Po' Folk

[Bud Struggle]

You know, it's stuff like this that makes me think sometimes that you Commies ar right.


The percentage of Americans struggling below the poverty line in 2009 was the highest it has been in 15 years, the Census Bureau (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/census_bureau/index.html?inline=nyt-org)reported (http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf) Thursday, and interviews with poverty experts and aid groups said the increase appeared to be continuing this year.

With the country in its worst economic crisis since the Great Depression (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/g/great_depression_1930s/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), four million additional Americans found themselves in poverty in 2009, with the total reaching 44 million, or one in seven residents. Millions more were surviving only because of expanded unemployment insurance and other assistance.

And the numbers could have climbed higher: One way embattled Americans have gotten by is sharing homes with siblings, parents or even nonrelatives, sometimes resulting in overused couches and frayed nerves but holding down the rise in the national poverty rate, according to the report.

The share of residents in poverty climbed to 14.3 percent in 2009, the highest level recorded since 1994. The rise was steepest for children, with one in five affected, the bureau said.



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/us/17poverty.html?_r=1&hp

Related article:

One of the most striking statistics released Thursday was the number of people aged 25 to 34 who are living with their parents. That number rose 8.4 percent, to 5.5 million from 5.1 million, in the last two years. We knew that recent college graduates were moving back in with their parents, but the fact that even older adults are doing so because they can’t make it on their own is a sign of the difficult economic times.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/a-more-nuanced-look-at-poverty-numbers/

This would be an area that I'm sure you Communists are leading the triend. ;) Still it doesn't look well for America.

[Revolution starts with U]

Guilty. But I am moving out at the end of this month (26, have moved out before but it didnt work out).

[Ele'ill]

What about us anarchists? Do you ever think that we are right?

[#FF0000]

What about us anarchists? Do you ever think that we are right?

you guys are communists too silly

[Ele'ill]

you guys are communists too silly

I meant in regards to Bud's chosen flavor of communism.


And if I'm not mistaken there is a difference between communism and anarchism-


It's a fucking word play- I get it.

[Bud Struggle]

I meant in regards to Bud's chosen flavor of communism.


And if I'm not mistaken there is a difference between communism and anarchism-


It's a fucking word play- I get it.

Here's my deal--I like Anarchists better than those Gulag lovin', Stalin worshipin', Vanguard marchin' all over the place Commies.

I'm a big fan of the Technocrats--too. :(

One thing I like about being a Capitalist--being able to walk out my front door and giving the world the finger (with both hands.) I think that's more an Anarchinst than Marxist-Leninist or Trotskyist way of thinking.

[Revolution starts with U]

Why can't you give the world the finger in communism? You can do that all you want, you just cant exploit them and then tell them to go fuck themselves.

[Bud Struggle]

Why can't you give the world the finger in communism? You can do that all you want, you just cant exploit them and then tell them to go fuck themselves.

Stalin doesn't like gettint the finger.

FYI: There is a FANTASTIC amount of freedom in being a Capitlaist.

[Revolution starts with U]

Ha, try giving the finger to some rich capitalist in a non-democratic capitalist nation and it will wind up just the same.
I think your problem is with authoritarianism. Join the anarchist movement friend, democracy is awesome!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This would be an area that I'm sure you Communists are leading the triend. ;) Still it doesn't look well for America.

I'm living on my own, but it's a precarious existence even with the relatively generous state benefits available in the UK.

By the way, does the US even have unemployment benefits?

[Lt. Ferret]

I'm living on my own, but it's a precarious existence even with the relatively generous state benefits available in the UK.

By the way, does the US even have unemployment benefits?



yes, my dads been unemployed for two years.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

yes, my dads been unemployed for two years.

What does he get, if you do not mind me asking?

[Lt. Ferret]

What does he get, if you do not mind me asking?


not sure exactly. but his house and car are paid off already by him, and it seems to get him enough food to live comfortably. i dont know the details since we dont talk so much anymore and it seems kind of a social faux paux to ask about unemployment benefits.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

not sure exactly. but his house and car are paid off already by him, and it seems to get him enough food to live comfortably. i dont know the details since we dont talk so much anymore and it seems kind of a social faux paux to ask about unemployment benefits.

Really? That's surprising, since I've gotten the strong impression that the US has next to no social safety net. I suppose it also varies from state to state.

[Lt. Ferret]

a third of our budget is safety net related. we have a pretty big, rather inefficient safety net. conservatives want to abolish it because its so costly, when it just really needs to be fixed.

[Bud Struggle]

Really? That's surprising, since I've gotten the strong impression that the US has next to no social safety net. I suppose it also varies from state to state.

Federally, one gets 99 weeks of unemployment checks. Also if one makes a wage below the poverty level instead of paying taxes one gets money from the government.

While probably not up to European standards--benefits for unemployed Americans aren't horrible.

[Die Rote Fahne]

You know, it's stuff like this that makes me think sometimes that you Commies ar right.


The percentage of Americans struggling below the poverty line in 2009 was the highest it has been in 15 years, the Census Bureau (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/census_bureau/index.html?inline=nyt-org)reported (http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf) Thursday, and interviews with poverty experts and aid groups said the increase appeared to be continuing this year.

With the country in its worst economic crisis since the Great Depression (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/g/great_depression_1930s/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), four million additional Americans found themselves in poverty in 2009, with the total reaching 44 million, or one in seven residents. Millions more were surviving only because of expanded unemployment insurance and other assistance.

And the numbers could have climbed higher: One way embattled Americans have gotten by is sharing homes with siblings, parents or even nonrelatives, sometimes resulting in overused couches and frayed nerves but holding down the rise in the national poverty rate, according to the report.

The share of residents in poverty climbed to 14.3 percent in 2009, the highest level recorded since 1994. The rise was steepest for children, with one in five affected, the bureau said.



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/us/17poverty.html?_r=1&hp

Related article:

One of the most striking statistics released Thursday was the number of people aged 25 to 34 who are living with their parents. That number rose 8.4 percent, to 5.5 million from 5.1 million, in the last two years. We knew that recent college graduates were moving back in with their parents, but the fact that even older adults are doing so because they can’t make it on their own is a sign of the difficult economic times.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/a-more-nuanced-look-at-poverty-numbers/

This would be an area that I'm sure you Communists are leading the triend. ;) Still it doesn't look well for America.

A lot of communists are working class and sometimes cannot afford to leave their parents homes until they graduate college/university.

[Nolan]

What Bud Struggle said. It's not as good as in Europe, but it's better than anywhere else.

[anticap]

In the US there is a nearly oppressive social stigma attached to the safety net, however. If one qualifies for food stamps, for example, one is likely to think twice about applying for them because of the glares and whispers at the grocery store. I wonder if it's the same elsewhere.

[Bud Struggle]

In the US there is a nearly oppressive social stigma attached to the safety net, however. If one qualifies for food stamps, for example, one is likely to think twice about applying for them because of the glares and whispers at the grocery store. I wonder if it's the same elsewhere.

Revolutionary wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Actually people getting "foodstamps" get something called an EBT card. It looks and acts like a credit card. You swipe it through the machine and you get the food.

Nobody knows.

Really.

https://www.ebt.acs-inc.com/

[#FF0000]

In the US there is a nearly oppressive social stigma attached to the safety net, however. If one qualifies for food stamps, for example, one is likely to think twice about applying for them because of the glares and whispers at the grocery store. I wonder if it's the same elsewhere.

Yeah this is funny as hell to me. You should ask my mom about how people in line react to you buying baby formula and eggs with WIC.

It's funnier, too. People who are against safety nets complain that people are using them for "frivilous" things but then complain when they have someone buy something, anything with food stamps, because the food stamps come from "my tax money".

I tell them to quit their job if they think being that poor is so fucking easy.



Revolutionary wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Actually people getting "foodstamps" get something called an EBT card. It looks and acts like a credit card. You swipe it through the machine and you get the food.

Nobody knows.

Really.

https://www.ebt.acs-inc.com/



Oh, I didn't know they did it like that. I suppose that's why only my friends who are cashiers complain about it.

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah this is funny as hell to me. You should ask my mom about how people in line react to you buying baby formula and eggs with WIC.

It's funny, too. People who are against safety nets complain that people are using them for "frivilous" things but then complain when they have someone buy something, anything with food stamps, because the food stamps come from "my tax money".

I tell them to quit their job if they think being that poor is so fucking easy.

Read my post about the EBTcard. :cool: [edit] you did.

Anyway--that is EXACTLY how America is supposed to work, a general safty net for those in trouble. Nothing permanent and nothing forever--but a general shield against unfortunate destitution.

Not great, but it works. And the stigma issue--is crap.

[Os Cangaceiros]

And the stigma issue--is crap.

Not really. Welfare is still a dirty word in the political (and social) discourse here.

[Bud Struggle]

Not really. Welfare is still a dirty word in the political (and social) discourse here.

Fair point in general. But you never have to "show" your poverty personally in public at the store. I think America is rather good in that respect.

[anticap]

Actually people getting "foodstamps" get something called an EBT card.

I am quite aware. I suggest you talk to someone who actually has to use one and ask them what they go through with it.


you never have to "show" your poverty personally in public at the store. I think America is rather good in that respect.

You're full of shit.

[Jazzratt]

Anyway--that is EXACTLY how America is supposed to work, a general safty net for those in trouble. Nothing permanent and nothing forever--but a general shield against unfortunate destitution. It's not a "safety net" or a "shield" if its protection is conditional. I wouldn't tightrope walk over a safety net which gave way after a given amount of time.

It's fucking barbaric that unemployment benefits just stop after a given amount of time. That's not protecting anyone.

[Bud Struggle]

I am quite aware. I suggest you talk to someone who actually has to use one and ask them what they go through with it.

You're full of shit.

What is your point? I have a few quick markets that have the card machines. No one knows who purchased what. I know EXACTLY how they work. They are completely anonymous. You swipe the card and push the EBT button. Nothing more is required. The card is like any other credit card and the button is hidden.

I would say that AFTER the Revolution he who pulls his weight and he who doesn't will be much more on display.


It's not a "safety net" or a "shield" if its protection is conditional. I wouldn't tightrope walk over a safety net which gave way after a given amount of time.

It's fucking barbaric that unemployment benefits just stop after a given amount of time. That's not protecting anyone. 99 weeks is TWO YEARS! I'm sure anyone could find a job by then. Anyway--America isn't a "nanny state." Everybody is required to take care of themselves in the final analysis.

[anticap]

What is your point? I have a few quick makets that have the card machines. No one knows who purchased what. I know EXACTLY how they work. They are completely anonymous.

Fuck you.

[Bud Struggle]

Fuck you.

You know what? I apologize.

I don't know what your issue is here--but it's best not to get into it.

Didn't mean to create anything but a topical discussion. Let's drop it.

[Jazzratt]

99 weeks is TWO YEARS! I'm sure anyone could find a job by then. Anyway--America isn't a "nanny state." Everybody is required to take care of themselves in the final analysis.I've come periolosly close to 2 years continual unemployment since leaving school. I personally know at least two other people with the same problem in my area alone. Bear in mind that here the unemployed are legally obliged to actively look for work, and produce evidence of this, in order to recieve benefits so it's not like anyone wasn't looking even if they wanted to. Denying people benefits after an arbitrary length of time (two days, two years, whatever) is fucking inhuman and doesn't show any understanding of the realities of the labour market at all.

[Bud Struggle]

I've come periolosly close to 2 years continual unemployment since leaving school. I personally know at least two other people with the same problem in my area alone. Bear in mind that here the unemployed are legally obliged to actively look for work, and produce evidence of this, in order to recieve benefits so it's not like anyone wasn't looking even if they wanted to. Denying people benefits after an arbitrary length of time (two days, two years, whatever) is fucking inhuman and doesn't show any understanding of the realities of the labour market at all.

I agree with you.

I am pretty much appalled that here in America 15% of the people live in poverty. One in four Blacks and one in five children. That just sucks. It's probably something similar over in Britain. That is just no way for people in the first world to live. Not that I think we're better than people in other places--but if we can't get a hold on poverty, how can we spread prosparity to the rest of the world?

[anticap]

You know what? I apologize.

I don't know what your issue is here--but it's best not to get into it.

Didn't mean to create anything but a topical discussion. Let's drop it.

You're talking shit about the cards working as intended, and I suspect that you know it. It's possible that there are oblivious store owners, but the regular experience of several people at multiple locations suggests otherwise. The end result of the bullshit that people often have to go through with their card is that it might as well have been the old-style coupons because the user's 'cover' is blown and the snickers begin.

There is a stigma attached to all forms of 'safety net' in the US. People who collect food stamps, etc., or are living on unemployment or disability payments, are often treated like leeches, and this attitude is fostered by your fucking class, "Bud."

[#FF0000]

Yeah, so, anticap, chill out.

[Nolan]

Fuck you.

Be civil. Bud Struggle is one of the nice capitalists.

[anticap]

Yeah, so, anticap, chill out.

Well, I'm not going to be painted as a liar by a guy whose 'experience' with this subject is from the other side of those he pretends to understand.


Bud Struggle is one of the nice capitalists.

Incredible.

[#FF0000]

Well, I'm not going to be painted as a liar by a guy whose 'experience' with this subject is from the other side of those he pretends to understand.



Incredible.

Yeah I sort of figured it was something like this and as a guy who literally knows everything I know it's frustrating when people say something is one way when it isn't always but it's not an excuse to not be civil. I know what it's like too, sometimes.

Anyway let's just keep it civil from here on out and direct complaints to my inbox or the member's forum or something.

[Bud Struggle]

You're talking shit about the cards working as intended, and I suspect that you know it. It's possible that there are oblivious store owners, but the regular experience of several people at multiple locations suggests otherwise. The end result of the bullshit that people often have to go through with their card is that it might as well have been the old-style coupons because the user's 'cover' is blown and the snickers begin. I don't KNOW that. The cards look like regular credit cards. I'm sure there are people tha can tell the difference from a mile away, but to the untrained eye (and that would be 99% of the people out there) the difference can't be told. You swipe the card and press either debit. credit or EBT. Three buttons lined up next to each other--protected by a shield so people can't read each other's PIN number. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good and it does seem like the government is trying.


There is a stigma attached to all forms of 'safety net' in the US. People who collect food stamps, etc., or are living on unemployment or disability payments, are often treated like leeches, and this attitude is fostered by your fucking class, "Bud." Really and truly--my class doesn't really give a shit what anyone else is doing. They don't even know anyone else exists much less worry about what they are doing or what button they are pressing on their ATM.

You are way overthinking this Comrade.

[anticap]

I don't KNOW that. The cards look like regular credit cards. I'm sure there are people tha can tell the difference from a mile away, but to the untrained eye (and that would be 99% of the people out there) the difference can't be told. You swipe the card and press either debit. credit or EBT. Three buttons lined up next to each other--protected by a shield so people can't read each other's PIN number. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good and it does seem like the government is trying.

You're still not getting it: the damned things often don't work as intended. I've done everything I can to avoid spelling out how I know this, which I'm not going to do for the likes of you.


You are way overthinking this Comrade.

I'm not your comrade, and I'm not "thinking" anything -- I'm knowing.

[Revolution starts with U]

When America does things socialist, it is for one reason only; revolution insurance. We half-ass everything just to shut up the rabble. Even this healthcare bill.. sure, it's great that everyone will be covered. But it's really just a hand-out to the healthcare industry.

[Bud Struggle]

You're still not getting it, and I've done everything I can to word my posts in such a way as to avoid spelling it out, which I'm not going to do for the likes of you. You just don't like the idea of all this. Well I can't blame you. But on the other hand there has to be the real world issue of getting money to the people that need it and the EBT system is the most discrete there is by far. It would be great if everyting was free--but you are going to have to wait till the Revolution for that one.

As for your edit--maybe it doesn't work as intended--it's still quite new. Give it a bit of time. And the store owner has to put the damn machines in at his OWN EXPENSE. Not all store owners have that kind of ready cash they can spend jut to keep the customers from being embarassed.




I'm not your comrade. Everyone is my Comrade until he shows different. :)

[#FF0000]

When America does things socialist, it is for one reason only; revolution insurance. We half-ass everything just to shut up the rabble. Even this healthcare bill.. sure, it's great that everyone will be covered. But it's really just a hand-out to the healthcare industry.

Having a safety net and unions and things doesn't really count as "doing things socialist".

Anyway, anticap, again, you have to tone it down. This really isn't something to get so worked up over.

[anticap]

Everyone is my Comrade until he shows different.

Have I not been explicit enough?


anticap, again, you have to tone it down. This really isn't something to get so worked up over.

I did tone it down, and it is something to get worked up over.

[Bud Struggle]

I edited my post while you were quoting me.

I know. I edited to suit your edit. :)

[Bud Struggle]

Have I not been explicit enough?

Not even CLOSE. :D I've been around RevLeft a LONG TIME--I've seen some REALLY PISSED OFF Commies. Now if we were arguing about Stalin and the Ukrainians..... :D :D :D

[anticap]

Not even CLOSE. :D I've been around RevLeft a LONG TIME--I've seen some REALLY PISSED OFF Commies. :D :D :D

I've explicitly told you that I am not your comrade. If that's not enough for you to get the message then I guess you'll have to go on believing that your enemies are your friends since I've already received a scolding for language.

[Bud Struggle]

I've explicitly told you that I am not your comrade. If that's not enough for you to get the message then I guess you'll have to go on believing that your enemies are your friends since I've already received a scolding for language.

Then I just will go on believing what I choose to believe. :)

[anticap]

And the store owner has to put the damn machines in at his OWN EXPENSE.

Every dime of which was extracted through surplus labor.


Not all store owners have that kind of ready cash they can spend jut to keep the customers from being embarassed.

See, now if I were a mod I wouldn't let this attitude slide. I'd tell you to walk a mile in their shoes before being so flippant.

[Plagueround]

Bud is right for the most part about EBT cards being a bit more discreet. Most of the time no one notices. However, if someone does notice or people find out you use them, you quickly transform into the HORRIBLE SCUM OF THE EARTH right in front of their eyes. When we had them, there was this loud mouth cashier that started itemizing our groceries and telling us what we could and couldn't use the card for. That sucked. There is definitely a stigma attached to them, even if they're not a big leaflet that says "HEY EVERYONE LOOKS I HAVE FOOD STAMPS".

[Nolan]

That must be the reason EBT cards are made to be discreet.

[Bud Struggle]

Every dime of which was extracted through surplus labor.

See, now if I were a mod I wouldn't let this attitude slide. I'd tell you to walk a mile in their shoes before being so flippant.

That's all well and good if the store is owned by WalMart or Target. Plenty of money there, but a lot of mom and pops also need these machines and they are slower in putting them in because of the expense.

Not all store owners are rich Capitalists.


Bud is right for the most part about EBT cards being a bit more discreet. Most of the time no one notices. However, if someone does notice or people find out you use them, you quickly transform into the HORRIBLE SCUM OF THE EARTH right in front of their eyes. When we had them, there was this loud mouth cashier that started itemizing our groceries and telling us what we could and couldn't use the card for. That sucked. There is definitely a stigma attached to them, even if they're not a big leaflet that says "HEY EVERYONE LOOKS I HAVE FOOD STAMPS".
And the point here is that the rich Capitalists are working hard to make these machines available to everyone so that food stamp buying can be discrete--and they are being defeated by one of your fellow Proletarians who want to stick it to one of their Comrades because they have some crummy $7.25 an hour job and you don't.

It sure isn't the guy who owns the store that gives a damn about where your money comes from--all he cares about is that you buy something from him.

[CommunityBeliever]

it's stuff like this that makes me think

You thinking??!? :confused:


One way embattled Americans have gotten by is sharing homes with siblings, parents or even nonrelatives, sometimes resulting in overused couches

Also sometimes resulting in the spread of germs and parasites :crying:

[anticap]

And the point here is that the rich Capitalists are working hard to make these machines available to everyone so that food stamp buying can be discrete--and they are being defeated by one of your fellow Proletarians who want to stick it to one of their Comrades because they have some crummy $7.25 an hour job and you don't.

I can't make sense of the part after the em-dash; what exactly are you saying there, and whom are you referring to?

[Bud Struggle]

I can't make sense of the part after the em-dash; what exactly are you saying there, and whom are you referring to?

I am saying that Capitalists aren't the ones making fun of people using food stamps--it's your fellow Proletarians who happen to have low end check out jobs.

[anticap]

I am saying that Capitalists aren't the ones making fun of people using food stamps--it's your fellow Proletarians who happen to have low end check out jobs.

I see.

Who do you suppose fosters that mentality, and why?

[Plagueround]

And the point here is that the rich Capitalists are working hard to make these machines available to everyone so that food stamp buying can be discrete--and they are being defeated by one of your fellow Proletarians who want to stick it to one of their Comrades because they have some crummy $7.25 an hour job and you don't.

It sure isn't the guy who owns the store that gives a damn about where your money comes from--all he cares about is that you buy something from him.

Well yeah, but he's also got to make sure he's turned the proles against each other. Create class divisions where there aren't any and all that jazz.

[Revolution starts with U]

Do you not remember that douche of a day-trader screaming that "HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY FOR LAZY PEOPLE'S MORTGAGE ARGGGHGHHGHGHGHGH!!!!!!!!"
It is only other proles that look down on them because the bou's are far to terrified to step foot in prole stores.

[RotStern]

Chill.

[Bud Struggle]

I see.

Who do you suppose fosters that mentality, and why?


Well yeah, but he's also got to make sure he's turned the proles against each other. Create class divisions where there aren't any and all that jazz.

Do you guys have any proof that Capitalists foster class division? And really why would we care? It's not as if most (if any) Capitalist even believe in the idea of class or class warfare to begin with. You are postiting that somehow Capitalists believe in the Marxist economic system and then somehow are trying to subvert it. Nothing is further from the truth.

What the Capitalist wants is only one thing: your dollar. He doesn't care if you got it from a trust fund or earned it or if they are food stamps. None of that really matters to a Capitalist--all that matters is that you come into the store with the dollar and you leave without it. If you come into a Capitalist's store and are ridiculed for any reason and thus prevented from spending your money or discouraged from returning--it is BAD CAPITALISM.

If I or any other Capitalist found out that someone didn't buy something or was discouraged from buying something in their store by an employee making fun of a customer FOR ANY REASON that employee would/should be terminated.

The entire reason for the EBT is to make it easier and more comfortable for the Capitalist to take your dollar--what do you think stores are putting in this expensive system for? Because we like you? It is because we want you to feel at ease and secure in your identity when you give us your money.

Class division is bad for business. That is the Proletarian making fun of the Proletarian for their own reasons.

[#FF0000]

Class division is bad for business.

And working class solidarity is terrible for it.


That is the Proletarian making fun of the Proletarian for their own reasons.

There's a word for it, but I can't remember it. It's when people of an underclass look down on another part of the underclass. Happened with poor whites and slaves in the South, happens today.

And of course class division is fostered. It might not be decided like "OH HEY LETS TURN THE WORKERS AGAINST EACH OTHER HAHAHA" at the Evil Bourgeois Council meeting but it definitely happens. See: Right Wing American politicians othering and scape goating muslims, immigrants, and "welfare queens".

[Bud Struggle]

And working class solidarity is terrible for it. Again, you are positing that Capitalist first of all have even heard of "Class Solidarity" or "Class Division" let alone believe in it. I've been a Capitalist all of my life and none of that stuff ever crossed my mind until I showed up at the door of RevLeft. And all that Proletarian/Borugeois terminology is fine if you believe that is how the world is defined, but there are plenty of other definitions of the world that get a lot more play in the Capitalist world view.


There's a word for it, but I can't remember it. It's when people of an underclass look down on another part of the underclass. Happened with poor whites and slaves in the South, happens today. I agree that it happens--I see it all of the time, from keeping up with the Jonese to high school football competitions, to beauty contests. People are by nature competitive--and if there isn't something actual to compete about--they will make something up.


And of course class division is fostered. It might not be decided like "OH HEY LETS TURN THE WORKERS AGAINST EACH OTHER HAHAHA" at the Evil Bourgeois Council meeting but it definitely happens. See: Right Wing American politicians othering and scape goating muslims, immigrants, and "welfare queens". All of that happens and it happens, but that is more human nature than anything else. And THAT is the big reason that Communists deny the existance of Human Nature. :)

[#FF0000]

Again, you are positing that Capitalist first of all have even heard of "Class Solidarity" or "Class Division" let alone believe in it. I've been a Capitalist all of my life and none of that stuff ever crossed my mind until I showed up at the door of RevLeft. And all that Proletarian/Borugeois terminology is fine if you believe that is how the world is defined, but there are plenty of other definitions of the world that get a lot more play in the Capitalist world view.

No that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. They do it without having to know it because it's good for business. Workers NOT striking is good for business. Workers with mortgages and not much of a safety net is good for business. Social atomization is good for business.

But only in the short term.


I agree that it happens--I see it all of the time, from keeping up with the Jonese to high school football competitions, to beauty contests. People are by nature competitive--and if there isn't something actual to compete about--they will make something up.

That isn't what this is though.


All of that happens and it happens, but that is more human nature than anything else. And THAT is the big reason that Communists deny the existance of Human Nature. :)

I deny the existence of human nature because it's a word with no definition that just gets thrown around whenever someone has an agenda.

People do definitely and naturally form in-groups and out-groups though. It isn't necessarily based on race or anything though. People with power take advantage of this.

[Bud Struggle]

No that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. They do it without having to know it because it's good for business. Workers NOT striking is good for business. Workers with mortgages and not much of a safety net is good for business. Social atomization is good for business. That's fair enough. But I don't know if that is the case. I think unions ARE good for business. Business (in general) is hurt by WalMart not being unionized. A strike is bad for an individual business--but overall the union system that began in the 30s was one of the engines that made America into a wealthy country. The LACK of union is now hurting America an polerizing its wealth.

Discrimination is always bad for business, keeping Blacks poor is bad for business. Oppression is bad for business. The problem is that business doesn't always do what is best for business.


I deny the existence of human nature because it's a word with no definition that just gets thrown around whenever someone has an agenda. OK, I see it when I see trends in what people do when I don't see any outside causes.


People do definitely and naturally form in-groups and out-groups though. It isn't necessarily based on race or anything though. People with power take advantage of this. Well would call this human nature and while splitting the working class is ultimately in the Bourgeois's advantage--I firmly believe that the Proletarians do it to themselves without any help from the Capitalists.

[RGacky3]

One thing I like about being a Capitalist--being able to walk out my front door and giving the world the finger (with both hands.)

No you can't you gotta make money, thats not a capitalist thing, its more a teenage punk that hates his mom thing.


And all that Proletarian/Borugeois terminology is fine if you believe that is how the world is defined, but there are plenty of other definitions of the world that get a lot more play in the Capitalist world view.

Read the Wall Street Journal, the Capitalist class is exteremely class concsious.


People are by nature competitive--and if there isn't something actual to compete about--they will make something up.

So what? democracy is also competative, but its fair.

BTW, your wrong about that, science has found that human nature is actually more naturally cooperative.


All of that happens and it happens, but that is more human nature than anything else. And THAT is the big reason that Communists deny the existance of Human Nature. :)

Its not communists its scientists, sorry Bud.


That's fair enough. But I don't know if that is the case. I think unions ARE good for business. Business (in general) is hurt by WalMart not being unionized. A strike is bad for an individual business--but overall the union system that began in the 30s was one of the engines that made America into a wealthy country. The LACK of union is now hurting America an polerizing its wealth.

Discrimination is always bad for business, keeping Blacks poor is bad for business. Oppression is bad for business. The problem is that business doesn't always do what is best for business.

Depends what you mean by buisiness, if you mean the overall economy, then yeah, its bad for it, if you mean ME maximising my money, then no, its not good, thats the contradiction of capitalism, whats good for individual buisinesses and individual capitalists is many times bad for the entire economy, and sometimes bad for the actual buisiness.

Capitalism has a TERRIBLE incentive system.

[#FF0000]

OK, I see it when I see trends in what people do when I don't see any outside causes.

I'm not saying there's not some behavior that's sort of universal or something like that. I just wouldn't call it "human nature".

[anticap]

I agree that it happens--I see it all of the time, from keeping up with the Jonese to high school football competitions, to beauty contests. People are by nature competitive--and if there isn't something actual to compete about--they will make something up.

...

All of that happens and it happens, but that is more human nature than anything else. And THAT is the big reason that Communists deny the existance of Human Nature. :)

No, we look behind the veil for the causes of things. You chalk up the status quo to "human nature" just as every defender of every status quo has always done.


One of the most widespread popular maxims is, "human nature cannot be changed." No one can say whether this is true or not without first defining "human nature." But as used it is certainly false. When Mr. A utters the maxim, with an air of portentous and conclusive wisdom, what he means is that all men everywhere will always continue to behave as they do in his own home town. A little anthropology will dispel this belief.

[#FF0000]

Its not communists its scientists, sorry Bud.

I love this.

[anticap]

Read the Wall Street Journal, the Capitalist class is exteremely class concsious.

Indeed; I seem to recall Chomsky expounding on this somewhere....

[Bud Struggle]

No you can't you gotta make money, thats not a capitalist thing, its more a teenage punk that hates his mom thing. Once you make your money--the world is you oyster. :)


Read the Wall Street Journal, the Capitalist class is exteremely class concsious. Most of the writers on the WSJ are Liberals.


So what? democracy is also competative, but its fair.


BTW, your wrong about that, science has found that human nature is actually more naturally cooperative.

Its not communists its scientists, sorry Bud. People CAN be competitive and can work together. The fact that a few scientist can get small groups to work together isn't anything new--it just doesn't seen to bear fruit in the real world.


Depends what you mean by buisiness, if you mean the overall economy, then yeah, its bad for it, if you mean ME maximising my money, then no, its not good, thats the contradiction of capitalism, whats good for individual buisinesses and individual capitalists is many times bad for the entire economy, and sometimes bad for the actual buisiness.

Capitalism has a TERRIBLE incentive system. It may not always owrk correctly--and that's where government comes in. If it's balanced correctly it works quite well. But again--that's a matter of opinion.

[Bud Struggle]

No, we look behind the veil for the causes of things. You chalk up the status quo to "human nature" just as every defender of every status quo has always done.

I honestly don't care what it is. It just is that way. Nobody is pulling any strings on this--because nobody believes any of this Marxist stuff--at least not in the business world. I'm happy to believe that Capitalism has within itself it's own self defense mechanism that isn't controled by anyone.

[RGacky3]

Most of the writers on the WSJ are Liberals.


So? Read it and the Financial times, its profusely class concious, they know who the capitalists are and the workers. Capitalists know how to keep their power and how class works. Liberal or conservative, who cares, they are capitalists.


People CAN be competitive and can work together. The fact that a few scientist can get small groups to work together isn't anything new--it just doesn't seen to bear fruit in the real world.

Why not actually read the studies and learn what they say.

The so called REAL world, is just situational, people adjust to their situation, which is why slavery was accepted before, does that mean slavery is "human nature"? Nope.

Scientists did'nt "just get people to cooperate" theres more to that, they are pretty smart. But again, read scientific studies, you might learn something.


It may not always owrk correctly--and that's where government comes in. If it's balanced correctly it works quite well. But again--that's a matter of opinion.

Generally, but thats where Marxism comes it, Capitalists will ALWAYS try and get around the rules, and destroy the balance to make their money, its an internal contradiciont, its better to just get rid of Capitalism.

[Bud Struggle]

So? Read it and the Financial times, its profusely class concious, they know who the capitalists are and the workers. Capitalists know how to keep their power and how class works. Liberal or conservative, who cares, they are capitalists. Journalism is run by Liberals. Maybe ultra Liberals--when these people graduate journalism school some get jobs at the WST or the FT some the NYTimes and some Mother Jones. Then they ply their craft. Read the editorials in the WSJ--they are all ultra Liberal.


Why not actually read the studies and learn what they say. Studies are nice--but if you want to know how the world works--look out your window.


The so called REAL world, is just situational, people adjust to their situation, which is why slavery was accepted before, does that mean slavery is "human nature"? Nope. I don't know that. It may be human nature and we just decided to ban it for social and humanitarian reasons. It is good that we did, but that could be our social conventions surplanting our human drives.


Scientists did'nt "just get people to cooperate" theres more to that, they are pretty smart. But again, read scientific studies, you might learn something. HR firms try to get people in business to cooperate all of the time. Billions are spend getting people in the same office to work together. sometimes they work--but mostly people compete.


Generally, but thats where Marxism comes it, Capitalists will ALWAYS try and get around the rules, and destroy the balance to make their money, its an internal contradiciont, its better to just get rid of Capitalism. I don't see that happening. But actually it was Marxism, or Socialism and unions that made Capitalism work a lot better. Capitalism would have fallen to Marxism in the 30s-50s if Capitalism didn't incorporate Socialistic elements into business and into government to make places like Western Wurope and America in to quasi welfare states.

As I said: the dialectic works. It just is a different one than the one Marx stated.

[#FF0000]

Studies are nice--but if you want to know how the world works--look out your window.

If you really want to understand the universe, just look on the surface!

[#FF0000]

btw Warren G. Buffet has a p. famous quote where he acknowledges there is class warfare.

[anticap]

ultra Liberal

I hope you understand that to many of us this means 'ultra-capitalist.'

[Bud Struggle]

btw Warren G. Buffet has a p. famous quote where he acknowledges there is class warfare.

And it's a good one too! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

:lol:

[Bud Struggle]

I hope you understand that to many of us this means 'ultra-capitalist.'

Oops. Sorry if I defined that term wrong. I meant a Liberal boardering on Socialism.

[anticap]

btw Warren G. Buffet has a p. famous quote where he acknowledges there is class warfare.


And it's a good one too! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

:lol:

I'll quote him for the benefit of those who aren't aware:


It's class warfare, my class is winning, but they shouldn't be.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/10/buffett/index.html


There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

[Bud Struggle]

^^^I wouldn't take that nonsense one liner too seriously.

[Revolution starts with U]

So, charitable, inclusive people are unnatural to you?

[RGacky3]

Journalism is run by Liberals. Maybe ultra Liberals--when these people graduate journalism school some get jobs at the WST or the FT some the NYTimes and some Mother Jones. Then they ply their craft. Read the editorials in the WSJ--they are all ultra Liberal.

I DO read it, and as I said, they are class conscious, try and find something positive about venezuela, try and find something pro-union, but your full of it. You don't know what your talking about, they are so pro-capitalist and anti-worker its rediculous. If by liberal you mean someone like Fareed Zakaria, then yeah, i.e. orientated toward the buiniess class and maybe liberal in the sense that they are pro-gay rights.


Studies are nice--but if you want to know how the world works--look out your window.


Look out your window with context and understanding of the natural world, which is what scientists do, and you aparently do not do.


I don't know that. It may be human nature and we just decided to ban it for social and humanitarian reasons. It is good that we did, but that could be our social conventions surplanting our human drives.


Social conventions ARE our human drives.


HR firms try to get people in business to cooperate all of the time. Billions are spend getting people in the same office to work together. sometimes they work--but mostly people compete.


YOur way over simplifying it, HR firms try to make a profit by internally reorganizing offices. But again, I think Buds studies of looking at stuff, is inferior to scientific studies.


I don't see that happening. But actually it was Marxism, or Socialism and unions that made Capitalism work a lot better. Capitalism would have fallen to Marxism in the 30s-50s if Capitalism didn't incorporate Socialistic elements into business and into government to make places like Western Wurope and America in to quasi welfare states.

As I said: the dialectic works. It just is a different one than the one Marx stated.

Well it works I agree with you, but its not sustainable, as we can see by empirical eividence, many countries in western Europe due to buisiness pressure and capitalist power have dismantled some of their socialist programs through privitization, the US has destroyed almost Every slight progress that progressives made.

Social-democracy is good and a step in the right direction, but if it does'nt go all the way its unsustainable.


^^^I wouldn't take that nonsense one liner too seriously.

I would, watch what happens when people try to organize, or when capitalists loose slight power.


Oops. Sorry if I defined that term wrong. I meant a Liberal boardering on Socialism.

You don't know what your talking about.

[Bud Struggle]

I DO read it, and as I said, they are class conscious, try and find something positive about venezuela, try and find something pro-union, but your full of it. You don't know what your talking about, they are so pro-capitalist and anti-worker its rediculous. If by liberal you mean someone like Fareed Zakaria, then yeah, i.e. orientated toward the buiniess class and maybe liberal in the sense that they are pro-gay rights. Again. Tale it for what it's worth. It is one newspaper that writes about business to an extent. Plesent storys that--if you are in business as I am--have absolutely nothing to do with the real world that business is in.


Look out your window with context and understanding of the natural world, which is what scientists do, and you aparently do not do. so some scientists did a study that say some people like to co-operate. I'd agree with that sometimes they do. America is one big co-operative. But people like to compete too. People like football.


Social conventions ARE our human drives. Every animal on easth has a particular nature--so do humans. We aren't that different.


YOur way over simplifying it, HR firms try to make a profit by internally reorganizing offices. But again, I think Buds studies of looking at stuff, is inferior to scientific studies. There are maybe two scientific studies and there are maybe two million HR studies.


Well it works I agree with you, but its not sustainable, as we can see by empirical eividence, many countries in western Europe due to buisiness pressure and capitalist power have dismantled some of their socialist programs through privitization, the US has destroyed almost Every slight progress that progressives made. It is in the end what people want. I think actually we are at a good mixture right now. But there is a continual give and take.


Social-democracy is good and a step in the right direction, but if it does'nt go all the way its unsustainable. Ultimately nothing is sustainable.


I would, watch what happens when people try to organize, or when capitalists loose slight power. The days of organizing are unfortunately are over.


You don't know what your talking about. I don't know what anticap is talkig about. I wasn't using classical Economic terms.

[Plagueround]

Do you guys have any proof that Capitalists foster class division? And really why would we care? It's not as if most (if any) Capitalist even believe in the idea of class or class warfare to begin with. You are postiting that somehow Capitalists believe in the Marxist economic system and then somehow are trying to subvert it. Nothing is further from the truth.


I don't think it's that conscious of a thing. A good number of people just play the part they've been taught to play. But let's not act as if the ruling class has no agenda or desire to protect their own interests, which includes propagating certain ideals and attitudes. These things are much more subtle and are not the blatant and dirty actions of evil mustache twirling villains.

And please, good sir, I am no Marxist. :thumbup1:

[Bud Struggle]

I don't think it's that conscious of a thing. A good number of people just play the part they've been taught to play. But let's not act as if the ruling class has no agenda or desire to protect their own interests, which includes propagating certain ideals and attitudes. I rather agree there. I think it happens, but not by a vast international comspiracy.



These things are much more subtle and are not the blatant and dirty actions of evil mustache twirling villains. You are speaking of Stalin and Trotsky, no doubt. :D


And please, good sir, I am no Marxist. :thumbup1: all in all I tend to side with the Anarchists myself. Anarchist withjust a dash of Technocrat. :)

[danyboy27]

those machines where not implented by food store owner out of kindness bud, it was a marketing move.

if you got a growing number of underpaid and poor people in your neighborhood, if you dont have machine to accept those card, you will lost a lot of money.

Stigma against welfare are verry present in north america and even in canada.
i come from a family of prole, and believe me, the gesture alone to collect the dole is extremely hard for the mind and the body, make you feel like shit, like a burden, a human wreck.

[Bud Struggle]

those machines where not implented by food store owner out of kindness bud, it was a marketing move.

That is EXACTLY what I said. But I also said that the store owners were not in the business of making their customers feel uncomfortable.

If anyone makes Proletarians feel uncomfortable--it is other Proletarians.

[#FF0000]

If anyone makes Proletarians feel uncomfortable--it is other Proletarians.


Well yeah but it also comes from people pushing to get rid of these benefits who stereotype anybody who relieves aid as "lazy". I mean yeah it's workers making others uncomfortable but it's coming from and being perpetuated by someone else.

[RGacky3]

Again. Tale it for what it's worth. It is one newspaper that writes about business to an extent. Plesent storys that--if you are in business as I am--have absolutely nothing to do with the real world that business is in.

Its a news paper for the buisiness class, thus its representative of the attitudes of the buisiness class. As far as your rediculous claim of the media being "liberal" bordering on socialist you need to get your head checked.


so some scientists did a study that say some people like to co-operate. I'd agree with that sometimes they do. America is one big co-operative. But people like to compete too. People like football.


Scientists did many studies, where they had both options, they did historical analysis taking everything into account, they did many things, that show that the NATURAL tendancy, all other things being equal is cooperation. They are scientists they don't just get people to cooperate and then call it a day, theres a scientific method, look it up.

America is not a big co-operative, not at all.


Every animal on easth has a particular nature--so do humans. We aren't that different.


Animals as well as humans change their "natures" based on their enviroment, and considering humans rely less on instinct than most animals, those chances are more extreme in humans. So your wrong again.


There are maybe two scientific studies and there are maybe two million HR studies.


There are no HR studies. Theres a human resources industry yes, which really has very little to do with getting people to cooperate, as much as it has to do with getting the most out of people. Scientific studies are the ones that count, HR firms trying to get the most bang for your buck in a company does'nt even have to do with what we are talking about.


It is in the end what people want. I think actually we are at a good mixture right now. But there is a continual give and take.

You don't know what people want, but yeah, because there only 2 options are ultra-capitalism, or a soft-social democracy.

A good mixture? In the US? Sorry but no one agrees with you.

Also waht give and take? over the last 30 years its just been take, by the capitalist.

But again, social democracy is better than pure capitalism but ultimately its unsustainable, if you can show how it actually is then we are having a conversation, but now your just making unbacked up statements.

But the US is FAARR from even a soft social-democracy.


Ultimately nothing is sustainable.

Ultimately the sun will burn out yes.

But some things are much much more sustainable, socialism is more sustainable than capitalism and social-democracy.


The days of organizing are unfortunately are over.

No, they arn't.


I don't know what anticap is talkig about. I wasn't using classical Economic terms.

If you think the American media is bordering socialistic your a moron.

[Bud Struggle]

Well yeah but it also comes from people pushing to get rid of these benefits who stereotype anybody who relieves aid as "lazy". I mean yeah it's workers making others uncomfortable but it's coming from and being perpetuated by someone else.

The Bourgeoise don't want to get rid of benefits. Without benefits the Proletarians might---------------have a Revolution.

What do you think we are, stupid?

[RGacky3]

The Bourgeoise don't want to get rid of benefits. Without benefits the Proletarians might---------------have a Revolution.

What do you think we are, stupid?

Well .... They act like act like they want to get rid of them, by what they support.

[Bud Struggle]

Well .... They act like act like they want to get rid of them, by what they support.

The Bourgeoisos isn't some monolith. There are more crazy rich people than poor people.

As Juvenal said: panem et circenses.

[RGacky3]

They an't some monolith, but, they do work in their class interest.

[Bud Struggle]

They an't some monolith, but, they do work in their class interest.

And our class interest it to keep you fat dumb and happy full of Lady Gaga and wid screen TVs --not to starve you and get you all pissed off. The Tea Party is AGAINST Bourgeoise interests.

[RGacky3]

not to starve you and get you all pissed off. The Tea Party is AGAINST Bourgeoise interests.

Actually it is, if they know you can't do anything about it, and it is if its gets them more profit. People ARE pissed, but they don't care because they bought the democrats and republicans.

The people voted for someone who supported single payer, braking up the banks and sweeping fnancial reform, but then the capitalists bought him.

[Bud Struggle]

Actually it is, if they know you can't do anything about it, and it is if its gets them more profit. People ARE pissed, but they don't care because they bought the democrats and republicans.

The people voted for someone who supported single payer, braking up the banks and sweeping fnancial reform, but then the capitalists bought him.

Ouch! You give up your responsibility so easily.

[#FF0000]

And our class interest it to keep you fat dumb and happy full of Lady Gaga and wid screen TVs --not to starve you and get you all pissed off. The Tea Party is AGAINST Bourgeoise interests.

It really isn't that simple. I mean Reagan was absolutely goddamn terrible for the American working class. Americans, out of all the workers in the industrial western world, have it the worst in terms of quality of life. Meanwhile, French workers, with their awesome safety, state subsidized nannies, and state ordered mental health days for workers to go to the south of France or whatever, will still threaten to blow up a factory unless they get their year's wages when the plant shuts down.

Half decent living standards isn't necessarily enough to stop people from rebelling and shitty living standards isn't necessarily going to incite class consciousness and discontent.

Sometimes it just shatters morale.

You should take a more Clausewitzian approach to class war.

[RGacky3]

Ouch! You give up your responsibility so easily.

The American people voted one way, the elected official acted another, because people paid him to do so.

My responsibility?

[danyboy27]

And our class interest it to keep you fat dumb and happy full of Lady Gaga and wid screen TVs --not to starve you and get you all pissed off. The Tea Party is AGAINST Bourgeoise interests.

the bourgeoisie is not a single formed entity, there are many sub group of bourgeois with differents interrest.

while some social democrat bourgeois like you see the benefit of creating safety net to entertain the proletariat and keep their higher position by making deal with the state, other hardcore bourgeois would see great benefits of tax cut and the reduction of minimum wage to maximize their profit.

Here in quebec, bourgeois even fight eachother over these kind of issues, from one side, you got the bourgeois who benefit from the state subvention and pacification of the working class, and from the other side, hardcore libertarian who see that more money could be made if services and condition of the proletariat would be decreased.

all that dosnt change nothing from the fact that those people dosnt want us to have our well deserved freedom that they enjoy over the mean of production WE operate.