Vietnam: Revolution betrayed?

[RadioRaheem84]

Market Socialism or Market over Socialism?

Has the mixed economy of Vietnam proved to be a road to inequality and new forms of repression?

Anyone doubting this needs to watch John Pilger's interview with Senior Economic Advisor to the Government of Vietnam in his 1995 doc Vietnam: The Last Battle.

Pilger tests him by asking if Market Socialism is a contradiction. He replies it is not and assures him that Vietnam has the best of both worlds, yet when Pilger tell him of an American investor who remarked that in ten years this will not even be a socialist country anymore, the Economic Advisor said "Lets hope so" !

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7766500001351485903#

Skip to minute 18:40 sec.

Pilger offers a glimpse of a highly revised Vietnam that is being reconquered by Western imperialism via finance.

Now with the new arms deals with the US and strategic planning going on, where is Vietnam going?

[fa2991]

Now with the new arms deals with the US and strategic planning going on, where is Vietnam going?

It's already there: capitalism under a red flag.

Thanks for the video link.

[Nolan]

Well gee, ya think?

[The Vegan Marxist]

It's already there: capitalism under a red flag.

Thanks for the video link.

Care to prove how Vietnam isn't socialist? You mind pointing out where the vast majority of the country's economy is not run by collective farms between workers & State, & is rather developed under private enterprises, whereas the means of production is privately owned? Please point this out to me, because I'm positive you won't. Again, I'm inclined to point out the tendency of most people to use the term "capitalism" by no other means than of a cuss word.

[Nolan]

Care to prove how Vietnam isn't socialist? You mind pointing out where the vast majority of the country's economy is not run by collective farms between workers & State, & is rather developed under private enterprises, whereas the means of production is privately owned? Please point this out to me, because I'm positive you won't. Again, I'm inclined to point out the tendency of most people to use the term "capitalism" by no other means than of a cuss word.

You are insane.

[fa2991]

Care to prove how Vietnam isn't socialist? You mind pointing out where the vast majority of the country's economy is not run by collective farms between workers & State, & is rather developed under private enterprises, whereas the means of production is privately owned? Please point this out to me, because I'm positive you won't.

You're damn right I won't. :lol:

[The Vegan Marxist]

You are insane.

That doesn't prove whether I'm right or wrong. You disregarding it & rather calling me insane shows all that I need to know about you. What happened to the old you? Now all I see is some sell-out going against Cuba with bullshit claims that it's not Socialist. So please excuse me if I don't believe you when you say Vietnam's not Socialist.

[Nolan]

Care to prove how Vietnam isn't socialist? You mind pointing out where the vast majority of the country's economy is not run by collective farms between workers & State, & is rather developed under private enterprises, whereas the means of production is privately owned? Please point this out to me, because I'm positive you won't. Again, I'm inclined to point out the tendency of most people to use the term "capitalism" by no other means than of a cuss word.

You're the one who is claiming Vietnam is socialist despite it being a major source of cheap labor for multinationals, so the burden of proof is on you to prove how the working class holds political power in any way in Vietnam.

[fa2991]

You're the one who is claiming Vietnam is socialist despite it being a major source of cheap labor for multinationals, so the burden of proof is on you to prove how the working class holds political power in any way in Vietnam.

No it isn't, because if the government owns a lot of property, it must be socialist. Right, Vegan Marxist?

[Nolan]

That doesn't prove whether I'm right or wrong. You disregarding it & rather calling me insane shows all that I need to know about you. What happened to the old you? Now all I see is some sell-out going against Cuba with bullshit claims that it's not Socialist. So please excuse me if I don't believe you when you say Vietnam's not Socialist.


That's right, China is socialist as well and the Cold War is still going on. We might as well throw Russia in there, and while we're at it, Sweden.

[The Vegan Marxist]

No it isn't, because if the government owns a lot of property, it must be socialist. Right, Vegan Marxist?

Wrong. Again, how about actually looking through statistical records of Vietnam, how the state-owned economy operates, what's the dominant enterprise, where workers stand on management, etc. Not some article that clearly opposes Vietnam.

[The Vegan Marxist]

That's right, China is socialist as well and the Cold War is still going on. We might as well throw Russia in there, and while we're at it, Sweden.

Haha, that's right, throw in Sweden, despite the fact that the vast majority of its means of production is still privately owned. You've become nothing but a troll "Captain Cuba". It's obvious you're going to remain one sided on this issue.

[fa2991]

Wrong. Again, how about actually looking through statistical records of Vietnam, how the state-owned economy operates, what's the dominant enterprise, where workers stand on management, etc. Not some article that clearly opposes Vietnam.

Wanna be the better man and put a source behind your claims?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Wanna be the better man and put a source behind your claims?

Sure. Let me gather up all the sources needed & I'll send them your way. Fair enough?

[fa2991]

Fair enough.

[Nolan]

Haha, that's right, throw in Sweden, despite the fact that the vast majority of its means of production is still privately owned. You've become nothing but a troll "Captain Cuba". It's obvious you're going to remain one sided on this issue.

Oh ok then, so if Sweden nationalized everything (or at least the "vast majority" of the means of production) it would be socialist? Where do we draw the line mr. social democracy?

What's this obsession with my former moniker?

[RadioRaheem84]

Can we get some facts in here plz? Enough of the sarcastic back and forth.

Vegan, can you please post some stats or facts that show how Vietnam is still socialist?

[Nolan]

Can we get some facts in here plz? Enough of the sarcastic back and forth.

Vegan, can you please post some stats or facts that show how Vietnam is still socialist?

What more do you need? Vietnam is very integrated into the global capitalist economy. There is no dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Barry Lyndon]

Vietnam is in the hands of traitors in business suits who dare to call themselves communists. They got rid of health care, education, and housing for all, run multinational sweat shops, and even conduct joint military exercises with the US imperialists. They are a comprador capitalist state with a red flag.

One of the only traces of its honorable revolutionary past is 100-year old General Giap, who is still alive and is using all of his remaining strength to undermine and embarrass the current leadership:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KF02Ae01.html

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

I don't think Vietnam has even claimed to have expropriated the bourgeoisie.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Can we get some facts in here plz? Enough of the sarcastic back and forth.

Vegan, can you please post some stats or facts that show how Vietnam is still socialist?

Tired as fuck right now, but here's the page showing all statistical records throughout Vietnam, so you all can gander about it if you will: http://www.gso.gov.vn/default_en.aspx?tabid=491

Also, I found this article to be a bit helpful as well: http://www.cpv.org.vn/cpv/Modules/News_English/News_Detail_E.aspx?CN_ID=387412&CO_ID=30180#9rkTTBa7Tlfe

Now, if you'd like, for all those who have facebook, add this one guy & ask him whatever you like. He's a professor of economics, & should help you understand Vietnam a bit better: http://www.facebook.com/professormasao

UPDATE: Apparently another felt I should include these as well, so take these facts how you want it (though, these are merely political outlines, rather than economical):

1. They're very close to the Cubans.

2. They participate in the International Communist Seminar about every other year.

3. They've kept up a highly consistent anti-imperialist policy.

4. The Cubans consider them socialist beyond a doubt.

5. A few years ago, they had some trouble concerning ethnic unrest among the hill tribes. The problem was determined to result from incorrect party policies, & the general secretary/premier was deposed in favor of a new fellow who is actually a member of a hill tribe.

[Nuvem]

As much as I support Cuba, they are very wrong in this matter. Vietnam has abandoned a proper Socialist road and has entirely ceded itself to Imperialist agenda. Have you been in a sporting goods or clothing store recently? The industrial power of Vietnam is not being used to further Socialist goals. It's being used for sweatshops and its products are being exported to the United States. They're also infamous for the use of child labor- that's not very Socialist, is it?

Ho Chi Minh is one of my personal heroes. The heroic struggle of the Vietnamese people for independence that lasted for over 30 years is inspiring to me and I wish with every bit of my willpower that Vietnam had stayed on its Communist course, but it didn't.


And yet, Nike has not done an especially good job of scrutinizing the subcontractors with which it's working. Nor has it been open about its labor practices in the way public companies should be expected to be. Cameramen have been pushed out of factory floors. Supervisors at a plant in Vietnam apparently beat workers being paid 20 cents an hour and refused to allow them to leave their work posts.

http://www.vietnewsonline.vn/News/Features/9010/Growing-pain-of-child-labor-in-Vietnam.htm

Child labor was/is rampant in Vietnam, but it has been lowering recently. This is attributed by most to, get this, economic globalization. Yes. The child labor rate in Vietnam is being lowered not because of the progress of Vietnam towards Socialism but Imperialist investment in Vietnam.
http://www.nber.org/digest/jul02/w8760.html

Let's assume that someone has something to gain from either of these things being true. Assuming child labor is not a serious problem, it does not change that Vietnam has ceded to US economic interests and in fact many of their people now work in Nike, clothing and sports factories. Assuming that there is no globalization in Vietnam (which is irrefutable at this point, spend 5 minutes at Target), that leaves the issue of child labor. No matter what the case, the government of Vietnam has lost its path. To say that Vietnam today is ruled by Communists is akin to saying that modern Dengist China is ruled by Communists.

[AK]

UPDATE: Apparently another felt I should include these as well, so take these facts how you want it (though, these are merely political outlines, rather than economical):

1. They're very close to the Cubans.
Political alliances don't make any country socialist. If anything, an alliance between two ruling classes (that obviously aren't the working class) is just a display of opportunism.


2. They participate in the International Communist Seminar about every other year.
That doesn't prove anything about the economic character of Vietnam whatsoever.

Since 1992, the International Communist Seminar (ICS), organised every year in Brussels (Belgium), gathers parties and organizations which defend marxism-leninism and proletarian internationalism, and which oppose revisionism.
If Vietnam opposes revisionism so much, why have they allowed foreign capitalists to exploit Vietnamese workers?


3. They've kept up a highly consistent anti-imperialist policy.
So do most small countries around the world - simply because their imperialist ambitions are never able to materialise.


4. The Cubans consider them socialist beyond a doubt.
If Castro says it, it's gotta be true!


5. A few years ago, they had some trouble concerning ethnic unrest among the hill tribes. The problem was determined to result from incorrect party policies, & the general secretary/premier was deposed in favor of a new fellow who is actually a member of a hill tribe.
How is this related to socialism at all? All I see is a new member of the ruling class - albeit, an indigenous one. Where's the social equality? Fucking nowhere.

TVM, some of your posts are goddam ridiculous and they make me question your sanity.

[anticap]

Pilger tests him by asking if Market Socialism is a contradiction.

It's an oxymoron. The market implies conditions that do not exist in socialism.

[RED DAVE]

Care to prove how Vietnam isn't socialist? You mind pointing out where the vast majority of the country's economy is not run by collective farms between workers & State, & is rather developed under private enterprises, whereas the means of production is privately owned? Please point this out to me, because I'm positive you won't. Again, I'm inclined to point out the tendency of most people to use the term "capitalism" by no other means than of a cuss word.In Ho Chi Minh City, in 1990, the proportion of workers in private industry was already about 50% in selected districts. Does anyone think it has declined there since or declined in the rest of the country.

www.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/seas/31/3/310305.pdf

Vietnam, as in China and the USSR: state capitalism leading to private capitalism.

RED DAVE

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Haha, that's right, throw in Sweden, despite the fact that the vast majority of its means of production is still privately owned. You've become nothing but a troll "Captain Cuba". It's obvious you're going to remain one sided on this issue.


Isn't the economy owned and controlled by the buracracy and not by the people? as long as you have a layer above the people, a layer that is living off of the people, and living better than the people, how can you call this socialist?

How can a true workers government allow foreign investers to come in and exploit it's people?

we have government clinics, public schools, social security, unemployment insurance, workers comp, disability etc, but I wouldn't say we have true socialism.

[The Vegan Marxist]

TVM, some of your posts are goddam ridiculous and they make me question your sanity.

Did I not make the statement to take these facts as whatever they wanted & that it didn't show anything of its economical character, rather its political character? Shows how you completely disregarded such in order to throw whatever dirt on me.

[RadioRaheem84]

But Vegan we're talking about the economic character of Vietnam and the state of the working class.

[hardlinecommunist]

Care to prove how Vietnam isn't socialist? You mind pointing out where the vast majority of the country's economy is not run by collective farms between workers & State, & is rather developed under private enterprises, whereas the means of production is privately owned? Please point this out to me, because I'm positive you won't. Again, I'm inclined to point out the tendency of most people to use the term "capitalism" by no other means than of a cuss word. Vietnam is one of the last true Socialist Countries on earth.

[Nolan]

Vietnam is leading the global working class to glorious communism in the tradition of Deng Xiaoping thought. Duh

[RadioRaheem84]

Vietnam is one of the last true Socialist Countries on earth.

I still do not understand how though. Politically it can be anti-imperialist all it wants. Have not American and Western firms entered to exploit the workers and create a bourgeois class? The State may monitor them or control them under some aspects to balance their political power but most American investors see Vietnam as a great market.

How do you think of it as socialist, when this is so?

[Nolan]

How do you think of it as socialist, when this is so?


If you imagine hard enough...

[RadioRaheem84]

I mean I am sure the State has about as much control over the economy as Sweden.

[anticap]

Ho Chi Minh City looks to be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXLXW5SwP-A) as capitalist as NYC (granted, Al Jazeera tried hard to portray that image, but they had no trouble doing it).

[Crux]

Vietnam is leading the global working class to glorious communism in the tradition of Deng Xiaoping thought. Duh
It's Hu-Jintao-Thought now, you dogmatist secterian. In case anyone has forgotten The Vegan Marxists expressed support of Hu Jintao and what TVH calls the "left of CCP". It's no wonder he would support the Vietnamese regime.

[RadioRaheem84]

Tvh?

[Crux]

Tvh?
TVM, simple typo. Or it could be The Vegan Hu-Jintaoist, if you'd like. Actually it's more clever that way.

[RadioRaheem84]

Hu Jintao is about as left as a US Democrat. The man is a darling of the West and has displaced millions of rural Chinese to make way for developers.

The man is no socialist. He is Keynesian at best.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

According to statistics from laborstat (http://laborsta.ilo.org/) the Vietnamese state only employs 591,400 out of 6,897,000 manufacturing workers, and only 4,073,300 out of a total labor force of 44,915,800. Russia is more "socialist" than that.

[Obs]

1. They're very close to the Cubans.

2. They participate in the International Communist Seminar about every other year.
These prove nothing.


3. They've kept up a highly consistent anti-imperialist policy.
Co-operating with American military = Highly consistent anti-imperialist policy. Right on!


4. The Cubans consider them socialist beyond a doubt.
Cuba has fallen farther than I feared, then. Again, this proves nothing, especially to people like Red America who don't believe Cuba is socialist.


5. A few years ago, they had some trouble concerning ethnic unrest among the hill tribes. The problem was determined to result from incorrect party policies, & the general secretary/premier was deposed in favor of a new fellow who is actually a member of a hill tribe.
This is relevant because...
...
...
...

Denmark is more socialist than Vietnam. Not only do we have a red flag, we also have socialised healthcare.

[RadioRaheem84]

The Communist boutique that sells anti-Imperialist apparel, mugs and posters is owned by a British investment banker! The owner is middle aged pony tailed Brit named Dominic! It didn't say he used sweatshop labor but I wonder what the added value is on a boutique like that.

The Al Jazeera special tried desperately to repel any notion of Vietnam being Communist and even hinted that all the government does is post public health announcements about smoking and HIV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXLXW5SwP-A

[anticap]

Denmark is more socialist than Vietnam.

I don't define socialism by public-sector employment, but according to the excellent link provided by SocialismOrBarbarism private-sector employment is 34% higher in Vietnam than in Denmark. That says enough.

Of course, just because 91% of Vietnamese employment is in the private-sector doesn't mean that it's '91% capitalist,' but it does mean that it's '91% not-socialist,' even if one does define socialism by public-sector employment.

(If anyone thinks I'm gloating, I'm not. I think it's a travesty.)

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Wow i thought that is was common knowledge that Vietnam is as much socialist as China (not at all). Speaking of nothing arnt Vietnam the second largest country when its commes to executions? The people must feel such a betrayl, first they had to fight and endure this horrible war and then the socialism they where supporting was ripped frome theire hands, how sad.

[AK]

Vietnam is one of the last true Socialist Countries on earth.
http://aejjabaad.webs.com/dont%20stop%20believing.jpg
Care to explain to me how exactly it is that workers democratically manage the entire economy without reference to bureaucrats and the state?