study.. that's a red herring. These policies are not tightening up loopholes, and strengthening equality. These policies are wholesale changes to the employment, the compensation, the reproduction of the working class as a whole, as a class.

Any "long time" economist who tries to make this an issue of "parasitism" is simply trying to muddy the waters. And I say that with the greatest respect for my Cuban comrades.

Of course we can think that changes Cuba aren't part of the class struggle, a continuation of the class struggle that saw the collapse of the fSU and the embedding of maquiladora capitalism by the CPC in China, a struggle that is undermining the revolutionary process in Venezuela, that is making workers in Greece, Spain, Africa pay through the nose, and we can call that "thinking" a defense, but last time I checked denial of reality was a psychopathology and not Marxist investigation.

gorillafuck
22nd September 2010, 21:58
I'm almost finished with it. Her report is really in-depth and builds on a lot of experiences she has had visiting Cuba over the last few decades. The most sad part is that Cuba needs our defense more than ever right now, but many opportunistic groups are going to take this opportunity to join hands with imperialism in attacking Cuba.
Threats to Cuba aren't from stemming from a lack of support from communist groups in the United States. They're from economic warfare and being squeezed out due to being a state that defies the dominant economic system during a period of international crisis. The best thing for communist organizations worldwide to do would be to either give material aid to Cuba (which none of them have the means to do) or to organize class struggle within our own respective countries.

Sam_b
22nd September 2010, 22:01
Rolling Eyes Smiley

Great comeback, champ. Fancy explaining hoe seemingly anything less than unconditional support is aiding imperialism against Cuba?

Nothing Human Is Alien
22nd September 2010, 22:08
...anti-revisionists (Hoxhaists and many Maoists) consider Cuba capitalist and call for political revolution against the Communist Party of Cuba. Authentic Marxists defend Cuba, yes, but a lot of people who consider themselves anti-revisionists certainly do not.

You mean they call for "social revolution," as "political revolution" (i.e. a revolution that overthrows the government while keeping the current state and economy intact) is something called for by "Trotskyists."

Queercommie Girl
22nd September 2010, 22:21
That's just frankly not true. PSL members do not consider themselves anti-revisionists and anti-revisionists (Hoxhaists and many Maoists) consider Cuba capitalist and call for political revolution against the Communist Party of Cuba. Authentic Marxists defend Cuba, yes, but a lot of people who consider themselves anti-revisionists certainly do not.

That is frankly why I'm only a critical supporter of PSL rather than a member. (No offence intended)

I consider the political theory of anti-revisionism to be extremely important. It is a major part of my ideology. Of course, the theory would still need to be applied carefully to concrete situations. The problem IMO with many ultra-leftists, including ultra-left Maoists, is that they just carelessly apply "anti-revisionism" everywhere they can get their hands on. I disagree with the Maoist notion that the post-Stalin was completely capitalist for instance, despite it being highly deformed.

It's certainly too premature to consider Cuba's economic "reforms" right now revisionist. However, I believe any socialist with genuine credibility cannot deny the fact that the PRC today is basically pretty much totally fucked up by revisionist bureaucrats and elements that literally sell out the nation to Western imperialism. I don't mind co-operating with people who still consider China today to be partially socialist in substance, I'm not an ultra-leftist, but anyone who still thinks China today is still "basically ok" really needs a strong dose of "reality check" serum.

I've read your analysis on China, and frankly while I highly appreciate your detailed and obviously conscientious analysis, as well as the good work you've done in many areas from anti-imperialism to LGBT issues (and I'm a critical supporter of PSL) I'm still to the left of PSL politically and economically speaking.

bricolage
22nd September 2010, 22:23
That is frankly why I'm only a critical supporter of PSL rather than a member. (No offence intended)
Eh? Your profile says you live in London.

Queercommie Girl
22nd September 2010, 22:24
Eh? Your profile says you live in London.

Ok, but I wouldn't join PSL even if I were in the US. That's what I meant.

manic expression
22nd September 2010, 22:34
This is a very important piece, I'm still working my way through it. I hope to put this out in my community within the next few days, and I encourage others to disseminate this article as well. We need people, especially workers, to be thinking about and discussing these issues.


Which franky from yourself if the usual load of petty garbage. This is a not so very veiled and a not so very informed attack on those adhering to the International Socialist tradition and analysis of state capitalism, which you must evidently fail to understand if you see this as lining up and supporting imperialism against the Cuban state. Our tradition has said on numerous occasions that we admire the advances made by the Cuban state such as healthcare and education, but these alone do not make it socialist and does not remove itself from being complicit in the past with attacks on the LGBT and trade union movements. We defend Cuba, as well as any other country threatened by imperialism, from attack.

Keep sounding like a stereotype all you want in your support for the Castro dynasty, but don't misinterpret our position because you evidently don't know it.
You say that there is a "dynasty" that isn't a worker state, and yet it has achieved great advances in healthcare and education. Does one follow from the other? Are we to believe that a "dynasty" just felt like giving tremendous leaps in living standards to the workers on a whim?

I respect the defense of Cuba against imperialism, but it's important to establish what Cuba is not: it's not a dynasty, or else the progress you noted could hardly have happened in the first place. The only other times we've seen such progress is through a worker state, and Trotsky noted this quite clearly in the 1930's.


I wasn't asking why you do, that is obvious from your political considerations. I get confused by the term 'defence' though, does it mean you will argue in favour of Cuba? Does it mean you will shoot guns for Cuba? Does it mean something else? And so forth, getting even more confusing when people separate 'political defence' from 'military defence'. When I mentioned need I was referring to why Cuba needs your support, what is that the PSL can do that Cuba could not survive without? I'm not trying to give it the 'ooo, you are a small grouping' business, everyone on this forum if they belong to a group belongs to a small one, such is the state of the world. I just find it interesting when such groups elevate themselves to the position of 'defenders' and what this entails, especially seeing as the latter is never really clarified.
I think it's somewhat unspecified for a very good reason: the tactics that are required for the defense of socialism must remain flexible. Perhaps that defense would take the form of street demonstrations or strikes or political outreach or solidarity missions to Cuba or bake sales...that's not the point. The point is that we must stand united with our fellow revolutionaries in Cuba in this crucial hour.

Lyev
22nd September 2010, 23:05
You say that there is a "dynasty" that isn't a worker state, and yet it has achieved great advances in healthcare and education. Does one follow from the other? Are we to believe that a "dynasty" just felt like giving tremendous leaps in living standards to the workers on a whim?"Great advances in healthcare and education" aren't at all exclusive to socialism though, surely? Improvements in public services often seem to be as a result of pursuing Keynesian economic policies, for example, and Attlee's post-WWII government made some significant progress in these areas as well. Whilst I realise that such ("great"?) advances could certainly be connected to socialist development, it is, for me, somewhat erroneous to think "hang on a sec... good health and education... they must be socialist!". I'm just saying the two don't necessarily add up. Like you said, it's clearly an important issue, so we don't want anything obfuscating what is really going on in Cuba.

Queercommie Girl
22nd September 2010, 23:14
"Great advances in healthcare and education" aren't at all exclusive to socialism though, surely? It would seem improvements in public services can often seem to be a result of pursuing Keynesian economic policies, and Attlee's post-WWII government made some significant progress in these areas as well. Whilst I realise that such ("great"?) advances could certainly be connected to socialist development, it does just slightly erroneous to think "hang on a sec... good health and education... they must be socialist!". I'm just saying the two don't necessarily add up. Like you said, it's clearly an important issue, so we don't want anything obfuscating what is really going on in Cuba.

While what you said is partly true, I think it is basically impossible for a feudal dynasty to have the kind of social welfare you get in Cuba. Of course, Sam could just be making a metaphor, but to get what you have in Cuba you'd objectively need at least a left reformist/social democratic type government in the economic sense.

Not to mention that according to orthodox Trotskyism Cuba is indeed a deformed worker's state.

manic expression
22nd September 2010, 23:26
"Great advances in healthcare and education" aren't at all exclusive to socialism though, surely? It would seem improvements in public services can often seem to be a result of pursuing Keynesian economic policies, and Attlee's post-WWII government made some significant progress in these areas as well. Whilst I realise that such ("great"?) advances could certainly be connected to socialist development, it does just slightly erroneous to think "hang on a sec... good health and education... they must be socialist!". I'm just saying the two don't necessarily add up. Like you said, it's clearly an important issue, so we don't want anything obfuscating what is really going on in Cuba.
Yes and no, IMO. First, let's not forget that Cuba never came close to the industrialization of Britain or the US or indeed western Europe. The lines of development between Cuba and the UK are entirely different, almost alien to one another. That makes the comparison already a problematic one, and we have to ask ourselves why Cuba saw such progress while Jamaica or Colombia or the Dominican Republic did not. Second, we should look at the specifics related to both: Cuban healthcare was the result of a revolutionary reorganization of society, whatever our opinions of the history, the development of Cuban healthcare mirrored the expropriation of capitalist property after 1959. I suppose you're right in that sense, it's not just about the improvements, it's the how they were made.

Agnapostate
22nd September 2010, 23:27
Brian's a smart guy, very historical, always full of interesting facts.

RadioRaheem84
23rd September 2010, 01:02
How can attacks on Cuba be justified? We are talking about the difference in social programs between a capitalist nation like the UK who afforded social programs through concessions from the ruling class because they had large surplus abroad vs a tiny agricultural nation with no reserves to exploit. By the 70s the UK exhausted it's Keynesian model and the Cuban economy was still rolling. Even in it's worst periods the little island did not succumb to opening it's borders for exploitation. It never had a real chance to advance socially like a western nation. It did it through central planning. There is a big difference.

S.Artesian
23rd September 2010, 01:56
Who's attacking Cuba here?

anticap
23rd September 2010, 02:14
Which in RevLeft's case is the ISO's & "state-capitalist" theorists.

I don't understand this line of thinking. Why can't someone support the ISO, and/or theorize about Cuba being state-capitalist, while simultaneously supporting the Cuban people against imperialism?

The Vegan Marxist
23rd September 2010, 02:24
I don't understand this line of thinking. Why can't someone support the ISO, and/or theorize about Cuba being state-capitalist, while simultaneously supporting the Cuban people against imperialism?

Is this besides the fact that the Cuban people support the Cuban worker's state? I don't understand where the "state-capitalist" theorists get the idea that they're supporting the Cuban people by going against the worker's state of Cuba.

RadioRaheem84
23rd September 2010, 02:31
Who's attacking Cuba here?

I meant insisting that it's economy is somehow akin to a social democratic one.

Can it not be said that maybe it is truly a socially democratic one? Not in the derogatory term that is used to describe Sweden or Denmark? One that doesn't rely on a privileged position to afford concessions. One that doesn't rely on total compromise with the capitalist class.

anticap
23rd September 2010, 02:32
Is this besides the fact that the Cuban people support the Cuban worker's state? I don't understand where the "state-capitalist" theorists get the idea that they're supporting the Cuban people by going against the worker's state of Cuba.

I don't see how theorizing about the nature of the Cuban state is going against it in any substantive way.

The Vegan Marxist
23rd September 2010, 02:33
I don't see how theorizing about the nature of the Cuban state is going against it in any substantive way.

Well you can theorize all you want, I don't see why not. I just don't support the theoretical critiques that the ISO does on countries like Cuba.

Charles Xavier
23rd September 2010, 03:50
This is one of the best writen pieces of analysis on the changes in Cuba writen so far. So far I've only seen Trotskyite or bourgeoisie attacks on Cuba. Thanks for posting this Kassad.

bricolage
23rd September 2010, 16:45
Is this besides the fact that the Cuban people support the Cuban worker's state?
Most people in most states support the state they live in. It's just populism though if you base your praxis upon this.

The Vegan Marxist
23rd September 2010, 16:55
Most people in most states support the state they live in. It's just populism though if you base your praxis upon this.

Populism yes, but don't we also have put in perspective on the contradictions between said populist movements, where one bases its mentality on the free-market system, where the other bases its mentality on socialism? Or is a populist a populist no matter what ideology they operate under to you?

bricolage
23rd September 2010, 17:07
Populism yes, but don't we also have put in perspective on the contradictions between said populist movements, where one bases its mentality on the free-market system, where the other bases its mentality on socialism? Or is a populist a populist no matter what ideology they operate under to you?
Populism has always wrapped itself in left rhetoric, thats nothing new. In any case I wasn't really saying Castro et al were populists, more anyone who uses 'the people support the state' as a reason to support said state.

vyborg
23rd September 2010, 20:09
here a marxist analisis on the topic http://www.marxist.com/where-is-cuba-going-capitalism-or-socialism.htm

Sam_b
23rd September 2010, 21:48
I just don't support the theoretical critiques that the ISO does on countries like Cuba.

It's just a shame you can't actually tell us why, aside from a load of crap about it aiding US imperialism.

You probably should withdraw that if you can't back it up.

The Vegan Marxist
23rd September 2010, 22:25
It's just a shame you can't actually tell us why, aside from a load of crap about it aiding US imperialism.

You probably should withdraw that if you can't back it up.

Because, as sound as their critiques may seem, they surround their critiques on an already developed idea that the countries they're critiquing are not socialist. They do not correctly point out if they're socialist or not, rather claim they're not, & then use their theories to try & explain the events taking place. Take Cuba for example. Whenever any of us ask these ISO bullshitters which class overthrew the Batista regime, they can't answer, because if they did, then their entire theory collapses, because their theory only works if the country is in fact Capitalist, which they're not.

S.Artesian
23rd September 2010, 23:12
Because, as sound as their critiques may seem, they surround their critiques on an already developed idea that the countries they're critiquing are not socialist. They do not correctly point out if they're socialist or not, rather claim they're not, & then use their theories to try & explain the events taking place. Take Cuba for example. Whenever any of us ask these ISO bullshitters which class overthrew the Batista regime, they can't answer, because if they did, then their entire theory collapses, because their theory only works if the country is in fact Capitalist, which they're not.

That question can be answered easily: the proletariat. However, that in and of itself does not make the Cuban economy a socialist economy. It may be "transitional," it may be collectivized, but those things are not, or not yet, socialist-- two other things have to be present, and more than present, active. One is the technical development of the economy to the point where scarcity is eliminated. The other is, of course, the practical direction of the economy through organizations of producers and consumers themselves.

These two things do not exist in isolation from each other but enable each other, actually exist in each other.

And those two things do not exist in Cuba.

Be that as it may, the practical issues, the programmatic issues are those of contradiction and transformation. What social relations are being generated by the Cuban economy in its isolation from and participation in the world markets and what are the possible outcomes?

Those are the same issues that defined the history of the fSU, that determine the outcome of the processes under way in China, Vietnam, etc.

If you don't want to deal with that, then what you're really avoiding in characterizing Cuba as socialist, and leaving it at that, is class struggle-- the class struggle that goes on because there aren't first worlds, second worlds, and third worlds on this planet, but only one world, and that's the world of the world markets.

Cuba's "reforms" are driven by the same forces driving against workers in Greece, causing 20 percent unemployment in Spain, attacking immigrant workers in the US, in Europe, in Africa-- the same forces that brought the fSU to ground. It is the force of capital that needs to drive wages below subsistence levels.

What is astounding to me is that supposed Marxists refuse to even examine the content of these reforms in view of world economic conditions, refuse to even question the impact of these reforms on the living standards of the working class, rush to defend the "right" of Cuba to institute these reforms as "NEP-like," and never for a second admit or acknowledge what the result of such policies might be, much less will probably be, and not to mention must be.

To our "Marxist" commentators, there's no class struggle in Cuba, except when they somehow want to argue that socialism doesn't mean the end of class struggle-- that "capitalist roaders" can be reproduced by socialism, but somehow when the state or the CP announces its policy changes, that's not class struggle. To our "Marxist" commentators the reforms don't amount to retreat; an undermining of the notions of equality that have been for so long the bedrock of all that is admirable in Cuba.

Kassad
24th September 2010, 01:10
It's just a shame you can't actually tell us why, aside from a load of crap about it aiding US imperialism.

You probably should withdraw that if you can't back it up.

Allow me to do it for him. Our analysis comes down to something quite simple. The PSL realizes that imperialism has been one of the largest, if not the largest, impediment to socialist construction. From Russia to Vietnam, Korea to Cuba, socialist revolutions are always opposed by imperialist assault, sanctions, threats or nearby militarization. This leads socialist countries that are normally underdeveloped and impoverished to be up against massive military superpowers. Unless socialist countries develop their military, it is nearly impossible to defend against foreign assault, but these countries aren't composed of stable economies. This usually results in the failure to meet human needs.

This combination of issues tends to result in counterrevolution or socialism being strangled in these countries. Because it is apparent that imperialism is a massive impediment to socialist countries developing their economies, it would be absurd to join hands with imperialism on issues such as criticizing socialist countries. For example, the Cuban people are standing resolute in defending their country, their sovereignty and their revolution. While the PSL stands right beside them, the ISO stands with the United States in attacking Fidel Castro, the Cuban people and the revolution.

That should strike a chord fucking immediately. When a socialist organization aligns with the United States, the largest imperialist power and a prime example of capitalist brutality on an issue, there is a problem. But the ISO doesn't really mind. They have no problem joining in with the chorus of Fox News, CNN and CBS in calling Fidel Castro a dictator. They have no problem attacking the gains of the Cuban Revolution. When the Cuban people need our support the most, the ISO consistently sticks with the forces of counterrevolution. Worked really good in the Soviet Union, right?

Despite what the proponents of "state capitalism" want to say, this issue is not difficult. Imperialism must be unconditionally opposed. Period. When you start to fade into the grey area, even if just a bit, you're still in support of the US war machine, the corporate media and the destructive nature of capitalism. Which side are you on? I know where we stand.

Queercommie Girl
24th September 2010, 01:19
Although I don't think my analysis of Cuba as it stands now is significantly different from that of the PSL, I do wish PSL would look into the Chinese situation a bit deeper, rather than saying there is absolutely no alternative other than the ruling CCP itself.

China today is very different from Cuba objectively. In Cuba radical Castro supporters to the left of the Cuban government itself are never thrown into jail, in China radical left Maoists often are. Cuba doesn't have something like the MCPC which calls for the complete overthrow of the government solely from a leftist position. Unless people start calling radical left Maoists "objective agents of Western imperialism", I do think people need to recognise that objectively speaking China today is fundamentally different from Cuba in many ways.

anticap
24th September 2010, 01:22
Despite what the proponents of "state capitalism" want to say, this issue is not difficult. Imperialism must be unconditionally opposed. Period. When you start to fade into the grey area, even if just a bit, you're still in support of the US war machine, the corporate media and the destructive nature of capitalism. Which side are you on? I know where we stand.

I appreciated your well-argued post, but I still don't see why someone can't theorize while still supporting the Cuban people against imperialism. Theorizing does not constitute betrayal. One does not "fade into the grey area" when one presents a critical theory -- not even if one qualifies their support based on that theory. The support can still be unconditional even if qualified.

gorillafuck
24th September 2010, 01:29
When the Cuban people need our support the most, the ISO consistently sticks with the forces of counterrevolution. Worked really good in the Soviet Union, right?
Just so I can get this clear, I am in favor of the Cuban government (somewhat critically, but definitely in favor nonetheless). But seriously, the reason Cuba is in a tough situation now isn't because of what some communist groups in America publish. The problems are because it has economic warfare directed against it and because of international isolation (though not as bad as it used to be). The ISO isn't contributing to any eventual downfall, and the PSL isn't keeping the revolution intact by publishing analysises.

KC
24th September 2010, 01:52
Just so I can get this clear, I am in favor of the Cuban government (somewhat critically, but definitely in favor nonetheless). But seriously, the reason Cuba is in a tough situation now isn't because of what some communist groups in America publish. The problems are because it has economic warfare directed against it and because of international isolation (though not as bad as it used to be). The ISO isn't contributing to any eventual downfall, and the PSL isn't keeping the revolution intact by publishing analysises.

I think both groups have an absolutely fascinating inflated sense of their own self importance.

Kassad
24th September 2010, 03:16
Just so I can get this clear, I am in favor of the Cuban government (somewhat critically, but definitely in favor nonetheless). But seriously, the reason Cuba is in a tough situation now isn't because of what some communist groups in America publish. The problems are because it has economic warfare directed against it and because of international isolation (though not as bad as it used to be). The ISO isn't contributing to any eventual downfall, and the PSL isn't keeping the revolution intact by publishing analysises.

Of course not. But the PSL has members visit Cuba every year. We've delivered millions of dollars of medical supplies and other necessities to Cuba to assist its people in need. We've struggled to free the Cuban Five and we've spread the word about the need for defense of the Cuban Revolution. We are very close allies with the Communist Party of Cuba and we defend them whenever possible. That's more than most other socialist groups can say.

gorillafuck
24th September 2010, 03:28
Of course not. But the PSL has members visit Cuba every year. We've delivered millions of dollars of medical supplies and other necessities to Cuba to assist its people in need.
The PSL has fucking millions of dollars?!:blink:

Crux
24th September 2010, 03:29
Allow me to do it for him. Our analysis comes down to something quite simple. The PSL realizes that imperialism has been one of the largest, if not the largest, impediment to socialist construction. From Russia to Vietnam, Korea to Cuba, socialist revolutions are always opposed by imperialist assault, sanctions, threats or nearby militarization. This leads socialist countries that are normally underdeveloped and impoverished to be up against massive military superpowers. Unless socialist countries develop their military, it is nearly impossible to defend against foreign assault, but these countries aren't composed of stable economies. This usually results in the failure to meet human needs.

This combination of issues tends to result in counterrevolution or socialism being strangled in these countries. Because it is apparent that imperialism is a massive impediment to socialist countries developing their economies, it would be absurd to join hands with imperialism on issues such as criticizing socialist countries. For example, the Cuban people are standing resolute in defending their country, their sovereignty and their revolution. While the PSL stands right beside them, the ISO stands with the United States in attacking Fidel Castro, the Cuban people and the revolution.

That should strike a chord fucking immediately. When a socialist organization aligns with the United States, the largest imperialist power and a prime example of capitalist brutality on an issue, there is a problem. But the ISO doesn't really mind. They have no problem joining in with the chorus of Fox News, CNN and CBS in calling Fidel Castro a dictator. They have no problem attacking the gains of the Cuban Revolution. When the Cuban people need our support the most, the ISO consistently sticks with the forces of counterrevolution. Worked really good in the Soviet Union, right?

Despite what the proponents of "state capitalism" want to say, this issue is not difficult. Imperialism must be unconditionally opposed. Period. When you start to fade into the grey area, even if just a bit, you're still in support of the US war machine, the corporate media and the destructive nature of capitalism. Which side are you on? I know where we stand.
I am not a proponent of state capitalism, nor do I necessarily defend the ISO, but that's a massive case of guilt by association. Unless of course you can show me the ISO calling for a U.S-backed overthrow of the cuban government.

Kassad
24th September 2010, 03:35
I am not a proponent of state capitalism, nor do I necessarily defend the ISO, but that's a massive case of guilt by association. Unless of course you can show me the ISO calling for a U.S-backed overthrow of the cuban government.

If the Cuban Revolution is overturned, who do you think is going to be behind it and support it? The US government has aided in counterrevolution across the globe and they are working towards it in Cuba. Calling for the destruction of the revolution will inevitably open the door to American influence.

Crux
24th September 2010, 03:46
If the Cuban Revolution is overturned, who do you think is going to be behind it and support it? The US government has aided in counterrevolution across the globe and they are working towards it in Cuba. Calling for the destruction of the revolution will inevitably open the door to American influence.
That's all fine and well. Now show me where the ISO calls for the destruction of the cuban revolution. Also, I'd hate to say it, but the PSL's view on foreign politics seems very U.S-centric.

Kassad
24th September 2010, 03:56
That's all fine and well. Now show me where the ISO calls for the destruction of the cuban revolution. Also, I'd hate to say it, but the PSL's view on foreign politics seems very U.S-centric.

I really don't have time right now to sift through SocialistWorker and find exact examples. However, I have had ISO members tell me (I attended their meetings for a long time) that they would applaud any progress in loosening the power of the Communist Party of Cuba. I have also been told that the collapse of the Soviet Union was progressive because the country was beyond repair and that Cuba basically needed a workers revolution against the Cuban government, which since the workers are in power and a revolution already happened, I would not be surprised to see them side with US-backed counterrevolutionaries, just like they did in China, the Soviet Union and across the socialist bloc as they applauded counterrevolution in Europe.

manic expression
24th September 2010, 03:56
That's all fine and well. Now show me where the ISO calls for the destruction of the cuban revolution. Also, I'd hate to say it, but the PSL's view on foreign politics seems very U.S-centric.
When it comes to Cuba especially, imperialism goes as the US goes. There's no denying that US imperialism is far and away the most pressing concern for anyone who wants to defend socialism in Cuba. I think the focus of the PSL's analysis is quite reasonable, given that reality.

Crux
24th September 2010, 04:12
I really don't have time right now to sift through SocialistWorker and find exact examples. However, I have had ISO members tell me (I attended their meetings for a long time) that they would applaud any progress in loosening the power of the Communist Party of Cuba. I have also been told that the collapse of the Soviet Union was progressive because the country was beyond repair and that Cuba basically needed a workers revolution against the Cuban government, which since the workers are in power and a revolution already happened, I would not be surprised to see them side with US-backed counterrevolutionaries, just like they did in China, the Soviet Union and across the socialist bloc as they applauded counterrevolution in Europe.
I am well aware of the shortcoming's of the state capitalist analysis, and the problems that created for them in evaluating what would be the effect of the fall of the Eastern Bloc, but what you are doing is freely admitting that the ISO calls for a worker's revolution in cuba.
Also, the ISO backed Deng Xiaoping? A rhetorical question, of course. Surely you must be aware that Milton Friedman was acting as an advisor for the CCP at the time and, incidentally, he too defended the massacre in Tianmen square. It, and many other movement's in the crumbling socialist states, had the potential to develop in a vastly different direction, namely that of political revolution.

And here to my point about your foreign policy being U.S-centric, I mean that in general not just in regard to the OP (where a special focus on the U.S might be justified). You forget that it's not just scheming agents of imperialism and ruling parties that make history move.

Barry Lyndon
24th September 2010, 04:19
Personally, I am still reserving judgement on what the Cuba reforms mean. My hope is that they are a necessary tactical retreat in the face of the combined pressure of the US blockade and the global economic crises in order to save the overall socialist system, and my fear is that they are the first steps down the same road of capitalist restoration that China took. But as S. Artesian pointed out, as Marxists we need to soberly assess the situation and not simply cling to what we want to be true-otherwise we end up like the VeganMarxist(sorry bud), who extols the sweatshop hellhole that China has become as 'socialist'.

As for the ISO, I wouldn't mind if their analysis of Cuba was just one I didn't agree with. The problem is that the ISO devotes itself to trashing Cuba relentlessly, running over every imperfection with a microscope, while never giving a seconds thought to the fact that many of deformities that exist in Cuba were just as bad or even worse in the Russia of Lenin and Trotsky(the one revolution in all of the 20th century that they consider worthy of upholding). After parroting right-wing myths about 'dictatorship', their articles tack on something about 'defending Cuba from imperialism' to remind you that your reading Socialist Worker and not the bulletin of the Cuban American National Foundation.

Their main source on Cuba is a fellow by the name of Samuel Farber, who in one of his essays about Cuba claimed that political dissidents were being thrown in mental hospitals, like the old Soviet Union-an assertion that he never bothered to back up with any evidence. He also wrote this contemptuous piece of trash claiming that Cuba intervened in Africa not to combat colonialism and apartheid, but to nefariously benefit itself and 'Soviet imperialism' (which is asserted over an over again but he fails to describe what great profits Cuba accrued from intervening in Angola, or that Cuba sent troops on its own initiative, barely notifying its Soviet ally):

http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/07/contradictions-of-cubas-foreign-policy

Among state-capitalist Trots like the ISO, I detect a whiff of sick 'I told you so' glee about these reforms- a total betrayal of Trotsky's principle of defending the progressive gains of deformed workers states.

The Vegan Marxist
24th September 2010, 04:27
Also, the ISO backed Deng Xiaoping?

I don't think he was talking about Deng. He's talking about the Tiananmen Square counterrevolutionary protests.

The Vegan Marxist
24th September 2010, 04:29
Personally, I am still reserving judgement on what the Cuba reforms mean. My hope is that they are a necessary tactical retreat in the face of the combined pressure of the US blockade and the global economic crises in order to save the overall socialist system, and my fear is that they are the first steps down the same road of capitalist restoration that China took. But as S. Artesian pointed out, as Marxists we need to soberly assess the situation and not simply cling to what we want to be true-otherwise we end up like the VeganMarxist(sorry bud), who extols the sweatshop hellhole that China has become as 'socialist'.

As for the ISO, I wouldn't mind if their analysis of Cuba was just one I didn't agree with. The problem is that the ISO devotes itself to trashing Cuba relentlessly, running over every imperfection with a microscope, while never giving a seconds thought to the fact that many of deformities that exist in Cuba were just as bad or even worse in the Russia of Lenin and Trotsky(the one revolution in all of the 20th century that they consider worthy of upholding). After parroting right-wing myths about 'dictatorship', their articles tack on something about 'defending Cuba from imperialism' to remind you that your reading Socialist Worker and not the bulletin of the Cuban American National Foundation.

Their main source on Cuba is a fellow by the name of Samuel Farber, who in one of his essays about Cuba claimed that political dissidents were being thrown in mental hospitals, like the old Soviet Union-an assertion that he never bothered to back up with any evidence. He also wrote this contemptuous piece of trash claiming that Cuba intervened in Africa not to combat colonialism and apartheid, but to nefariously benefit itself and 'Soviet (which is asserted over an over again but he fails to describe what great profits Cuba accrued from intervening in Angola, or that Cuba sent troops on its own initiative, barely notifying its Soviet ally):

http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/07/contradictions-of-cubas-foreign-policy

Among state-capitalist Trots like the ISO, I detect a whiff of sick 'I told you so' glee about these reforms- a total betrayal of Trotsky's principle of defending the progressive gains of deformed workers states.

Hell, even when the ISO attacks the Soviet Union, they go against Trotsky's views. Because fact of the matter is that, despite how against Trotsky was to Stalin, he still considered the Soviet Union a worker's State.

Crux
24th September 2010, 04:36
I don't think he was talking about Deng. He's talking about the Tiananmen Square counterrevolutionary protests.
Gee, really? You think? How great that the grand revolutionary leader Milton Friedman also acted as an apologists for the slaughter of the worker's and students on Tianmen square then. Again, just because U.S media tried to portray the Tianmen square protests favourably, and arguably as some kind of pro-capitalist protests, which they never were. While there were some pro-capitalist elements among the students, the protests themselfes were in direct reaction to the liberalizations of the economy carried out by CCP, under the guidance of Milton Friedman. Confusing counter-revolution and revolution is quite a dangerous thing to do.

Crux
24th September 2010, 04:38
Hell, even when the ISO attacks the Soviet Union, they go against Trotsky's views. Because fact of the matter is that, despite how against Trotsky was to Stalin, he still considered the Soviet Union a worker's State.
Because the measurement of how worker's state the soviet union was has anything to do with "how against" Stalin you are?

The Vegan Marxist
24th September 2010, 04:41
Gee, really? You think? How great that the grand revolutionary leader Milton Friedman also acted as an apologists for the slaughter of the worker's and students on Tianmen square then. Again, just because U.S media tried to portray the Tianmen square protests favourably, and arguably as some kind of pro-capitalist protests, which they never were. While there were some pro-capitalist elements among the students, the protests themselfes were in direct reaction to the liberalizations of the economy carried out by CCP, under the guidance of Milton Friedman. Confusing counter-revolution and revolution is quite a dangerous thing to do.

Some? I would recommend a better analysis (http://www.frso.org/about/statements/2009/tiananmen-kelly.pdf) of the Tiananmen protests.

The Vegan Marxist
24th September 2010, 04:43
Because the measurement of how worker's state the soviet union was has anything to do with "how against" Stalin you are?

What? I didn't say that. I was just pointing out the irony of how people like ISO use figures like Trotsky, due to how opposed he was to Stalin, to justify their beliefs that the Soviet Union was "state-capitalist", despite the fact that Trotsky himself even saw the Soviet Union as being Socialist.

Barry Lyndon
24th September 2010, 04:46
Gee, really? You think? How great that the grand revolutionary leader Milton Friedman also acted as an apologists for the slaughter of the worker's and students on Tianmen square then. Again, just because U.S media tried to portray the Tianmen square protests favourably, and arguably as some kind of pro-capitalist protests, which they never were. While there were some pro-capitalist elements among the students, the protests themselfes were in direct reaction to the liberalizations of the economy carried out by CCP, under the guidance of Milton Friedman. Confusing counter-revolution and revolution is quite a dangerous thing to do.

Majakovski is right about this one, and the PSL is disastrously wrong in parroting the CCP's lies about the massacre.
Here is a documentary about this disgusting crime called 'The Gate of Heavenly Peace' made by Camera Hinton, the daughter of William Hinton, the Maoist author of 'Fanshen':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ou2-Kv4UA

Crux
24th September 2010, 04:49
Some? I would recommend a better analysis (http://www.frso.org/about/statements/2009/tiananmen-kelly.pdf) of the Tiananmen protests.
I would recommend an eye-witness report by one of the CWI-comrades. (http://socialistworld.net/pubs/tiananmen/00.html)

Crux
24th September 2010, 04:57
What? I didn't say that. I was just pointing out the irony of how people like ISO use figures like Trotsky, due to how opposed he was to Stalin, to justify their beliefs that the Soviet Union was "state-capitalist", despite the fact that Trotsky himself even saw the Soviet Union as being Socialist.
I think it's far more ironic that the PSL supposedly still have works by Trotsky.

And yes I disagree with Tony Cliff's view of how the soviet union degenerated, in fact I find it wrong, flat out. But to say they use Trotsky just because of "how opposed he was to Stalin" reeks your usual superficial analysis. Now I don't intend to defend the ISO all day, but in regards to your last statement I have to question what you know of Trotsky's view of the Soviet Union? Have you even read the Revolution Betrayed? Or In Defense of Marxism, since we are discussing state capitalist theories?

The Vegan Marxist
24th September 2010, 04:58
Majakovski is right about this one, and the PSL is disastrously wrong in parroting the CCP's lies about the massacre.
Here is a documentary about this disgusting crime called 'The Gate of Heavenly Peace' made by Camera Hinton, the daughter of William Hinton, the Maoist author of 'Fanshen':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ou2-Kv4UA

I tried watching that documentary, but it's 3/4 chinese, with the first video being the only one with English subs.

Barry Lyndon
24th September 2010, 05:02
I tried watching that documentary, but it's 3/4 chinese, with the first video being the only one with English subs.

I'm sorry, I'll try to find another one, it was the first one I could find on short notice. :tongue_smilie:

The Vegan Marxist
24th September 2010, 05:03
I think it's far more ironic that the PSL supposedly still have works by Trotsky.

And yes I disagree with Tony Cliff's view of how the soviet union degenerated, in fact I find it wrong, flat out. But to say they use Trotsky just because of "how opposed he was to Stalin" reeks your usual superficial analysis. Now I don't intend to defend the ISO all day, but in regards to your last statement I have to question what you know of Trotsky's view of the Soviet Union? Have you even read the Revolution Betrayed? Or In Defense of Marxism, since we are discussing state capitalist theories?

Nope, can't say that I have.

And when it comes to Trotsky on the Soviet Union, I'll try & find where Trotsky specifically stated that the Soviet Union remained a degenerated workers state. So I'm going to have to get back with you on that.

Crux
24th September 2010, 05:05
Nope, can't say that I have.

And when it comes to Trotsky on the Soviet Union, I'll try & find where Trotsky specifically stated that the Soviet Union remained a degenerated workers state. So I'm going to have to get back with you on that.
I'd say In Defense of Marxism is a good place to start. I mean, in the end the point I am trying to make is that holding a state capitalist theory of cuba does not mean you support imperialism.

redasheville
24th September 2010, 05:33
Allow me to do it for him. Our analysis comes down to something quite simple. The PSL realizes that imperialism has been one of the largest, if not the largest, impediment to socialist construction. From Russia to Vietnam, Korea to Cuba, socialist revolutions are always opposed by imperialist assault, sanctions, threats or nearby militarization. This leads socialist countries that are normally underdeveloped and impoverished to be up against massive military superpowers. Unless socialist countries develop their military, it is nearly impossible to defend against foreign assault, but these countries aren't composed of stable economies. This usually results in the failure to meet human needs.

This combination of issues tends to result in counterrevolution or socialism being strangled in these countries. Because it is apparent that imperialism is a massive impediment to socialist countries developing their economies, it would be absurd to join hands with imperialism on issues such as criticizing socialist countries. For example, the Cuban people are standing resolute in defending their country, their sovereignty and their revolution. While the PSL stands right beside them, the ISO stands with the United States in attacking Fidel Castro, the Cuban people and the revolution.

That should strike a chord fucking immediately. When a socialist organization aligns with the United States, the largest imperialist power and a prime example of capitalist brutality on an issue, there is a problem. But the ISO doesn't really mind. They have no problem joining in with the chorus of Fox News, CNN and CBS in calling Fidel Castro a dictator. They have no problem attacking the gains of the Cuban Revolution. When the Cuban people need our support the most, the ISO consistently sticks with the forces of counterrevolution. Worked really good in the Soviet Union, right?

Despite what the proponents of "state capitalism" want to say, this issue is not difficult. Imperialism must be unconditionally opposed. Period. When you start to fade into the grey area, even if just a bit, you're still in support of the US war machine, the corporate media and the destructive nature of capitalism. Which side are you on? I know where we stand.

The ISO does not align itself with The United States over Cuba. That is a complete lie. The ISO has always opposed the embargo and any intervention into Cuba's affairs from the United States or any imperialist power. We have been explicit about this. It is in the "Where We Stand" section of every issue of Socialist Worker.

I had a more thorough explanation of our position on Cuba (which actually there are some differing shades of opinion on the question in the ISO) but I don't really think this post deserves a serious response. Anyone wanting to discuss the ISO's position on Cuba is free to call me (PM me and I'll send you my number), or we can Skype or talk over iChat or something.

KC
24th September 2010, 05:41
http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?p=1873689#post1873689) Allow me to do it for him. Our analysis comes down to something quite simple.

It is quite simple. If you're not with "us" (i.e. whomever you deem "anti-imperialist," which appears to be at this point anyone that opposes the US, which again is open to interpretation) then you must be against us (i.e. you're an imperialist yourself and/or support imperialists).

There you go. I saved you a ton of time, effort and paper. All you have to do from now on is publish this along with a list of who the anti-imperialists are and everyone will know where you stand, where we stand, and your position on literally everything that happens on earth.

EDIT: This is no exaggeration, either:



Despite what the proponents of "state capitalism" want to say, this issue is not difficult. Imperialism must be unconditionally opposed. Period. When you start to fade into the grey area, even if just a bit, you're still in support of the US war machine, the corporate media and the destructive nature of capitalism. Which side are you on? I know where we stand.

Rusty Shackleford
24th September 2010, 08:00
Yes Majakovskij we do still have works of trotsky in the library. We have works by Hoxha, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Marx, Engels, Castro, Guevara, etc. etc. too.


We are Hoxaistic Trotskyites of the Maoist-Focoist Tradition, hell i wouldnt be surpised if we were Luxemburgists too.

im not making an attack, im making a sory of sassy confirmation that yes, we do still have works by trotsky laying around. :lol:

Devrim
24th September 2010, 09:03
We are Hoxaistic Trotskyites of the Maoist-Focoist Tradition, hell i wouldnt be surpised if we were Luxemburgists too.

I'd be absolutely amazed.

Devrim

Queercommie Girl
24th September 2010, 10:05
Gee, really? You think? How great that the grand revolutionary leader Milton Friedman also acted as an apologists for the slaughter of the worker's and students on Tianmen square then. Again, just because U.S media tried to portray the Tianmen square protests favourably, and arguably as some kind of pro-capitalist protests, which they never were. While there were some pro-capitalist elements among the students, the protests themselfes were in direct reaction to the liberalizations of the economy carried out by CCP, under the guidance of Milton Friedman. Confusing counter-revolution and revolution is quite a dangerous thing to do.

Now the interesting thing is that my left Maoist friends in the MCPC would probably agree with you on Tiananmen as intrinsically being a "mass movement".

However, I think the real picture is somewhat more complicated. It would be hard to believe that those people that constructed the "goddess of liberty" aren't pro-US in some ways at least, and even though I certainly oppose the massacre itself, I wouldn't call the relatively disorganised state of the protesting students a "political revolution". Actually working class participation in the Tiananmen movement is rather minimal, especially towards the end of the period.

Basically, I think Steve Jolly has made too much out of the movement. The objective quality of this movement, even though much of it can indeed be labelled as relatively progressive, isn't really that high. I don't think it is objectively possible for students to lead any kind of political revolution without very strong working class support.

Another point on which I differ from Jolly is that he seems to think that after the Tiananmen massacre, basically the CCP as a whole should just be completely written off. But actually objectively speaking even today among the grassroots layers of the CCP in China, there are still many genuine socialists to varying degrees. Even a considerable amount of Trotskyists in mainland China are associated with the CCP. I think we can pretty much write-off the ruling bloc of the CCP, but not the entire CCP. Keep in mind that most of the lower layers of the CCP membership are still middle class or working class from an objective economical point of view.

An analogy is that in the UK today, even though the New Labour leadership is pretty much hopeless, there are still many partially genuine socialists among the grassroots layers of the party.

Queercommie Girl
24th September 2010, 11:24
It is quite simple. If you're not with "us" (i.e. whomever you deem "anti-imperialist," which appears to be at this point anyone that opposes the US, which again is open to interpretation) then you must be against us (i.e. you're an imperialist yourself and/or support imperialists).

There you go. I saved you a ton of time, effort and paper. All you have to do from now on is publish this along with a list of who the anti-imperialists are and everyone will know where you stand, where we stand, and your position on literally everything that happens on earth.

EDIT: This is no exaggeration, either:

Kassad would be right if he is talking about imperialism in the strict Marxist sense rather than in a loose "anti-US" sense, there are no "grey areas". It's like class conflict itself.

Any socialist who is not seriously anti-imperialist is not a genuine socialist, period. Imperialism is the most reactionary manifestation of capitalism in general. Even third-campist Trotskyists like the ISO understand the importance of anti-imperialism.

bricolage
24th September 2010, 11:28
The PSL has fucking millions of dollars?!:blink:
Can someone come back on this, how did the PSL get 'millions of dollars of medical supplies'?

Queercommie Girl
24th September 2010, 11:57
Regarding the ISO. Well personally I just like the theoretical analysis the British SWP has on many sociological issues, like LGBT rights for instance. In the UK, the SWP is arguably the Trotskyist group that is on the whole the most pro-LGBT, though in recent years they have been criticised for being too Islamophilic.

I certainly don't agree with the theory of state-capitalism at all, I think it is essentially a revisionist theory that deviates from orthodox Trotskyism. But I don't think the ISO is in any way subjectively pro-imperialist. Whether or not they are objectively pro-imperialist would depend on the exact nature of their analysis on Cuba etc, which since I haven't read, I'm not really qualified to comment on.

That said, I was quite worried by Sam's comment that Cuba is a "Castro dynasty" though. That just seems to be parroting the reactionary Western liberal bourgeois line against Cuba which even the orthodox ISO position would definitely not agree with I'm sure. The orthodox Cliffite line would imply that even though Cuba is state-capitalist, being an ex-colonial country that acquired victory over Western imperialism, it is still a relatively progressive kind of state-capitalism, and certainly not a "feudal dynasty". If Cuba is literally considered to be "feudal", then objectively even the conquest of Cuba by US imperialism might be relatively progressive, as capitalism is more progressive than feudalism.

bricolage
24th September 2010, 12:46
You don't have to be feudal to have a dynasty you know.

Kassad
24th September 2010, 16:02
Can someone come back on this, how did the PSL get 'millions of dollars of medical supplies'?

Here's what I'm not going to do. Talk about how we raise money and how we manage our funding on a public website with right-wingers reading..

pierrotlefou
24th September 2010, 16:52
The PSL here in DC is gonna have this session on Friday...unfortunately i won't make it to this next meeting, so i appreciated this. Thanks man.
I will be there. I'm curious to see what they say.

gorillafuck
24th September 2010, 19:56
Here's what I'm not going to do. Talk about how we raise money and how we manage our funding on a public website with right-wingers reading..
Would PM's be an acceptable way for you to tell me how the PSL apparently has millions of dollars?

S.Artesian
24th September 2010, 21:45
Would PM's be an acceptable way for you to tell me how the PSL apparently has millions of dollars?


He didn't say PSL has millions of dollars. He said PSL was able to raise millions of dollars in medical supplies for Cuba. Quite different things. Several groups have raised similar amounts in goods for Cuba. It's the old equivalence of money and commodities that seems to have you in twist.

Lyev
25th September 2010, 15:31
I wonder if any PSL comrades can give any information about the forming independent trade-unions in Cuba? I just wonder because if workers in Cuba want to oppose these economic reforms then they will have a hard time doing so, as far as I know, if they're trying to campaign against them through the unions controlled by the PCC and the government. Similar to what S. Artesian said, it's utterly wrong to put these in the same category as the changes made in Russia under the NEP. The NEP wasn't considered, at least by those in the Bolshevik party etc., as a deviation from "true", so to speak, socialist construction in the long run; it was just a momentary set-back due to famine, the civil war etc. etc.

If this isn't taken in the same context of what's going everywhere in the world - the global economic crises and the ensuing austerity - and instead categorized as a mere deviation from otherwise credible socialism then it drops millions of Cuban workers into somewhat of an impasse. If fighting these reforms was carried out, in any way, independently of the existing social structure, then would the workers be labeled as "counterrevolutionary", "imperialists" etc.? I don't know. Anyway, what I mean is I side with the Cuban working class over Castro and the PCC and the PCC-controlled unions. And I'm not trying to being sectarian and whatnot, I'm just interested, so, please, no-one bite my head off.

Devrim
25th September 2010, 15:42
If this isn't taken in the same context of what's going everywhere in the world - the global economic crises and the ensuing austerity - and instead categorized as a mere deviation from otherwise credible socialism then it drops millions of Cuban workers into somewhat of an impasse.

If this is taken in the context of the global economic crisis, it is quite clear what is happening. Cuba, like virtually all other capitalist states, is being forced to implement austerity measures against the working class.

Devrim

Lyev
25th September 2010, 15:55
If this is taken in the context of the global economic crisis, it is quite clear what is happening. Cuba, like virtually all other capitalist states, is being forced to implement austerity measures against the working class.

DevrimThis is pretty much what I mean. Cuba can't operate, somehow, outside of the whole world economy. They, like everyone, are forced into making reforms like the ones we are now seeing. If this is Cuba merely "deviating from true socialism", or something to that effect, then it will be a rather thorny issue for all the Cuban workers wanting to defend their class interests, I think. But I don't want to form a position fully until someone provides some good info on the subject.

Devrim
25th September 2010, 16:32
This is pretty much what I mean. Cuba can't operate, somehow, outside of the whole world economy. They, like everyone, are forced into making reforms like the ones we are now seeing. If this is Cuba merely "deviating from true socialism", or something to that effect, then it will be a rather thorny issue for all the Cuban workers wanting to defend their class interests, I think. But I don't want to form a position fully until someone provides some good info on the subject.

OK, there are three basic positions that you can take on Cuba;

1) It is socialist. This is the position held by Stalinists.
2) It is a deformed workers' state. This is the position held by most Trotskyists including, I think, your organisation, the CWI
3) It is capitalist. This is the position held by some Trotskyists, left communists, and most anarchists (You sometimes see state put in front of the capitalist.

That is very basic, but obviously your understanding of the events going on at the moment is deeply influenced by how you see the relations of production in Cuba. Personally I favour the third.

Devrim

Queercommie Girl
25th September 2010, 16:35
OK, there are three basic positions that you can take on Cuba;

1) It is socialist. This is the position held by Stalinists.
2) It is a deformed workers' state. This is the position held by most Trotskyists including, I think, your organisation, the CWI
3) It is capitalist. This is the position held by some Trotskyists, left communists, and most anarchists (You sometimes see state put in front of the capitalist.

That is very basic, but obviously your understanding of the events going on at the moment is deeply influenced by how you see the relations of production in Cuba. Personally I favour the third.

Devrim

My own view is somewhere between 1) and 2).

Interesting to note though that some left Maoists would actually go for option 3), putting them objectively to the left of orthodox Trotskyism.

Queercommie Girl
25th September 2010, 17:08
I wonder if any PSL comrades can give any information about the forming independent trade-unions in Cuba? I just wonder because if workers in Cuba want to oppose these economic reforms then they will have a hard time doing so, as far as I know, if they're trying to campaign against them through the unions controlled by the PCC and the government. Similar to what S. Artesian said, it's utterly wrong to put these in the same category as the changes made in Russia under the NEP. The NEP wasn't considered, at least by those in the Bolshevik party etc., as a deviation from "true", so to speak, socialist construction in the long run; it was just a momentary set-back due to famine, the civil war etc. etc.

If this isn't taken in the same context of what's going everywhere in the world - the global economic crises and the ensuing austerity - and instead categorized as a mere deviation from otherwise credible socialism then it drops millions of Cuban workers into somewhat of an impasse. If fighting these reforms was carried out, in any way, independently of the existing social structure, then would the workers be labeled as "counterrevolutionary", "imperialists" etc.? I don't know. Anyway, what I mean is I side with the Cuban working class over Castro and the PCC and the PCC-controlled unions. And I'm not trying to being sectarian and whatnot, I'm just interested, so, please, no-one bite my head off.

I'm going to take the Left Maoist rather than the Trotskyist line here and call for the restructuring of the trade unions in Cuba rather than "independent trade unions".

What is the difference? Well union restructuring gives grassroots democracy to Cuban workers and allow them to have the full economic power to challenge bad pay and conditions etc, but at the same time politically the trade unions must still follow the socialist constitution of Cuba and cannot ally with any capitalist (including left reformist/social democratic) forces. This way on the one hand workers can fight against revisionist bureaucrats in the communist party economically for better pay and conditions, but on the other hand there is no risk of a "solidarity"-style movement developing that would threaten the Cuban socialist state and objectively aiding Western imperialism.

Queercommie Girl
25th September 2010, 17:15
Actually, most Hoxhaists and Maoists consider Cuba to be state capitalist.

Only Left Maoists. Many Orthodox and Right Maoists in mainland China today are very pro-Cuba.

Queercommie Girl
25th September 2010, 17:40
What is the basic dividing line between right and left Maoists in China?

Well, there are quite a few, but essentially it relates to the Cultural Revolution. Left Maoists generally consider the Cultural Revolution to be completely or almost completely positive, and they emphasis proletarian democracy more explicitly. Left Maoists are also much more anti-revisionist, completely rejecting socialist states like post-Stalin USSR, Cuba and Dengist China alike. Some left-leaning Left Maoists even criticise Mao, stating that he didn't do enough to promote proletarian democracy during the Cultural Revolution. Some also support the Shanghai Commune as a model of worker's democracy in China, a commune that literally existed outside the political bounds of the Chinese Communist Party. Ultra-leftist strands of Maoism are generally not only left relatively to orthodox Trotskyism, but actually to Leninism in general, being objectively closer to Left Communism and anarchism in some ways.

Right Maoists are influenced partly by Deng Xiaoping's theories and emphasise less on proletarian democracy and the Cultural Revolution. They don't reject states like the post-Stalin USSR and Cuba at all, some are actually very supportive of Cuba. They are more "classically Stalinist", except they generally don't completely write-off "market socialism", as long as the public sector is clearly dominant. Some right-leaning elements of Right Maoism are also partially influenced by some elements of Chinese Nationalism and Nazbolism.

So perhaps it's better to divide Maoism into left Maoism, orthodox Maoism and right Maoism. The difference between orthodox Maoism and right Maoism is that orthodox Maoism just "Stalinist" + limited market reforms, but right Maoism is also influenced directly by bourgeois ideologies like Chinese nationalism.

The Vegan Marxist
25th September 2010, 17:50
I would say there's clear problems with both sides of Maoism, as I've come to notice. I don't support the Right Maoists support in "market socialism", nor to I see how it's the reason why China still holds on to Socialism (for what's left of it). But they're correct on supporting Socialist states like Cuba & China today in defense against imperialism, along with showing clear support in the Soviet Union, even while it was going through revisionist stages from Khrushchev to Gorbachev.

I don't support the Left Maoists with their claims of support in the "state-capitalist" theory & labeling Post-Stalin Russia or Cuba & China as such, nor do I support their claims of the Soviet Union being "social-imperialist". That's complete bullshit! Though, I clearly support in proletarian democracy & do see the Cultural Revolution as a great time (with many flaws) in China's history.

Lyev
25th September 2010, 19:02
OK, there are three basic positions that you can take on Cuba;

1) It is socialist. This is the position held by Stalinists.
2) It is a deformed workers' state. This is the position held by most Trotskyists including, I think, your organisation, the CWI
3) It is capitalist. This is the position held by some Trotskyists, left communists, and most anarchists (You sometimes see state put in front of the capitalist.

That is very basic, but obviously your understanding of the events going on at the moment is deeply influenced by how you see the relations of production in Cuba. Personally I favour the third.

DevrimI understand the basics of the debates surrounding the true nature of Cuba, USSR, China, Vietnam, North Korea etc., but what I was really thinking about here was the formation of independent trade unions in Cuba. The trade union centre, Confederación de Trabajadores Cubanos (CTC), is the only officially recognised form of worker's representation in Cuba. I'm fairly sure Castro et al. banned the formation of trade unions independent from the government and PCC. Anything outside of the CTC is discouraged:
Brussels, 16 April 2003 (ICFTU Online): A ban on independent trade unions, the persecution and arrest of numerous independent trade unionists, denial of the right to strike and the right to collective bargaining, political discrimination when hiring new recruits, and more.I was just wondering how, if at all, workers are going to oppose these reforms, or if strikes, demonstrations - decisive action - will see an authoritarian backlash from Castro.

Orange Juche
25th September 2010, 19:10
If the PSL got together, drank a ton, took E, and played rave music... what would you call it?

Queercommie Girl
25th September 2010, 19:14
I understand the basics of the debates surrounding the true nature of Cuba, USSR, China, Vietnam, North Korea etc., but what I was really thinking about here was the formation of independent trade unions in Cuba. The trade union centre, Confederación de Trabajadores Cubanos (CTC), is the only officially recognised form of worker's representation in Cuba. I'm fairly sure Castro et al. banned the formation of trade unions independent from the government and PCC. Anything outside of the CTC is discouraged:I was just wondering how, if at all, workers are going to oppose these reforms, or if strikes, demonstrations - decisive action - will see an authoritarian backlash from Castro.

There is nothing necessarily wrong with just having a "single" government union, but the unions should be restructured to become democratically "bottom-up" and grassroots rather than "top-down". After all, Cuba is supposed to be a worker's state, so let workers control the trade union democratically from the bottom.

Promoting independent unions can also achieve this economic aim, but there is the danger of pro-imperialist forces infiltrating the ranks of Cuban workers.

That's the essential difference between the Left Maoist and Trotskyist positions on trade unionism.

S.Artesian
25th September 2010, 20:02
Of course "there is the danger of pro-imperialist forces infiltrating the ranks of Cuban workers," just as there is the reality of pro-capitalist forces "infiltrating," being generated within and by the Communist Party.

But what alternative is there to taking exactly that risk? To defending, independent of the official state and union apparatus, workers' collective actions against unemployment, against privatization, etc?

Certainly recent history has proven how incapable official CPs and governments are of defending the workers from the depredations of the world markets, so what's left? "Reform" of those structures that are, at best, incapable of, and at worst opposed to expressing the need for extending revolution? Outright support of say a Jaruzelski?

When the dominant institutions act as the administrators to capitalist expansion, how can we expect a class struggle to develop without manifesting, within the working class itself, all those impulses to capitalist restoration. That's what happened in Poland in the 1980s.

The meaning of the "reforms" is quite simply that there is no prospect for the present arrangement of "collectivized" property to maintain itself in the world markets.

There is no alternative to "taking the risk," and supporting, defending independent working class actions.

Kassad
27th September 2010, 00:54
If the PSL got together, drank a ton, took E, and played rave music... what would you call it?

A lowercase-p party for socialism and liberation?

bricolage
27th September 2010, 17:29
Here's what I'm not going to do. Talk about how we raise money and how we manage our funding on a public website with right-wingers reading..
I wasn't asking you to do that. I was assuming you'd have a self-congratulatory newspaper article or something about or someone to back up such a claim. Only a few post down someone actually gave a decent answer (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1874518&postcount=84) which explained some of it - actually you thanked it, surely being in the PSL you could have said something like that in the first place?