Come in here for a dumb argument

[Lt. Ferret]

yeah cept when you give the finger the secret police go take you to a labor camp where you are enslaved until you die.

[#FF0000]

yeah cept when you give the finger the secret police go take you to a labor camp where you are enslaved until you die.

No that's a tremendous waste of resources

[Lt. Ferret]

must be my imagination. guess that never happened. repeatedly. a million times over.

[Jazzratt]

No that's a tremendous waste of resources Don't try to bamboozle us with your "logic" and your "common sense"!


must be my imagination. guess that never happened. repeatedly. a million times over. So close. if you'd aimed a little higher than just the one million then you could have sounded like the perfect clueless failure.

[Lt. Ferret]

its true all oppression in communist countries is an imperialist lie. all of it.

[communard71]

Hety butterbar ferret, wasn't Fort Sill a place where that capitalist general Sheridan could strike out against "rebellious" tribes? Talk about a secret police (7th Cav)!

[Lt. Ferret]

Yeah and Geronimo is buried here, anymore irrelevent facts need to be brought up?

[Jazzratt]

its true all oppression in communist countries is an imperialist lie. all of it. Ah, sorry I didn't realise that the only possible views on the former USSR was that it was either a massive hellhole where the secret police worked you to death in the salt mines as soon as you wished you had a bit more bread or it was a total paradise free of all oppression. Thanks for reminding me.

[Lt. Ferret]

Ah, sorry I didn't realise that the only possible views on the former USSR was that it was either a massive hellhole where the secret police worked you to death in the salt mines as soon as you wished you had a bit more bread or it was a total paradise free of all oppression. Thanks for reminding me.


obviously its free from criticism! that, china, north korea, laos, and vietnam! Stupid me.

[#FF0000]

obviously its free from criticism! that, china, north korea, laos, and vietnam! Stupid me.

so it was one or the other i guess huh

[Lt. Ferret]

so it was one or the other i guess huh


if we had to choose one, paradise is not the correct choice.

[#FF0000]

if we had to choose one, paradise is not the correct choice.

oh and here i was thinking history and everything about the world was complicated. gee.

[communard71]

I thought my point was extremely relevant Lt., that oppression is not endemic to communist societies by any stretch of the imagination. Millions have perished because wealthy businessmen have refuse d to allocate more resources to the proletariat. Is that less significant than Stalinist oppression? Is a cavalryman dispatched from that hell-hole post that blew some kids brains out more or less virtuous than a red army soldier who killed a kulak? Oppression and violence are everywhere, not exclusively in communist countries.

[Lt. Ferret]

I thought my point was extremely relevant Lt., that oppression is not endemic to communist societies by any stretch of the imagination. Millions have perished because wealthy businessmen have refuse d to allocate more resources to the proletariat. Is that less significant than Stalinist oppression? Is a cavalryman dispatched from that hell-hole post that blew some kids brains out more or less virtuous than a red army soldier who killed a kulak? Oppression and violence are everywhere, not exclusively in communist countries.


i would never argue violence is exclusive to communists, and im not necessarily an ardent anti-communist. but the wholesale slaughter of populations under stalinism and maoism is ridiculous in its barbarity and vast reach. the onyl thing i could think of that compares is the Rwandan genocide in the mid 90's. In my personal opinion, that takes the case for arbitrary, widespread violence.

[communard71]

So what should be done to end the hunger and inequality, more unfettered capitalism? And by the way Lt., Stalinism and Maoism doesn't adhere exactly to Marxist ideology regarding mass murder, which is, if you’re curious, don't do it.

[#FF0000]

i would never argue violence is exclusive to communists, and im not necessarily an ardent anti-communist. but the wholesale slaughter of populations under stalinism and maoism is ridiculous in its barbarity and vast reach. the onyl thing i could think of that compares is the Rwandan genocide in the mid 90's. In my personal opinion, that takes the case for arbitrary, widespread violence.

yeah except what happened in the USSR and especially China wasn't like "oh stalin said we have to go out and kill this many people today and throw them in the GULAG hurf durf".

Both countries had governments with all sorts of factions and bodies acting without oversight and through backroom deals, all while trying to build an industrial society out of what were basically gigantic farm communities that everyone else in the world wanted to blow up.

So yeah.

[Nolan]

i would never argue violence is exclusive to communists, and im not necessarily an ardent anti-communist. but the wholesale slaughter of populations under stalinism and maoism is ridiculous in its barbarity and vast reach. the onyl thing i could think of that compares is the Rwandan genocide in the mid 90's. In my personal opinion, that takes the case for arbitrary, widespread violence.

Wholesale slaughter of populations (i.e. genocide), you say? Where in Stalinism or Maoism? You mean like those pesky Native Americans, Africans, and Indians? Solely on the basis of their ethnic backgrounds? Or the general poverty spawned by neocolonialism everywhere today?

This line of argument is tired. Cut the double standard you lackey.

[Nolan]

yeah except what happened in the USSR and especially China wasn't like "oh stalin said we have to go out and kill this many people today and throw them in the GULAG hurf durf".

Both countries had governments with all sorts of factions and bodies acting without oversight and through backroom deals, all while trying to build an industrial society out of what were basically gigantic farm communities that everyone else in the world wanted to blow up.

So yeah.

You're probably just casting pearls before swine.

[Dean]

yeah cept when you give the finger the secret police go take you to a labor camp where you are enslaved until you die.

I hope you are tortured by Islamic extremists in one of the nations you help to occupy and disperse the economic interests to US capitalist firms.

[Plagueround]

My ancestors arrived in Okla Homma because of a forced, ethnic-cleansing based march. Just sayin'.

Well...some of them also went there to build the railroad. Toot toot!

[Che a chara]

Here motherfucker, nowhere in communist ideology does it support the mass oppression that you highlight. The basic teaching of communism is equality for all. now how does that fit in with the deaths and abuses carried our under the likes of Stalin and Mao ? quite simply it doesn't.

Follow marxism and you wont go wrong. ;)

[#FF0000]

Here motherfucker, nowhere in communist ideology does it support the mass oppression that you highlight. The basic teaching of communism is equality for all. now how does that fit in with the deaths and abuses carried our under the likes of Stalin and Mao ? quite simply it doesn't.

Follow marxism and you wont go wrong. ;)

Eh this is kind of a cop out and a bad response I think.

[Che a chara]

Eh this is kind of a cop out and a bad response I think.

i think it's common sense and fact. There needs to be a clear distinction between what communism is and what went on under it's guise in the past. Saying otherwise only feeds the 'anti' propaganda that the whole ideology is based on human rights abuses and starvation. Do you think marxism teaches us that ?

[Lt. Ferret]

I hope you are tortured by Islamic extremists in one of the nations you help to occupy and disperse the economic interests to US capitalist firms.


haha i bet this guy ain't getting any infractions.

[Lt. Ferret]

i think it's common sense and fact. There needs to be a clear distinction between what communism is and what went on under it's guise in the past. Saying otherwise only feeds the 'anti' propaganda that the whole ideology is based on human rights abuses and starvation. Do you think marxism teaches us that ?

bad stuff happened under communism. is communism a good theory? sure. bad stuff happened under capitalism. is capitalism a good theory? i would say yes. bad stuff happened under countries following religious doctrines. are religious doctrines good? most people would say yes.

most theories of almost anything are good, and honorable. very few people will willingly follow a theory that is outright, unabashedly evil.

acknowledging that something bad occurred under the banner of good doesnt discredit the ideology, but it is foolish and a complete cop out to ignore it totally because it wasn't doctrinally pure. putting your head in the sand about bad things that happen under your banner is the quickest way to get people to not even seriously consider your point of view.

[communard71]

most theories of almost anything are good, and honorable. very few people will willingly follow a theory that is outright, unabashedly evil.


Except Fascism, the Inquisition. Whats your point anymore in this thread Lt? Bad things happen in the world?

[Lt. Ferret]

My point is that bad things happen in this world, and when they occur, going "BUT BUT BUT THATS NOT HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE" is not a legitimate argument to it.


Fascism being a pretty good point. Have you ever read Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism? It sounds wonderful, it's not filled with hate-filled diatribes, it talks about averting the workers revolution but making sure capitalists never oppress a single man again.

and we saw what happened when the Fascists got in power. Saying "but but but thats not how fascism was supposed to play out!" doesn't make Fascism a legitimate choice to most people.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Stupid me.

Agree.

[Lt. Ferret]

Agree.


umad?

[Jazzhands]

Well I must say, the title fits well.

[#FF0000]

You know Ferret actually has a good point and it's something I've been saying for a long time.

[Lt. Ferret]

Starting my day drinking 200 dollar scotch and arguing on the internet. feels good, man.


thank you for that. I have these discussions with other people and especially libertarians and they try to dodge it and i think its one of the more important aspects to discussing ideologies, especially when you see them at play.

[Bud Struggle]

My point is that bad things happen in this world, and when they occur, going "BUT BUT BUT THATS NOT HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE" is not a legitimate argument to it.


Quite right. But the point of RevLeft is to explore the rough edges of where Communism went wrong (and to be honest there are those here who will say it never did) and then figure out a way to make it work correctly.

There is nothing wrong with arguing with these folks--heven knows I do it all of the time, but tyou have to be honest. When they make a good point it should be recognized, and they do make a fair number of those points.

One the whole though RevLeft is more of a LEARNING place than debate club. There's nothing wrong with learning about things you don't agree with. Really for the most part the posters here at revleft are decent people who want to change the world for the better--they aren't looking to take over the world--they just want a more fair and equitable distribution of the world's good. Less starvation less poverty less wars and if the price for that is a few less rich people. they are willing to make that sacrifice.

I am personally a Capitalist but I've been around here for a while and it's quite an enjoyable learning enviornment.

If I may suggest---relax.

[Lt. Ferret]

:cool: This is my cool face, bro. Honestly the only bad taste in my mouth about this place is I got restricetd.

[Bud Struggle]

:cool: This is my cool face, bro. Honestly the only bad taste in my mouth about this place is I got restricetd.

The honchos have a bit of the old OCD when it comes to who is a Communist--but don't let it bother you. Nothing really interesting goes on in rest of RevLeft anyway. That part is all about marching together and singing songs, a lot of advice of what to do when your mom throws you out of the garage, lots of discussion by kids about the value of Rogaine for growing a Stalin mustache* and what kind of styling gel works best at getting the "full Trotsky" (as they call it) hair style.

OI is where all of the interesting discussions take place. Welcome to RevLeft. :)

*If you ever see a 14 year old with a giant porno mustache on the street--you know you just ran into a fellow RevLefter.

[#FF0000]

*If you ever see a 14 year old with a giant porno mustache on the street--you know you just ran into a fellow RevLefter.

It's almost frightening how right you are.

[Ele'ill]

I must have missed the point of this thread-

Lt Ferret- Did you have any questions or are you using this thread to complain about your restriction?

[Ele'ill]

The honchos have a bit of the old OCD when it comes to who is a Communist--but don't let it bother you. Nothing really interesting goes on in rest of RevLeft anyway. That part is all about marching together and singing songs, a lot of advice of what to do when your mom throws you out of the garage, lots of discussion by kids about the value of Rogaine for growing a Stalin mustache* and what kind of styling gel works best at getting the "full Trotsky" (as they call it) hair style.

OI is where all of the interesting discussions take place. Welcome to RevLeft. :)

*If you ever see a 14 year old with a giant porno mustache on the street--you know you just ran into a fellow RevLefter.


Yes, OI is exclusively designated for those with severe superiority complexes.

[Ele'ill]

In advance- The shoe didn't fit.

[Bud Struggle]

Yes, OI is exclusively designated for those with severe superiority complexes.

It's the 14 yo women with the Stalin mustaches that scare me the most.

[Lt. Ferret]

I must have missed the point of this thread-

Lt Ferret- Did you have any questions or are you using this thread to complain about your restriction?


this thread was split so its existence is out of my hands.

[Ele'ill]

I'm surprised there aren't more revlefters posting in this thread- now that it's about hipsters.

I've been asked the question- 'so communism is going to get another go to see what it potential is?- what will they do when they succeed and then capitalists begin to talk about Capitalism being hijacked back in the day and how it wasn't genuine capitalism- and the solution being regulation etc..."

I think the answer is that capitalism is natively exploitive in regards to labor. This inevitably leads to a top down system- that's just the way the structure is. This leads to a lot of the other issues we see. You can't regulate a system designed to exploit- the system would collapse.

My main criticism right now from an American perspective is that the majority of the people in the United States are not ready or well suited to be a part of their own communities. I know that doesn't initially make sense. They're so conditioned to be inactive in the world around them. If there will be community action meetings- even by neighborhood- it will still be a few people making decisions for the majority- regardless of their opposition to this.

How do we combat apathy? Do we need to?

Would we meet- make decisions among those that show up and leaflet prior to taking action- to let everyone else know what's going on?


What would the first stages of various leftist ideologies look like at a neighborhood level?



(there you go Lt. Ferret- I'll get this thread started for you- out of altruism not authoritarianism)

[Dean]

Starting my day drinking 200 dollar scotch and arguing on the internet. feels good, man.


thank you for that. I have these discussions with other people and especially libertarians and they try to dodge it and i think its one of the more important aspects to discussing ideologies, especially when you see them at play.
Are you talking about this?

My point is that bad things happen in this world, and when they occur, going "BUT BUT BUT THATS NOT HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE" is not a legitimate argument to it.


Fascism being a pretty good point. Have you ever read Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism? It sounds wonderful, it's not filled with hate-filled diatribes, it talks about averting the workers revolution but making sure capitalists never oppress a single man again.

and we saw what happened when the Fascists got in power. Saying "but but but thats not how fascism was supposed to play out!" doesn't make Fascism a legitimate choice to most people.
It's a shit question when proposed to anyone because it has no specific argument. The same could just as easily be applied to things like the human being or society in general and you could reject or "refute" the human or society on precisely the same grounds.

In fact, it was, and always has been, the class character - that is the disparate level of economic/political power - that allows and enforces the loss of human life experienced as a result of the political models and policies enforced by "fascist and communist regimes."

And it is this unequal power distribution that communists seek to abolish.

[Lt. Ferret]

It's the fascists fault that some communists lined up innocent people against the wall and shot them?

[danyboy27]

about the other ''failed communist countries'' well, its kinda like if 4 people where trying to assemble 4 machine with the same corrupted blueprint, its bound to fail.

the fact that several countries repeated the mistake of the USSR did when they tried to achieve communism dosnt mean communism dosnt work, it just mean that the idea of communism developed in china and the ussr where either wrongly implented or where just plain wrong.

you dont just give up building a machine if the blueprint are corrupted, you work on the blueprint instead.

and that why communism cannot be refuted.

[Dean]

It's the fascists fault that some communists lined up innocent people against the wall and shot them?
What the fuck are you even trying to argue here? What a simple kid you are.

[Jazzhands]

about the other ''failed communist countries'' well, its kinda like if 4 people where trying to assemble 4 machine with the same corrupted blueprint, its bound to fail.

the fact that several countries repeated the mistake of the USSR did when they tried to achieve communism dosnt mean communism dosnt work, it just mean that the idea of communism developed in china and the ussr where either wrongly implented or where just plain wrong.

you dont just give up building a machine if the blueprint are corrupted, you work on the blueprint instead.

This X 1000.

You can't really compare it with fascism, as ferret consistently does. Fascism is designed to ensure the complete unity of the nation at the cost of everything else. And guess what? every time someone makes a single criticism, that undermines the unity of the nation. Which is why fascism is designed to destroy freedom and democracy (other than the fact that Mussolini actually says it outright), but Marxism is not.

Also, Mussolini led the first fascist state, but Marx did not lead a revolution. So you can't really compare them because one had a chance to implement his original ideas but the other didn't.


and that why communism cannot be refuted.

Oh come on. That's just a bit arrogant.