Council Communism & The Vanguard

[Magón]

So today after my classes, I was speaking to some friends from out of country and state, who decided to drop in on me. Both of whom are Council Communists, and what I'd say to be very knowledgable on Council Communism's whole way of thinking, etc. But today, the two, who I thought would be equally agreeing were totally opposite. Or at least, somewhat opposing of each other, while I was just sort of the middle man who said Vanguards are dumb.

So basically my question, as one of my friends stated to me and had me at a loss was, "Can, if in a Revolutionary setting, where the workers are rising up against their oppressors, can those who are Council Communists fully work and begin a Vanguard themselves while still calling themselves Council Communists?"


Because from what I know of Council Communism, the idea is like that of Anarcho-Syndicalism (or just Libertarian Socialism) a bit, where it's the workers in the fields, factories, etc. rising up on their own, rather than having a Vanguard Elite lead them, since Vanguards often believe the workers cannot reach such a goal as Communism on their own without a more conscious group leading.

So basically to all Council Communists out there, and on here, would you support a Vanguard or try and find another way to raise class consciousness and revolution?

[fa2991]

Why would you think CCs are anti-Vanguard?

(or Anarcho-Syndicalists...?)

[ContrarianLemming]

From my readings on libcom, which has a decent council com group, council communism is not compatible with a traditional vangaurd group

However, when anarchists and leftcoms talk about vangaurds negatively, they're almost certainly only refering to party vangaurdism, or leninist vangaurdism, I point out that social anarchists and lib marxists most certainly believe in vangaudism.

why? Well what is vangaurdism? A vangaurd is a group of people who steer a movement in there ideological direction, this is the broadest definition and this is why the anarchist FAI considered themselves anarchist vangaurdists, and this is why I believe all social anarchists (save insurrectos) are indeed vangaurdists, and - by extension - all left coms, including council coms, are vangaurdists, just not in the traditonal sense

I know that council coms most certainly support organizations and federations and movements to educate workers, and a revolution based around an organization/federation (none of the spontanious crap), voile! Vangaurdism!

your friends are using a stereotyical definition of vangaurdism, ergo, the hierarchal kind. I for one am an anarchist vangaurdist, and it's completely compatible, the CNT-FAI were most certainly a vangaurd group, they called themselves vangaurds, and if it applies to anarchists it probably applies to council coms.

[AK]

Generally, "anti-vanguardists" only oppose groups that try to place themselves at the centre of the movement and tend to manage to become a post-revolutionary authority.

[fa2991]

why? Well what is vangaurdism? A vangaurd is a group of people who steer a movement in there ideological direction, this is the broadest definition and this is why the anarchist FAI considered themselves anarchist vangaurdists, and this is why I believe all social anarchists (save insurrectos) are indeed vangaurdists, and - by extension - all left coms, including council coms, are vangaurdists, just not in the traditonal sense.

I'd rather just saw a group than "a group of people." I'd reject a vanguard controlled by a few people.

[Magón]

Why would you think CCs are anti-Vanguard?

(or Anarcho-Syndicalists...?)

I didn't mean they were Anarcho-Syndicalists, just that the two ideas share similar points of view on things. (Such as Vanguardism.) And I was specifically speaking about the tradition Vanguard, like the Vanguard Elite ala Russia.

One of my friends in this conversation, was speaking on how as a Council Communist, it wasn't hard or wouldn't be unreasonable for a Council Communist force or person to work with a Vanguard Elite. Which is opposing what Council Communism from my knowledge on the matter is, because I was always told and read that like Anarcho-Syndicalists, it was a grass roots, workers themselves taking power; rather this Vanguard Elitist force taking charge.

That's what I meant.

[Devrim]

why? Well what is vangaurdism? A vangaurd is a group of people who steer a movement in there ideological direction, this is the broadest definition and this is why the anarchist FAI considered themselves anarchist vangaurdists, and this is why I believe all social anarchists (save insurrectos) are indeed vangaurdists, and - by extension - all left coms, including council coms, are vangaurdists, just not in the traditonal sense
...
your friends are using a stereotyical definition of vangaurdism, ergo, the hierarchal kind. I for one am an anarchist vangaurdist, and it's completely compatible, the CNT-FAI were most certainly a vangaurd group, they called themselves vangaurds, and if it applies to anarchists it probably applies to council coms.

I think that CL has it spot on. Most council communists and anarchists believe in a 'vanguard' in the sense that Marx talked about the historic part, not the formal party. I think the actual question is whether they believe that a vanguard party should take state power to which both would answer no.

Devrim