Conservative Dad

[Hen]

My dad voted conservative in the last election. He is a doctor. He works hard, and has done all his life, but has recently become tired of being taxed to death to pay for the rest of society.
I try to explain to him that there is a misconception that rich people work harder than poorer people. I explain that the amount an unemployed parasite takes from his/her society is minute compared to the amount a greedy self-important banker takes from his/her society. I say that despite his more extensive education, white-collar work is not more valuable to society that blue-collar workers...etc
He said "is a hard-working doctor not more valuable to society than a hard-working ice-cream salesman...?". It is undeniable that a doctor's use value is higher than a ice-cream salesman's. Obviously, as single entities, white collar-work is not more valuable than blue collar workers, but there are clear differences in value between some jobs. How does Marx account for this? Does he say that a doctors higher value is rewarded not with high wages etc, but rewarded with the enjoyment and knowledge of being valued by his/her society?

[Kotze]

Value is a loaded term. With Marx, a thing's value usually means the amount of labour necessary to produce it. So how does the amount of labour determine value? Answer: It's true by definition. The real question is how is value in the Marxian sense related to stuff happening in the economy, how much can it explain? The value ratio between 2 things explains their price ratio, but only roughly. Shortages and over-supply as well as monopoly situations make prices deviate from value. As for a doctor, the value of a surgery in the Marxian sense isn't just the hour it took, but also the time it took to produce the tools he uses. For any task that requires training, the training time is part of its value. Take it into account. You have to also take into account whether you can train for a task alone with a couple of books or whether it requires interaction with teachers (and how much training do these need?). So what's the Marxian value of a doctor's work? A shitload. I'd even wager a fuckton. You can tell that your dad.

How does price relate to utility? Unlike what you might hear in a mainstream introduction to economics, there isn't much of a relation. There would be more of a relation if the gap between rich and poor wasn't so big, since rich people's "money votes" often go to rubbish they don't need. But whatever changes society undergoes, even under socialism water and air will be cheaper than some kitsch that is hard to produce.

Socialism isn't about giving everybody the same amount of money, no matter how long and how hard they work. Being a doctor, your dad is the best example that conservative pundits all over the world use to show that some people's work is more important than other people's work. Rich people who aren't doctors routinely say they are just like doctors, without going into details, because that would be embarassing. I make money through this "music" group of underage girls who will fail at school because for five hours each day I make them jump around like strippers who overdosed on coffee — and that's why I'm as important as a doctor. No wait, as my bank account confirms, I'm as important as twenty doctors. So don't diss doctors, try to put into words how these other well off groups (eg. successful stock market gamblers) are not like doctors.

Income level is partially due to your productivity and partially due to your luck and position in society. We lefties believe that for high-income people, the part that is due to their productivity is usually small; a believe that has consequences, eg. as a rule of thumb I don't believe that a high tax on high income is very demotivational. The exact income composition is hard to untangle in many situations though. I can't just say that since my boss makes a bigger profit from my work than your boss gets out of your work I am exploited more. Your boss himself might be a supplier under strong competitive pressure with only one big customer, so there is somebody else in the process who also profits from your work. It's complicated.

The clearest example of the rich leeching of other people I can think of is the absentee landlord. If your dad doesn't own land himself, you might get him interested in land value taxation (that is a tax on the lot for being in a good location, not for what is built on that lot).

[iwwforever]

In a socialist society your dad would have been taken care of while he went to school for no cost to learn to be doctor.

I recommend to your dad the book "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich. Then perhaps he can appreciate being part of the privileged class.

[Red Commissar]

Would you consider your family to be "middle-class"?

[Aesop]

To be honest you don't need a marxist theory of labour to see through this one.
Well the fact that your father says he works harder than a ice-cream worker does not negate the point that fundamentally he is in his position due to due to the labour before him.
How could your father operate effective if it was that for the builders(who build the hospital), the cleaners(who clean hospitals),the teachers(who taught him being able to read and write in order to become a doctor),street cleaners(no point of having a doctor if rubbish is being left on the streets for vermin to infest cities)The list could go on.

In fact under socialism more doctors will be trained due to the fact society will be organised on the basis of need and not for the benefit of the few also society will be organised in a way in which problems like obesity will be rapidly diminished , this will lower your father's working hour.

[Hen]

Rich people who aren't doctors routinely say they are just like doctors, without going into details, because that would be embarassing. I make money through this "music" group of underage girls who will fail at school because for five hours each day I make them jump around like strippers who overdosed on coffee — and that's why I'm as important as a doctor. No wait, as my bank account confirms, I'm as important as twenty doctors. So don't diss doctors, try to put into words how these other well off groups (eg. successful stock market gamblers) are not like doctors.

Great writing :)


Would you consider your family to be "middle-class"?

Yes. Extremely "middle-class".


To be honest you don't need a marxist theory of labour to see through this one.
Well the fact that your father says he works harder than a ice-cream worker does not negate the point that fundamentally he is in his position due to due to the labour before him.
How could your father operate effective if it was that for the builders(who build the hospital), the cleaners(who clean hospitals),the teachers(who taught him being able to read and write in order to become a doctor),street cleaners(no point of having a doctor if rubbish is being left on the streets for vermin to infest cities)The list could go on.

The fact that my father depends on the labour before him, as does everyone, surely does not exclude the fact that a person's need to be cured of disease is more than a person's need for an ice-cream. Of course the process of curing a persons disease requires a whole spectrum of workers like you said...teachers, cleaners, builders etc...but is there no differentiation in value between these people and the whole spectrum of workers concerned with the supply of ice creams?

[Revolution starts with U]

Allow me to get a little hostile for a second.
I imagine your dad still pulls in over 100k/yr, probably double that. He can fuck off that he is getting "taxed to death." Seriously, go fuck yourself you self-serving puke. Living in luxury while others starve is a good thing, right?
I'm sick of people having to go to food banks every sunday because their job won't pay the bills because self-serving ass hats like your father must have their precious America's Got Talent (at being slaves) and an H3 Hummer. I'm sick of people across the world living in abject poverty, their children starving daily, because some capitalist testicular cancer of a person doesn't want to pay someone a living wage to produce his precious $7 cups of coffee.
Tell your dad to grow, harvest, brew his own coffee if his work (that he chose and desired) is more important than anyone else's. :mad::mad::mad:

But other than that, if you don't want to get smakced by your pops, the posters above me make some great, not-so-hostile points. :thumbup1:

[Adil3tr]

My dad voted conservative in the last election. He is a doctor. He works hard, and has done all his life, but has recently become tired of being taxed to death to pay for the rest of society.
I try to explain to him that there is a misconception that rich people work harder than poorer people. I explain that the amount an unemployed parasite takes from his/her society is minute compared to the amount a greedy self-important banker takes from his/her society. I say that despite his more extensive education, white-collar work is not more valuable to society that blue-collar workers...etc
He said "is a hard-working doctor not more valuable to society than a hard-working ice-cream salesman...?". It is undeniable that a doctor's use value is higher than a ice-cream salesman's. Obviously, as single entities, white collar-work is not more valuable than blue collar workers, but there are clear differences in value between some jobs. How does Marx account for this? Does he say that a doctors higher value is rewarded not with high wages etc, but rewarded with the enjoyment and knowledge of being valued by his/her society?

My dad is a doctor, and he has business-ish tendencies, like voting for bush in 2000. But since we're muslim he has kind of put a cap on that, and over the years I think he has drifted further to the left, but still watches investor talk and whatever, oh well.
My point is, even though we are upper middle class, he is not a capitalist. Capitalists are people who live off the labor off others and own large amounts of property like factories and land. Doctors help people, and do a lot of good, Che was a doctor. You can make two arguments. One, under socialism, its not that we are all pai the same, its that everything is free and universally available, and besides, you will still be able to "buy" whatever you need while you're in medical school, which will be free. Two, are you a doctor so you can make money, or so you can help people and relieve their pain? You will only lose your relative economic standing, but you will still have the respect of your fellow citizens.

[Revolution starts with U]

Capitalist or not (which I assume he has an retirement account in the market, so he probably is a capitalist), he is still bourgousie (arrgh, hate spelling that). I will never argue that doctors are not valuable, and that we shouldn't reward the poeple who want to do it.
But (first the original Hypocratic Oath rejected accepting payment for services), his position already allows him a life of comfort compared to not only most of America, but really, most of the world. For him to claim being "taxed to death" is insulting, and he can fuck off on that point.
Did he get financial aid to go to school? If so, give it back, you're sick of taxes. Stop using the roads, you're sick of taxes. Everytime you buy farm food, give the store and extra 30% (subsidies) cuz you're sick of taxes. Stay off the internet, taxes.
If he is so sick of poor people "stealing" his stolen money, go live in a cave.

(I just want to say, on a different day, I would be much more reasonable about this. But I havn't been able to let my seething leftist contempt out for a while and he was getting cabin fever :D)

[Hen]

Allow me to get a little hostile for a second.
I imagine your dad still pulls in over 100k/yr, probably double that. He can fuck off that he is getting "taxed to death." Seriously, go fuck yourself you self-serving puke. Living in luxury while others starve is a good thing, right?
I'm sick of people having to go to food banks every sunday because their job won't pay the bills because self-serving ass hats like your father must have their precious America's Got Talent (at being slaves) and an H3 Hummer. I'm sick of people across the world living in abject poverty, their children starving daily, because some capitalist testicular cancer of a person doesn't want to pay someone a living wage to produce his precious $7 cups of coffee.
Tell your dad to grow, harvest, brew his own coffee if his work (that he chose and desired) is more important than anyone else's. :mad::mad::mad:

But other than that, if you don't want to get smakced by your pops, the posters above me make some great, not-so-hostile points. :thumbup1:

It's a shame you felt the need to resort to that. Forgive me, but I did post in the learning section didn't I.

Unfortunately you have it quite wrong. My dad loves his job, grows his own vegetables, cycles to work, lives modestly and hates greed. He has been a voting lefty for sometime, but is paying for a debt authored by the financial crisis that he or nobody else had anything to do with. Unfortunately he thinks it is "the left" that is making him and the rest of us clear up something that he nor nobody else had anything to do with, which is where I hope to reason with him, and subsequently came here for inspiration...You did not provide any inspiration for reason...just profanity.

You forget that my Dad is also part of the division of labour, so whilst reading up on medicine, he didn't quite have time to read Marx's Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts now did he...Fortunately he will listen to reason....so if somebody else could please provide me with some...My father and I are willing learners.

Anyway...

[Revolution starts with U]

I am not saying your dad is a bad guy, just that he can f-off with "taxed to death." That is bourgousie greed, pure and simple. It is min wage and 3rd world workers who are literally being taxed to death, not so much by their own governments, but by the capitalists that stole their land, because of our excess here in the west.
Also, if he is calling Democrats "leftist," he really has a lot to learn about politics, give him a lil Chomsky to mull over.
I'm not here to offer a socialist solution (at this time). I am just pointing out his argument is bunk. He lives a life of comfort (even if he chooses to live modestly, that is still a choice he can make, most do not have the comfort of such a choice). How can I give a solution to a bogus argument?
Also, I did say forgive me ;)

[Hen]

I am not saying your dad is a bad guy, just that he can f-off with "taxed to death." That is bourgousie greed, pure and simple. It is min wage and 3rd world workers who are literally being taxed to death, not so much by their own governments, but by the capitalists that stole their land, because of our excess here in the west.
Also, if he is calling Democrats "leftist," he really has a lot to learn about politics, give him a lil Chomsky to mull over.
I'm not here to offer a socialist solution (at this time). I am just pointing out his argument is bunk. He lives a life of comfort (even if he chooses to live modestly, that is still a choice he can make, most do not have the comfort of such a choice). How can I give a solution to a bogus argument?
Also, I did say forgive me ;)

"taxed to death" is not a quote. I should have been more aware of my ability to anger some with this choice of words.

Also, there is a world outside of America, and I am British...so Democrats?...no way. Election before he voted 'Green Party', which is one of the most left in the country.

Why do choose to attack people who have the choice but still choose a life of modesty. Of course we know we are lucky, that there are people who suffer, and who don't have the choice. However I think you would do a lot better to attack people who DO have the choice and who DON'T choose a life of modesty.

All I was doing was questioning how Marx deals with the obvious difference between the need to be cured from disease and the need to eat an ice-cream? Anyone...?

[Revolution starts with U]

Does your dad eat Ice Cream? If so, produce all the materials himself; farming, making bowls, spoons, mixers, electricity, freezers, then make the ice cream. If he can do all that, and still remain a doctor, he can claim to be more important than the ice cream maker/server.
The division of labor is what makes the ice cream man just as valuable. How would he get his wages practicing medicine if he didn't buy ice cream, or other such commodities. Nobody would have money to pay him.
Either way, I was just in a mood to get angry earlier :laugh:. Ask him why he thinks his lifestyle choice is any more valid than anyone else's?

[Raúl Duke]

My dad voted conservative in the last election. He is a doctor. He works hard, and has done all his life, but has recently become tired of being taxed to death to pay for the rest of society.
I try to explain to him that there is a misconception that rich people work harder than poorer people. I explain that the amount an unemployed parasite takes from his/her society is minute compared to the amount a greedy self-important banker takes from his/her society. I say that despite his more extensive education, white-collar work is not more valuable to society that blue-collar workers...etc
He said "is a hard-working doctor not more valuable to society than a hard-working ice-cream salesman...?". It is undeniable that a doctor's use value is higher than a ice-cream salesman's. Obviously, as single entities, white collar-work is not more valuable than blue collar workers, but there are clear differences in value between some jobs. How does Marx account for this? Does he say that a doctors higher value is rewarded not with high wages etc, but rewarded with the enjoyment and knowledge of being valued by his/her society?

Value is hard to ascertain in many cases.

A hard-working doctor does provide much to society, perhaps more so than many blue-coller workers (especially if they're stuck producing the most junk kind of items that for some reason people buy). But what of the banker? Recently, bankers provided nothing but misery for an entire economy. Also, cleaners (etc),trash/waste management, sanitation-related workers are also extremely important for society perhaps up to par with a doctor but are paid less.

The issue is that the state also use the money for useless (like wars for the bourgeoisie!) shit rather than helping their own citizens (like giving me and everyone universal public health care!).

[Revolution starts with U]

Is it safe to say the state's favorite pastimes are violence (war, police states), drugs (drug wars), and gambling (like insuring stock market speculation)?

[Hen]

Does your dad eat Ice Cream? If so, produce all the materials himself; farming, making bowls, spoons, mixers, electricity, freezers, then make the ice cream. If he can do all that, and still remain a doctor, he can claim to be more important than the ice cream maker/server.
The division of labor is what makes the ice cream man just as valuable. How would he get his wages practicing medicine if he didn't buy ice cream, or other such commodities. Nobody would have money to pay him.
Either way, I was just in a mood to get angry earlier :laugh:. Ask him why he thinks his lifestyle choice is any more valid than anyone else's?

Ok, remove my dad from the equation because clearly it's winding you up.

I understand that an ice-cream salesperson contributes to an economy that pays a society its wages. But surely you cannot contest the variation in the size and value of different labour. Or do you need an ice-cream just as much as you need health care?

[∞]

Doctors are proletariat too, being exploited by big health care companies. My mother has to go out her way to get her patients the drugs that they don't cover. Actually, most doctors want healthcare reform. As my mother, who supports a single-payer system.
And trust me, she works like a dog...not leeching of labor like an idiot CEO.

[Hen]

Yeh I don't really know much about your privatized health care. My Dad is a doctor in Britain, which has the NHS (National Health Service)...

[Revolution starts with U]

That is my point tho. What exactly makes your dad more valuable than any other worker? Is it because he works harder? I am sure there are many people who work much harder and get paid much less. Is it because of how hard he had to study? Well, then I am sure he has no problem paying PH. D's as much as doctors. Is it because he takes care of people's health? Well, then waste management and people who work in gyms and health food stores should get paid just as much.
He's going to have to be consistent in this position, otherwise it is just self-serving.

[Hen]

That is my point tho. What exactly makes your dad more valuable than any other worker? Is it because he works harder? I am sure there are many people who work much harder and get paid much less. Is it because of how hard he had to study? Well, then I am sure he has no problem paying PH. D's as much as doctors.

I've already told him that rich people do not work harder than poor people. That white collar work is not more valuable than blue collar work. I've already dismissed these first two points as ways to measure his value.


Is it because he takes care of people's health? Well, then waste management and people who work in gyms and health food stores should get paid just as much.
He's going to have to be consistent in this position, otherwise it is just self-serving.

Yes! The only assessment of value I wanted to discuss was the actual nature of the work, and how much it's society needs it. I used doctors and ice-cream salespeople as polar examples of the different value of different industries. We would manage without ice-creams, but would not without health care. We would manage without hairdressers, but not without farmers.

[Revolution starts with U]

We managed 100's of 1000's of years just fine without specialized health care providers, nor farmers. And yet, even then, people enjoyed luxuries. So, once again, what claim does he have that his work is more important?

[Hen]

We managed 100's of 1000's of years just fine without specialized health care providers, nor farmers. And yet, even then, people enjoyed luxuries. So, once again, what claim does he have that his work is more important?

I wouldn't exactly call millions of people dying of the bubonic plague, or the fact that more people died of TB immediately after the First World War than actually in it as "managing".

And wtf? we have had farmers for as long as we have existed. All living species are farmers...

[Revolution starts with U]

Gathering != agriculture. Farming is a very specific thing, only us and ants farm, that I know of.
And wait, didn't we have doctors during the plague and WW1? Ya, I'm going to go ahead and say doctors < People taking care of their own health.
Doctors are great and all, but there is nothing other than subjective valuations that say they should be paid more than say a nutritionist, gym worker, or waste management worker.

[Hen]

Gathering != agriculture. Farming is a very specific thing, only us and ants farm, that I know of.
And wait, didn't we have doctors during the plague and WW1? Ya, I'm going to go ahead and say doctors < People taking care of their own health.
Doctors are great and all, but there is nothing other than subjective valuations that say they should be paid more than say a nutritionist, gym worker, or waste management worker.

Doctors < People taking care of their own health is simply laughable. Next time you break a leg, you go ahead and cut yourself open and glue it back together. You're missing the point, medical scientists coming up with the BCG vaccine is more valuable in terms of use than access to ice-cream.

Farming? - Whatever, I'm comparing hairdressing and agriculture.

I'm not attacking anyone or anything. You just need to admit that you need a doctor more than you need an ice-cream. You need to admit that our need for all products and services is not exactly equal. Does this inequality of need and value have to lead to elitism? Maybe not...can anyone give me an answer?

[Dimentio]

My dad voted conservative in the last election. He is a doctor. He works hard, and has done all his life, but has recently become tired of being taxed to death to pay for the rest of society.
I try to explain to him that there is a misconception that rich people work harder than poorer people. I explain that the amount an unemployed parasite takes from his/her society is minute compared to the amount a greedy self-important banker takes from his/her society. I say that despite his more extensive education, white-collar work is not more valuable to society that blue-collar workers...etc
He said "is a hard-working doctor not more valuable to society than a hard-working ice-cream salesman...?". It is undeniable that a doctor's use value is higher than a ice-cream salesman's. Obviously, as single entities, white collar-work is not more valuable than blue collar workers, but there are clear differences in value between some jobs. How does Marx account for this? Does he say that a doctors higher value is rewarded not with high wages etc, but rewarded with the enjoyment and knowledge of being valued by his/her society?

There is also a difference between a CEO and a doctor. A doctor is performing a vital service (no matter what Omnia is saying), while a CEO is leeching off a company.

[Revolution starts with U]

[QUOTE=Hen;1866623]Doctors < People taking care of their own health is simply laughable. Next time you break a leg, you go ahead and cut yourself open and glue it back together.
I have done it to fingers, its only a small step up to an arm or leg. Set the bone, make a splint.

You're missing the point, medical scientists coming up with the BCG vaccine is more valuable in terms of use than access to ice-cream.
Why? We got on just fine before it was invented.
You miss my point. I am not saying doctors are not awesome. Quite the opposite, it takes a lot of passion and dedication to go through all that training. But more important than the guy who cleans up garbage? Hardly. (also, that is a medical scientist, not neccessarily a doctor)
99% of the time we do not need healthcare to survive. Your dad can get over himself, and quit trying to act better than people.


Farming? - Whatever, I'm comparing hairdressing and agriculture.
So, then everything is just important, correct? If you're dad feels he can grow/gather/hunt is own food, build his own houses, make the furnishings himself, and generally provide for himself, then he can talk about his job being more important. As of now, he is just a (very awesome) piece in the division of labor.

You just need to admit that you need a doctor more than you need an ice-cream.
Do I?

You need to admit that our need for all products and services is not exactly equal.
I think you are projecting yourself onto everyone else. Let's not do that. Of course our needs aren't equal, but not for the reasons you propose. Only because we are subjective creatures with different needs.

Does this inequality of need and value have to lead to elitism?
Yes. As soon as one man feels he is better than another he will begin to try subjugating him. The most important message we, as socialists, can put out there is "get over yourself."

[Fulanito de Tal]

A ridiculously small amount of taxes go to help others in need. Of the money that goes to that, much of it is mishandled and given to community and organizational leaders for their own benefit. The people that actually need the resources don't get much at all.

If your dad hates taxes, tell him to start his own party because none of the parties show any signs of doing so productively. The Republican Party can't just lower taxes while starting wars and without driving us deeper into debt. The Democrats are donating our taxes to companies as did the Republican Party.

[∞]

Just tell your dad that hes not missing much, many doctors in the US probably wish they could be in his shoes.

[Comrade Robert Swain]

My dad voted conservative in the last election. He is a doctor. He works hard, and has done all his life, but has recently become tired of being taxed to death to pay for the rest of society.
I try to explain to him that there is a misconception that rich people work harder than poorer people. I explain that the amount an unemployed parasite takes from his/her society is minute compared to the amount a greedy self-important banker takes from his/her society. I say that despite his more extensive education, white-collar work is not more valuable to society that blue-collar workers...etc
He said "is a hard-working doctor not more valuable to society than a hard-working ice-cream salesman...?". It is undeniable that a doctor's use value is higher than a ice-cream salesman's. Obviously, as single entities, white collar-work is not more valuable than blue collar workers, but there are clear differences in value between some jobs. How does Marx account for this? Does he say that a doctors higher value is rewarded not with high wages etc, but rewarded with the enjoyment and knowledge of being valued by his/her society?
Is it me, or does this forum seem to have a lot of petit bourgeois leftists?

[chegitz guevara]

Why argue with your dad? Why not just love him and spend time doing things together you won't be able to do when you're an adult?

[Unkut]

The people who work utilities and trash disposal services do a lot more for me than doctors. If you take decent care of yourself you hardly ever have to see a doctor if ever. As far as socialized medicine though, in general I'm for it as opposed to the private system but if they start trying to force flu shots on me and make me get check-ups all the time I don't want I'd have a problem with that. Care should only be for those who want/need it, and it should be your choice what kind of treatment you want or don't want.


Why argue with your dad? Why not just love him and spend time doing things together you won't be able to do when you're an adult?

Yeah really, get all the time you can in cause when the purges come it doesn't sound like he's gonna do to well heh (joke)

[coda]

The anwer is in Marx's Labor Theory of Value.

Your father produces socially necessary labor whereas the ice cream seller does not. a better example, less specific would be a food seller or rather someone who stocks food in a grocery store. this is non skilled service labor, your father is engaged in skilled service labor. in Marxist theory, stocking food shelves for 8 hours and providing health care for 8 hours are of relative equal value because they are both providing productive labor to society. It's as simple as that basically. productive labor is the key to understanding this dilemma.

[Urko]

why do we need cleaners? Why can't the doctor just clean up their office and the place they work at.

[Hen]

The anwer is in Marx's Labor Theory of Value.

Your father produces socially necessary labor whereas the ice cream seller does not. a better example, less specific would be a food seller or rather someone who stocks food in a grocery store. this is non skilled service labor, your father is engaged in skilled service labor. in Marxist theory, stocking food shelves for 8 hours and providing health care for 8 hours are of relative equal value because they are both providing productive labor to society. It's as simple as that basically. productive labor is the key to understanding this dilemma.

It seems that Marx say's in A Critique of Political Economy that “use-value lies outside the sphere of investigation of political economy”...So the BCG vaccine is indeed more valuable than an ice-cream in terms of utility but by moral jurisdiction is not the subject of economic reward. In political economics, a contribution is a contribution.

Classical economists criticized and replaced Labour Theory of Value with their writings on 'marginal utility' that incorporated use-value into political economy. I read that only a few Marxists replied to marginalism. The most famous being Rudolf Hilferding's, Böhm-Bawerks Marx-Kritik (1904)...Anyone know about it?

[National Revolutionary]

Your dad has a point about the fact that he is " more valuable" or whatever you wish to call it then an ice cream man. It is not necessarily because he works harder but it is because it takes more time to learn to be a doctor the nit does to be an ice cream man and there are less doctors than ice cream men. Just tell him that taxation is to help those who truly need it such as the single parents, orphans, and such. Also the taxes help the government keep society on check and free schooling. Sometimes taxation is really high and that's due to the government failing :P but seriously tax's help the government. About your dad blaming the left for the economic crisis just tell him its not really the government's fault but the corruption in the banking industry.

Raul Duke garbage men are paid much more then people with jobs in the same level such as burger flipers and the such.

[iskrabronstein]

It seems that Marx say's in A Critique of Political Economy that “use-value lies outside the sphere of investigation of political economy”...So the BCG vaccine is indeed more valuable than an ice-cream in terms of utility but by moral jurisdiction is not the subject of economic reward. In political economics, a contribution is a contribution.

Classical economists criticized and replaced Labour Theory of Value with their writings on 'marginal utility' that incorporated use-value into political economy. I read that only a few Marxists replied to marginalism. The most famous being Rudolf Hilferding's, Böhm-Bawerks Marx-Kritik (1904)...Anyone know about it?

Bukharin delivered a damning critique of Bohm-Bawerk that, once I read it, pretty much settled the argument for me.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1927/leisure-economics/index.htm

The important thing to remember when considering the relative use value of various types of labor is that all socially necessary labor is interdependent - that is to say, it would be incapable of completing its function without the simultaneous existence of the other modes of production that make it possible.

The argument for equality of wages does not encompass a vulgar equation of all types of labor - it argues that the necessity of all types of labor to the functioning of society, and the marginal differences in value production between individual laborers, means that each contributing laborer should be allotted an equal portion of the social product.

In all honesty I am relatively uncommitted on the issue. I think the egalitarian arguments are far more consistent in principle, but would be difficult to see exemplified in reality without pre-existing conditions of free education and open availability of productive resources.

[Victus Mortuum]

There is a linguistic confusion going on. The OP used the word 'value' in the non-Marxist sense meaning subjective utility (what many Marxists would call the use-value). To a Marxist, the word value has a different, distinct meaning. It means specifically the amount of socially necessary labor embodied in something. So, the doctor has more value than the ice cream salesman because he has more SNL embodied in him (years of education (labor from teachers)). However, you may see the doctor as having a greater use-value, but that is simply subjective utility...

[NGNM85]

My dad voted conservative in the last election. He is a doctor. He works hard, and has done all his life, but has recently become tired of being taxed to death to pay for the rest of society.

Are taxes really the problem? I ask because this is widely misunderstood, especially among conservatives. Tax rates for Americans today are the same or lower than they were under the Bush administration. Taxes have been plummeting over the last few decades. From 1970 taxes on the wealthiest Americans are roughly three times less. The idea that lowering taxes boosts the economy is also bogus. During the most prosperous period in American history tax rates on top income earners were between about 72 and 94 percent, that's during a period of unprecedented prosparity. The real problem that's hurting people isn't taxes, although, our tax policy is incredibly unfair, and punishes Americans at the lower end of the spectrum, it's high costs and low wages. The minimum wage has been stagnating for over 30 years. Adjusted for inflation, an American blue-collar worker is making less money doing the same job as they would have in the early 70's. I suspect your dad may be operating under common misconceptions as to the source of his economic woes.