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Sovietcomrade232
18th September 2010, 02:04
Before you read this, keep in mind this is something I wrote for an online discussion several months back. Some stuff has been refined somewhat since then but its accurate to what I want to get across. Also Keep in mind this is my theory on the implementation and practice of communist theory on a society, not communist theory proper. It is also a very generalized explanation of what's going through my head. So tell me what you think:

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Communism is full of "ism's". Well this is Arickism. Why? Because my last name, gardner, would be misleading, and two, I worked on this theory entirely on my own, and I believe I'm entitled to that.

Over the course of this post, I will point out the many flaws of the Soviet System, and my version that not only corrects these flaws, but builds upon and removes the basis of serveral arguements against communism in favor of capitalism.

Let's start with the soviet system.

The soviets had the entire economy state owned. All of it is managed by Gosplan, the state planning commission. Now right off the bat, there is an issue. The entire economy is ran by a system with one huge over watching body. All inputs and outputs had to be managed, regulated and responded to. This requires a rediculous level of infomation processing. Also, the distance between this organization and the individual means of production is so great, that the realtime management is nearly, or completly impossible. Also the distance from the consumers is massive, rendering the input of "needs" nearly impossible to guage. This historically lead to the overemphasis on heavy industry, and a lack of consumer goods.

Gosplan managed the resource allocation and production targets of the entire nation, to meet the goals of the five year plan, set by the politburo. It also managed the interaction between industries on what was to be produced, sent where, and what was done with it.

Eventually when the plan goals were set by Gosplan, it was sent to planning ministires that drafted plans within thier jurisdictions and sent further down the chain of communtication, picking up greater detailes as it went along. Eventually the info went to individual enterprises who produced what was ordered.

Note the massive downward direction of communication. Now imagine sending info up the chain. Imagine thousands of factories, farms, and what not in a nation sending thier feedback back up to the Gosplan. Need I evaluate the problems with this? This is a ridiculously inefficient system that killed the soviet union and all nations that used this system, or something close.

But this is history, nothing new. What do I have that can make up for its drawbacks, and possibly end this crisis of theory?

Allow me to explain my "ism'. Arickism.

First off, allow me to tell you the general necessaries for my system to work. This system is built on the government being a democracy, there being freedom of speech, and there being no state control of the 'entire' economy. At least not in the since seen above.

I'll start from the ground up.

Workers payment. Under the soviet system, everyone was paid the same wage as long as they worked, regardless of how much they put in. Human nature tell us exactly what happens. This is often held against communism by capitalists. In this point, I agree with them. This policy, is ridiculously inefficient. Matter of fact, I believe it is so inefficient that I believe it and the Gosplan setup are the two primary reasons for the fall of the soviet union.

My system works like this. Keep in mind the numbers I will be using are for examples, and are not to be taking literally.

Everyone who works will be guaranteed a minimum of 50 dollars (or equivialent currency). The actual minimum will be set to the necessary levels to buy basic necessities, like food, water, etc.. the things required to live. They maximum paid will be a 1000, whos actual level will be determined by what is needed to be very well off in the standard of living.

The amount actually paid to a worker for a work week will be determined by an inspector assigned to a particuler means of production (this will be abrieviated MOP here). They will inspect (in a manner and oftenness necessary for the particular MOP) the worker's progress throughout the work week, keeping the records of their evaluations. They will determine the amount paid to the worker at the end of the work week.

Now an important question needs to be asked here. Who pays the inspectors, and what keeps them from just paying everyone the max or min?

The inspectors pay is determined by how well the MOP is preforming. This is determined by what kind of MOP it is. For example a Burger King will be judged by how much income they bring in (and other values). If the inspector does not do his job correctly, like just paying everyone 500 all the time or in overly large amounts, the workers human nature will kick in and they wont work as hard. Efficiency will decrease and productivity will drop. The MOP wont do well, and the inspector wont be paid well. So he/she will have to do his/her job right to be paid well.

This goes for all workers in the society. Everyone, managers, government officials, and inspectors alike.

"Where does all that money the Burger King go?" you may ask. In all MOPs that recieve currency from consumers (ones that sell goods or services) goes back to the government. Keep in mind this is not tax. Money under this system is only a way of putting value on the amount of imput a worker has done, unlike a capitalist system, where money flow is the entire basis of the system, which depends on it going from one workers pockets into a capitalist pockets, at a proportion inhumanely unfair. Here, the worker recieves he's 'currency' (if you must, its use is the only thing it has in common with actual currency) and uses it to 'buy' his goods. This is how the "how are resources divided?" question is answered. It is decided by the consumer, like in capitalism, but, as you will soon see, without the strings of exploitation attached.

But who decides whether the MOP is doing well? By an inspector that works for the govenment (regional level, kinda like a county equivilant). His/her pay is determined by how well the MOPs he/she is assigned to is preforming. The government at that level will be paid by how well over all thier area is doing. Which will be determined by the governing body above them. Up until the national government. The national government officials pay will be fixed at 75% of the max, here at 750. Well what makes them do their job right? Democracy. If they do a horrible job, they wont be revoted into office. They have to do their job to be guaranteed such good pay.

Keep in mind, none of this involves the government telling what MOPs produce what, how much, or when to produce. There is no Gosplan equalivilent here. All decisions are made by the MOPs and companies. The people.

So how is the question "what is to be produced?" answered? The pay system. Human nature makes us want to take the path of least resistance. Under this system, no one will be trying to get the job that gives the big bucks. Only one they are good at, because they can do it better, easier. They will choose a job they enjoy. So efficiency is still emphasized by the system. Quality is almost guaranteed.

The government can setup MOPs where needed. They simple send the order to build one down the chain of command and one is setup. No monetary cost. They give the order, and it is followed. The people carrying it out are paid according to how much effort, as explained above. The MOP is built, and workers that apply for the job required are hired.

But the government is not the primary creator of MOPs, unlike under the soviets. Hell they don't even run them when they make them. They just move things along in areas that need pushing, say oil production needs to increase so they setup more refineries.

Who primarily chooses what to produce then? The people. The people control the means of production. John Smith wants to start a factory. He notices that paper is in somewhat short supply. He says "hey this will be easy, cause there needs to be more produced, which means that I should easily sell the paper I produce. I will have good outputs, and I'll be paid well because of how well I do my job!"

So John applies to start a business. He gets a licence. The government then gives him the building, the equipment (ordered from a place that makes it, who builds it to standard because their pay depends on it), and hires (or John hires) the workers, and he produces paper, and sells it.

This is done in a manner not unfamiliar to capitalist means. In the US, to start a business, you need to submit your business idea to the govenment, who issues the license if its sound (obviously minimum effort in their analysis here). But to start one costs money, so you (normally) have to apply for a business loan. Well they want to makes sure they get their money back, so they analyse your business plan to makes sure its sound, and give the loan.

Under my system, you don't need to take a major monetary risk. You just go with it, with no red tape. And since your paid by how well you do it, you do it well to get paid well. This should grant a very large increase in economic efficiency, because the government does not control or the primary creator of MOPs. The people do.

The government provides a minimal standard of living for everyone. Housing, transportation, etc... But the government doesn't meet you needs. It couldn't, such as in the soviet system.

For example the government will provide standardized housing and vehicles, not built for luxury. They will work well for living, but human beings want better if it exists. So they will work and buy ones others produce, giving their government provisions back and replaced by the ones they bought.

My pay system allows you to purchase luxeries from the fruits of your labor. So you will work at a job you do best, to get the hight pay able, to buy the item your human nature says you 'must' have. Note how my sytem takes in account human nature. Note the lack of a huge Gosplan like organization to run things. Note how my system does not allow the existence capitalists, because the entrepreneurs are paid the same, each according to their needs, and are not exploiting the workers, because they are there to do what they can do the easiest to achieve the highest 'pay' to get what they want. And others will makes businesses to produce what people want, so they can get good 'pay'. Everyone is obeying human nature, but without being dependent on exploiting a 'lower class'. They are all on equal footing, just doing different jobs.

The people's wants and needs create a demand, which forces the people respond to create a supply, to satisfy their human nature.

Capitalism requires there being a class that is always on the bottom, with a few on top. My system allows everyone to be on equal footing. Under a capitalist system, to achieve this would require a huge welfare system, which would be paid for by capital (taxes). Human nature, wanting everyone, will cause the haves to try to keep their currency. The have nots will demand the currency. Just as the currency reaches the lower classes, they system responds by putting it back into the haves' pockets. The capitalist system cannot survive with equality. It is dependent on exploitation.

My system allows for everyone to be on equal footing. There are no taxes under my system. My system is not dependent on the flow of capital. Its dependent on human nature. 'Capital' in my system is just a convenient way to represent worker input, and to determine the wants and needs of everyone.

Also prices are extremely low under this system. Since there's max for everyone to be paid at a given week, suppling MOPs can only price things so high. Sure workers can save up for things, but that takes a while, and so super exspensive things will be rare, because little 'profit' will be made, generating poor ratings, resulting in poor 'pay'. Resources will be very cheap, because there's no huge price for equipment to mine it, and workers are not paid in the 100,000's or what not. Nor are they 'paid' but give a different kind of capital. So nothing is out of the governments ability to preform, as long as there's resources to produces it. Laws to enforce enviormentally friendly MOPs will give MOPs poor ratings for not reaching enviormental standards, so promoting major change in that area would be easy. Changing major aspects of the economy will be a simple as passing law, and watching human nature react to find the path of least resistance towards your goals.

Also, there is no debt under this system. Because there is no actual capital, and everything is low priced, loans are not necessary, and wont exist. They exist in the capitalist system because everything is done to continue the flow of capital. Here everything is done on request.

Government will be efficent under democracy, and the economy will work well because only politicians who do things right will stay elected. Freedom of speech in a necessity, as hindering it hinders the ability for workers to gain what they need and express what they need. The government doesn't tell you where to work (unless you request them to give a job) because it hinders the ability for you to do things well, therefore efficiently, not giving the MOP good results.

Human nature does not allow for communism? Bullshit. It drives it.

Sovietcomrade232
18th September 2010, 15:35
Also please explain your vote. I posted it here to get feedback, and I strongly appreciate if you took the time to read and vote for you to explain what you thought. And if it's negative criticism, please post, because that'll be the kind that helps me the most.

28th September 2010, 04:52
I'm not convinced how this can be pulled off. Its interesting though...

Lenina Rosenweg
28th September 2010, 05:45
Interesting.I think its good that socialists think of the nuts and bolts of how a socialist economy would operate. I think the inspector system might become very cumbersome and there is room for corruption, not unlike the Soviet Gosplan. In a socialist economy there would be constant horizontal communication between enterprises, which would consist of any group of people working together.All firms would be run by worker's and consumer's councils.

You are partly on to something .I have the feeling its a bit one dimensional though. A socialist economy would be much more complex than MOPS with accountability enforced by an inspectorate. Your plan would be part of what's needed I think.

Paul Cockshott and others on RevLeft has worked out some ideas of how a socialist economy could work. Your plan is worthy of more in depth critique. I hope more people will post in this thread.

Sovietcomrade232
14th April 2011, 03:26
Interesting.I think its good that socialists think of the nuts and bolts of how a socialist economy would operate. I think the inspector system might become very cumbersome and there is room for corruption, not unlike the Soviet Gosplan. In a socialist economy there would be constant horizontal communication between enterprises, which would consist of any group of people working together.All firms would be run by worker's and consumer's councils.

You are partly on to something .I have the feeling its a bit one dimensional though. A socialist economy would be much more complex than MOPS with accountability enforced by an inspectorate. Your plan would be part of what's needed I think.

Paul Cockshott and others on RevLeft has worked out some ideas of how a socialist economy could work. Your plan is worthy of more in depth critique. I hope more people will post in this thread.

(wow I haven't been hear for ever) thanks for the feedback! For the record I go a lot more in depth then what I have it. I agree there is smoothing out to do, but in regards to the inspectors. Because their job (and payment) is directly related to the how good the worker are doing, he has to do his job. In order of significant corruption to occur, they would need one large group acting together, nonetheless unless it goes straight to the top it'll all be for one person at the bottom. That's hard to pull of when a group of crooks are to benefit one person.

Tommy4ever
16th April 2011, 21:52
Your systems seems just as inefficient and open to corruption as the Soviet system, your ideas of how new investments can be managed sounds like a recipe for disaster, you keep a significant degree of inequality.

Its similar to the Soviet system - just a bit more decentralised and it sounds a bit less efficient and more corrupt.

Sorry for the harsh words. It's good that your thinking about how socialism would work in practise though.

ComradeOm
16th April 2011, 22:52
The amount actually paid to a worker for a work week will be determined by an inspector assigned to a particuler means of production (this will be abrieviated MOP here). They will inspect (in a manner and oftenness necessary for the particular MOP) the worker's progress throughout the work week, keeping the records of their evaluations. They will determine the amount paid to the worker at the end of the work week. I stopped here. Let's leave aside inaccuracies, inconsistencies and issues with bureaucrats, 'human nature' etc, etc. You criticise the Soviet system for being inefficient and then propose an army of bureaucrats to evaluate the performance of every individual worker on a weekly basis?

Sovietcomrade232
18th April 2011, 01:35
I stopped here. Let's leave aside inaccuracies, inconsistencies and issues with bureaucrats, 'human nature' etc, etc. You criticise the Soviet system for being inefficient and then propose an army of bureaucrats to evaluate the performance of every individual worker on a weekly basis?

No, I propose another job in a particular MOP. It's similar to to quality inspectors in factories (I'm one). They not only look at the parts that are made, but how the person/s are making them. My system just has there evaluations counts towards a payment on efficiency rather then an hourly wage. Also "an army of bureaucrats" aren't necessary. One inspector can cover multiple people. Certain jobs can just have the manager do it rather then a particular dedicated worker.

The Soviet Union had one large bureaucracy that government every single MOP in the whole nation. Not only were they no actually there to make day by day decisions, they also chose what the public needed. This makes the people responsible for the distribution of wealth.


Your systems seems just as inefficient and open to corruption as the Soviet system, your ideas of how new investments can be managed sounds like a recipe for disaster, you keep a significant degree of inequality.

Its similar to the Soviet system - just a bit more decentralised and it sounds a bit less efficient and more corrupt.

Sorry for the harsh words. It's good that your thinking about how socialism would work in practise though.

I don't mind the harsh words as long as there is point behind them. I don't understand how my system is more inefficient though. As stated above the soviet union had one massive bureaucracy. I put the decision in the people actually doing the job. Similar to capitalism but without the inequality. The point in this system is to do you job as well as you can. Unlike like in capitalism where it's all about how you can exploit the workers as best as possible for the greatest wealth. There's no need for health insurance for example. You don't pay doctors for medical treatment. Nor does the state. They just do their job as best as possible. Yes there is hierarchy, but people are only separated by their interests and their ability, not by who's more privileged then the next guy.

Tommy4ever
18th April 2011, 16:29
Your main criticism of the Soviet system is the army of bureacrats and the corruption it seems.

Your system would require an even bigger army of bureacrats and is much, much more open to corruption. I think corruption would probably be the main problem with this system.

Hope that clears up my statements.

Sovietcomrade232
18th April 2011, 21:07
Your main criticism of the Soviet system is the army of bureacrats and the corruption it seems.

Your system would require an even bigger army of bureacrats and is much, much more open to corruption. I think corruption would probably be the main problem with this system.

Hope that clears up my statements.

Apologies, but what I was asking you to do was go into further detail what you meant, not just reword it. Basically I was asking for the 'why' to your statement.

What I mostly don't understand is where you get this "army of bureaucrats" from. These guys would act only within the MOP they worked. They report to just the management in the MOP. The only thing outside the MOP that has any effect on it would be the small amount of people that rate how the MOP was performing. One person there can rate at least 20 to 30 MOP (I got to find a better acronym the whole 'MOP' thing is getting annoying). And that small organisation would only exist on the town level. From the county level and up, all they rate is how the workers that rate the MOPs are doing. So the largest group of raters is those in the MOPs if you include all of them. But only a handful are necessary for the functioning of any one MOP. They only act/report/fuction within the bounds of that MOP. They don't report to some bureau above them. Just the management of that MOP.

Let's assume there are 100 MOPs in one township. 1 to 2 people can rate that in week, because their rating would depend solely on the stats that all MOPs record to some degree. ie how many parts where shiped? How many defects? etc etc.

True, if you include every single step of management, you can get and 'army' of bureaucrats. But unlike the Soviet one, where they all are part of one agency NOT ONLY rating by also RUNNING each MOP, my all belong to each MOP. Close to 99% of the inspectors would be on the MOP level, completely independent of all other MOPs, and independent of the government short of the government determining their pay based on the performance of the MOP. They no communication between the inspectors on the two levels. Just the data from the results of the MOP.

cb9's_unity
18th April 2011, 22:24
My question to this is more humanistic than economistic. How does this advance man in his goal to become one with his creative labor? Today man is alienated from his labor because he his selling it in its totality for a paycheck. I don't how its that much better to have man working to impress the whims of some bureaucrat.

Early socialist society is going to have to bare some of the marks of the capitalist society it emerged from. But your system sounds like it may be a bit too close to capitalism. We have to create a system that works in terms of production (as yours is most concerned with), but we also have to have one that is concerned with liberating man from oppression from other man.

To have a workable post-capitalist system we will still initially need to pay people for the labor time they put in. The only variation in pay may have to come through what profession one chooses. If society really needs more people in one profession, then it may make sense for their to be more incentives. But that is more about practically keeping things running and last resorts.

I do applaud you for putting in the work to envision a working socialist system. Your going in the right direction in trying to find a good balance between centralization and decentralization.

Dumb
19th April 2011, 00:00
I'm probably piling on at this point without adding anything special, but this proposed inspectorate strikes me as a combination of the nomenklatura and the KGB. Do you have any mechanism in mind to keep the inspectors from becoming the new elite within this society? How do we avoid rule by inspector? (Echoes of Bentham...?)

Sovietcomrade232
20th April 2011, 02:12
My question to this is more humanistic than economistic. How does this advance man in his goal to become one with his creative labor? Today man is alienated from his labor because he his selling it in its totality for a paycheck. I don't how its that much better to have man working to impress the whims of some bureaucrat.

Early socialist society is going to have to bare some of the marks of the capitalist society it emerged from. But your system sounds like it may be a bit too close to capitalism. We have to create a system that works in terms of production (as yours is most concerned with), but we also have to have one that is concerned with liberating man from oppression from other man.

To have a workable post-capitalist system we will still initially need to pay people for the labor time they put in. The only variation in pay may have to come through what profession one chooses. If society really needs more people in one profession, then it may make sense for their to be more incentives. But that is more about practically keeping things running and last resorts.

I do applaud you for putting in the work to envision a working socialist system. Your going in the right direction in trying to find a good balance between centralization and decentralization.

It helps move things along because:

1.) it removes the foundation of capitalism 'wealth' making any work done pearly for how good you can do it. Positions of authority are no longer about exploiting workers. There's about how well you properly manage your work place. This breeds a culture based on producing for quality for everyone else, not for profit.
2.)it removes the inequality of authority and workers, because know authority is just a job like any other, not privilege position.

This gets things started. Keep in mind, this 'inspectors' aren't bureaucrats. They don't work for the government or some agency. They work for the MOP. The local government just pays them based on the over all efficiency of the MOP.


I'm probably piling on at this point without adding anything special, but this proposed inspectorate strikes me as a combination of the nomenklatura and the KGB. Do you have any mechanism in mind to keep the inspectors from becoming the new elite within this society? How do we avoid rule by inspector? (Echoes of Bentham...?)

See, this is mostly my fault for not wording things properly. Everyone seems to get the idea that the inspectors are some kind of bureaucrat. They are not. They are just like the quality control in a factory. The Quality Inspector (i'm one at a factory btw) checks the parts for quality and makes sure the part makers are following protocol. The inspectors do not have authority over the workers. They just observe. Ideally they would have experience at whatever job the are inspecting for, so they would know it works. They are simply staff. The have no means of exploiting the system. If they don't do the job right, their section of the MOP performs less then average and they get paid less. The government that decides their pay has no direct contact with the inspector. The government would be monitoring several hundred inspectors in a local area. You could think of the ratio in most cases would be around 1 inspector for every 15-20 workers. They don't need to be breathing down your neck to see how well you are preforming.

bcbm
20th April 2011, 06:10
so under your system business will still exist, paid labor will still exist and be entirely dependent on "efficiency," you'll still have to be hired by some asshole, you'll be stuck in one job (that you "really like") and the state will control everything? i don't think this has anything to do with communism


There are no taxes under my system. My system is not dependent on the flow of capital.


"Where does all that money the Burger King go?" you may ask. In all MOPs that recieve currency from consumers (ones that sell goods or services) goes back to the government.

a Burger King will be judged by how much income they bring in

StalinFanboy
20th April 2011, 06:17
Yeah this just sounds like a more annoying form of capitalism.

Sovietcomrade232
20th April 2011, 22:06
so under your system business will still exist, paid labor will still exist and be entirely dependent on "efficiency," you'll still have to be hired by some asshole, you'll be stuck in one job (that you "really like") and the state will control everything? i don't think this has anything to do with communism


Yeah this just sounds like a more annoying form of capitalism.

"Paid labor" does not have to same meaning in my system. It just keeps the convenience of cash, without the actually value the capitalist system plays on it. Keep in mind, this is socialism. It's a stepping stone towards communism, intended to remove the inequalities of the capitalist system so culture can develop to a non exploitive standard. And you wouldn't be stuck in one job. You can move around as much as you want. You'd just prefer one you're good at as its easier to get paid more, as apposed to just getting a job the pays well.

And as said before, this isn't paid labor. There is no flow in capital. The part where I describe the government taking the money, it just because there's no point in the business having it. The government doesn't have a point to have it either, other then to recycle it for next weeks pay checks. And the government doesn't own anything either. They don't run anything or influence any business aside from regulating basic things like efficiency.

And the "asshole" that hires you, is also on your level. He's not a capitalist. He a worker. He just manages people, because that's what he's good at. There's no "perks" to leadership, shot of someone enjoying it. But at the end of the day they don't go home with some ridiculously large paycheck because he happens to be leader. He also can't treat you ridiculously. It reflects poorly on the over health of the business, and lowers his check. He has to do it right, or he gets paid poorly. Capitalism has no incentives to treat its workers wealth. It requires the government to make them do it. This system can't work without the business respecting the workers.

Lenina Rosenweg
20th April 2011, 22:45
The Soviet command economy had problems because, in a highly condensed nutshell, it wasn't democratic. Lacking democratic economic desicion making by workers themselves decisions had to be made by bureaucratic fiat, by Gosplan. This was highly cumbersome. The Soviet economy wasn't socialist or capitalist, it remained an economy in transition. Workers made commodities for wages but there was no market mechanism. In some ways it was the worst of both worlds. In the late 30s Stalin had to reintroduce capitalist accounting methods as a sort of "mini-NEP".

I understand you are discussing a transistional post-capitalist period. Cash is used as an accounting mechanism, it isn't capital. That makes sense.

I could see the need for some inspectorate but I think the most important thing would be democratic decision making between firms. All the "stakeholders" of a firm-the employees, customers, suppliers, and communities affected, would be able to discuss and decide what directions to go in, what and how much to produce and decide in conjunction with the "customers" how to socially allocate what is produced. The profit motive wouldn't exist and goods and services would be produced on the basis of use value.There might be some competition utilized, but it wouldn't be on the basis of higher profit or keeping one's shareholders happy.It might be based on how many people could be helped or be made happier in some way.

Also-what criteria would the inspectors base their work on? In a McDonald's employees are judged on how efficiently and rapidly they can put a burger together, how polite they are to customers, how rapidly someone can "progress" from station to station (I've worked in these places). Under socialism the criteria would be different and might include intrinsic job satisfaction. Under capitalism people are only as good as the commodities they can produce.

I think you are on to something though

Sovietcomrade232
22nd April 2011, 03:40
The Soviet command economy had problems because, in a highly condensed nutshell, it wasn't democratic. Lacking democratic economic desicion making by workers themselves decisions had to be made by bureaucratic fiat, by Gosplan. This was highly cumbersome. The Soviet economy wasn't socialist or capitalist, it remained an economy in transition. Workers made commodities for wages but there was no market mechanism. In some ways it was the worst of both worlds. In the late 30s Stalin had to reintroduce capitalist accounting methods as a sort of "mini-NEP".

I understand you are discussing a transistional post-capitalist period. Cash is used as an accounting mechanism, it isn't capital. That makes sense.

I could see the need for some inspectorate but I think the most important thing would be democratic decision making between firms. All the "stakeholders" of a firm-the employees, customers, suppliers, and communities affected, would be able to discuss and decide what directions to go in, what and how much to produce and decide in conjunction with the "customers" how to socially allocate what is produced. The profit motive wouldn't exist and goods and services would be produced on the basis of use value.There might be some competition utilized, but it wouldn't be on the basis of higher profit or keeping one's shareholders happy.It might be based on how many people could be helped or be made happier in some way.

Also-what criteria would the inspectors base their work on? In a McDonald's employees are judged on how efficiently and rapidly they can put a burger together, how polite they are to customers, how rapidly someone can "progress" from station to station (I've worked in these places). Under socialism the criteria would be different and might include intrinsic job satisfaction. Under capitalism people are only as good as the commodities they can produce.

I think you are on to something though

Appreciate the compliment. The problem I have with the democracy in the MOPs is that it politicizes productions. Capitalism has an effective means of determining demand, and that is the amount that is being sold, represented in the price system. I seek to preserve this aspect, because it removes the need for politics or bureaus to regulate things. Democracy is good in america, but as you can see from how it works, it's a very very VERY messy business.

The criteria would be based upon whatever maximized quality and the efforts of the workers, while simultaneously makes the workers not worked to death. For McDonald's workers (I've been one too btw lol), it would be based on things like how well they did their tasks, how often they goofed off, how much they wasted from mistakes that could be avoided. Things like that. How much each detail would be important depends on what the MOP tries to emphasize (quantity, quality, resource use). Basically the MOPs would have the choice on how exactly the workers would be rated. The government would only influence this by say, rating the managers on certain criteria. So the nation as a whole wanted to improve pollution levels, so they MOPs criteria would include pollution rated traits. The managers then may or many not modify their criteria to reflect this need.

bcbm
22nd April 2011, 03:56
i don't see what this has to do with even "socialism" since you seem to imagine things like mcdonalds and burger king will still exist and people will want to work there and be judged on "how well they did their tasks, how often they goofed off, how much they wasted from mistakes that could be avoided" which doesn't strike me as much different from now. and they will even still have a manager who will "just be another job" but still (from the way you describe it) have a great deal of power in the workplace and over other employees... which is the exact opposite of being another worker. the whole concept is also tied into maximizing production and efficiency which i don't think has anything to do with the communist project.

Sovietcomrade232
22nd April 2011, 21:37
i don't see what this has to do with even "socialism" since you seem to imagine things like mcdonalds and burger king will still exist and people will want to work there and be judged on "how well they did their tasks, how often they goofed off, how much they wasted from mistakes that could be avoided" which doesn't strike me as much different from now. and they will even still have a manager who will "just be another job" but still (from the way you describe it) have a great deal of power in the workplace and over other employees... which is the exact opposite of being another worker. the whole concept is also tied into maximizing production and efficiency which i don't think has anything to do with the communist project.

What this system is meant to do is remove the primary basis of capitalism: profit by exploitation.

Yes, managers have power, but at the same time their power is only useful getting the MOP working, and helping the workers, as the previous system (capitalism) made the point personal gain on disproportionate levels. Also keep in mind, having power over people doesn't necessarily mean that he's set apart. It only means that he provides order to the workplace. In capitalism however, the government has to make the capitalists be respectful to the workers, because under capitalism there no profit in respecting them short of keeping them alive. Under this system, the manager job include taking care of the workers. Its built into the system.

Point blank, by removing excessive profit and adding gain for workers respect, authority positions are on the same level as workers. Everything that set them apart in terms of inequality has been removed.

This system is a stepping stone towards communism. By providing a system that removes inequality, it provides room for the culture of the people adapt to new principles the help propel the civilization towards communism.

bcbm
24th April 2011, 02:54
ok well i don't really feel like arguing the specifics i don't think a "socialist" stage is necessary at all let alone like the one you describe so w/e

Sovietcomrade232
24th April 2011, 18:09
ok well i don't really feel like arguing the specifics i don't think a "socialist" stage is necessary at all let alone like the one you describe so w/e

Well thanks for the feed back at least. I personally believe there needs to be an intermediate stage to remove the capitalist ideology built into today's culture before communism can be achieved.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
26th April 2011, 01:30
The GOSPLAN problem had its roots in central planning, which in itself had its roots in the inherent, powerful bureaucratic class that effectively ruled the USSR.

Your solution is to have each and every single worker monitored on a regular basis and assigned a particular wage for that period of work. Why is that necessary if power is held by the working class?

The scale it would take to have each worker monitored (big brother style, much, btw?) would require a new bureaucracy being constructed and embedded in society. It is likely that you would, naively, be repeating the mistakes of the USSR. The inspector's interests would become divorced from the interests of the workers he/she is inspecting, and that would lead to Capitalist economic relations rather quickly.

In any case, your system has no clear path towards communism. It is State Socialism.

What we need, comrade, is a genuinely revolutionary, transitory programme, that can show a real and clear progression towards communism, via the gradual introduction (after the revolution and the implementation of a minimum programme) of labour credits and non-monetary production function, wage and exchange methods.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
26th April 2011, 01:33
Also, for where is this system of yours intended?

Sorry to be a bit of a moaner, but it really fucking annoys me when people proscribe their own dreamed up 'leftist' solutions to the worlds problems in a completely arbitrary manner, without thinking about where, geographically, this might be applied, in what context and by whom.

One size does not fit all, where politics is concerned, clearly.

Sovietcomrade232
27th April 2011, 03:16
The GOSPLAN problem had its roots in central planning, which in itself had its roots in the inherent, powerful bureaucratic class that effectively ruled the USSR.

Your solution is to have each and every single worker monitored on a regular basis and assigned a particular wage for that period of work. Why is that necessary if power is held by the working class?

The scale it would take to have each worker monitored (big brother style, much, btw?) would require a new bureaucracy being constructed and embedded in society. It is likely that you would, naively, be repeating the mistakes of the USSR. The inspector's interests would become divorced from the interests of the workers he/she is inspecting, and that would lead to Capitalist economic relations rather quickly.

In any case, your system has no clear path towards communism. It is State Socialism.

What we need, comrade, is a genuinely revolutionary, transitory programme, that can show a real and clear progression towards communism, via the gradual introduction (after the revolution and the implementation of a minimum programme) of labour credits and non-monetary production function, wage and exchange methods.

Keep in mind, this inspection system is nothing new. I am a quality inspector at my factory. The only difference my system gives it that the pay is determined by the QI. The QI's pay is determined by the manager of the division in the factoy or the head manager. The chain stops there. The government independently monitors the business's progress/failings. They then determine the pay of the manager. The inspector could not and nearly can not become disconnected from the worker. His very livelihood depends on he doing is job right. If he doesn't, the workers naturally would do poorer. He has a vested interest in making sure they are doing it right. Other wise his pays is significantly lowered. No massive bureaucracy is need for this system. Keep in mind, this system is meant purely to removing the main basis of capitalism; inequality and capital, from the system. This will allow culture to develop way from the class style norms our cultures have developed from thousands of years of class struggle.


Also, for where is this system of yours intended?

Sorry to be a bit of a moaner, but it really fucking annoys me when people proscribe their own dreamed up 'leftist' solutions to the worlds problems in a completely arbitrary manner, without thinking about where, geographically, this might be applied, in what context and by whom.

One size does not fit all, where politics is concerned, clearly.

This system is ambiguous. It's the bare minimum. It's meant to be adapted as necessary to fit the time and place in question.

Dumb
27th April 2011, 03:18
Why have pay?

Vladimir Innit Lenin
27th April 2011, 09:42
So you've already got several levels of management.

Undoubtedly, on a national scale you'll have managers and junior bureaucrats processing such a mountain of inevitable paperwork.

Tbh, it's not that it's an awful system as such, but I just don't see its revolutionary potential. What in this would stir revolutionary political consciousness in workers? If anything, being checked on all the time would probably breed a feeling of resentment and hopelessness.

The key transitional demand is worker self-management of the workplace, of anywhere larger than say 10 or 20 workers, it must be legislated that workers have the absolute right to take over their workplace and run it democratically.

Sovietcomrade232
28th April 2011, 01:26
Why have pay?

It just for convenience. It's not real money in the sense of capitalism.


So you've already got several levels of management.

Undoubtedly, on a national scale you'll have managers and junior bureaucrats processing such a mountain of inevitable paperwork.

Tbh, it's not that it's an awful system as such, but I just don't see its revolutionary potential. What in this would stir revolutionary political consciousness in workers? If anything, being checked on all the time would probably breed a feeling of resentment and hopelessness.

The key transitional demand is worker self-management of the workplace, of anywhere larger than say 10 or 20 workers, it must be legislated that workers have the absolute right to take over their workplace and run it democratically.

No, I have one level of management, the rest is just observatory. Paperwork is small scale. The Soviet Bureaucracy processed EVERYTHING. Resources, amount of production, where production was sent, etc etc. My system puts all of that in the hands of who needs it. The Management of the MOP. The government just determines the pay of the leaders of the MOP. This grants power over the managers. In a democracy this gives power to the workers. And it puts it at the local level too, not the national. So the workers have direct access.

What this system is meant to do is remove the basis of the class conflict: inequality and profit. This free up society to develop a new culture frame work in which to view ourselves. This middle step preforms only this. Society itself develops towards communism. When class conflict is removed, humanity is freed from the binds that resist the change. Point blank, the only artificial step is this system. Everything else is natural, although begins at a much later, more direct step.

Anarchia
28th April 2011, 10:52
This is one of the most unappealing systems I have ever seen. Seriously. One of the reasons I am an (anarchist-)communist is because I think a communist society is actually desirable - this, on the other hand, is barely more appealing than a primitivist dystopia.

Sovietcomrade232
30th April 2011, 04:05
This is one of the most unappealing systems I have ever seen. Seriously. One of the reasons I am an (anarchist-)communist is because I think a communist society is actually desirable - this, on the other hand, is barely more appealing than a primitivist dystopia.

Well I'm not really all that surprised given your an anarcho-communist. Of course you wouldn't like it lol. Communism itself must be developed naturally. All my system does is remove the primary factors that slow down the process considerably.

Optiow
30th April 2011, 05:07
I think there is too much red tape and bureaucracy here. The government departments for MOP would have to be huge to be able to evaluate every worker in the country every week.

I do not like the idea of the whole wage system. It will breed inequality as workers who are less skilled are stuck on minimum wages, and workers who are very skilled will be able to get the maximum.

I do not see it as a stepping stone towards communism at all. There is so much capitalism still present that I would never vote such a government into power. I sense that will will just annoy the reactionaries, who are not happy with the change; as well as agitating the revolutionary socialists, who will want more change. And it will alienate the whole population int he end, because no one wants MOP's coming around every week poking into your records to determine your wages.

Sovietcomrade232
1st May 2011, 21:42
I think there is too much red tape and bureaucracy here. The government departments for MOP would have to be huge to be able to evaluate every worker in the country every week.

The government doesn't evaluate every worker. The inspectors for the MOP does. The government only evaluates the manager for the MOP and possibly the inspectors themselves, based on the MOP as a whole. The government bureaucracy and can handle hundreds of MOPs we just a few people. The inspectors do the regular workers. In a since this all ready exists with the quality control and oversight in today's MOPs, only that they don't base you're wages on it. This just gives them an extra task.


I do not like the idea of the whole wage system. It will breed inequality as workers who are less skilled are stuck on minimum wages, and workers who are very skilled will be able to get the maximum.

The workers would only be in jobs they are good at, because they want to maximize their income. That inequality would only appear if the workers themselves didn't care enough to find a job their good at. Some people maybe better then others at a particular task. That can't be helped. But everyone is good at something. In that sense we are all equal.


I do not see it as a stepping stone towards communism at all. There is so much capitalism still present that I would never vote such a government into power. I sense that will will just annoy the reactionaries, who are not happy with the change; as well as agitating the revolutionary socialists, who will want more change. And it will alienate the whole population int he end, because no one wants MOP's coming around every week poking into your records to determine your wages.

This 'government' is just a regular democracy. You don't need to replace the governments we already have (assuming you already live in a democracy). The capitalism doesn't even exist here, as profits do not exist. Sure there's feedback from effort, but not gain. There's no money flow here. Capitalism IS money flow, and the accumulation of it. That does not exist here. This frees up the society to begin developing towards communism, as the system no longer endorses inequality.

Dahut
1st May 2011, 22:09
Problem with corruption. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will guard the guardians?

Brosa Luxemburg
22nd August 2012, 20:42
To be honest, I just skimmed it but it seems that in your "communism" the state, the law of value, money, the market, etc. all still exist. This isn't communism, because communism rejects all these things.