German Police Raid Largest Neo Nazi Group

[Stand Your Ground]

BERLIN — Police on Tuesday raided buildings used by Germany's largest neo-Nazi group in an effort to find evidence to support banning it, the Interior Ministry said.
The sweep targeted 30 buildings and houses across the country belonging to members of the Aid Organization for National Political Victims and their Relatives, the ministry said in a statement. It declined to say how many officers were taking part in the raids in nine of the country's 16 states.
The group, known as HNG by its German acronym, is believed to have some 600 members, making it the country's largest neo-Nazi group, the ministry said.
Evidence found in the raids will show whether the HNG's work violates Germany's constitution in an "aggressive and combative" manner that could lead to a ban, Deputy Interior Minister Klaus-Dieter Fritsche said. Investigators suspect the HNG is trying to strengthen Germany's scattered far-right groups by forging alliances among the organizations, he said.
The ministry accused HNG members of keeping in contact with imprisoned neo-Nazis to strengthen the members' ideology and "encourage them to commit further crimes."
German authorities are wary of neo-Nazi groups and several of them have been banned over the past years. Denying the Holocaust and displaying Nazi symbols or otherwise glorifying them are crimes in Germany

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iBbn8vP0nRj1THlzAttmU2vKN8UgD9I328401

[NGNM85]

While this group are most likely the dregs of society, and I find that sort repulsive, I have similar feelings about the state of civil liberties in Germany.

[Adi Shankara]

While this group are most likely the dregs of society, and I find that sort repulsive, I have similar feelings about the state of civil liberties in Germany.

fuck redtape. I don't believe in civil liberties and beating around the bush for fascists. the common law legal system (I think Germany is based on it) is flawed because it rewards craftiness and lying, and manipulation of semantics. fuck that. if a crime has been committed and has been witnessed, and they are obviously neo-nazi (tattoos, modus operandi, etc.) then they need to be sentenced.

[Obs]

"Wait, do I arrest you or report to you?"

[Tatarin]

The largest? Isn't the NDP the largest nazi group in Germany?

[Reznov]

fuck redtape. I don't believe in civil liberties and beating around the bush for fascists. the common law legal system (I think Germany is based on it) is flawed because it rewards craftiness and lying, and manipulation of semantics. fuck that. if a crime has been committed and has been witnessed, and they are obviously neo-nazi (tattoos, modus operandi, etc.) then they need to be sentenced.

You know this will probably go both ways, right?

[NGNM85]

fuck redtape. I don't believe in civil liberties and beating around the bush for fascists.

That's just going to be an impasse. I'd rather not ressurect the "Free Speech' threads, as this has been covered, asd nauseum. This is a fundamental, unbridgeable philosophical difference. Although, I would just say that in taking that position you place yourself along with some very questionable company. Whatever...


the common law legal system (I think Germany is based on it) is flawed because it rewards craftiness and lying, and manipulation of semantics. fuck that. if a crime has been committed and has been witnessed, and they are obviously neo-nazi (tattoos, modus operandi, etc.) then they need to be sentenced.

The problem is that in this case the 'crime' is being a white supremacist, and owning neo-Nazi paraphenalia.

[Tablo]

Lol, can't say I feel bad for them. :lol:

[Obs]

The problem is that in this case the 'crime' is being a white supremacist,
Are you implying that's not a crime?

[NGNM85]

Are you implying that's not a crime?

In Germany, it absolutely is a crime to be a White Supremacist, or a neo-Nazi, or even to own white suprmemacist or neo-Nazi literature or paraphenalia. That's if we're talking 'crime' as 'an act comitted in violation of the law.' However, this is rather immaterial, at least, unless you consider the state to be inherently right and good in all things. The real question is; is the law morally and ethically justifiable? My answer is that is not. That this is part of a throughly backward policy of the German government regarding civil rights.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Fuck neo-nazis...as far as I'm concerned they are pieces of shit that deserve to rot inside the prisons.

"Banning nazi symbols and literature." Sounds like the germans have a solid plan.

[Adi Shankara]

That's just going to be an impasse. I'd rather not ressurect the "Free Speech' threads, as this has been covered, asd nauseum. This is a fundamental, unbridgeable philosophical difference. Although, I would just say that in taking that position you place yourself along with some very questionable company. Whatever...

and what predictable epithet are you trying to imply? I believe our western style justice system has failed completely. look at all the police acquittal rates globally, or those released on technicalities, and you can see why I have a problem with it. for example, at least in the US and UK, based on common law, there could be a video of someone murdering or raping someone, and if they have had an unfair trial, they can be acquitted. what kind've crap is that?!?




The problem is that in this case the 'crime' is being a white supremacist, and owning neo-Nazi paraphenalia.

I believe in free speech, but I don't believe owning nazi paraphenalia is exactly a freedom, as it's there to intimidate and to assign ownership to a neo-nazi group. afterall, why would anyone but a neo-nazi have tattoos of nazi swastikas and "white power" on their heads?

[NGNM85]

and what predictable epithet are you trying to imply? I believe our western style justice system has failed completely. look at all the police acquittal rates globally, or those released on technicalities, and you can see why I have a problem with it. for example, at least in the US and UK, based on common law, there could be a video of someone murdering or raping someone, and if they have had an unfair trial, they can be acquitted. what kind've crap is that?!?

I have no shortage of objections to the US legal system, however, I think we do need to have specific rules and guidelines for criminal prosecution.

My issue was with this statement; “I don't believe in civil liberties and beating around the bush for fascists.”


I believe in free speech,

It doesn’t sound like it. Recall, supporting freedom of speech means protecting people’s right to express views you hate.


but I don't believe owning nazi paraphenalia is exactly a freedom,

No less so than it should be to own socialist, or Anarchist material, at least, in my view. Also, the German laws are absurdly broad and undefined. It’s so extreme if you have historical relics from the war, you have to actually get a permit for them or you can face criminal charges. There’s also other things; they have backwards libel laws like England, as well as laws restricting the dissemination of ‘false news’, as does Canada, a leftover from English law designed to protect the King. They’re whole policy regarding speech is just backwards.


as it's there to intimidate and to assign ownership to a neo-nazi group. afterall, why would anyone but a neo-nazi have tattoos of nazi swastikas and "white power" on their heads?

Maybe, maybe not, again, it applies to much more than that. Even so, that’s no reason to lock people up. If they’re explicitly threatening people, or committing violence, then, they can go to jail. However, this amounts to ‘thoughtcrime.’

[Pavlov's House Party]

fuck redtape. I don't believe in civil liberties and beating around the bush for fascists. the common law legal system (I think Germany is based on it) is flawed because it rewards craftiness and lying, and manipulation of semantics. fuck that. if a crime has been committed and has been witnessed, and they are obviously neo-nazi (tattoos, modus operandi, etc.) then they need to be sentenced.

giving the bourgeois state that kind of power or even endorsing it as a leftist is idiotic and basically like shooting yourself in the foot. what if the german government decides it's time to round up some commies if the revolutionary situation picks up? no legal protection for them, off to jail red scum!

[bcbm]

the german state is concerned about the growth of neo-nazi groups so they raid their spaces, collect evidence and attempt to ban the groups and imprison their members.

the german state is also concerned about the rise of left-wing violence (http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/04/201042995544279317.html).

do the math and ask again whether supporting a state crackdown on any sort of dissident group is something to be cheering.

[Adi Shankara]

giving the bourgeois state that kind of power or even endorsing it as a leftist is idiotic and basically like shooting yourself in the foot. what if the german government decides it's time to round up some commies if the revolutionary situation picks up? no legal protection for them, off to jail red scum!

I wasn't considering the bourgeois state in this instance. I was thinking that more or less, the revolutionary state should be ran with a new, more efficient method of justice that doesn't have the guile of lawyers let criminals off the hook.

[Red Commissar]

German law allows its security to act against both the far-right and the far-left once it finds sufficient reason to do so. This is under the pretext of protecting the German constitution and "democracy".

The neo-nazis are scum anyways, but it won't stop the security forces for acting the same against groups on the other end of the spectrum either.

The HNG (Hilfsorganisation für nationale politische Gefangene und deren Angehörige), or "Aid Organization for National Political Victims and their Relatives" is a neo-nazi group with about 600 members whose function seems to be defending other neo-nazis which the state prosecutes, both in the "legal" and extra-judicial sense. I've seen other articles also refer to it as the "largest" neo-nazi group, I guess this is referring to its active memberbase. The NDP is more evident on the political stage but has ways of avoiding being prosecuted by the state. The HNG also seems to try and make a common cause among the far-right in all of Germany.

I suppose you could see it as a cheerleading group and a legal fund.

[bcbm]

I wasn't considering the bourgeois state in this instance. I was thinking that more or less, the revolutionary state should be ran with a new, more efficient method of justice that doesn't have the guile of lawyers let criminals off the hook.

what do you propose?

[Rusty Shackleford]

i hope there were incidences of police brutality on this one special occasion.

[Saorsa]

As much as I like the idea of fascists getting roughed up by the police, bcbm and others are right. Any laws the capitalist state can use against nazis, it can use against us too. If the swastika is a crime in the bourgeois legal system, it's only a very small step to make the hammer and sickle or the circle-A illegal as well. Many European countries have done just that.

Fascism will be beaten down through working class organisation - we should not rely on the bourgeois state to do it for us.

[meow]

As much as I like the idea of fascists getting roughed up by the police, bcbm and others are right. Any laws the capitalist state can use against nazis, it can use against us too. If the swastika is a crime in the bourgeois legal system, it's only a very small step to make the hammer and sickle or the circle-A illegal as well. Many European countries have done just that.

Fascism will be beaten down through working class organisation - we should not rely on the bourgeois state to do it for us.
can you give example of communist or anarchist symbol being illegal anywhere? because i cant think of anywhere it is so. (not to say you arent correct i just dont know where it would be.)

[Saorsa]

Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland have all banned the hammer and sickle. I don't know of anywhere that has made the circle A illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_and_sickle#Legal_status

[AK]

Another well-informed, intelligent series of posts by Tommy Sankara.

[Rakhmetov]

Kudos to the German state for this action. Now it's time to overthrow it. :cool:

[Saorsa]

Kudos to the German state for this action. Now it's time to overthrow it.

Wow, the same logic you used with the French state banning veils.

[BeerShaman]

Whatever they are, state justice is shit! I say, we need people's justice - worker justice! Let justice be just!

[BeerShaman]

Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland have all banned the hammer and sickle. I don't know of anywhere that has made the circle A illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_and_sickle#Legal_status
You know something called cold war? maybe something called market and ironical abuse of the symbols of liberty for mass enslavement?
Hope I didn't sound stupid, but you get it...

[Rakhmetov]

Wow, the same logic you used with the French state banning veils.

So what are you saying, that you don't approve of Nazis being raided and arrested??? You are going to go far with that attitude.

:confused:

[Bilan]

So what are you saying, that you don't approve of Nazis being raided and arrested??? You are going to go far with that attitude.

:confused:

You just don't get it do you.
Just like your assumption that the burqa ban is about gender, so you assume that this is also limited to just fascist groups.
This raid is just about one fascist group, yes, but this type of policing isn't.

[bricolage]

So what are you saying, that you don't approve of Nazis being raided and arrested??? You are going to go far with that attitude.
State crackdowns against the far right will inevitably be turned on the left too. Once such obvious example of this occurred in the UK last year when various groups pressured the government to ban an EDL march through Luton which then resulted in a three month ban on *all* marches taking place in the area. Thus the desire to see the state restrict far right activities ultimately ended up in an eradication of freedom of movement and assembly for all people in Luton.

It's not our place to be supporting these kind of moves, no matter how much we may enjoy seeing Neo-Nazis get kicked around, unless we want to see the same thing happen to us a bit further down the road.

[Devrim]

Of course, it was these tiny groups of German Nazis who maintained a citizenship policy 'based upon right of blood', which deprived hundreds of thousands of children of 'guest' workers born in Germany of citizenship, and enabled the state to deport them if they committed even the pettiest crime, maintained laws that prevented the reunification of families,and paid money to workers willing to leave Germany for good (repatriation bonuses, a policy the UK BNP fantasises about).

Oh no, it wasn't! That was the German state.

Devrim

[Aesop]

Of course, it was these tiny groups of German Nazis who maintained a citizenship policy 'based upon right of blood', which deprived hundreds of thousands of children of 'guest' workers born in Germany of citizenship, and enabled the state to deport them if they committed even the pettiest crime, maintained laws that prevented the reunification of families,and paid money to workers willing to leave Germany for good (repatriation bonuses, a policy the UK BNP fantasises about).

Oh no, it wasn't! That was the German state.

Devrim

No one is saying that the state is benovolent, however i fail to see the purpose of this post in negating the actions being done against these fascists.

[Saorsa]

So what are you saying, that you don't approve of Nazis being raided and arrested??? You are going to go far with that attitude.

I don't celebrate the capitalist state cracking down on small extremist political organisations it doesn't like.

I happen to be a member of one.

[Saorsa]

Oh and just for the record... organisations like the Labour Party are a much bigger threat to workers, immigrants and minorities than groups like the BNP or the HNG ever will be.

[meow]

Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland have all banned the hammer and sickle. I don't know of anywhere that has made the circle A illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_and_sickle#Legal_status
my wikipedia fu fails :(. thanks i tried to find before i posted but obviosuly im no good at it.

I don't celebrate the capitalist state cracking down on small extremist political organisations it doesn't like.

I happen to be a member of one.
this! anti terrorism laws can be used against muslims or anarchists. i too wish to destroy the state possibly using violent means. fucking state.

[Devrim]

No one is saying that the state is benovolent, however i fail to see the purpose of this post in negating the actions being done against these fascists.

My purpose was to point out that the real racist threat comes from the state and the atmosphere created by the bourgeois media, . This is a state after all that imposed policies against immigrant workers that the BNP can only fantasise about. The same is true of Britain. The Labour government deported more people than most members of the BNP probably manage to do in their wildest dreams. Yet still people go on about these marginal fascist groups.

Devrim

[Rjevan]

The largest? Isn't the NDP the largest nazi group in Germany?
I think they really mean just group here, the NPD (National Democratic Party of Germany) is a party which doesn't present itself openly neo-nazi (although it's obvious they are) because of the German law but tries to give itself the image of uniting the "national resistance", etc.

The ban on nazi symbols and items is nothing more than a joke and all it does is making "cool" schoolchildren paint swastikas on their books and desks. Anybody who really tries will easily get what he looks for, not only online but IRL, too. There are lots of loopholes, e.g. with Hitler's "Mein Kampf": it mustn't be sold but it is legal to sell it as antiquarian book as well as to possess it.

bcbm, Comrade A and Devrim are absolutely right, the German state isn't interested in getting rid of the fascists, it's interested in getting rid of "extremists" which includes us, usually named in the same sentence as nazi groups (in the best spirit of "Nazism and Communism are basically the same"). We all know what role fascism played and plays in bourgeois society, kicking some weird neo-nazi sect in the butt from time to time and outlawing symbols means nothing as long as the state basically promotes their views. Xenophobic and fascist ideas exist today in Germany and are pretty accepted to a certain degree, and that's not solely thanks to groups like the HNG or the NPD. They only reach a minority, "Bild" newspaper reaches millions every day.

[The Red Next Door]

I think they really mean just group here, the NPD (National Democratic Party of Germany) is a party which doesn't present itself openly neo-nazi (although it's obvious they are) because of the German law but tries to give itself the image of uniting the "national resistance", etc.

The ban on nazi symbols and items is nothing more than a joke and all it does is making "cool" schoolchildren paint swastikas on their books and desks. Anybody who really tries will easily get what he looks for, not only online but IRL, too. There are lots of loopholes, e.g. with Hitler's "Mein Kampf": it mustn't be sold but it is legal to sell it as antiquarian book as well as to possess it.

bcbm, Comrade A and Devrim are absolutely right, the German state isn't interested in getting rid of the fascists, it's interested in getting rid of "extremists" which includes us, usually named in the same sentence as nazi groups (in the best spirit of "Nazism and Communism are basically the same"). We all know what role fascism played and plays in bourgeois society, kicking some weird neo-nazi sect in the butt from time to time and outlawing symbols means nothing as long as the state basically promotes their views. Xenophobic and fascist ideas exist today in Germany and are pretty accepted to a certain degree, and that's not solely thanks to groups like the HNG or the NPD. They only reach a minority, "Bild" newspaper reaches millions every day.

The Blid Murder Rudi Deutschke

[Aesop]

My purpose was to point out that the real racist threat comes from the state and the atmosphere created by the bourgeois media, .

Yes, i agree. That the messages that come out of the bourgeois media does help foster racism.


This is a state after all that imposed policies against immigrant workers that the BNP can only fantasise about. The same is true of Britain. The Labour government deported more people than most members of the BNP probably manage to do in their wildest dreams. Yet still people go on about these marginal fascist groups.

yes, i acknowledge that the labour party has done this. However to put the BNP and labour party in the same box is being a ultra-left at best or at worse just helping racism in the sense as this view can be justification of the neglect of anti-fascsim.
The likes of the BNP have heavies on streetcorners and attacking reds,muslims, jews, ethnic minorites, LGBT, trade unionists, punks/hip-hoppers then i think people have the right to be considered about marginal groups. To be hones the likes of the labour/con/lib party do not partake in such actions.
So yes i find it encouraging that people are going on about these 'marginal fascist groups' ignoring them behind the rhetoric that the labour party is tens worse in is action is ultimately playing into these groups hands.

In addition fighting as fascism and capitalism is not mutually exclusive

[Devrim]

yes, i acknowledge that the labour party has done this. However to put the BNP and labour party in the same box is being a ultra-left at best or at worse just helping racism in the sense as this view can be justification of the neglect of anti-fascsim.

I don't put the in the same box. I think that the BNP is a racist party which is very marginal. I think that the Labour Party is a racist party, which has a track record of deporting immigrants, cutting off asylum seekers benefits and locking them up in camps. Things the BNP can only dream of.


The likes of the BNP have heavies on streetcorners and attacking reds,muslims, jews, ethnic minorites, LGBT, trade unionists, punks/hip-hoppers then i think people have the right to be considered about marginal groups. To be hones the likes of the labour/con/lib party do not partake in such actions.

I think a post made on this site today is a bit more realistic about the presence of the BNP on 'street corners':


SAFA activists – plus people from left-wing stalls elsewhere in the city centre – were able to quickly mobilise to confront the BNP. Around 1.45pm, a large number of anti-fascists descended on the stall, which was kicked over and the contents of it torn up or seized. With a large crowd now gathered around, the BNP were left standing beside the ruins of their stall as up to 100 onlookers and anti-fascists chanted at them. The police showed up around 15 minutes later and attempted to gain control of the situation, but in the end were forced to remove the BNP members for their own safety.

Meanwhile, the SDL were beginning to gather in The Goose pub on Union Street. They indicated that they would heading to George Square at 5.30pm, for an assembly at the Cenotaph – their full intentions were unclear. By the time the 15 SDL supporters showed up, around 100 anti-fascists and local youth were gathered in the square. A brief confrontation ensued, with one SDL supporter arrested, alongside a 14 year old, who allegedly threw a punch in the direction of the SDL.

It doesn't mention the numbers of the BNP in the thread, but if you follow the link it says there were 5 or 6 of them.

Devrim

[Sasha]

I don't put the in the same box. I think that the BNP is a racist party which is very marginal. I think that the Labour Party is a racist party, which has a track record of deporting immigrants, cutting off asylum seekers benefits and locking them up in camps. Things the BNP can only dream of.



I think a post made on this site today is a bit more realistic about the presence of the BNP on 'street corners':


SAFA activists – plus people from left-wing stalls elsewhere in the city centre – were able to quickly mobilise to confront the BNP. Around 1.45pm, a large number of anti-fascists descended on the stall, which was kicked over and the contents of it torn up or seized. With a large crowd now gathered around, the BNP were left standing beside the ruins of their stall as up to 100 onlookers and anti-fascists chanted at them. The police showed up around 15 minutes later and attempted to gain control of the situation, but in the end were forced to remove the BNP members for their own safety.

Meanwhile, the SDL were beginning to gather in The Goose pub on Union Street. They indicated that they would heading to George Square at 5.30pm, for an assembly at the Cenotaph – their full intentions were unclear. By the time the 15 SDL supporters showed up, around 100 anti-fascists and local youth were gathered in the square. A brief confrontation ensued, with one SDL supporter arrested, alongside a 14 year old, who allegedly threw a punch in the direction of the SDL.

It doesn't mention the numbers of the BNP in the thread, but if you follow the link it says there were 5 or 6 of them.

Devrim

but, and i dont know how old you where when you left engeland but i assume you even lived through these times, wouldnt you say that walking the streets as an imigrant (or queer, lefty, jew etc etc) has been, for example in the heydays of the NF, a lot more dangerous than it is today?
people getting attacke and murderd, imigrant shelters firebombs, synagoues vandalised etc etc
isnt protecting people (and not forget yourself) of this kind of danger not worth a litle bit of time from an activist?

i have friends in aken and the mere existence of the organised nazi groups there makes it almost impossible to organise as an leftist. bombs at the youth center, people ambushed, 1st of may marches attacked.

i retain, anti-fascism is self defence

[Devrim]

but, and i dont know how old you where when you left engeland

I moved to England in the 70s and left in the 90s.


but i assume you even lived through these times, wouldnt you say that walking the streets as an imigrant (or queer, lefty, jew etc etc) has been, for example in the heydays of the NF, a lot more dangerous than it is today?

It is difficult for me to compare it with today. I haven't been there for two years, and have spent less than a month's total time there in the last 15. Let's say yes though for the sake of the discussion. If it was, I would say it was more down to the general levels of racism existing in society. I'd imagine that alot of the racist violence in society is not directly connected to organised racist groups.


i retain, anti-fascism is self defence

I don't say that people should never defend themselves against fascists. There are times when communist militants have to do it. There is also a danger of things degenerating in to fights between rival street gangs completely unconnected to anything to do with class politics.

What I was trying to point out in this thread though is that the real racist threat comes from the state, and that the very German state that is arresting these fascists today is exactly the same state that implemented racist policies, such as paying foreign workers to be 'repatriated', that groups like the BNP can only suggest.

Devrim