I Support A Law That Would Require Annual Medical Checks 4 All Girls from High Risk C

[Rakhmetov]

Obligatory annual medical checks for all uncircumcised girls, who originate from any country where female mutilation is practiced. Female medical professionals would do the screening. Any girl found to be mutilated will have their guardian(s) severely punished and the child become ward of the state. :thumbup1:

[Prometheus Unbound]

What a stupid, not to mention racist, idea

[Sasha]

you do know that female circumsision has nothing to do with islam right?
its an cultural practice predating the arival of islam in these african countrys and also practised by traditional and christian religous groups in these countrys.
arabic and asian muslims find the practise as horific as you.

so please be so kind to change your thread title to " i Support A Law That Would Require Annual Medical Checks 4 All Girls from high risk countrys"

if not i whil trash this thread for inciting discrimination

[Rakhmetov]

you do know that female circumsision has nothing to do with islam right?
its an cultural practice predating the arival of islam in these african countrys and also practised by traditional and christian religous groups in these countrys.
arabic and asian muslims find the practise as horific as you.

so please be so kind to change your thread title to " i Support A Law That Would Require Annual Medical Checks 4 All Girls from high risk countrys"

if not i whil trash this thread for inciting discrimination

I'm not a Christan but to be fair to that religion on this issue:

FGC has never been part of Christianity as a faith system. There are no scriptural or doctrinal documents existing within the larger Christian tradition that even address the issue. The only contemporary examples of Christians practicing FGC are in Africa. As FGC rituals predated the missionaries work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of cultural tradition, unrelated to religious belief.[citati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_cutting#Christia nity

[Prometheus Unbound]

you do know that female circumsision has nothing to do with islam right?
its an cultural practice predating the arival of islam in these african countrys and also practised by traditional and christian religous groups in these countrys.
arabic and asian muslims find the practise as horific as you.

so please be so kind to change your thread title to " i Support A Law That Would Require Annual Medical Checks 4 All Girls from high risk countrys"

if not i whil trash this thread for inciting discrimination

What makes you think saying " i Support A Law That Would Require Annual Medical Checks 4 All Girls from high risk countrys" isn't inciting discrimination too?

[Rakhmetov]

What a stupid, not to mention racist, idea


How is it racist??? There are plenty of white Muslims.

[KC]

This is a troll. Why isn't he banned?

[Devrim]

Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic practice. It is an African practice. In the country where it is most common Egypt, it has been condemned by Sheikh Ali Goma the Grand Mufti (the highest authority in Islam in Egypt) in a fatwa:


In the name of God the all merciful

The international conference of scholars concerning a ban on abuse of the female body was held on 1st and 2nd Du al-Qi’dah 1427 of the Hijri, corresponding to the 22nd and 23rd November 2006, in the conference facilities at Al-Azhar University. An array of research work was presented. Once scientists, Islamic scholars, experts and activists from civil rights organisations in Egypt, Europe and Africa had been heard, the following recommendations were issued:


God gave people dignity. In the Qur’an God says: “We have dignified the sons of Adam”. Therefore, God forbids any harm coming to man, irrespective of social status and gender.
Genital circumcision is a deplorable, inherited custom, which is practiced in some societies and is copied by some Muslims in several countries. There are no written grounds for this custom in the Qur’an with regard to an authentic tradition of the Prophet.
The female genital circumcision practiced today harms women psychologically and physically. Therefore, the practice must be stopped in support of one of the highest values of Islam, namely to do no harm to another – in accordance with the commandment of the Prophet Mohammed “Accept no harm and do no harm to another”. Moreover, this is seen as punishable aggression against humankind.
The conference calls on Muslims to end this deplorable custom in accordance with the teachings of Islam, which forbid injuring another in any form.
The participants of the conference also called on international and religious institutions and establishments to concentrate their efforts on educating and instructing the population. This concerns particularly the basic rules of hygienic and medicine, which must be maintained for women so that this deplorable custom is no longer practiced.
The conference reminds the educational establishments and the media that they have an implicit duty to educate about the harm this custom brings and its devastating consequences for society. This will contribute to stopping the custom of mutilating the female body.
The conference calls on the legislative organs to pass a law, which bans the practice of this gruesome custom and declares it a crime, irrespective of whether this concerns the perpetrator or the initiator.
Furthermore, the conference calls on international institutions and organisations to provide help in all regions where this gruesome custom is practiced, which will contribute to its elimination.

Signature:
Professor Ali Gom’a Grand Mufti of Egypt 24/11/2006

It is hardly ever practised in Arabia, and where it is almost always amongst African immigrants, and nowhere else in the Muslim world. It is, however, practised amongst Christians, Ethiopian Jews, and followers of animistic religions in Africa.

Why single out Muslims?

Devrim

[Rakhmetov]

There are plenty Muslims who are WHITE.

[Devrim]

FGC has never been part of Christianity as a faith system. There are no scriptural or doctrinal documents existing within the larger Christian tradition that even address the issue. The only contemporary examples of Christians practicing FGC are in Africa. As FGC rituals predated the missionaries work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of cultural tradition, unrelated to religious belief.

Nor has it ever been part of the Islamic tradition and apart from very few examples in Arabia mostly amongst African immigrants the only examples of Muslims practising FGM are in Africa. As FGC rituals predated the spread of Islam work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of cultural tradition, unrelated to religious belief.

Devrim

[Rakhmetov]

Nor has it ever been part of the Islamic tradition and apart from very few examples in Arabia mostly amongst African immigrants the only examples of Muslims practising FGM are in Africa. As FGC rituals predated the spread of Islam work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of cultural tradition, unrelated to religious belief.

Devrim

All right, it has been part of the patriarchal tradition.

[Devrim]

All right, it has been part of the patriarchal tradition.

A part of the patriarchal tradition that is common to North Africans of all religions, but to virtually no Arabians, and Arabia is a deeply patriarchal society.

Why then are you saying that this should apply to Muslims. If we look at Muslims in Europe, one of the biggest communities is the Turkish community in Germany. Yet I have never even heard that this is practised in Turkey.

Should Turkish children be checked because the overwhelming majority come from Muslim families? What about Iranians, another country where this is never practised?

Devrim

[Rakhmetov]

A part of the patriarchal tradition that is common to North Africans of all religions, but to virtually no Arabians, and Arabia is a deeply patriarchal society.

Why then are you saying that this should apply to Muslims. If we look at Muslims in Europe, one of the biggest communities is the Turkish community in Germany. Yet I have never even heard that this is practised in Turkey.

Should Turkish children be checked because the overwhelming majority come from Muslim families? What about Iranians, another country where this is never practised?

Devrim

"High risk countries" may be a better designation.

[Crux]

There are plenty Muslims who are WHITE.
Some racists pose as left.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Despite the OP's racist post and the subsequent discourse upon it, I think this does bring up an important issue, Female circumcison is essentaily physical/sexual abuse, and while it has been long present in certain parts of the African continent, it is increasingly appearing in certain immingrant communities in the western world, where it is often difficult for those investigating such crimes to obtain conviticions due to the fact that it is a commonly accepted cultural norm in some communities, leading to women suffering in silence.

[S.Artesian]

Despite the OP's racist post and the subsequent discourse upon it, I think this does bring up an important issue, Female circumcison is essentaily physical/sexual abuse, and while it has been long present in certain parts of the African continent, it is increasingly appearing in certain immingrant communities in the western world, where it is often difficult for those investigating such crimes to obtain conviticions due to the fact that it is a commonly accepted cultural norm in some communities, leading to women suffering in silence.

Sure it is, BUT when people talk about supporting a law, they're talking about supporting a bourgeois law, enforced by the bourgeoisie, and we as revolutionists should have nothing to do with it, just as we should offer nothing but opposition to the French bourgeoisie's law banning the wearing of head scarves by women in public.

So look at how this works out.... at the very time when European, east and west, and North American countries, and others are demonizing immigrants, subjecting them to abuse, deportation, arrest, imprisonment, we're supposed to say, "Oh, we're against that, but we're FOR those very same institutions of abuse and oppression checking female immigrants' genitals."

No thanks. Marx, back in the 1870s said that "the first principle of our party is... not a farthing for this government." Somebody wants to support a law, that means authorizing the money for these governments, these police forces, to enforce that law. No way. No fucking way.

[Kléber]

How about also doing the same for male children, and checking up on parents from cultures known to mutilate their sons' penises? Male circumcision is comparable to the "light" form of FGC so let's be conscious of our own biases here. If you want the government to do everything it can to prevent kids from getting their private parts chopped up, you should go across the board.

[La Comédie Noire]

I think education is what is needed, not laws that will punish people.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Sure it is, BUT when people talk about supporting a law, they're talking about supporting a bourgeois law, enforced by the bourgeoisie, and we as revolutionists should have nothing to do with it, just as we should offer nothing but opposition to the French bourgeoisie's law banning the wearing of head scarves by women in public.

So look at how this works out.... at the very time when European, east and west, and North American countries, and others are demonizing immigrants, subjecting them to abuse, deportation, arrest, imprisonment, we're supposed to say, "Oh, we're against that, but we're FOR those very same institutions of abuse and oppression checking female immigrants' genitals."

No thanks. Marx, back in the 1870s said that "the first principle of our party is... not a farthing for this government." Somebody wants to support a law, that means authorizing the money for these governments, these police forces, to enforce that law. No way. No fucking way.

So you oppose the enforcement of rape laws as bourgeoisie?

[zimmerwald1915]

So you oppose the enforcement of rape laws as bourgeoisie?
Given the [projected, and thus to some extent conjectural] number of rapes that go unreported and thus their perpetrators unpunished and their victims unhealed every year, either the bourgeoisie is incredibly incompetant in its enforcement of anti-rape measures or it is totally insincere about its commitment to these measures in the first place. Or both.

[HEAD ICE]

Man, this dude's posts are garbo.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Given the [projected, and thus to some extent conjectural] number of rapes that go unreported and thus their perpetrators unpunished and their victims unhealed every year, either the bourgeoisie is incredibly incompetant in its enforcement of anti-rape measures or it is totally insincere about its commitment to these measures in the first place. Or both.

That doesn't mean that such laws are irrelevent, it is better for them to exist that not, even if they are not properly enforced.

[zimmerwald1915]

That doesn't mean that such laws are irrelevent, it is better for them to exist that not, even if they are not properly enforced.
But it does mean that the bourgeoisie, from this perspective as in so many others, is totally unequipped to be the ruling class of society, and society deserves better. Simply saying how great it is that a law exists, and proclaiming the bourgeois state worthy of defense in some respects because it has that law on its books is a response wholly unsuited to the problems of today.

[S.Artesian]

So you oppose the enforcement of rape laws as bourgeoisie?

Not going to fall for the bait. We oppose rape. Plain and simple. That does not mean I support the police, the courts, or that we come down on the side of the bourgeoisie's law enforcement apparatus.

What you are trying to do is abstract this issue, isolate it, pretend the law, or clamoring for such a law won't feed directly into the assaults and abuse of immigrant people. It will.

I oppose the KKK, too. Doesn't mean I think the solution is in having more police, or the bourgeoisie passing hate crime laws.

[Rakhmetov]

This is a troll. Why isn't he banned?

I'm sick of you guys labeling me as a "racist." That law applies to all women wearing the burqa regardless of race. If a white one is caught wearing the burqa it would apply to her as well. If anyone is lacking in proper humane values it's you guys who are misogynists and are cloaking your misogyny in the garb of liberal tolerance for patriarchal oppression of defenseless women who are 50-51% of the population of every country.

[Adil3tr]

What a stupid, not to mention racist, idea

I'm muslim, and all this conservative bullshit in Muslim countries has got to go. I want to see a Saur revolution in every muslim country freeing women from distorted shariah law and killing terrorists.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Communists should oppose male and female circumcision alike and also racist laws that would give perverted social workers an excuse to sexually abuse children.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I'm sick of you guys labeling me as a "racist." That law applies to all women wearing the burqa regardless of race. If a white one is caught wearing the burqa it would apply to her as well. If anyone is lacking in proper humane values it's you guys who are misogynists and are cloaking your misogyny in the garb of liberal tolerance for patriarchal oppression of defenseless women who are 50-51% of the population of every country.

Female circumcison is not a muslim tradition, it is an african one, and certain parts of africa perform it, Female circumcison is just as prevelant amongst christian communities in africa.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Female circumcison is not a muslim tradition, it is an african one, and certain parts of africa perform it, Female circumcison is just as prevelant amongst christian communities in africa.

Emphasizing the tradition's "African-ness" is also vaguely racist, as if Africans benefited from the colonizing and civilizing influence of Islam and genital mutilation is only a throwback to pre-fueal savagery.

In hospitals across the US, you are almost guaranteed to have your genitals mutilated at birth if you are male or hermaphrodite.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

I'm sick of you guys labeling me as a "racist." That law applies to all women wearing the burqa regardless of race. If a white one is caught wearing the burqa it would apply to her as well. If anyone is lacking in proper humane values it's you guys who are misogynists and are cloaking your misogyny in the garb of liberal tolerance for patriarchal oppression of defenseless women who are 50-51% of the population of every country.

Should women who wear push-up bras and stiletto-heeled shoes also be subjected to compulsory genital examinations?

Islamic head-scarves are not inherently misogynistic. (For example, traditional Persian headscarves far predate Islamic patriarchy) What is misogynistic is that the individual does not have the freedom to dress how she chooses. Is it misogynistic for a woman to wear a shirt, simply because it is unacceptable for women but not men to go topless in public in the West?

I agree that many cloak their misogyny in "tolerant liberalism" (eg: "leftists" who support Hamas) but others also cloak their cultural chauvinism in "enlightened secularism". (eg: Dawkins ignorantly ridiculing indigenous Australian customs in The God Delusion)

[gorillafuck]

I'm sick of you guys labeling me as a "racist." That law applies to all women wearing the burqa regardless of race. If a white one is caught wearing the burqa it would apply to her as well.
You want to have mandatory genital inspections for women who wear burqas. That's so stupid in multiple ways.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

You want to have mandatory genital inspections for women who wear burqas. That's so stupid in multiple ways.

Most Islamic women don't wear burqas anyway...

[Rakhmetov]

You want to have mandatory genital inspections for women who wear burqas. That's so stupid in multiple ways.

Why so?--- when many children are routinely screened for scoliosis in America's schools.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Why so?--- when many children are routinely screened for scoliosis in America's schools.

They are not screened for scoliosis on the basis of cultural background or choice of attire.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

What about male genital mutilation (circumcision)?

[zimmerwald1915]

What about male genital mutilation (circumcision)?
What about it? Come the revolution, males will still be circumsized, as collective penance for our inborn complicit sympathy with the old patriarchy.[/sarcasm]

[Crux]

I'm sick of you guys labeling me as a "racist." That law applies to all women wearing the burqa regardless of race. If a white one is caught wearing the burqa it would apply to her as well. If anyone is lacking in proper humane values it's you guys who are misogynists and are cloaking your misogyny in the garb of liberal tolerance for patriarchal oppression of defenseless women who are 50-51% of the population of every country.
50-51% of women in all countries wear the burqa? Oh you. And I thought there was no ptrairchy in the west, amirite?

Also pay close attention to his wording here. This poster clearly is more on a "ohnoes ISLAM IS INVADING EUROPE"-spin than anything having to do with women's rights.

[Sasha]

Neither my catholic grandma nor my Jewish one would leave their house without an headscarf. Give the Muslims a few generations as well for fuck sake.

[S.Artesian]

Communists should oppose male and female circumcision alike and also racist laws that would give perverted social workers an excuse to sexually abuse children.

Of course we oppose genital mutilation. The question is do we ask, support, endorse the bourgeoisie's police apparatus to handle the matter?

No, we don't. We organize the poor, the oppressed, the workers to handle the matter.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Communists should oppose male and female circumcision alike and also racist laws that would give perverted social workers an excuse to sexually abuse children.

Do you seriously think that all social workers are perverts who sexually abuse children, or was that just your piss-poor phrasing? :huh:

[zimmerwald1915]

Do you seriously think that all social workers are perverts who sexually abuse children, or was that just your piss-poor phrasing? :huh:
Looks like piss-poor phrasing to me. "Racist laws that would give that subset of social workers who are perverted an excuse to sexually abuse children" just sounds so much more likely that "racist laws that would give social workers, all of whom are perverted, an excuse to sexually abuse children".

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Do you seriously think that all social workers are perverts who sexually abuse children

No. But most working-class youths don't want their intimate organs forcibly 'examined' by medical and educational bureaucrats, or their lives violently relocated by the capitalist state from one abusive nuclear family to another, and I think that's quite reasonable.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

No. But most working-class youths don't want their intimate organs forcibly 'examined' by medical and educational bureaucrats, or their lives violently relocated by the capitalist state from one abusive nuclear family to another, and I think that's quite reasonable.

Yes, I agree. It just threw me that you appeared to be condemning all social workers as abusive perverts.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Yes, I agree. It just threw me that you appeared to be condemning all social workers as abusive perverts.

My experience as a public childcare worker has taught me that physical and psychological abuse is rampant among workers in the field of child "care". This isn't a moral condemnation: Abusing the less powerful is a common way for many to deal with their own relative powerlessness.

Those who aren't abusive towards their child wards also tend to be as disillusioned with the institution but also more class-conscious, I don't think that's a coincidence either.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Emphasizing the tradition's "African-ness" is also vaguely racist, as if Africans benefited from the colonizing and civilizing influence of Islam and genital mutilation is only a throwback to pre-fueal savagery.

In hospitals across the US, you are almost guaranteed to have your genitals mutilated at birth if you are male or hermaphrodite.

What? I'm not saying it doesn happen in the muslim world, I'm saying it happens primarily in africa, that is not some kind of racism its just a fact.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

My experience as a public childcare worker has taught me that physical and psychological abuse is rampant among workers in the field of child "care". This isn't a moral condemnation: Abusing the less powerful is a common way for many to deal with their own relative powerlessness.

Those who aren't abusive towards their child wards also tend to be as disillusioned with the institution but also more class-conscious, I don't think that's a coincidence either.

Ugh. Thank you for reminding me of the parlous state of foster "care".

In my experience, social workers can be a good influence on teenagers and young adults if they have a genuine interest in bettering their lives; but whether this is due to luck, differing practices over the Atlantic or something else I can't really say.

[Devrim]

How about also doing the same for male children, and checking up on parents from cultures known to mutilate their sons' penises? Male circumcision is comparable to the "light" form of FGC so let's be conscious of our own biases here. If you want the government to do everything it can to prevent kids from getting their private parts chopped up, you should go across the board.


Communists should oppose male and female circumcision alike and also racist laws that would give perverted social workers an excuse to sexually abuse children.



In hospitals across the US, you are almost guaranteed to have your genitals mutilated at birth if you are male or hermaphrodite.

I think it is really demeaning what is a serious issue to compare male circumcision to FGM.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Neither my catholic grandma nor my Jewish one would leave their house without an headscarf. Give the Muslims a few generations as well for fuck sake.

:rolleyes:

Devrim

[meow]

:rolleyes:

Devrim
i dont see problem?

immigrants tend to integirate into society. most muslims in western europe are immigrants or the recent decendents of immigrants. it tends to be the case that after one two or three generations groups are fully (as much as any other group) integrated into a society. this is the case for britain usa australia and other english speaking countries. and it is case for other western european countries. only in some cases such as japan does this not work out.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

I think it is really demeaning what is a serious issue to compare male circumcision to FGM.

Devrim

Why do you believe male circumcision is not a "serious issue"?


...the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision, with an inevitable reduction in sexual sensation experienced by circumcised males. [...] Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well. (1 (http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1036&context=hss_pubs))

Even the reactionary AMA has stated "virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision..." (2 (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/13585.shtml))

The WHO has also stated that " possible functions" of the male foreskin include "keeping the glans moist" and "to enhance sexual pleasure due to the presence of nerve receptors".

Male circumcision was introduced to the modern world by the capitalist medical bureaucracy, as a means to deter adolescent males from masturbating. It is no different than female circumcision: An act of coercive violence against the human body and human sexuality in the name of exploitative puritanical discipline.

here is an excellent article on the subject:
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/gollaher/

Female circumcision as a practice has varying degrees of severity, and some cases of botched male circumcision are truly ghastly. There is also a growing body of evidence that the pain experienced in infancy from both male and female circumcision results in lifelong psychological trauma. To oppose female circumcision without opposing male circumcision is cultural chauvinist hypocrisy.

Besides you are ignoring the fact that hospitals in the West routinely castrate hermaphrodites.

Obvious statement is obvious: Commnuists should oppose the mutilation of children's genitals.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

immigrants tend to integirate into society.

In the case of liberal capitalist society, why is "integration" desirable from a communist perspective?

[Devrim]

Male circumcision was introduced to the modern world by the capitalist medical bureaucracy,

No, it wasn't it had already existed in Muslim and Jewish culture for centuries.


...as a means to deter adolescent males from masturbating.

It doesn't work then. Believe me. I know.


Even the reactionary AMA has stated "virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision..." (2 (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/13585.shtml))

The WHO has also stated that " possible functions" of the male foreskin include "keeping the glans moist" and "to enhance sexual pleasure due to the presence of nerve receptors".

You can find medical arguments to back up both sides of the argument. I am not a doctor, and don't intend to argue it.

Devrim