Interracial marriage

[threepeaches]

I read a Gallup poll comparing the changing views on interracial marriage from 1958 to 2007. Naturally, the focus of the writing is on the 77% percent that now approve of interracial marriage rather than the 17% that disapprove.

A political scientist friend of mine says he thinks the sampling for the poll was bad...he believes the numbers to be closer to 21%. What do you think?

I live in on a little island of white, middle class democrats, smack dab in a sea of fundamentalist Christians and neo-Nazis. I shouldn't be surprised by such a high percentage, but I certainly was. And I believe it. But that's a whole lotta idiots to overcome. Time to get started, then. Peacey weacey.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I read a Gallup poll comparing the changing views on interracial marriage from 1958 to 2007. Naturally, the focus of the writing is on the 77% percent that now approve of interracial marriage rather than the 17% that disapprove.

A political scientist friend of mine says he thinks the sampling for the poll was bad...he believes the numbers to be closer to 21%. What do you think?

I live in on a little island of white, middle class democrats, smack dab in a sea of fundamentalist Christians and neo-Nazis. I shouldn't be surprised by such a high percentage, but I certainly was. And I believe it. But that's a whole lotta idiots to overcome. Time to get started, then. Peacey weacey.
A while back, I would have been like "Ewwww you mean people actually want to get married?"
However, there are shifts going on in my thinking and the idea of getting married actually seems to appeal to me and part of me actually wants a husband.:confused:
As for the issue of interracial marriage, I would not exist if it wasn't for interracial mixing.

[Klaatu]

I wonder if people think of interracial marriage as being of any type:

(A) white/black
(B) white/asian
(C) black/asian
(D) white/indian
(E) black/indian
(F) asian/indian
(G) white/aborigine
(H) black/aborigine
(I) indian/aborigine
(J) asian/aborigine

"indian" means native american
"aborigine" means native australian

[Rousedruminations]

Nationalisitic perspectives in small hub of communities without any larger social cohesion with the wider community, always become reactionary after a long period of time. In the community that i live in, the purity of sub-cultures that reside with in the larger Australian Culture bring about tensions between the community and those around them when they stubbornly refuse to integrate with other sectors of australian society and i'm sure im not alone ! A key component is asking their sons and daugther to have arranged marriages instead of inter-racial ones, that way no family can venture out of their own community. Sometimes it is coerced , other times it isn't. The process of purifying a race through arranged marriages from the same culture and background is repulsive and pure narrow-mindedness in my opinion, conservative and reactionary - but i live in this shit hole with a contrary opinion.

[Queercommie Girl]

I wonder if people think of interracial marriage as being of any type:

(A) white/black
(B) white/asian
(C) black/asian
(D) white/indian
(E) black/indian
(F) asian/indian
(G) white/aborigine
(H) black/aborigine
(I) indian/aborigine
(J) asian/aborigine

"indian" means native american
"aborigine" means native australian

:confused:

Your point being...

[revolution inaction]

A while back, I would have been like "Ewwww you mean people actually want to get married?"
However, there are shifts going on in my thinking and the idea of getting married actually seems to appeal to me and part of me actually wants a husband.:confused:


you find the idea of declaring your relationship to the state appealing?

[Magón]

Yeah, I wouldn't be here if there wasn't any interracial lovin' going on. And so would a lot of people I know. Lots of pure white neighborhoods often are Right-Wing Xenophobes who are often outspoken about Whites/Blacks, Whites/Hispanics, Whites/Asians, etc. getting down and having children. Except! When they later get caught with some poor little Mexican Mistress, or something in their bed.

Same goes for those often out spoken about Homosexuality and Alcohol. They don't want anyone else doing it, but it's okay if they do it, because it doesn't hurt or worry anyone. :rolleyes:

[Raúl Duke]

I'm a product of an inter-ethnic marriage(s).

[Klaatu]

:confused:

Your point being...

The point is that racists oppose black-white marriages (especially if the male is black and the female is white) but do not have any objection to any other combinations. I regret that this was not too clear in my post.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

you find the idea of declaring your relationship to the state appealing?
That's not what I find appealing about it. It is the wedding part that appeals to me. The political aspect is not something I think about. I am becoming increasingly apolitical. I don't take normality for granted having been 'the freak' too much in my life. People sometimes romanticize it, but being 'the freak' and feeling that is not what it's made out to be. I just want to be like any other girl. Because of the body I was born into, I've spent my entire life hating my life. I actually want to be normal. I wish I had been born into the right body in the first place. I'm sorry if I'm being a ***** about this but I don't want to be a social deviant or a social outcast, I just want to be a normal girl.

[Adi Shankara]

I read a Gallup poll comparing the changing views on interracial marriage from 1958 to 2007. Naturally, the focus of the writing is on the 77% percent that now approve of interracial marriage rather than the 17% that disapprove.

A political scientist friend of mine says he thinks the sampling for the poll was bad...he believes the numbers to be closer to 21%. What do you think?


Luckily, many of those who disapprove of interracial relationships are of an older, more racist generation, last of a dying breed, so to speak:


Overall, 85% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 49 approve of marriages between blacks and whites, while among those aged 50 and older, 67% approve. These results are similar among whites -- 86% of whites ages 18 to 49 approve, compared with 64% of whites who are older.

So the good news is, 85% of Americans between 18 and 49 (plus I'm sure all those below the age of 18) approve of interracial relationships. the future is looking bright for race relations, Although I think that disapproval is still too high, and there are still ways to go.

but amongst blacks and latinos and asians, approval is as high as 90%, so it shows that most who disapprove are probably those teabagger types anyways.

I've been in an interracial relationship for a while, and I doubt I'm going to stop dating anyone because of the disapproval of a small minority of older, right-wing bigots.

[Adi Shankara]

That's not what I find appealing about it. It is the wedding part that appeals to me. The political aspect is not something I think about. I am becoming increasingly apolitical. I don't take normality for granted having been 'the freak' too much in my life. People sometimes romanticize it, but being 'the freak' and feeling that is not what it's made out to be. I just want to be like any other girl. Because of the body I was born into, I've spent my entire life hating my life. I actually want to be normal. I wish I had been born into the right body in the first place. I'm sorry if I'm being a ***** about this but I don't want to be a social deviant or a social outcast, I just want to be a normal girl.

I hope you get married if that makes you happy. personally, I know marriage is in my future, because whether people want to call it a bourgeois institution or not, I see it more as a symbolic joining of two people for life, which is kind've what I want in the first place.

[GreenCommunism]

I wonder if people think of interracial marriage as being of any type:

(A) white/black
(B) white/asian
(C) black/asian
(D) white/indian
(E) black/indian
(F) asian/indian
(G) white/aborigine
(H) black/aborigine
(I) indian/aborigine
(J) asian/aborigine

"indian" means native american
"aborigine" means native australian

call them native.

as for interracial mariage, it wouldn't surprise me that some of those who vote in favor could be racist themselves. also, how was the question framed? could it be possible someone wrote against it because society is too racist? some have come up with the argument that interracial has the problem of creating kids who do not identify to one or another community since the united state is very racist.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I hope you get married if that makes you happy. personally, I know marriage is in my future, because whether people want to call it a bourgeois institution or not, I see it more as a symbolic joining of two people for life, which is kind've what I want in the first place.
You know, we don't always agree, but I do agree with you that it's a matter of personal preference. I feeling like as I'm growing up, I'm becoming more mellow and I feel like I'd rather settle down.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

That's not what I find appealing about it. It is the wedding part that appeals to me. The political aspect is not something I think about. I am becoming increasingly apolitical. I don't take normality for granted having been 'the freak' too much in my life. People sometimes romanticize it, but being 'the freak' and feeling that is not what it's made out to be. I just want to be like any other girl. Because of the body I was born into, I've spent my entire life hating my life. I actually want to be normal. I wish I had been born into the right body in the first place. I'm sorry if I'm being a ***** about this but I don't want to be a social deviant or a social outcast, I just want to be a normal girl.

I understand this. You don't have to spend your life as a professional rebel. You seem like a cool person just the way you are.Sometimes , a lot of times actually, I get sick of always being different. It sucks. I'm starting to think though that there's no such thing as normal. As a teacher I've heard a huge number of stories. Being "normal" is a social construct.

There is a difference between marriage as a ceremony, social bonding ritual,which somebody can have to mark a stage in their life, and then there is marriage as a state sanctioned relationship. This is the same state that murdered close to a million people in Iraq.The first type of marriage can be really cool.The second type, I can take it or leave it.

I support same sex marriage but I could never understand all the enthusiasm for this.

We all need community, a sense of fitting in and being accepted, of being a part of something. Everything I know about crisis of capitalism, mainstream society probably ain't gonna last too much longer. We have to create our own society, somehow.

I don't mean any offence in this post, just some ideas.

[GreenCommunism]

social bonding ritual

this is very attractive for me to be honest, it is one of the reason that i like parts of religion as a whole, i like the idea of having rituals for many different event, such a birth,social bonding and death.

[hatzel]

some have come up with the argument that interracial has the problem of creating kids who do not identify to one or another community since the united state is very racist.

I've definitely heard this. But I think it's actually stronger in cross-racial adoptions. That is to say, two white parents with one black child, or any other combination. I've actually even heard it said that black children adopted by white families can even end up a little racist. Or, not racist, but as anti-black as an average white person could be. "I'd rather not hang out with those types", so to speak. I'm not sure if this would be particularly strong in interracial relationships, though...

Take another spin on it, though...what do we even consider as interracial? Just to take my own example, my girlfriend's father is white, whilst her mother, from Mexico, is considerably darker. She'd be a visual minority here in Europe, that's for sure. And my girlfriend, too, the mingling of these two, could easily be considered somehow non-white, as her skin is clearly a somewhat different tone than mine. However, she considers herself white, and I consider her white, and I wouldn't consider myself as in an interracial relationship. This, though, doesn't mean that this would be universally agreed on, and particular people (that can mean whatever you want) could easily consider this an interracial relationship.

This could be an interesting progression from Klaatu's point. How would those who disapprove of interracial relationships distinguish between the races, and decide which relationships are and aren't interracial? I guess, strangely, there is a pretty grey area concerning race here...no?

[cska]

This could be an interesting progression from Klaatu's point. How would those who disapprove of interracial relationships distinguish between the races, and decide which relationships are and aren't interracial? I guess, strangely, there is a pretty grey area concerning race here...no?

That's one of their biggest complaints with interracial marriages: it creates gray areas. Sometime you should take a look at Stormfront just to get an idea of what those nutcases expouse.

[hatzel]

Oh, I read SF all the time! Classic comedy :thumbup1:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I understand this. You don't have to spend your life as a professional rebel. You seem like a cool person just the way you are.Sometimes , a lot of times actually, I get sick of always being different. It sucks. I'm starting to think though that there's no such thing as normal. As a teacher I've heard a huge number of stories. Being "normal" is a social construct.

There is a difference between marriage as a ceremony, social bonding ritual,which somebody can have to mark a stage in their life, and then there is marriage as a state sanctioned relationship. This is the same state that murdered close to a million people in Iraq.The first type of marriage can be really cool.The second type, I can take it or leave it.

I support same sex marriage but I could never understand all the enthusiasm for this.

We all need community, a sense of fitting in and being accepted, of being a part of something. Everything I know about crisis of capitalism, mainstream society probably ain't gonna last too much longer. We have to create our own society, somehow.

I don't mean any offence in this post, just some ideas.
None taken. I come from a family where I'm pretty much the only person to not marry my first. It's the old school mexican catholic family thing. It is difficult.

[cska]

Oh, I read SF all the time! Classic comedy :thumbup1:

Yeah the funniest thread is the one with pictures of white women. They are like oh she's hot. Then someone points out she is a jew. They all are like oh she is ugly now.

[GreenCommunism]

Yeah the funniest thread is the one with pictures of white women. They are like oh she's hot. Then someone points out she is a jew. They all are like oh she is ugly now.

ì did not realize how ugly she was before i knew her racial/ethnic background!

[Adi Shankara]

Yeah the funniest thread is the one with pictures of white women. They are like oh she's hot. Then someone points out she is a jew. They all are like oh she is ugly now.

90% of people who go to Stormfront are either trolls, antis, or bored people who like to feel offended by ignorance. I fit into all three categories. :D

Also, why can't they ever answer this question: "Hey White Nationalists, if Whites are the superior race like you say they are, then why do you always say that Jews control everyone and everything, including white people?"

Their heads almost always explode at that question.

[RED DAVE]

Standard Jewish joke:

Morris is walking in the park one day, and he sees his friend Abe sitting on a bench reading something. As Morris approaches, Abe sees Morris and tries to hide whatever it is he's reading by sitting on it.

"So what are you reading, Abie?" Morris asks.

"Nothing'," Abe says. "It's not your business." but Morris reaches over and picks the item up. Lo and behold, it's an antisemitic magazine!

"For what reason are you reading this dreck*?" Morris asks.

"It's simple," Abe says. "I have no job; my wife and I live in a basement; I don't know what's going to happen to us."

"So why the antisemitic stuff?"

"When I read this, I see we Jews are all rich; we live in mansions; and we rule this world!"

Ta-dum-DUM!

* Yiddish word for anything worthless.

RED DAVE

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Their heads almost always explode at that question.
Isn't that a Dave Chapelle skit?

[hatzel]

Also, why can't they ever answer this question: "Hey White Nationalists, if Whites are the superior race like you say they are, then why do you always say that Jews control everyone and everything, including white people?"

I guess it's because the Jews they're talking about are white :rolleyes:

[Obzervi]

I wonder if people think of interracial marriage as being of any type:

(A) white/black
(B) white/asian
(C) black/asian
(D) white/indian
(E) black/indian
(F) asian/indian
(G) white/aborigine
(H) black/aborigine
(I) indian/aborigine
(J) asian/aborigine

"indian" means native american
"aborigine" means native australian

Good point. I've noticed that whenever people talk about "interracial dating" they only refer to couples in which one of the partners is white. They NEVER talk about the multitude of other variations, considering white people are a small minority in the global population. Its actually a manifestation of the white supremacy mindset in which whites are thought of as being so different from everybody else that much attention is paid when they date a non white person. I guarantee you nobody would give a shit if they saw an aborigine man and black woman dating, to them its just a couple of darkies so no difference.

From a biological standpoint race doesn't exist, yet it does exist within a sociological context as a social structure and therefore has huge implications in real world events.

Racism will diminish a bit as the old white fucks from the previous generation die off.

[hatzel]

To be honest...I don't think I've ever known a black-Asian relationship. White-black, sure, white-Asian, sure, but black-Asian? And with that, I mean Middle Eastern, Indian, Chinese, anything. I wonder if there's any truth in this. I mean, if we take somebody from a minority...is there a hierarchy? That is to say, are they perhaps most likely to get into a relationship with somebody else from the same minority, as a second option somebody from the majority, as a third option somebody from a different minority? I guess this might be logical, assuming people from a given minority are more likely to have friends from that minority, and might have friends from the majority, but for two self-contained minorities to intermingle? Hmm...it's an interesting question. Anybody know of any articles discussing this topic?

[Obzervi]

To be honest...I don't think I've ever known a black-Asian relationship. White-black, sure, white-Asian, sure, but black-Asian? And with that, I mean Middle Eastern, Indian, Chinese, anything. I wonder if there's any truth in this. I mean, if we take somebody from a minority...is there a hierarchy? That is to say, are they perhaps most likely to get into a relationship with somebody else from the same minority, as a second option somebody from the majority, as a third option somebody from a different minority? I guess this might be logical, assuming people from a given minority are more likely to have friends from that minority, and might have friends from the majority, but for two self-contained minorities to intermingle? Hmm...it's an interesting question. Anybody know of any articles discussing this topic?
Its racist because you assume that the only type of relationship minorities are willing to engage in is with a white person, and never with another minority. You ascribe a higher value to white bodies over people of color.

[cska]

To be honest...I don't think I've ever known a black-Asian relationship. White-black, sure, white-Asian, sure, but black-Asian? And with that, I mean Middle Eastern, Indian, Chinese, anything. I wonder if there's any truth in this. I mean, if we take somebody from a minority...is there a hierarchy? That is to say, are they perhaps most likely to get into a relationship with somebody else from the same minority, as a second option somebody from the majority, as a third option somebody from a different minority? I guess this might be logical, assuming people from a given minority are more likely to have friends from that minority, and might have friends from the majority, but for two self-contained minorities to intermingle? Hmm...it's an interesting question. Anybody know of any articles discussing this topic?

Many Asians are racist. That could help explain the lack of black-Asian relationships. But outside of that, I think it isn't uncommon for self-contained minorities to intermingle. Just not as probable as relationships within the community or relationships between a minority and a white. I mean, as a South Asian, if I were completely culturally and racially neutral, I would be most likely to have a relationship with a white, since, well, the country is mostly whites.

[hatzel]

Ah...no...just plain no...[EDIT: at Obzervi, not cska]

If 90% of a population are white, 5% black and 5% Chinese, I think it's pretty logical to suggest that one of these black people would be more likely to be in a relationship with a white person than with a Chinese person, merely because there are more of them. That's why they are called the 'majority', because there are lots of them. I also suggested that people of minorities actually 'ascribe a higher value', if anybody's doing that at all, to people of their own group, not whites. Minority relationships with the majority stem from the fact that there is a wider pool in the majority, of course. And it's true that the average black person might have predominantly black friends, or at least more black friends than the average white person, whilst the Chinese person would have more Chinese friends.

The question was nothing to do with anything like that. The question was asking whether the fact that these 5% of black people might be more likely to be in black-majority friendship circles, and the Chinese in Chinese-majority friendship circles, puts some kind of barrier between them. A barrier which is stronger than the barrier between said minority and the majority, who one is more likely to interact with. Really, the question was was about whether or not a black person, if breaking out of their own community, would only be less likely to enter a relationship with a Chinese person because the numbers show that there are how ever many times more white people than Chinese people, explaining the relatively low incidence of black-Chinese relationships in my eye, or whether there is some other factor, beyond mere numbers, making a black-Chinese relationship somehow less likely. Perhaps there is a certain inter-minority friction, or 'double barriers'. This would be equally applicable in a 90% black, 5% white, 5% Chinese society, though.

And there was no assumption. Didn't I ask if anybody had any article about it? Which I had hoped might have given numbers about the incidence of interracial relationships amongst different groups in a given society. So that we could compare the assumed rates in a 100% colour blind society (90% of all people in my imagined society are in a relationship with a white person, 5% with a black person, 5% with a Chinese person) with the incidence in the real world...

[syndicat]

To be honest...I don't think I've ever known a black-Asian relationship.

but how many people of Asian ancestry do you know? I live in a city that is 1/3 Asian by ancestry. One of my Leftist friends had a black American father and a Vietnamese mother. I know of other black-Asian relationships as well as black-Latino relationships and Asian-Latino relationships. An acquaintance of mine is a nurse whose father was of Mexican ancestry and her mother was Chinese-Vietnamese. also note that since the early '90s the percentage of black women married to non-black men has doubled (from 5 percent to about 10 percent). among immigrant groups, it seems that their rate of inter-marriage increases as their families have been in the U.S. longer. About half of all Japanese-Americans, for example, marry non-Japanese.

[Adi Shankara]

Many Asians are racist. That could help explain the lack of black-Asian relationships..

Well...that was pretty racist.

[hatzel]

but how many people of Asian ancestry do you know? I live in a city that is 1/3 Asian by ancestry. One of my Leftist friends had a black American father and a Vietnamese mother. I know of other black-Asian relationships as well as black-Latino relationships. An acquaintance of mine is a nurse whose father was of Mexican ancestry and her mother was Chinese-Vietnamese.

That's kind of what I was getting at :rolleyes: You know, whether my not seeing them is just because it would be expected that they would be a rare occurrence (think of my example, where only 5% of 5% of people would be in a black-Asian relationship in a 100% colour-blind society [EDIT: ah...I don't study maths...do I have to times that by two? For each side of the relationship? I don't think it's important, though, we get the idea of what I'm saying...]), or if they were less likely than expected.

Also, I think we should move away from Asian as the example. In your example, the large number of Asians of course make it more likely than in my imaginary 90:5:5 society. But this isn't about Asians, really, that was just my example. It might be better to imagine blue and green minorities in a red-majority society, so that we don't start thinking this is about the actual races in question, and whether Asians are more or less closed than some other population...

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The whole term "Interracial marrige/relastionship" is strange and stupid, it takes for grant that two persons with different ethnicitys is somethin not normal, whats the deal with making a thing about it, people tend to love whoever they do, case closed.

[syndicat]

The whole term "Interracial marrige/relastionship" is strange and stupid, it takes for grant that two persons with different ethnicitys is somethin not normal, whats the deal with making a thing about it, people tend to love whoever they do, case closed.


maybe the racists there in Sweden don't make an issue of it but here in the USA it has historically been a source of racist attacks, tho less so in recent years. Inter-racial marriage was illegal in a number of states of the USA not too many decades in the past. of course it becomes a non-issue to the extent people aren't subject to racist attack for it. so, yes, it is stupid that people make an issue of it, but racism is stupid.

[hatzel]

The whole term "Interracial marrige/relastionship" is strange and stupid, it takes for grant that two persons with different ethnicitys is somethin not normal, whats the deal with making a thing about it, people tend to love whoever they do, case closed.

I'd call that oversimplification. Society isn't colour-blind, for various reasons. As Syndicat mentioned (though coming from the other side), only 10% of black women marry non-blacks, and still half of Japanese-Americans marry within their own population. Irrespective of the reasons, the people who people love isn't entirely random, and is influenced by race. Sure, maybe half of friends of Japanese-Americans are Japanese, the other half not, so of course it's expected that the split of marriage is half-and-half. But then, still, the Japanese-Americans are staying in their own community to some extent, perhaps, for whatever reason. As are the other communities.

I should also mention that so-called 'yellow fever' might increase the numbers of non-Japanese wanting to marry Japanese, so...that could be influential to some extent...an external, rather than internal, change...

[cska]

Well...that was pretty racist.

There you go. I'm a perfect example of my statement. :laugh:

But it really is a fact that many Asians (in America) are racist. They may not be as privileged as whites, but they certainly look up to whites and look down upon blacks.

[Queercommie Girl]

There you go. I'm a perfect example of my statement. :laugh:

But it really is a fact that many Asians (in America) are racist. They may not be as privileged as whites, but they certainly look up to whites and look down upon blacks.

The "Model Minority" myth.

http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/index.php

Here is a "progressive" site that apparently challenges this, however, objectively it is very petit-bourgeois and annoying, not to mention "anti-communist" (though they don't really know what they are talking about) to some extent.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

@Krimskrams

Yes if you would look at who we tend to fall in love with in a siencetific perspective
things would be more complexed, thats true, but nobody thinks of that in theire daily life. The numbers of just 10% of black women wants to marry non-black, dont say anything to me, can you explaine why that matters and whats 'yellow fever' meaning in this context?

[hatzel]

Well, this is just about the incidence of interracial relationships. The numbers here suggest that interracial relationships are somehow not 'normal' (that is to say, uncommon, not abnormal), that the normal, expected thing is a relationship within ones own ethnicity, as this is far more common. There's the question of whether or not this is because white men are largely reluctant to marry black women, black women are largely reluctant to marry white men or something in the middle.

And 'yellow fever' is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek term for the current western obsession with East Asia, particularly a sexual obsession. Asian fetishism, so to speak. I know a few people who are interested in manga and J-rock and all that kind of stuff who say that they actively seek an Asian partner, which is the only reason I mentioned it.

[GreenCommunism]

i'm not sure to be honest, alot of people date persons they grow up with etc or are in their network, so i don't think in a 90% white country that blacks have a 90% chance of dating whites if it is a society without racism. to be honest, i find alot of the racism in today's world when it comes to mating having more to do with initiating flirt than with carrying the whole thing through.

[The Red Next Door]

I come from a family, where interracial relationship runs, My cousin in Chicago is married to an Asian, My cousin is married to a white women who created two awesome cousins are mix, basically to cut it short, we have a lot or some interracial relationships in our family.

[GreenCommunism]

aren't there a study of dating patterns, i've heard that 40% of people end up with their first love, which is a kinda romantic finding. that of course depends on the school and environment you grow up in.

[Obzervi]

I would agree that many if not most asians are racist and people who deny this haven't lived near large numbers of them or gotten to know them well enough. I've heard statements from them about other minority groups that would make a white supremacist seem tame by comparison.

[Queercommie Girl]

I would agree that many if not most asians are racist and people who deny this haven't lived near large numbers of them or gotten to know them well enough. I've heard statements from them about other minority groups that would make a white supremacist seem tame by comparison.

That comment itself is quite racist towards Asians.

[cska]

That comment itself is quite racist towards Asians.

Hit a sore point did we? :rolleyes: A lot of whites are racist. That is the truth. Just as most Asian immigrants in America are racist. Pretending that isn't the case isn't going to change the reality.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Maybe a verbal warning is to hard, but can some mod/admin demand a higher level on the comments, ore can we at least skip the generalizating talk.

[hatzel]

I admit I've not known that many Asians (assuming we mean from the Far East), but I've never heard a single racist comment from any of them...this isn't a decisive study, of course, but...it's just my personal experience...

[LC89]

We also need to involve gender as a factor... A BIG ONE. I seen lots of white men date different race. But I seen very few colored men able to date a white women though there are plenty of successful Hispanic single males near my neighborhood. Racism in many cases are meant to benefit for white males not white women. Because a men dates another race doesn't mean he is not racist. He could be a man who has racial sexual objectification.

[Adi Shankara]

We also need to involve gender as a factor... A BIG ONE. I seen lots of white men date different race. But I seen very few colored men able to date a white women though there are plenty of successful Hispanic single males near my neighborhood. Racism in many cases are meant to benefit for white males not white women. Because a men dates another race doesn't mean he is not racist. He could be a man who has racial sexual objectification.

Not really the case in San Francisco. everyone just dates everyone here. I know more interracial couples than not, to be honest, but maybe that's just because it's so diverse in the bay area.

[cska]

Not really the case in San Francisco. everyone just dates everyone here. I know more interracial couples than not, to be honest, but maybe that's just because it's so diverse in the bay area.

Yeah the Bay Area is pretty diverse (though due to segregation, relationships between blacks and non-blacks are not too common).

[Hexen]

Marriage regardless in all forms is a manifestation of property therefore theft.

[cska]

Marriage regardless in all forms is a act of theft.

:confused: What exactly are you stealing? Tax breaks?

[Hexen]

:confused: What exactly are you stealing? Tax breaks?

What I'm saying here that property is theft and marriage is no exception which is like putting a fence around a individual from everyone else.

[cska]

What I'm saying here that property is theft and marriage is no exception which is like putting a fence around a individual from everyone else.

Property is theft? And making commitments to each other is putting a fence around an individual from everyone else? Libertarians these days. Geez. :laugh:

[LC89]

Not really the case in San Francisco. everyone just dates everyone here. I know more interracial couples than not, to be honest, but maybe that's just because it's so diverse in the bay area.
I'm grown up part of my life in S.F. Are there lots of interracial couple? Yes. What are they? White men with all types of women. Asian/Black men with other races such as white women... VERY VERY FEW.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I do believe that some people have natural biases. I as a woman, aside from having a hard time trusting men, I actually feel specifically less comfortable with anglo or even non-mexican men. Women are easier to trust all around, but women have not been associated with trauma in my case.

[hatzel]

I'm grown up part of my life in S.F. Are there lots of interracial couple? Yes. What are they? White men with all types of women. Asian/Black men with other races such as white women... VERY VERY FEW.

Well, here in Britain it's the opposite in some cases. Black and mixed-race guys get white girlfriends, but the black girls pretty much stay in their own race. On the other hand, the white guys get the Chinese girls, but Chinese guys can't get white girls. Maybe it's different in other places, but here in Britain, it's like that...

I can also say that, in Scandinavia, it's much the same. Many Finnish women in particular find Black, Turkish, even thick dark-haired Italians as the absolute epitome of sexy. But the guys? Oh, they're not really interested in the immigrant girls...

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I can also say that, in Scandinavia, it's much the same. Many Finnish women in particular find Black, Turkish, even thick dark-haired Italians as the absolute epitome of sexy. But the guys? Oh, they're not really interested in the immigrant girls...

With this statement youve probably made a deep overwealming research on the "subject" and are going to prove this with some good polls, right?

[progressive_lefty]

I find this conversation really interesting. It's no surprise that I started a thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/interracial-marriage-dating-t89624/index.html) about this two years ago.

Everyone can relate to interracial dating these days. I think in Australia a lot of things have changed, I still hear that thing about 'oh white girls cant stand asian guys' lol. That so isn't true, white girl-asian guy is beginning to become far more common. I know in my city you start to see it more often, and some of these asian guys are just so immersed into Australian culture that they're soo Australian but just have different physical features.

Of the girls I've dated in my life, almost all have been white, except for two - one was black and the other was asian. Out of all those girls - most have been a mistake, except one lol Guess - the black one. She was amazing, super intelligent, successful and easy-going. The reason why it ended, was that I couldn't handle such a good relationship at such a young age lol So we're good friends now lol
But I think that interracial dating is touching everyone now, more so then it used too. A lot of people go about it without thinking anything of it, they may date someone of another race and then go back to theirs, and then someone from another race and then .. etc. I had a Swedish room mate that was quite casually racist, he sometimes made racist jokes with his dry sense of humor, but he's dated all kinds of girls - black, white, asian, indian..

Something that I think sucks - is the people that are still opposed to it. If you ever meet a white South African or Zimbabwean I dare you to ask them what they think of dating black guys or girls (even the ones that say their not racist). I also find that in Arab and Indian cultures, interracial dating is still looked down upon. I find most Indian or Arab girls are attracted to white guys, but are too worried about being bullied by their parents...

[hatzel]

With this statement youve probably made a deep overwealming research on the "subject" and are going to prove this with some good polls, right?

The only in-depth study I could cite would be G.A. Cretser's now outdated 'Cross-national marriage in Sweden: Immigration and assimilation 1971-1993'. A quick glance to Helsingin Sanomat, though, will tell us that 457 Finnish women married a non-Finnish man in Helsinki in 2007, compared to the 384 Finnish men who married a non-Finnish woman in the same city in the same time period. Further information can be found here (http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/pdf/webreports32.pdf), if you happen to be confident in Finnish / using Google Translate. Check the two tables on page 48.

In truth, though, I based my suggestion on observation, and conversations / interviews with individuals. Particularly those from ethnic minorities, more of my specialisation, so we can say that that's at least how they consider /experience it.

[Obzervi]

I admit I've not known that many Asians (assuming we mean from the Far East), but I've never heard a single racist comment from any of them...this isn't a decisive study, of course, but...it's just my personal experience...
Okay I realize this is generalizing but its been true in all the cases when I've experienced asian racism. Their racism is not overt like a retarded skinhead screaming sieg heil. Their racism is below the surface and evident only when you get to know them better and they open up about their beliefs. Many of the asian males that I've met look down on black people. I haven't talked with many asian girls but I have noticed a few treating black women badly and I overheard an asian girl on my college campus telling a black man she won't date him because her parents don't want her with a black guy.

[Obzervi]

Well, here in Britain it's the opposite in some cases. Black and mixed-race guys get white girlfriends, but the black girls pretty much stay in their own race. On the other hand, the white guys get the Chinese girls, but Chinese guys can't get white girls. Maybe it's different in other places, but here in Britain, it's like that...

I can also say that, in Scandinavia, it's much the same. Many Finnish women in particular find Black, Turkish, even thick dark-haired Italians as the absolute epitome of sexy. But the guys? Oh, they're not really interested in the immigrant girls...

Your comment is heading into dangerous territory, because this "foreign men with our women" commentary is often employed by far right groups who make dubious rape statistic claims. Everyone should just be free to date whoever they want. If a man or woman doesn't want to date a certain person they shouldn't be forced to. What I'm saying is that access to sex with another ethnic group's women is not a human right, its the decision of the individual woman herself.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The only in-depth study I could cite would be G.A. Cretser's now outdated 'Cross-national marriage in Sweden: Immigration and assimilation 1971-1993'. A quick glance to Helsingin Sanomat, though, will tell us that 457 Finnish women married a non-Finnish man in Helsinki in 2007, compared to the 384 Finnish men who married a non-Finnish woman in the same city in the same time period. Further information can be found here (http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/pdf/webreports32.pdf), if you happen to be confident in Finnish / using Google Translate. Check the two tables on page 48.

In truth, though, I based my suggestion on observation, and conversations / interviews with individuals. Particularly those from ethnic minorities, more of my specialisation, so we can say that that's at least how they consider /experience it.

I will look into that later, thanks for sharing it.

And now to the part of youre post that ive marked, this is why the level on this thread pretty much suck, since what tou see one the streets aint proofe for nothing. Just because you never seen some particular couple combination, doesnt mean that they dont exist, its as stupid as the idea of that if you close your eyes the rest of the world doesnt exist, since you cant see it and soo far this is the level that this thread have had.

[Magón]

I used to explain my preference of women like my coffee: Hot and Black. :lol: But that's mainly because where I lived when I came into the US, more than 60% of the women my age or around my age, were Black, and the rest were Hispanic like me or White.

Now I just don't care.

[cska]

Everyone should just be free to date whoever they want. If a man or woman doesn't want to date a certain person they shouldn't be forced to. What I'm saying is that access to sex with another ethnic group's women is not a human right, its the decision of the individual woman herself.

Every individual should have a right to make a decision as to who to have relationships. However, when those decisions are based on race or when race factors into those decisions, there is a societal problem that needs to get fixed. Decisions based on race should be looked down upon. :thumbdown:

[syndicat]

I'm grown up part of my life in S.F. Are there lots of interracial couple? Yes. What are they? White men with all types of women. Asian/Black men with other races such as white women... VERY VERY FEW.

well, that is not my experience and i've lived in S.F. for 28 years. i would agree that there are more white guys with Asian women than Asian men with white women but the latter relationships are not rare. In regard to white/black relationships, I see about as many black men with white (and sometimes Asian or Latino) women as black women with white guys. but i'm talking about young couples that i see walking around or people that i know. according to a black sociologist at Harvard there has been a definite trend in the last 10-15 years towards more black women marrying white (or other non-black) men.

[Obzervi]

Every individual should have a right to make a decision as to who to have relationships. However, when those decisions are based on race or when race factors into those decisions, there is a societal problem that needs to get fixed. Decisions based on race should be looked down upon. :thumbdown:

People take in many factors. How are you going to implement this? Are you also going to ban women from taking height into account as well in order to combat heightism? I'm saying we should be fighting for equal rights, not to force women to have sex with men they don't want to.

[cska]

People take in many factors. How are you going to implement this? Are you also going to ban women from taking height into account as well in order to combat heightism?

Like I said, it should be looked down upon.


I'm saying we should be fighting for equal rights, not to force women to have sex with men they don't want to.

What the fuck? I don't recall advocating raping women anywhere in my posts.

[Quail]

People take in many factors. How are you going to implement this? Are you also going to ban women from taking height into account as well in order to combat heightism? I'm saying we should be fighting for equal rights, not to force women to have sex with men they don't want to.

This is a bit of a stupid argument because it's not like short people suffer from "heightism" in the same way that non-whites suffer from racism. People do take into account many factors, but most of them are subconscious.

Anyone who thinks, "she would be attractive if she wasn't black" or something is being racist, but someone thinking, "I feel awkward being so much taller than my partner," isn't really discriminating against short people, but just doesn't feel comfortable and confident around that person. I think there is a difference there.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I can also say that, in Scandinavia, it's much the same. Many Finnish women in particular find Black, Turkish, even thick dark-haired Italians as the absolute epitome of sexy. But the guys? Oh, they're not really interested in the immigrant girls...
how do lewsbians there feeel boaut mexican amarican swomen?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I heard that the m,en of nweew zelaeand (no godnnas evean heard of that place) areef forb iddenn to marry austrians because they are threr worseyt mirmsaides

[hatzel]

Your comment is heading into dangerous territory, because this "foreign men with our women" commentary is often employed by far right groups who make dubious rape statistic claims. Everyone should just be free to date whoever they want. If a man or woman doesn't want to date a certain person they shouldn't be forced to. What I'm saying is that access to sex with another ethnic group's women is not a human right, its the decision of the individual woman herself.

Ah...I don't remember claiming anything other than this...

My (admittedly unproven) belief that black male-white female relationships are more common has nothing to do with trying to force black women into relationships with white men. In fact, I would have absolutely no problem if, through matter of choice, there was not a single interracial relationship. Nor would I have a problem if, through matter of choice, every relationship was interracial (though I think this would be a statistic impossibility...). Merely making observations doesn't support or condemn the situation, it's just how I see it.

And at Milke: I understand the issues of basing stuff on observation entirely. However, I do get the feeling that there is some legitimacy to the idea. I mean, if I walk through the streets of London, and notice couples. And I notice white-white couples, and I notice black male-white female couples, but I don't remember ever noticing a black-Asian couple, or something else...sure, this isn't to say that black-Asian couples don't exist, and I wouldn't claim so. I'd claim that it either means they are less common, or these people don't openly flaunt it, for some reason. Perhaps, for instance, black male-white female relationships are as common as white male-black female relationships, and the only reason I think it isn't is because people in the latter relationships don't walk around holding hands, kissing, anything like that. Perhaps because they feel less comfortable 'flaunting' this relationship than others do. Which would most likely be a societal concern.

[hatzel]

I heard that the m,en of nweew zelaeand (no godnnas evean heard of that place) areef forb iddenn to marry austrians because they are threr worseyt mirmsaides

Do you mean Australians, and are you using the show Flight of the Conchords as a source? :laugh:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Do you mean Australians, and are you using the show Flight of the Conchords as a source? :laugh:
Something like that. I live in Wisconsin.

[Obzervi]

Anyone who thinks, "she would be attractive if she wasn't black" or something is being racist, but someone thinking, "I feel awkward being so much taller than my partner," isn't really discriminating against short people, but just doesn't feel comfortable and confident around that person. I think there is a difference there.

Height and skin color are both physical features, discriminating against both is bad.

And my comment about not forcing women to have sex with men they don't want to has to do with affirmative action, we can make sure employers don't discriminate but forcing women to have sex with a man of a different race would be wrong.

[Queercommie Girl]

Hit a sore point did we? :rolleyes: A lot of whites are racist. That is the truth. Just as most Asian immigrants in America are racist. Pretending that isn't the case isn't going to change the reality.

No it's just that as a Chinese person I feel that I simply don't have the capital to be racist. Other Asians like Japanese and Koreans may feel differently, but China really has been quite a pathetic and weak country in the last 150 - 200 years, being constantly on the receiving end of Western and Japanese imperialism, with countless of our countrymen and countrywomen massacred, enslaved, raped and violated. With slogans like "Chinese and dogs cannot enter" explicitly placed in our own cities. With our people being tramped on like dogs and pigs by colonialists.

How can Chinese people be racist towards others? What "capital" do we have in order to be racist towards others? We are already the "bottom barrel" of human civilisation.

[syndicat]

How can Chinese people be racist towards others? What "capital" do we have in order to be racist towards others? We are already the "bottom barrel" of human civilisation.

in my observation this varies with the person as with other groups. one of my Chinese-American female friends (she's very American, not an immigrant) has a black male partner. she's also very working class and has Left views.

on the other hand, when I was working at a certain large computer company, my supervisor, who was an immigrant from Taiwan, showed he was prejudiced against my office mate, an African-American, in comments he made to me, which reflected stereotypes about black people. i think he simply picked up prejudiced views from the society around him.

[Queercommie Girl]

in my observation this varies with the person as with other groups. one of my Chinese-American female friends (she's very American, not an immigrant) has a black male partner. she's also very working class and has Left views.

on the other hand, when I was working at a certain large computer company, my supervisor, who was an immigrant from Taiwan, showed he was prejudiced against my office mate, an African-American, in comments he made to me, which reflected stereotypes about black people. i think he simply picked up prejudiced views from the society around him.

Yes, the Taiwanese Chinese are different. Taiwan is a quite rich country actually. In terms of GDP per capita, they rank among the top nations of the world.

[revolution inaction]

a chinese person, from mainland china, that i knew was quite prejudiced against japanese people, although she has changed her views now

[syndicat]

Yes, the Taiwanese Chinese are different. Taiwan is a quite rich country actually. In terms of GDP per capita, they rank among the top nations of the world.

i don't think being from Taiwan explains it. there are many immigrants from India and China who work in the high tech sector here where i am. they vary tremendously in their degree of elitism or prejudice. I think it relates more to their experience, how diverse their life situation has been, their personal values, to what extent they've adapted to or been the target of American race prejudice.

[Queercommie Girl]

a chinese person, from mainland china, that i knew was quite prejudiced against japanese people, although she has changed her views now

Sometimes being racist a bit towards Japanese people isn't as wrong as the reverse option, given how much Japanese imperialism has damaged China in the last 100 years. It's like Irish people being racist to the English. I have more sympathies towards the IRA and Sinn Fein than the Unionists.

[revolution inaction]

Sometimes being racist a bit towards Japanese people isn't as wrong as the reverse option, given how much Japanese imperialism has damaged China in the last 100 years. It's like Irish people being racist to the English. I have more sympathies towards the IRA and Sinn Fein than the Unionists.

being racist is just as wrong and stupid regardless of who is being racist against who. Hating japanese people because of what there government did makes no sense because the people do not control there government.
The same applies to irish racists.

[Dr Mindbender]

being racist is just as wrong and stupid regardless of who is being racist against who. Hating japanese people because of what there government did makes no sense because the people do not control there government.
The same applies to irish racists.

I do not know what the average japanese feel about their country's activities in China but certainly the majority of English people feel that Britain has no place in Ireland. You will more often that not hear English people when they talk about Ireland refer to both NI and the ROI in unified terms, even when they refer to NI (much to the anger of indigenous unionists i might add).

[Queercommie Girl]

being racist is just as wrong and stupid regardless of who is being racist against who. Hating japanese people because of what there government did makes no sense because the people do not control there government.
The same applies to irish racists.

I didn't say it's right, I'm saying it's not the same, because the power relations are not equal.

Just like a capitalist killing a worker and a worker killing a capitalist may be completely identical for bourgeois advocates of "universal values", but for a socialist they are not equal, there have been a few cases of workers murdering capitalists in China semi-terrorist fashion which I have literally supported even though they were literally cases of murder strictly speaking.

Of course, this is a limited analogy, because the division between an oppressor nation and an oppressed nation as a whole is still quantitative while the division between a capitalist and a worker is qualitative.

"Universal values" in the bourgeois sense can't exist, because in reality power relations are never equal. "One person, one vote" doesn't give equal powers to everyone because quite clearly big capitalists have far more actual socio-economic powers than ordinary workers.

You cannot as a starting point of your ethics assume that "everyone is already equal", because they are not. So preferential consideration must be given to the disadvantaged side, like in "affirmative action" programmes.

[Queercommie Girl]

I do not know what the average japanese feel about their country's activities in China but certainly the majority of English people feel that Britain has no place in Ireland. You will more often that not hear English people when they talk about Ireland refer to both NI and the ROI in unified terms, even when they refer to NI (much to the anger of indigenous unionists i might add).

Compared with Europeans, the Japanese ruling class is notoriously unrepentant about its great past crimes in Asia, and the prime ministers of Japan still visit the Shinto shrines that essentially revere war criminals.

Among the newer generations of Japanese youths, however, more progressive attitudes are taking hold.

[syndicat]

in the U.S., however, Japanese-Americans, in my experience, are highly anti-racist. that community was tremendously affected by their racist internment in concentration camps during World War 2.

on the topic of this thread, i was sitting in a restaurant last nite in an "upper middle class" neighborhood. on one side of me there was a 40sish African-American man and his white blond partner and 2 apparently "mixed" boys. next to me was a youngish good-looking white guy and his gorgeous bronze complected African-American female companion. they were sort of eyeing the other couple. I think i overheard him say "We could do something like that." nobody in the restaurant paid any special attention to these couples.

[Os Cangaceiros]

How can Chinese people be racist towards others? What "capital" do we have in order to be racist towards others? We are already the "bottom barrel" of human civilisation.

Some Chinese immigrants look down on their fellow Asians from places like Cambodia, Vietnam, the Phillipines etc.

You can deny that if you want, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Some Chinese immigrants look down on their fellow Asians from places like Cambodia, Vietnam, the Phillipines etc.

You can deny that if you want, but that doesn't make it any less true.

This kinds of discussions always got to much of eurocentrism. There is a hughe difference betwen people frome north-western China and the Phillipines, like it is a hughe difference betwen someone frome the Faroe Islands and Bulgaria, so to say something like fellow asinas just doesnt work in this case.

[Queercommie Girl]

Some Chinese immigrants look down on their fellow Asians from places like Cambodia, Vietnam, the Phillipines etc.

You can deny that if you want, but that doesn't make it any less true.

My guess is that these are probably Chinese people from the richer parts of the world, like Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia etc, rather than from the poor and underdeveloped hinterlands of the mainland.

Even Chinese from Shanghai are racist towards Chinese from North China.

[rubashov]

Yes, the Taiwanese Chinese are different. Taiwan is a quite rich country actually. In terms of GDP per capita, they rank among the top nations of the world.
Don't forget Hong Kong. When I was there, the way they treated us simply for speaking mandarin and not cantonese was like trash.

[Os Cangaceiros]

so to say something like fellow asinas just doesnt work in this case.

Both hail from the continent of Asia, hence "fellow Asians". I said nothing about their respective cultures.

[Os Cangaceiros]

My guess is that these are probably Chinese people from the richer parts of the world, like Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia etc, rather than from the poor and underdeveloped hinterlands of the mainland.

Even Chinese from Shanghai are racist towards Chinese from North China.

So in your opinion poor people can't be racist?

[Queercommie Girl]

So in your opinion poor people can't be racist?

Poor people are statistically much less likely to be racist against other poor people. Perhaps they sometimes can be racist towards their rich oppressors in a "reverse racism" kind of way.

I've seen many white people who are racist against the Chinese, but I've never experienced racism against the Chinese from blacks.

The "universalist" line that "everyone can be just as racist as everyone else" is simply irrational from a Marxist point of view. From a Marxist point of view, how did racism emerge in the first place? Marxists do not believe racism is "natural", but rather it is mainly a consequence of class society, of the differentiation of the world into "rich people" and "poor people", into "rich nations" and "poor nations" etc. Therefore it must be the case that one's economic situation has a direct influence on how racist one is, and in what way.

[revolution inaction]

I do not know what the average japanese feel about their country's activities in China but certainly the majority of English people feel that Britain has no place in Ireland. You will more often that not hear English people when they talk about Ireland refer to both NI and the ROI in unified terms, even when they refer to NI (much to the anger of indigenous unionists i might add).
i don't think the irish government has any more busyness in ireland than the british one does.



I didn't say it's right, I'm saying it's not the same, because the power relations are not equal.

Just like a capitalist killing a worker and a worker killing a capitalist may be completely identical for bourgeois advocates of "universal values", but for a socialist they are not equal, there have been a few cases of workers murdering capitalists in China semi-terrorist fashion which I have literally supported even though they were literally cases of murder strictly speaking.

Of course, this is a limited analogy, because the division between an oppressor nation and an oppressed nation as a whole is still quantitative while the division between a capitalist and a worker is qualitative.

"Universal values" in the bourgeois sense can't exist, because in reality power relations are never equal. "One person, one vote" doesn't give equal powers to everyone because quite clearly big capitalists have far more actual socio-economic powers than ordinary workers.

You cannot as a starting point of your ethics assume that "everyone is already equal", because they are not. So preferential consideration must be given to the disadvantaged side, like in "affirmative action" programmes.

japanese proletariats do not have power over chinese proletariats




Compared with Europeans, the Japanese ruling class is notoriously unrepentant about its great past crimes in Asia, and the prime ministers of Japan still visit the Shinto shrines that essentially revere war criminals.

Among the newer generations of Japanese youths, however, more progressive attitudes are taking hold.

here again you confuse, the nation, the working class and the ruling class.
the average japanese person is not aware of what there country did in china, and many of the ones that do oppose it being eliminated for school text books etc.

[Queercommie Girl]

japanese proletariats do not have power over chinese proletariats


Not directly perhaps, but Japan being a much richer country also means its working class is objectively in a better economic position than the Chinese working class.

Also, most of the Japanese soldiers who committed great atrocities in China were actually technically a part of the working class. You could say being soldiers, they are traitors to the class, but they still originated from the working class initially.



here again you confuse, the nation, the working class and the ruling class.
the average japanese person is not aware of what there country did in china, and many of the ones that do oppose it being eliminated for school text books etc.
No I'm not confusing them at all, which is why I specifically mentioned the Japanese ruling class being reactionary relative to Japan's past war crimes, not the Japanese people as a whole.

Obviously it's wrong to think that the Japanese people as a whole is anti-China, but unfortunately due to the reactionary propaganda of Japan's right-wing ruling class, in recent months and weeks some degree of anti-China propaganda has been stirred up again in certain sections of the Japanese population, you should follow the news a bit more.

Workers of different countries may objectively share common interests, but they are also prone to be affected negatively by the reactionary propaganda of their respective ruling classes. It is utopian to assume that the entire global working class would just "automatically" be in unity. Working class unity is something that has to be fought for in a very hard manner. It doesn't come easily at all.

[Coggeh]

Not directly perhaps, but Japan being a much richer country also means its working class is objectively in a better economic position than the Chinese working class.

Also, most of the Japanese soldiers who committed great atrocities in China were actually technically a part of the working class. You could say being soldiers, they are traitors to the class, but they still originated from the working class initially.



No I'm not confusing them at all, which is why I specifically mentioned the Japanese ruling class being reactionary relative to Japan's past war crimes, not the Japanese people as a whole.

Obviously it's wrong to think that the Japanese people as a whole is anti-China, but unfortunately due to the reactionary propaganda of Japan's right-wing ruling class, in recent months and weeks some degree of anti-China propaganda has been stirred up again in certain sections of the Japanese population, you should follow the news a bit more.

Workers of different countries may objectively share common interests, but they are also prone to be affected negatively by the reactionary propaganda of their respective ruling classes. It is utopian to assume that the entire global working class would just "automatically" be in unity. Working class unity is something that has to be fought for in a very hard manner. It doesn't come easier at all.
Once you acknowledge that the working class of Japan are not to blame for the atrocities in China and that all working class of every country are susceptible to ruling class propaganda and it doesn't make them "evil" to believe some of it then ... I don't see the problem really.

[Queercommie Girl]

Once you acknowledge that the working class of Japan are not to blame for the atrocities in China and that all working class of every country are susceptible to ruling class propaganda and it doesn't make them "evil" to believe some of it then ... I don't see the problem really.

My point is that "Japanese-against-Chinese racism" is not the same as "Chinese-against-Japanese racism" given the history of colonialism in recent times.

Just like while it's not the case that women can't be sexist towards men, generally speaking "women-against-men" sexism is still not the same as "men-against-women" sexism.

The power relations are different. This is essentially why the "universal values" promoted by the bourgeois are flawed.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Poor people are statistically much less likely to be racist against other poor people. Perhaps they sometimes can be racist towards their rich oppressors in a "reverse racism" kind of way.

I'd like to see the statistics related to this. Certainly many communities have problems with members of the underclass loathing each other...take a poll of people in an Hispanic neighborhood in poor southern California neighborhood in regards to their opinion about black people, for example, or take a poll of working-class blacks about how they feel about illegal immigrants from Mexico.


The "universalist" line that "everyone can be just as racist as everyone else" is simply irrational from a Marxist point of view. From a Marxist point of view, how did racism emerge in the first place?

Racism as a power system and economic motive certainly is not natural, but bigotry most definitely is. Sorry, but I don't buy your argument that poor and/or oppressed people are less likely to be bigots for one minute. It flies directly in the face of many of my life experiences

[progressive_lefty]

I know some Koreans like to think of themselves as separate Asians. I was talking to a Korean and said, 'What language were Korean people speaking before Korean?' - he said 'They don't know'. I've met some Koreans who hate the Chinese, and refuse to admit that essentially at some stage, they were one and the same thing.
I think Korean people and culture are relatively different to most Asians. They're far more conservative and highly materialistic. They seem to be somewhere between Asia and the US. Sometimes when I talk to a Korean, I feel like I'm talking to an American.

[Queercommie Girl]

Racism as a power system and economic motive certainly is not natural, but bigotry most definitely is. Sorry, but I don't buy your argument that poor and/or oppressed people are less likely to be bigots for one minute. It flies directly in the face of many of my life experiences


If bigotry is "natural", does this mean it will forever persist even if class society and economic inequality is completely abolished? Are you saying humanity can never live in a world that is completely free from racism etc?

[Manic Impressive]

I know some Koreans like to think of themselves as separate Asians. I was talking to a Korean and said, 'What language were Korean people speaking before Korean?' - he said 'They don't know'. I've met some Koreans who hate the Chinese, and refuse to admit that essentially at some stage, they were one and the same thing.
I think Korean people and culture are relatively different to most Asians. They're far more conservative and highly materialistic. They seem to be somewhere between Asia and the US. Sometimes when I talk to a Korean, I feel like I'm talking to an American.

The Korean alphabet was created in 15th century supposedly by a king (I forget the name) before the modern version was created they used classical Chinese symbols to write with but these would have been used phonetically to represent the language used in Korea at the time. Korean people do generally look quite different from their Japanese and Chinese neighbours and I've been told that South Koreans are on average about 2 inches taller.
I went to South Korea last year and to be honest I was a little disappointed with Seoul, really could have been any city in Europe or America with a Starbucks or McDonald's on every corner. I don't think you can blame the South Korean people for being conservative or materialistic personally I'd blame the blatant imperialism of the US. I've never seen such a prime example of a countries culture being eroded as I saw there. Also you really can't say "They're far more conservative and highly materialistic." when 1/2 of the country is supposedly working towards communism.


How can Chinese people be racist towards others? What "capital" do we have in order to be racist towards others? We are already the "bottom barrel" of human civilisation.

Also while in Korea I was having lunch with a female friend, I tried to attract the attention of the waitress. The elderly waitress completely ignored me several times and I asked my friend if my pronunciation was wrong. Looking rather annoyed my friend said that my pronunciation was fine and that the elderly woman was Chinese and did not like the fact that she was having lunch with a guai lo or wai gook. She then proceeded to call the waitress exactly the same way I had and tore her a new one, it was mildly annoying but also quite funny.

[progressive_lefty]

The Korean alphabet was created in 15th century supposedly by a king (I forget the name) before the modern version was created they used classical Chinese symbols to write with but these would have been used phonetically to represent the language used in Korea at the time. Korean people do generally look quite different from their Japanese and Chinese neighbours and I've been told that South Koreans are on average about 2 inches taller.
I went to South Korea last year and to be honest I was a little disappointed with Seoul, really could have been any city in Europe or America with a Starbucks or McDonald's on every corner. I don't think you can blame the South Korean people for being conservative or materialistic personally I'd blame the blatant imperialism of the US. I've never seen such a prime example of a countries culture being eroded as I saw there. Also you really can't say "They're far more conservative and highly materialistic." when 1/2 of the country is supposedly working towards communism.

I was referring to South Koreans. And I am partially familiar with the Korean language and alphabet (hangul). Obviously not all South Koreans are materialistic, but I feel like a lot of them are. I can see the point your making about the influence of US imperialism, but I think Australia - which is also polluted with American tv shows, doesn't have as a materialistic oriented population in comparison. I think obviously yes, we are pretty materialistic in Australia, but definitely not like South Korea or even America. I don't think Australians are as obsessed with brand new clothes and 'good looks'.

I don't think Koreans look soo different, I find some Koreans look similar to Chinese, or that some Chinese look very similar to Koreans. I also find some Japanese look very Korean or vice versa.

[Manic Impressive]

I was referring to South Koreans. Although there are quite a few differences between the people they've only been separated for 65 years.


Obviously not all South Koreans are materialistic, but I feel like a lot of them are. I can see the point your making about the influence of US imperialism, but I think Australia - which is also polluted with American tv shows, doesn't have as a materialistic oriented population in comparison. I think obviously yes, we are pretty materialistic in Australia, but definitely not like South Korea or even America. I don't think Australians are as obsessed with brand new clothes and 'good looks'.
I know what you're saying and I agree there does seem to be a very materialistic culture in Korea. The difference is the USA has not invested as much money into Australia and although I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of American troops stationed somewhere in Australia, I doubt they have a huge military base in the centre of Melbourne. The base in Seoul I'm sure has been a major contributing factor to the Americanization of the country.


I don't think Koreans look soo different, I find some Koreans look similar to Chinese, or that some Chinese look very similar to Koreans. I also find some Japanese look very Korean or vice versa.

Yeah of course, but then you could say I (from Irish decent) look like some Italians or Russians or Spanish.

(I think we're a bit off topic :tt2: )