Whats your view on The Venus Project?

[EvilRedGuy]

They seem to be an Anarcho-Communist movement even if they themself deny it. I think. Their goals are the same as ours only the ways of achieving it is different

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And here I was thinking that the Venus Project was a form of Technocracy with better PR.

In any case, I took a brief look at their website (http://www.thevenusproject.com/) - very shiny.

Dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxists may pour scorn upon them, but I think such movements can be very important in alerting people to the fact that there can be an alternative to the capitalist price system. It helps immensely that they lack the huge amount of historical baggage that follows around Marxist, and to a lesser degree, anarchist movements and tendencies.

[EvilRedGuy]

They do allso resemble an Technocrat movement, yes.

They think that the capitalist system will fall down evolutionary, which may be right to some limits but its not enough to hope on that.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

They do allso resemble an Technocrat movement, yes.

They think that the capitalist system will fall down evolutionary, which may be right to some limits but its not enough to hope on that.

Indeed. Thankfully, the Venus Project have kept the Technocratic tradition of not getting involved in bourgeois politics, if their "what you can do" (http://www.thevenusproject.com/get-involved/what-you-can-do) page is anything to go by. A refreshing lack of parliamentary cretinism.

[PilesOfDeadNazis]

I don't see anything wrong with the Venus Project, but isn't it closely related to the Zeitgeist film? If so, I don't know how well a movement can do when it has paranoid conspiracy theories in it's foundations.

However, the whole concept is very interesting to say the least. That is, if it's something to be take seriously and not just an old guy trying to be recognized for his model-building expertise.

And the movement probably does have some followers who are anti-Communist from ignorance. So it could be a way to get people to work for a classless society without using such scary terms as Communist and/or Anarchist.

I say all of this, but I haven't even looked at the website in over a year, so my views on it might have changed. I'm just going by vague memory.

[chegitz guevara]

They are nutjobs and very likely a cult. They are the folks behind the Zeitgeist movies.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't see anything wrong with the Venus Project, but isn't it closely related to the Zeitgeist film? If so, I don't know how well a movement can do when it has paranoid conspiracy theories in it's foundations.

I've seen Zeitgeist Addendum. To be perfectly honest the film would have been much better without the conspiracy bullshit. That's my one major gripe with the Venus Project so far; they need to choose better bedfellows than people who think the Bilderbergers or the Trilateral Commission control everything. It just felt completely tacked on and unnecessary.


However, the whole concept is very interesting to say the least. That is, if it's something to be take seriously and not just an old guy trying to be recognized for his model-building expertise.

They appear to be quite serious.


And the movement probably does have some followers who are anti-Communist from ignorance. So it could be a way to get people to work for a classless society without using such scary terms as Communist and/or Anarchist.

I say all of this, but I haven't even looked at the website in over a year, so my views on it might have changed. I'm just going by vague memory.

Well, check out the links I provided; they have a forum, which could serve as a gauge of the kind of people in the movement.

[iwwforever]

A lot needs to happen before a worldwide Venus Project can be reality. But they are definately proving that a better world is possible.

Even the racoons are happier in Venus, FL :)

[RadioRaheem84]

I am weary of many non-leftist (Marxist, Anarchist, socialist) groups. Not to say there aren't nut jobs on our end *cough* Bob Avakian, but it seems like philosophically the world has spiraled into a delusional stage where almost anything is the problem except for capitalism; which happens to be the big fucking elephant in the room. A lack of a Marxist/Leftist perspective has really made these groups think of anything and everything as the problem from environmentalism, religion, corporate control (in defense of smaller business), government, conspiracies, etc.

I just do not trust many outside groups. I will look into Venus but I am not holding my breath.

Heck, does it not scare you guys that it even affects those who run society? I think of Sam Huntington, The Neo Con group and the German press that blamed the Greek Crisis on the Greek Character. Avoiding capitalism as the main fault for systemic crisis has really made people bonkers!

[Dave B]

I think the problem with Zeitgeist Movement is their attitude to democracy.


Their view is that society and production will be run in an 'objective scientific way', decided by a technocratic scientific "elite" for the good of the whole of society; a governance or administration that will not embrace the entire population or the ‘proletariat’ ;

There is a film on the link below where they discuss democracy starting about
1;13


Zeitgeist Movement Activist and Orientation Guide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngs-tOybJc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngs-tOybJc)

In that respect as regards the idea that only those with special knowledge can or should or whatever, make the ultimate decisions it does not in fact differ from Leninism, or probably what they mistakenly understand as ‘communism’.


In Leninism the justification is that the elite understand things in a kind of sociological way or as Lenin put it the ‘historical processes as a whole’, whilst for technocracy the scientists holds sway.

Burhman the ex Leninist and Trot theoretician commented on the subject at a time when the technocratic movement was beginning to find its voice and demanding its place in the brave new world.

However he considered that technocracy, Leninism and fascism where just different expressions of the same thing; self serving 'paternalistic' elitism;


"Both communism (Leninism) and fascism claim, as do all the great social ideologies to speak for the people as a whole for the future of mankind. However it is interesting to notice that both provide even in their public words for an elite or vanguard. The elite is of course the managers and their political associates the rulers of the new society.

Naturally the ideologies do not put it this way. As they say it the elite represents, stands for, the people as a whole and their interests. Fascism is more blunt about the need for the elite, for `leadership'. Leninism worked out a more elaborate rationalisation. The masses according to Leninism are unable to become sufficiently educated and trained under capitalism to carry in their own immediate persons the burdens of socialism

The mases are unable to understand in full what their interests are. Consequently, the transition to socialism will have to be supervised by an enlightened vanguard which `understands the historic process as a whole' and can ably and correctly act for the interests of the masses as a whole; like as Lenin puts it, the general staff of an
army.

Through this notion of an elite or vanguard, these ideologies thus serve at once the two fold need of justifying the existence of a ruling class and at the same time providing the masses with anattitude making easy the acceptance of its rule.

This device is similar to that used by the capitalist ideologies when they argued that capitalist were necessary in order to carry on business and that profits for capitalists were identical with prosperity for the people as a whole…………….The communist and fascist doctrine is a device, and an effective one, for enlisting the support of the masses for the interests of the new elite through an apparent identification of those interests with the interests of the masses themselves."


Managerial Revolution,Chapter 13.

The idea goes back to Rousseau and I think the best summary of the idea of the social contract eg;

In the Ideal Household of the Wolmar's in `La Nouvelle Heloise';



`There is never either sullenness or discontent in obedience because there is neither haughtiness nor capriciousness in the command (of the master). Because nothing is demanded which is not reasonable or expedient, and because the master and mistress sufficiently respect the dignity of man, even though he is a servant, so as to employ him
only with things that do not debase him."

"the servants know well that there most assured fortune is attached to that of their master and that they will never want for anything as long as the house is seen to prosper. In serving it, therefore, they are taking care of their own patrimony and increasing it by making their service agreeable; this is to their greatest self interest."




Letter X-to Lord Bomston


Like we are going to fall for it one more time, trust us we are enlightened Rousseauerian’s, ‘Marxists’ or now technocrats!

[Invincible Summer]

I thought the Venus Project to be quite promising until I read the forums... most people involved in TVP seem to also be into conspiracy and whatnot

[Os Cangaceiros]

utopian socialism for the new millenium.

[Ovi]

The Venus project always seemed to me what socialists should strive for, integration of all human activities in our living spaces, instead of the capitalist divide between working, shopping and leisure. I think that a society made by socialists would be completely different in and out from one made in capitalism (whether market capitalism and state capitalism) in that it would be designed to directly fulfill human needs rather than profits or bureaucratic plans. That's why I agree that modern society is inherently bourgeois because it was designed in a hierarchical society on hierarchical premises. However that doesn't mean we can't abolish capitalism by revolutionary means, but that we need to move away from these premises by rethinking everything we took as granted and build a new world, rather than try to reform the present society to something better. I don't know much about technocracy nor the zeitgeist movement though.

[Dimentio]

I don't see anything wrong with the Venus Project, but isn't it closely related to the Zeitgeist film? If so, I don't know how well a movement can do when it has paranoid conspiracy theories in it's foundations.

However, the whole concept is very interesting to say the least. That is, if it's something to be take seriously and not just an old guy trying to be recognized for his model-building expertise.

And the movement probably does have some followers who are anti-Communist from ignorance. So it could be a way to get people to work for a classless society without using such scary terms as Communist and/or Anarchist.

I say all of this, but I haven't even looked at the website in over a year, so my views on it might have changed. I'm just going by vague memory.

I have personally met both Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows, and believe me, they do not view themselves as a part of the Zeitgeist Movement and are very critical to some aspects of Zeitgeist, namely conspiratism. Jacque's philosophy is a bit akin to da Vinci's. He have amongst other things travelled to Haiti (in the 1970's) to try to get permission to help the communities there get better sanitation (but the then Haitian government wanted him to pay them for allowing him to do that).

He would talk to anyone willing to listen to him and help anyone willing to accept his help. Somewhat naïve.

I would say that their main problem is the "Phoenix theory" and their idealist theories about how human beings act. Otherwise, they are awesome human beings and have awesome ideas.

I have met lots and lots of zeitgeisters too. Very loving and hugging people, but generally quite inexperienced with organisation.

[chegitz guevara]

In Leninism the justification is that the elite understand things in a kind of sociological way or as Lenin put it the ‘historical processes as a whole’, whilst for technocracy the scientists holds sway.

No, that is not in Leninism. That is in caricatures of Leninism.

[L.A.P.]

I believe the Zeitgeist Movement (in regards to the movie not the film) is a more naive and optimistic version of Socialism/Communism/Marxism and Anarchism and I think they could pretty good friends when it come to Leftist causes.:thumbup1:

[Leo]

They think that the capitalist system will fall down evolutionary, which may be right to some limits but its not enough to hope on that.

There is nothing new in this view - it is simply the old revisionism of social democracy sold in a new, technocratic bottle as it seems.

[Magón]

Does anyone else get a weird feeling/resemblance to Aldous Huxley's Brave New World? I do, the pictures and images are nice, but reading their stuff gives me a strange Brave New World feeling.

[Amphictyonis]

Tolstoy meets engineering? These people are not really anything but naive and ignorant wack jobs who don't understand capitalism or socialism (the "leaders"). Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco are idiots. Like most technocracy people they aren't even engineers.

All they've done is combined a bunch of right wing conspiracy theories with some early writings of socialists. I wouldn't criticize their intentions but, in my opinion, the Zeitgeist movement appeals to the less informed (but well meaning). I look forward to making fun of the new "film" coming out in October.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Does anyone else get a weird feeling/resemblance to Aldous Huxley's Brave New World? I do, the pictures and images are nice, but reading their stuff gives me a strange Brave New World feeling.

Could you provide a link to the page which states that they intend to genetically diverge human society into various grades of intelligence? Because I must have missed that.

Statements like the above are why I suspect that most leftist/Marxist hostility to technocracy isn't based on reasonable objections, but is simply an uninformed response to something unfamiliar.


Tolstoy meets engineering? These people are not really anything but naive and ignorant wack jobs who don't understand capitalism or socialism (the "leaders"). Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco are idiots. Like most technocracy people they aren't even engineers.

Ad hominem which doesn't actually criticise their ideas. Baldly stating "they don't understand capitalism or socialism" is a statement of opinion, not an argument.


All they've done is combined a bunch of right wing conspiracy theories with some early writings of socialists.

The conspiracy shit is all to do with the Zeitgeist Movement. The Venus Project doesn't need conspiracies, in fact Dimentio mentioned in this very thread that conspiracism is one of Fresco and Meadows' major criticisms of the movement.

[Magón]

Could you provide a link to the page which states that they intend to genetically diverge human society into various grades of intelligence? Because I must have missed that.

Statements like the above are why I suspect that most leftist/Marxist hostility to technocracy isn't based on reasonable objections, but is simply an uninformed response to something unfamiliar.

First, what makes you think I'm hostile to technocracy? I've never said on here, anything about technocracy, or my ideas on the matter of it. Second, I didn't necessarily mean the book's dealings with genetic tampering, I just meant the feel of the book's society, the way people are in the book. The pictures on the site just kind of reminded me of that, or what I pictured the world to sort of be like in Brave New World. I have no problems with what they're doing, (Venus Project) they can do what they like, I'm not trying to get in their way, I'm just making my own personal observational opinion on their site and how it made me feel. The thread is titled Whats your views on The Venus Project? And that's what my views are on it, a sort of Brave New World feel, minus the genetic tampering since I don't know that they'd do that sort of thing if they actually got one of these societies running.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

First, what makes you think I'm hostile to technocracy? I've never said on here, anything about technocracy, or my ideas on the matter of it.

I apologise, but you would probably have the same reaction if people repeatedly misrepresented something you hold to.


Second, I didn't necessarily mean the book's dealings with genetic tampering, I just meant the feel of the book's society, the way people are in the book. The pictures on the site just kind of reminded me of that, or what I pictured the world to sort of be like in Brave New World.

I appreciate that, I just don't understand why. I've never got the impression that the Venus Project wanted to achieve anything like the society depicted in Brave New World. The architecture of the buildings depicted certainly doesn't suggest anything like that to me. Perhaps you could elaborate?


I have no problems with what they're doing, (Venus Project) they can do what they like, I'm not trying to get in their way, I'm just making my own personal observational opinion on their site and how it made me feel. The thread is titled Whats your views on The Venus Project? And that's what my views are on it, a sort of Brave New World feel, minus the genetic tampering since I don't know that they'd do that sort of thing if they actually got one of these societies running.

This essay (http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/essay) by one of the founders of the Venus Project should prove enlightening.

[28350]

First off, I'd like to say that I am neither a luddite nor a technocrat.
I support the invention of technologies that improve the lives of the international proletariat, humanity, and all life.
Much (if not most) technology nowadays most definitely does not lie in that category.

This Venus Project sounds very nice and all, but ultimately they're utopian socialists, hiding under the guise of science. They want a moneyless, stateless society (which they refuse to call communism), without recognizing class struggle. They don't even claim that class struggle is inherently in the favor of the working-class and as such capitalism will evolve into Venusism, as reformists do.

[anticap]

I am neither a luddite nor a technocrat.

I am both.

No but seriously, for me the most fascinating aspect of the Venus Project is speculating as to whether Fresco and Meadows are an item.

[ckaihatsu]

Venusism


Saturnist, myself.


= D

[ckaihatsu]

"Both communism (Leninism) and fascism claim, as do all the great social ideologies to speak for the people as a whole for the future of mankind. However it is interesting to notice that both provide even in their public words for an elite or vanguard. The elite is of course the managers and their political associates the rulers of the new society.

Naturally the ideologies do not put it this way. As they say it the elite represents, stands for, the people as a whole and their interests. Fascism is more blunt about the need for the elite, for `leadership'. Leninism worked out a more elaborate rationalisation. The masses according to Leninism are unable to become sufficiently educated and trained under capitalism to carry in their own immediate persons the burdens of socialism

The mases are unable to understand in full what their interests are. Consequently, the transition to socialism will have to be supervised by an enlightened vanguard which `understands the historic process as a whole' and can ably and correctly act for the interests of the masses as a whole; like as Lenin puts it, the general staff of an
army.

Through this notion of an elite or vanguard, these ideologies thus serve at once the two fold need of justifying the existence of a ruling class and at the same time providing the masses with anattitude making easy the acceptance of its rule.

This device is similar to that used by the capitalist ideologies when they argued that capitalist were necessary in order to carry on business and that profits for capitalists were identical with prosperity for the people as a whole…………….The communist and fascist doctrine is a device, and an effective one, for enlisting the support of the masses for the interests of the new elite through an apparent identification of those interests with the interests of the masses themselves."


It's incredible how they can pretend to exist in some wholly neutral off-planet viewing booth and conflate all historical ideologies together as if each one simply had its turn at a bad day on the playground at school...(!)

Really, by focusing only on the factor of political "leadership" and ignoring the developments of material economic forces they're oversimplifying politics and history incredibly -- they must fear the halls of academia like a whole neighborhood of haunted houses...!

[Amphictyonis]

Could you provide a link to the page which states that they intend to genetically diverge human society into various grades of intelligence? Because I must have missed that.

Statements like the above are why I suspect that most leftist/Marxist hostility to technocracy isn't based on reasonable objections, but is simply an uninformed response to something unfamiliar.



Ad hominem which doesn't actually criticise their ideas. Baldly stating "they don't understand capitalism or socialism" is a statement of opinion, not an argument.



The conspiracy shit is all to do with the Zeitgeist Movement. The Venus Project doesn't need conspiracies, in fact Dimentio mentioned in this very thread that conspiracism is one of Fresco and Meadows' major criticisms of the movement.

Well, I wasn't aware I was in a debate. I was stating my opinion but if you want to discuss this we can start with their opinion that capitalism will just wither away on it's own. That fact alone tell's me they don't understand capitalism. Just as Tolstoy didn't understand capitalism. I don't think Tolstoy was a total bastard for this, just misguided.



Could you provide a link to the page which states that they intend to genetically diverge human society into various grades of intelligence?

Meritocracy without direct democracy is setting the stage for a rather 'Huxleyan' environment. A new class system based on "merit".

[Dimentio]

Tolstoy meets engineering? These people are not really anything but naive and ignorant wack jobs who don't understand capitalism or socialism (the "leaders"). Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco are idiots. Like most technocracy people they aren't even engineers.

All they've done is combined a bunch of right wing conspiracy theories with some early writings of socialists. I wouldn't criticize their intentions but, in my opinion, the Zeitgeist movement appeals to the less informed (but well meaning). I look forward to making fun of the new "film" coming out in October.

I see them rolling, I see them trolling...

[Q]

When I read articles like these (http://www.thevenusproject.com/technology/city-systems) or these (http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy), I can only think one fitting term for this: communism.

I view the Venus Project as a creative way about communist future and as such I think we should embrace it and tell workers what can be done. They do seem naive or lack a view of how to get to communist society though and for that reason I think the term "utopian socialists" as someone mentioned it, is fitting.

Communists however often seem to be concrete and realistic about the need for revolution, but naive or lack a vision of what communist society should look like. Not exactly in blueprint form, but exactly painting a vision such as the Venus Project does.

We don't necessarily exclude eachother, but complement oneanother.

[Dimentio]

Well, I wasn't aware I was in a debate. I was stating my opinion but if you want to discuss this we can start with their opinion that capitalism will just wither away on it's own. That fact alone tell's me they don't understand capitalism. Just as Tolstoy didn't understand capitalism. I don't think Tolstoy was a total bastard for this, just misguided.

Meritocracy without direct democracy is setting the stage for a rather 'Huxleyan' environment. A new class system based on "merit".

If capitalism dies by "withering away", hundreds of millions of people will wither away too, and society will rather regress than progress. That would most likely happen in the later half of this century if not a radical break is made.

[graymouser]

The whole thing smells quite a bit like a cult to me, and honestly I think that's as far as it could ever go - a small, utopian cult around some "visionary" ideas. That makes sense of the conspiracy mongering angle of it as well. It might have some "communist" sounding ideas if you interpret it the wrong way - but hell, it'd hardly be the first cult you could say that about. I don't know why people here give this stuff so much credibility.

[ckaihatsu]

I don't know why people here give this stuff so much credibility.


It's the awesome graphics. And also because we'd apparently automatically all live in the tropics.


x D





If capitalism dies by "withering away", hundreds of millions of people will wither away too


Um, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???

Are hundreds of millions so existentially invested in the economic system that they'll "wither away" along with it -- ??? (Or jump out of skyscraper windows en masse as the markets plummet -- ?)

[Reznov]

It's the awesome graphics. And also because we'd apparently automatically all live in the tropics.


x D





Um, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???

Are hundreds of millions so existentially invested in the economic system that they'll "wither away" along with it -- ??? (Or jump out of skyscraper windows en masse as the markets plummet -- ?)

You know, you got me wondering how the wealthy would react to something like this happening.

[ckaihatsu]

You know, you got me wondering how the wealthy would react to something like this happening.


Um, which part? The mass exodus to retro-'60s-mod-style buildings in the tropics, or the withering away of bodies that have come in contact with the hard concrete after a long fall? Either way, your answer is:

Facepalm. (Now with laptop!)


http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/brice42/Blank-Facepalm.gif

[Dimentio]

The whole thing smells quite a bit like a cult to me, and honestly I think that's as far as it could ever go - a small, utopian cult around some "visionary" ideas. That makes sense of the conspiracy mongering angle of it as well. It might have some "communist" sounding ideas if you interpret it the wrong way - but hell, it'd hardly be the first cult you could say that about. I don't know why people here give this stuff so much credibility.

If it is a cult, then it sure has thousands of members with quite disparate opinions.

[Dimentio]

Um, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???

Are hundreds of millions so existentially invested in the economic system that they'll "wither away" along with it -- ??? (Or jump out of skyscraper windows en masse as the markets plummet -- ?)

Hundreds of millions will die because of environmental disasters, migrations, ethnic warfare and a deterioration of human standards of life if capitalism is collapsing by itself.

[EvilRedGuy]

I odn't get all the bashing on The Venus Project. And what personality cult is there? None!

[anticap]

I odn't get all the bashing on The Venus Project.

I assumed from the outset that the bashing ultimately boiled down to resentment on the part of the basher over the loss of potential recruits for their own tendency.

[ckaihatsu]

Retirement and jai alai do *not* for revolutionaries make.

[Dimentio]

I assumed from the outset that the bashing ultimately boiled down to resentment on the part of the basher over the loss of potential recruits for their own tendency.

That is soooo 20th century.

In the new age, we cooperate between organisations, forming networks. We don't compete.

[Peace on Earth]

It sounds interesting. I don't see anything Brave New World-esque or cultish. And neither do I resent them for not calling themselves communist. As if we can only work with people who wear I <3 Marx t-shirts and recite the manifesto. They are working towards a better (and damn sweet looking) future (where bad weather never happens), which is something we all should get behind. It doesn't mean we need to dedicate our lives to the Venus project, but opposing it because they differ on certain opinions or viewpoints is silly.

[ckaihatsu]

The concern from a revolutionary leftist point of view is along similar lines to concerns raised about "technocracy" in general -- there's an active thread on that:








[W]e (EOS) intend to interact with the public, giving them very real (material) incitaments to support us, for example by giving food to homeless people or establish tenements with lower costs for those who are active supporters for us, etc...





Translation: As capitalism continues its downslide into a civilizational collapse, bringing about a new Dark Ages, Technocracy will be there in a franchised fiefdom kind of way, bringing a cultish clientelism to the masses. The stuff you need and want will be fairly available and easy to get, but you'll have to be at least as cool as Obama to have any chance of being "in".

(Note: This is also the plotline of about 4,382,091 techno-post-apocalyptic movies out there -- Akira, Tekken, etc.)

[Amphictyonis]

I see them rolling, I see them trolling...

How am I trolling when the thread asks what our opinion of the Venus Project is? I gave my opinion. Tolstoy meets the Jetsons. We're nowhere close to automation yet, and anyway, this is the goal of communism. I'd prefer to stick with Marxism rather than the niave ramblings of pseudo engineers. Does the head of the Venus project have credentials? Did the founder of technocracy? Mike Scott?

[Dimentio]

How am I trolling when the thread asks what our opinion of the Venus Project is? I gave my opinion. Tolstoy meets the Jetsons. We're nowhere close to automation yet, and anyway, this is the goal of communism. I'd prefer to stick with Marxism rather than the niave ramblings of pseudo engineers. Does the head of the Venus project have credentials? Did the founder of technocracy? Mike Scott?

Andrew Wallace and Mark Ciotola have strong credentials, since both have degrees within their fields, and in dr. Wallace's case, his area (systems engineering) is directly corresponding to what EOS is doing.

[Amphictyonis]

Andrew Wallace and Mark Ciotola have strong credentials, since both have degrees within their fields, and in dr. Wallace's case, his area (systems engineering) is directly corresponding to what EOS is doing.

You didn't answer my question but I'll play along- Whats Dr Wallace's and Mark Ciotola's class analysis and viewpoint on ending capitalism?

[chegitz guevara]

Retirement and jai alai do *not* for revolutionaries make.

I beg to differ.

[ckaihatsu]

I beg to differ.


No need to beg.


= )

[Magón]

Well we can't call them Communists or Socialists, Jacque said in the London Lecture video on their site, both have come to fail, etc. (It's the London Lecture Q/A video if you're interested.)

[∞]

Honestly, I can't get myself to care about the venus project.

[anticap]

Well we can't call them Communists or Socialists, Jacque said in the London Lecture video on their site, both have come to fail, etc. (It's the London Lecture Q/A video if you're interested.)

Ask him to describe the lifestyle he led while he lived on that tropical island among the natives in the Caribbean, or wherever it was, and I bet it'll sound vaguely communist.

[Magón]

Ask him to describe the lifestyle he led while he lived on that tropical island among the natives in the Caribbean, or wherever it was, and I bet it'll sound vaguely communist.

That's too Utopian for Jacque! :lol:

[anticap]

That's too Utopian for Jacque! :lol:

No seriously I've heard him talk about it. The things he admired about the people sounded like communist traits to me.

I'm not saying he's a commie, but maybe he would be if there was no stigma attached to it.

[Dimentio]

No seriously I've heard him talk about it. The things he admired about the people sounded like communist traits to me.

I'm not saying he's a commie, but maybe he would be if there was no stigma attached to it.

In the 30's, he actually partook in marxist meetings, but politics was simply not his stuff. He was more interested in technology.

[Manic Impressive]

I enjoyed the movie and the web site isn't bad. Many in this thread have talked about conspiracy theories in the movie there is one point where they suggest that the world trade centre attack was not the work of Islamic "terrorists" which was the only time I became concerned for their sanity. In regards to the bilderburg group or NWO or whatever else you want to call it, if you don't think that the richest people in the world collude and talk about ways to increase their wealth and their power then I would say you are the uninformed or naive one.

While a lot of their message I don't agree with for instance the spirituality crap I believe it also borrows heavily from Marxism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" This concept is at the base of their politics I've also watched some lectures by Fresco in which he talks about leaving behind the old traditions of the past regarding such things as the use of language, religion etc etc.

If you find the Zeitgeist project movie not intellectual enough for you then you're right in your superior knowledge and understanding of everything :rolleyes:
but it's not designed for you, for many who have watched the movie it is their first realization of the failings of capitalism so just for that I think it's done a great job and possibly opened the eyes and made more people question the current state of the world than the communist manifesto or What is to be done has in the last 5 years.

It did always disappoint me that they never credited any communist or anarchist writings but this raises a question I have heard from other communists "is the name communism holding us back?" by "re-branding" the image of a communist or anarchist world would it make us realize the dream quicker?
I'm sure some will be horrified by that suggestion, it's not even my personal opinion but it's a question worth considering.

On the question of the technocratic heirarchy I don't think they are saying these people would be the rulers but everyone would have the chance to be educated and given the chance to become a scientist or engineer if they had the ability or inclanation to do so. They would not be reveered anymore than an artist or the farmer or anyone else for that matter.

In conclusion, have they come up with something completely new and revolutionary? NO
have they opened peoples eyes a bit?
YES

[ckaihatsu]

"Zeitgeist": Not a sign of the times, but a definite must-see documentary nonetheless

A review by Chris Kaihatsu, ck aihat [email protected] gm ail. co m, 3-31-08


http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1111197&postcount=39