Teen shares photos of "alleged" gang rape

[Invincible Summer]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Teen+shared+photos+alleged+gang+rape+victim+could+ face+child+porn+charges/3531207/story.html

It's really sad to see this sort of bullshit happen. I believe it happened not too long ago somewhere in the US too.

I stole this from my friend's Facebook page, and some other comments are worrying about how the Internet should be policed and whatnot...

Hello?!?! Someone is gang-raped and people take pictures and you don't worry about the state of patriarchy or women's rights amongst youth?!?!

Here's a very telling quote:



On Facebook Thursday afternoon, it was apparent some teens disagreed, with some making jokes about Pitt Meadow’s bad reputation.
“If you knew the true story you would find it funny...” wrote a young man who graduated from Pitt Meadows Secondary last spring.




Do you think rape and violence against women is trivialized and almost a joke amongst youth today? I mean, it's really common to hear people say "Oh I got raped by that test" and whatnot, which sort of minimizes the severity of the act.


Plus, I've noticed it's a trend to annotate rape cases with "alleged," as if the woman is not trustworthy. What the fuck is up with that?

[Muzk]

Well.....

You can't censore the reality!

I'm with you Basta, since I too, have recognized a growing trivialization of rape and violence against women around here.

[Vanguard1917]

Do you think rape and violence against women is trivialized and almost a joke amongst youth today? I mean, it's really common to hear people say "Oh I got raped by that test" and whatnot, which sort of minimizes the severity of the act.

Just a small comment on this. If i said 'i could murder a steak and kidney pie' or 'i'm going to slaughter you at snooker', would i be trivialising killing?

Rape is trivialised often, particularly by those who wish to widen the definition of rape to involve things that are not actually rape, e.g. drunken consensual sex or consensual sex that you happen to regret the next day. But i don't think that language has much to do with this.

[727Goon]

Plus, I've noticed it's a trend to annotate rape cases with "alleged," as if the woman is not trustworthy. What the fuck is up with that?

Not to split hairs but I think they do this for every court case until there is a concrete verdict, regardless of how obvious it is.

[BeerShaman]

Fuck! I hate people sometimes!

[BeerShaman]

If we had people's justice in a classless society I would propose we punched 'em one each in the face symbolically and then isolated 'em...

[Hiratsuka]

Plus, I've noticed it's a trend to annotate rape cases with "alleged," as if the woman is not trustworthy. What the fuck is up with that?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to every case, and it's not upheld enough. Unfortunately, the accused in capital cases like rape are not protected with anonymity so vengeful people can use it to destroy a man's reputation.

I was once falsey accused of rape. It was a devestating experience even though it didn't go to court because of the sheer lunacy in her narration. I won't say I was violated as bad as someone who was actually raped, but I sure felt like it. Touchy subject since it's hard to prove one way or another if a rape occurs, especially if both parties are intoxicated or high, or if one subject didn't know. (In my case I was the only one who drank, so technically I was raped, heh)

My point? You seem to be presuming they're guilty, basically.

That said, the kid who shared these pics is an idiot. Both because of the child porn charge (which they'll get him on) and because it's part of a criminal investigation. Even if she was just being really promiscuous, he set himself up for jail time.

[Queercommie Girl]

Well.....

You can't censore the reality!

I'm with you Basta, since I too, have recognized a growing trivialization of rape and violence against women around here.

You mean on RevLeft?

Do you have any evidence for this?

[hatzel]

To be honest, I might suggest that, even if this 'alleged' rape were to be proven to be a 'harlot' (sorry!) crying wolf...well, that doesn't make it any better. Why the hell would kids get involved in this kind of stuff, consensually or otherwise? Sure, it's worse if a bunch of guys take a young girl by force, but it's hardly good if they do it with her permission. There's something seriously skew-whiff amongst the youth today, if that's a strong enough word for the problem. And it extends well beyond merely rape, and even beyond all sexuality. What about the stories that crop up every now and then of mobile phone videos of people punching strangers, stabbing rival gang members or setting homeless people on fire. It's disturbing enough that people do these things, but it's even more disturbing that there's a 'market' for the 'evidence', in visual form...I don't see the appeal, really, something I'm sure we'll all agree on...

[gorillafuck]

You mean on RevLeft?

Do you have any evidence for this?
I think Muzk was referring to where she/he lives.

[Quail]

I stole this from my friend's Facebook page, and some other comments are worrying about how the Internet should be policed and whatnot...

Hello?!?! Someone is gang-raped and people take pictures and you don't worry about the state of patriarchy or women's rights amongst youth?!?!

Do you think rape and violence against women is trivialized and almost a joke amongst youth today? I mean, it's really common to hear people say "Oh I got raped by that test" and whatnot, which sort of minimizes the severity of the act.


Plus, I've noticed it's a trend to annotate rape cases with "alleged," as if the woman is not trustworthy. What the fuck is up with that?

Wow, I can't imagine how much that poor woman must be suffering. The rape itself is bad enough, but then having pictures of the assault spread all over the internet? That's some fucked up shit.

I don't really like people using the word rape when it's not in the context of sexual assault. I think it's very insensitive, and I actually think that a lot of people don't realise how common sexual assault is and that actually, there are a lot of people who find the trivialisation of that word quite hurtful.

[Invincible Summer]

Innocent until proven guilty applies to every case, and it's not upheld enough. Unfortunately, the accused in capital cases like rape are not protected with anonymity so vengeful people can use it to destroy a man's reputation.

I was once falsey accused of rape. It was a devestating experience even though it didn't go to court because of the sheer lunacy in her narration. I won't say I was violated as bad as someone who was actually raped, but I sure felt like it. Touchy subject since it's hard to prove one way or another if a rape occurs, especially if both parties are intoxicated or high, or if one subject didn't know. (In my case I was the only one who drank, so technically I was raped, heh)

My point? You seem to be presuming they're guilty, basically.

That said, the kid who shared these pics is an idiot. Both because of the child porn charge (which they'll get him on) and because it's part of a criminal investigation. Even if she was just being really promiscuous, he set himself up for jail time.


Not to split hairs but I think they do this for every court case until there is a concrete verdict, regardless of how obvious it is.

Yes, fair enough about the "alleged" thing.

But it's beside the point. I've noticed quite a few stories similar to this happening within the past couple of years... do you think this has anything to say about current society?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I see a lot of people my age using the term 'rape' in very casual contexts. Do I agree with it? Not in the slightest bit. I believe its down to ignorance towards sexual abuse, and its a real shame because the people who have suffered this abuse are the people that really have trouble trusting society in general.

I can't even begin to imagine the pain and mental torment they have gone through, and I'd also hate to think that they re-live terrible memories every time the word 'rape' is used casually, as if its not a term with deeply disturbing and horrific connotations. How many people that use the term do we think have actually experienced that pain, though? Or even have an idea of the kind of damage rape has done to people's lives? After all, it is a word that is definitely used a lot, mostly out of context, I guess the only thing that could be done is bring about awareness of 'rape', in order to portray it as what it is; a disgusting crime that is a serious manner, not a joke that can be made.

EDIT: That article made me feel sick to my stomach.

[Reznov]

Is there a update to what the girl thinks of this now?

(I cant open that link you posted.)

[hatzel]

Is there a update to what the girl thinks of this now?

(I cant open that link you posted.)

Something tells me she'll be doing her best to stay out of the public spotlight at the moment, be it rape or consensual. Nobody wants to come out straight away telling every Tom, Dick & Harry how they feel after going through such an ordeal.

[Hiero]

To be honest, I might suggest that, even if this 'alleged' rape were to be proven to be a 'harlot' (sorry!) crying wolf...well, that doesn't make it any better. Why the hell would kids get involved in this kind of stuff, consensually or otherwise? Sure, it's worse if a bunch of guys take a young girl by force, but it's hardly good if they do it with her permission. There's something seriously skew-whiff amongst the youth today, if that's a strong enough word for the problem. And it extends well beyond merely rape, and even beyond all sexuality. What about the stories that crop up every now and then of mobile phone videos of people punching strangers, stabbing rival gang members or setting homeless people on fire. It's disturbing enough that people do these things, but it's even more disturbing that there's a 'market' for the 'evidence', in visual form...I don't see the appeal, really, something I'm sure we'll all agree on...

It is not just a youth thing. These sorts of gang bangs have been going on for years. It is a form of "homosociality" or "homoerotic" bonding between men through a female who is an other (not existing withing the groups social circle, or if they are then not too taboo a target like choosen the local "slut"). The gang bang is an act of intimate bonding of males as they watch each other play out one of the highest celeberated acts of masculinity in the West, causual sex with a person who is not close enough to resemble kin.

Male spoting treams like football (Australian) or cricket have been doing these sorts of things for years at all different levels from local clubs to professionals.

These sort of acts should not be read as abhorent external acts, but they have roots within the dominant culture of gender bonding. These acts should be trace back to their roots, which is everyday cultural activities and relationships. This is why the people involved are usually oblivious and why the spectators and the reactions from the public are usually ambigious. They are not sure why these "nice" people would do such a thing. As opposed to the generalist concept of rape, which involved a high level of violence by someone who is long disconnected from society "drugo" "traumatised childhood".

[hatzel]

We should make sure we don't forget that men can be and are raped, too. And I am sure that there have been cases in which women were actively involved in gang rapes as participants, perhaps alongside men, though I don't exactly want to start trying to Google for that, might come across some far from pleasant websites...

If anybody has any news story about female participation in (gang) rape, we might be interested to hear about them. Compare the male- and female-dominated rape.

Quick question...why do we consider rape a male activity? Why aren't female sporting teams doing the same thing, to reference the above example? Or are they?

[counterblast]

Just a small comment on this. If i said 'i could murder a steak and kidney pie' or 'i'm going to slaughter you at snooker', would i be trivialising killing?

Rape is trivialised often, particularly by those who wish to widen the definition of rape to involve things that are not actually rape, e.g. drunken consensual sex or consensual sex that you happen to regret the next day. But i don't think that language has much to do with this.

You're sort of oversimplifying the matter, so I guess I should state the obvious;

Victims of murder are dead.

Survivors of rape are not.

You cannot trigger or trivialize the experiences of a dead person.

[counterblast]

To be honest, I might suggest that, even if this 'alleged' rape were to be proven to be a 'harlot' (sorry!) crying wolf...well, that doesn't make it any better. Why the hell would kids get involved in this kind of stuff, consensually or otherwise? Sure, it's worse if a bunch of guys take a young girl by force, but it's hardly good if they do it with her permission. There's something seriously skew-whiff amongst the youth today, if that's a strong enough word for the problem.

Why? If everyone gives informed consent, I don't really see the problem.

[hatzel]

The fact that pictures emerge, which may not have been consensual, even if the act was, and the fact that one of the potentially willing participants seems to regret or lament being involved suggests to me that all is not well...

Plus I would argue that young people having careless sex, even if consensual, raises problems of diseases, unwanted pregnancy and so on. So it might be a good thing to suggest that people at that kind of age don't get involved in this kind of stuff, from a public health perspective...

[Volcanicity]

We should make sure we don't forget that men can be and are raped, too. And I am sure that there have been cases in which women were actively involved in gang rapes as participants, perhaps alongside men, though I don't exactly want to start trying to Google for that, might come across some far from pleasant websites...

If anybody has any news story about female participation in (gang) rape, we might be interested to hear about them. Compare the male- and female-dominated rape.

Quick question...why do we consider rape a male activity? Why aren't female sporting teams doing the same thing, to reference the above example? Or are they?
It's not just rape that's considered a male activity,domestic violence is as well.A lot of men are to afraid to report it incase they are not considered "real men" whatever that is.As long as men are seen as the dominant sex things will never change.

[counterblast]

Plus I would argue that young people having careless sex, even if consensual, raises problems of diseases, unwanted pregnancy and so on. So it might be a good thing to suggest that people at that kind of age don't get involved in this kind of stuff, from a public health perspective...

But regulating sexual encounters solely because someone is "young", is patronizing at best -- completely ageist at worst.

Diseases and unwanted pregnancy happen pretty irregardless of age. And the myth that teens are hyper-promiscuous or more likely than adults to be sexually active, seems to be more rooted in the social taboo of youth sexuality (and the trivialization/silencing of young people in Western society in general) than any scientific research.

[Obzervi]

I agree that this is disturbing, but I would like to see more details about the case before I come to a conclusion. The term rape can encompass a wide variety of situations. If this was at a rave it would come as no surprise if the perpetrators and the girl were on drugs, which would have impaired their judgment. On a slightly related note, its all too common for reactionaries to criminalize expressions of youth sexuality.


To be honest, I might suggest that, even if this 'alleged' rape were to be proven to be a 'harlot' (sorry!) crying wolf...well, that doesn't make it any better. Why the hell would kids get involved in this kind of stuff, consensually or otherwise? Sure, it's worse if a bunch of guys take a young girl by force, but it's hardly good if they do it with her permission. There's something seriously skew-whiff amongst the youth today, if that's a strong enough word for the problem.

Newsflash, young people have been having sex since the beginning of time, and neither your nor anyone else with cynical puritan beliefs can change that. And what the fuck, who are you to impose your subjective views on the sexual activities of others?

[Tablo]

This is terrible to hear about. It is bad enough dealing with the emotional damage of being raped, but also having photographs shared of such a terrible experience must be devastating. :(

[Invincible Summer]

But regulating sexual encounters solely because someone is "young", is patronizing at best -- completely ageist at worst.

Diseases and unwanted pregnancy happen pretty irregardless of age. And the myth that teens are hyper-promiscuous or more likely than adults to be sexually active, seems to be more rooted in the social taboo of youth sexuality (and the trivialization/silencing of young people in Western society in general) than any scientific research.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting how the cult of youth extends until it reaches sexuality. People always want to be young, youth is glamorized, but when youth do "mature" things, the double standard rears its ugly head.


I agree that this is disturbing, but I would like to see more details about the case before I come to a conclusion. The term rape can encompass a wide variety of situations. If this was at a rave it would come as no surprise if the perpetrators and the girl were on drugs, which would have impaired their judgment.

So? How does that change anything? Your logic is on the slippery slope of justifying rape.


On a slightly related note, its all too common for reactionaries to criminalize expressions of youth sexuality.Gang rape should not be an expression of anyone's sexuality. It is a form of violence against another person.




Newsflash, young people have been having sex since the beginning of time, and neither your nor anyone else with cynical puritan beliefs can change that. And what the fuck, who are you to impose your subjective views on the sexual activities of others?Thanks for the history lesson. I'm also sure that Krimskrams was referring to gang-rape as "this kind of stuff," not sex in general.

The point is not that young people shouldn't have sex. The point is that there have been (at least in the mainstream media) an increasing number of stories involving young men gang-raping girls and no one doing anything to intervene. In this case, taking goddamned pictures to post on Facebook of all places.

[Obzervi]

I'm saying that we don't know all the details and the article is quite vague. What led to the scene? Was she being held down as she forcefully tried to resist? If she was, then I agree that this was terrible and should be penalized.

[Invincible Summer]

For those who asked for more info... there's not too much at the moment but here is a bit (and I mean a bit) more detail:

From: http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/103595--students-disgusted-with-gang-rape-case

Police say the 16-year-old victim was drugged before a half-dozen people had sex with her in a field. Mounties have arrested an 18-year-old man who could face charges of sexual assault and a 16-year-old boy in connection with the photos being posted on the Internet. Both have been released.
From: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/09/16/bc-facebook-rave-rape.html





RCMP in Pitt Meadows, B.C., are trying to stop pictures and video of half a dozen young men gang-raping a drugged 16-year-old girl from circulating on the internet, but say they are unable to stop them from spreading.
The girl was allegedly drugged with a date rape drug, possibly GHB, and sexually assaulted by five to seven men in a field outside a rave late Friday and early Saturday morning, according to RCMP Supt. Dave Walsh.







Anyways..

I'm saying that we don't know all the details and the article is quite vague. What led to the scene? Was she being held down as she forcefully tried to resist? If she was, then I agree that this was terrible and should be penalized.
So if she was not being forcefully held down, or if she was not resisting, or if she "did something to deserve it" or "led them on," then it's all kosher? That's pretty abhorrent.

[counterblast]

I'm saying that we don't know all the details and the article is quite vague. What led to the scene? Was she being held down as she forcefully tried to resist? If she was, then I agree that this was terrible and should be penalized.

Um, WHAT?

How the fuck is this relevant? If someone sexually assaults me, its pretty irrelevant whether I screamed at them to stop or if I was silent the whole time.

An absence of "no" cannot be assumed to mean "yes".

Rape apologists, die.

[Obzervi]

Plus I would argue that young people having careless sex, even if consensual, raises problems of diseases, unwanted pregnancy and so on. So it might be a good thing to suggest that people at that kind of age don't get involved in this kind of stuff, from a public health perspective...

Oh because those things can't happen to people of any age, right? More ageist BS. So tell me, how would you enforce your view. Would you criminalize young people engaging in sex? One of the tenets of leftism is sexual freedom.

[#FF0000]

Generally if someone claims they were raped, you don't second guess them unless you have some hella good evidence that it's not true.


The term rape can encompass a wide variety of situations. If this was at a rave it would come as no surprise if the perpetrators and the girl were on drugs, which would have impaired their judgment.

Everyone could have been positively tripping balls and it still would have been rape if there was no consent.

[Hiero]

Why aren't female sporting teams doing the same thing, to reference the above example? Or are they?


Because woman form relationships with other woman differently then men towards other men.

What I was saying is that gang rapes are a cause of the way certian men relate to each other.

[hatzel]

Why am I getting shot down for suggesting that 16-year-olds shouldn't be raping each other, and that it's bad when 13-year-old kids have their own kids they got from some kind of drunken fling? To then leave at home with grandma, of course, because mummy and daddy have to be at school. How will I 'enforce' this...who said anything about enforcing, anyway? Tonnes of people talk about it, better sex education at a younger age, that's what we need. Because there are plenty of youngsters who are sexualised at an early age, earlier than they would have been a few generations ago. I'm just using the fact that pubescent types are already doing this kind of stuff so carelessly as a sign of the issue. Nothing to do with ageism; it just so happens to be a fact that younger people are less experienced in many fields, and we would sure as fuck hope that they're less experienced sexually. Sure, they can have all the sex they want...I'd suggest they don't get drunk beforehand, I'd suggest they use protection. Or at least have that option. Many effectively don't at the moment, because they don't want to go out buying condoms. So why not follow in other countries' footsteps, and hand out condoms in schools, to everybody, at a suitable age. Not at 16, some have suggested as young as 11, have they not? It may not solve the problem, but it's at least a start. I think we'd all agree that it would be a real shame if young people got whatever disease, or even pregnant, through effective ignorance, rather than just not being vigilant enough (which is the case for the somewhat older). And that's just talking about merely having sex, not raping each other, not taking pictures, not doing anything else like that. I don't think it's too controversial to suggest that children of all people shouldn't rape each other, and maybe if a picture would be classed as child pornography, it shouldn't be taken. Even willingly, because you never know where that picture might end up. Not that I care if some 15-year-old girls takes a picture for her boyfriend and he just posts it online for all and sundry to ogle at, I'm just suggesting that we might want to be slightly concerned if they do so. Because if we're pretending that a 15-year-old and a 25-year-old can be considered as the same sexual being...well, then we'd have to abolish all paedophilia and child pornography laws. As child pornography seems to have been brought up in this article, it seems that there's a good reason to believe that such rules, and such distinction between child and adult in the sexual sphere, is far from offensive...no more ageist than paedophilia laws, and no more puritan than anti-rape laws. There's a little difference, in my mind, between sexual freedom and complete disengagement from all sexual affairs. Seems to me as though we're pretty happy to find some middle ground between the two. Which is what I was suggesting.

[Obzervi]

Um, WHAT?

How the fuck is this relevant? If someone sexually assaults me, its pretty irrelevant whether I screamed at them to stop or if I was silent the whole time.

An absence of "no" cannot be assumed to mean "yes".

Rape apologists, die.

After reading more details I agree that this was probably rape because the girl was drugged. But my point was that its not always black and white, there are often shades of grey. Girls are being sexualized from younger ages now and many feel pressure not to appear "prudish" when a male pushes for sex. At the same time they don't want to be considered a "slut", so even though deep down they might want to accept a male's advances they will feign token resistance. In these cases its hard to determine whether the action was rape or not, if the female regrets it afterwards for example.

[cska]

After reading more details I agree that this was probably rape because the girl was drugged. But my point was that its not always black and white, there are often shades of grey. Girls are being sexualized from younger ages now and many feel pressure not to appear "prudish" when a male pushes for sex. At the same time they don't want to be considered a "slut", so even though deep down they might want to accept a male's advances they will feign token resistance. In these cases its hard to determine whether the action was rape or not, if the female regrets it afterwards for example.

If she feigns token resistance, to hell with her. Don't have sex. It is that simple. Hell, what's even simpler is to ask, "do you want to have sex with me?"

[GreenCommunism]

Plus, I've noticed it's a trend to annotate rape cases with "alleged," as if the woman is not trustworthy. What the fuck is up with that?

i agree that there is a problem with this, however, recently there was a 'alleged terrorist cell' in canada and so many newspaper did not even use alleged, then an anti-terrorist and islamophobic hysteria got hold of all newspapers, there isn't even any proof yet but it's considered 100% certain that it happened.

so i prefer that they use alleged, apparently rape has a false reporting rate equal to all other crimes, so i think there should be some caution. albeit i strongly agrees that even when proven in court, there is still too many people doubting the victims, just like there is alot of people who accuse a man who was declared not guilty. rape as a criminal issue is full of bullshit and to me shows how prevention and fighting social stratification as well as gender seperatism is much more effective than repression, while it may also have it's use.

i think that people who defended gang bangs were talking about gang sex, it's not wrong if everyone consent, just like so many movies talk about a man sleeping with 2 woman in an encounter, there would be nothing wrong with 2 man sleeping with a woman as long as all are safe, consent et enjoy the experience.


Because woman form relationships with other woman differently then men towards other men.

What I was saying is that gang rapes are a cause of the way certian men relate to each other.

i disagree, every human form relationship with others the same way, if it is different then it is about society. what you are talking about is the complicity in crime, which would happen whether you are killing somebody or stealing from a supermarket. it is the same kind of brotherhood formed in a military for example.

[Adi Shankara]

I wonder where the parents were in all this. Wouldn't surprise me that they probably had zero clue at all where their children were.

[hatzel]

Well, I think that if the parents knew their kids were drugged up to the eyeballs, getting raped and photographed / raping and photographing, and they were perfectly fine with that, then I guess it's no wonder they have these problems :rolleyes:

[Hiero]

After reading more details I agree that this was probably rape because the girl was drugged. But my point was that its not always black and white, there are often shades of grey. Girls are being sexualized from younger ages now and many feel pressure not to appear "prudish" when a male pushes for sex. At the same time they don't want to be considered a "slut", so even though deep down they might want to accept a male's advances they will feign token resistance. In these cases its hard to determine whether the action was rape or not, if the female regrets it afterwards for example.


And how would you know this?

Have you gone out and experienced this in a such a wide demographic of young girls that you an honsetly make this statement? Or have you done a wide ethnographic study to confirm this?

This is just your own individual and culturally/idealogically influence reading of other individual interactions between young males and young females. Unless you have either conductd one of the above mentioned ways of determing this then you can not with any honesty say that this is the case.

To me and this may not be the case, my reading of what you just said is this your own explanation of why youth engage in sexual relationships. Your reading is deaply based on patriachy and deeply focused on woman sexuality which is a mystified area, it is an unknown arena. To you woman are turned into "sluts" against their will, yet they strive to be the males object of desire so they"feign resistance" to meet this contradiction between "slut" and virginity. Your saying "they shouldn't want it, but the really do want, yet they want to show they don't want it".

There are multiple reasons as to why young people engage in sex and your just going to have accept that alot of these acts are consensual for both partners.

[GreenCommunism]

I wonder where the parents were in all this. Wouldn't surprise me that they probably had zero clue at all where their children were.

when i was 16 year old i was allowed out of the house without their presence.

[LC89]

Though I'm oppose execution. I think these guys should be gunned. They're way too sick to be fix.