Childish Zionism from a "former leftist"

[Dean]

Yea, I suppose you could say I'm a zionist although in reality I have criticisms of both sides. Hamas(along with most of the Arab/Islamic world) will stop at nothing to see Israel wiped out. Much of this(although I doubt all) stems from blatant Anti-Semitism.
Actually, it stems from the historical character of a racist settler-state imposed as a result of European anti-semitism.

Gaza is today the most dense population on earth. This is the result of town-razing and ethnic cleansing in Israel 'proper,' and the aggregation of the native population into the West Bank and Gaza.


There are many Muslims who genuinely don't like Jews as the two groups have been warring for centuries
Actually, it has historically been Europeans attacking Jews. The Arabs nations have, in the last centuries leading up to the zionist movement, provided far more religious and ethnic autonomy for the Jewish people - going so far as to enshrine Jewish religious law as an accepted provincial legal code of the Ottoman empire.


so I think this largely influences their Anti-Israel, Pro-Hamas stance.
No, its actually just the same political posturing that we have seen in every other conflict in which the enshrined parties dictate their foreign policy on ethnic or other divisive culturalist lines. One nation makes these policies though (don't see Hamas setting up checkpoints) - and that is Israel.


I'm pretty sure Hamas does kill some civilians for propaganda purposes.
This is patently true, as it was for the Slave and Native American revolts in the US, as well as anti-apartheid 'terrorism.' But this is childish moralizing which does nothing to help explain the conflict, nor how we might resolve it.


As for Israel, I do feel the Jews have a right to reside there, being their ancestral home and needing a place where they know they can be safe from persecution
A closed, racist regime which is at odds with a militarized native population is hardly safe, but the Jews have a right to live there - they just don't have the right to steal land, water and exploit the labor of the local population - a right nobody should have, of course.


(besides, there's about 10 or so Arab countries and only one Jewish country...).
And there is no Kurdish nation nor is there a Houthi nation. I presume you'd love to inflame other ethnic tensions by militarizing humans based on ethnic background.


However, I don't agree with their seemingly Jewish supremacist attitude they have taken on. With that said, I do have criticisms of some of their actions although Hamas brings on alot of it themselves too.
Oh, you're so objective! Unfortunately, it's not Jewish nationalism. It's white nationalism, because African Jews get the shaft, as do other ethnic minorities.

Face it: Israel is the culmination of European anti-semitism which has succeeded in providing for a Jewish Ghetto in a hostile region. Israel has the second-best equipped army in the world and her population still has legitimate fears for their safety.

It's a disgusting state of affairs for the settlers and Israeli civilians who are provided lucrative opportunities to basically put themselves and their families in harms way - on a buffer zone which encroaches (note the active tense - 62 years and still expansionist!) on the land of a destitute, increasingly dense population.

And its that much worse for the Palestinians. How shameful that you stoop to blame them for the desperate acts of a weak pseudo-state, when they have lived their entire lives under the thumb of a foreign occupier.

Also, please start to actually study some of the issues you've strong opinions on. Your political survey post is simply pitiful.

[Barry Lyndon]

WTF is this Zionist shit? Did this idiot get all his information from Alan Dershowitz? Ban this asshole.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Haven't you guys heard? It's ok to be a zionist on revleft.

[Raúl Duke]

Haven't you guys heard? It's ok to be a zionist on revleft.

lol

I seriously would not take Insert's views seriously, especially if you heard a bit of the tale behind it (i.e. rapid progression/regression between religions and across the political spectrum), they're even whacky even by the youth conservative standards of SWFL. She even said she wants hard punishment related to drugs and to execute drug dealers, I really have not met a single conservative in the state of Florida who would ever say that out-right. Besides, if she even consider herself a real supporter of the free market she should be against the prohibition of all drugs, which most to all college Libertarians in my uni are to some extant. Also, I've actually met Republican druggies.

[#FF0000]

I don't really understand why people think it's okay for Israelis to be racist against arabs but palestinians being anti-semites is enough to justify dropping white phosphorous on Palestinian neighborhoods and lighting up fishing boats with heavy machine guns.

[LOLseph Stalin]

lol

She even said she wants hard punishment related to drugs and to execute drug dealers, I really have not met a single conservative in the state of Florida who would ever say that out-right.

Lol, most conservatives I have talked to are against drug legalization and support being tough on crime. I'm not trying to dogmatically fit any party line, but develop my own views based on what I believe. I'm not even really into party politics much.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I don't really understand why people think it's okay for Israelis to be racist against arabs but palestinians being anti-semites is enough to justify dropping white phosphorous on Palestinian neighborhoods and lighting up fishing boats with heavy machine guns.

The white phosphorous is actually one of the things I'm critical of.

[#FF0000]

The white phosphorous is actually one of the things I'm critical of.

That's good but I don't know how you can support Israel over Palestine. I mean I'm totally serious. I know there isn't a single thing in this world that's black and white, but like I've said before, this is really, really close. Palestinians were dispossessed and displaced, and Palestinian civilians are constantly targeted by IDF soldiers. I mean, Israel was pretty open recently saying that literally every Palestinian in Gaza/West Bank is a legitimate target.

So, yeah, I'm really serious. Why do you support Israel despite it apparently going on the warpath to exterminate every Arab outside of the Israelli ghettos?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Take this as you wish:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7536/104663792.jpg

[#FF0000]

Take this as you wish:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7536/104663792.jpg

I take it as you don't have an actual argument.

What does the Holocaust have to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians? Does it somehow vindicate the way Palestinians are treated and mistreated?

I wonder if those two million arabs lived, you know, in the rest of Palestine before 1967.

[#FF0000]

I'm extra confused, by the way, because nobody in this thread said anything about genocide.

[Dimentio]

Take this as you wish:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7536/104663792.jpg

I guess you think South African Apartheid was benevolent then also, since the number of blacks constantly increased more than the white population?

[enrici]

How was this person a leftist before? Did he just hide this really well?

[Dean]

Lol, most conservatives I have talked to are against drug legalization and support being tough on crime. I'm not trying to dogmatically fit any party line, but develop my own views based on what I believe. I'm not even really into party politics much.

You support shooting drug smugglers at the border. So is that a part of your xenophobic model, anti-free-market doctrine, or anti-drug?

[Dean]

Take this as you wish:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7536/104663792.jpg
Human rights are not measured in the aggregation of ethnicities into such dichotomies. Strictly speaking, its an issue of ethnic cleansing which doesn't necessarily even involve genocide - just the exile of people based on their race.

[BeerShaman]

Watch Occupation 101.

[Raúl Duke]

Lol, most conservatives I have talked to are against drug legalization and support being tough on crime. I'm not trying to dogmatically fit any party line, but develop my own views based on what I believe. I'm not even really into party politics much.

I guess it proves that even in Hell (I mean Florida) even the college conservative demographic are not as heavy-handed or blind towards fact (i.e. punitive measures does not "fight drug crime" it only makes it worse) as whatever it is like in Canada.

I can find quite a handful of conservatives who would be open to legalization of marijuana to some degree (mostly medical, but even recreational taxed use) and the end of punitive measures for simple drug users. Among those who are real free-marketers/Libertarian they tend towards full legalization due to market (prohibition is anti-market) and 'liberty' (cognitive liberty) principles.

Also, that position above is being held outside of what the GOP believes concerning drug laws by its own college constituents; so by you being against sensible drug policy reform and refusing to see the fact that a Portuguese model or something of that sort is more efficient, humane, and actually reduces crime and drug use, etc than a punitive model is a dogmatic perspective.


That's good but I don't know how you can support Israel over Palestine.

This reminds me of a good friend of mine. She seems somewhat fond of Israel due to her Jewish heritage but doesn't reject the fact that there's something negative going on between Palestinians and Israeli and will always be for a peaceful and just resolution (well, outside of "pushing all the Israelis into the Mediterrenean sea," but I surely hope no one here thinks that's really a "just" option) yet the whole issue is a sour one and would not exactly be vocal about it nor be harsh in criticizing Israel about it; also, she would never say she supports Palestine over Israel.

[Dimentio]

How was this person a leftist before? Did he just hide this really well?

Tomorrow, she could be a mormon.

[LOLseph Stalin]

How was this person a leftist before? Did he just hide this really well?

Nah, I was genuinely a leftist before.

As for the people wondering about my drug policy, I support the legalization of medical marijuana. As for everything else, no. I'm just very against drugs.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Tomorrow, she could be a mormon.

Don't count on it.

[Dean]

Nah, I was genuinely a leftist before.

As for the people wondering about my drug policy, I support the legalization of medical marijuana. As for everything else, no. I'm just very against drugs.

What about your statements on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Do you not care to back them up or even acknowledge the criticisms?

[Che a chara]

Yea, I suppose you could say I'm a zionist although in reality I have criticisms of both sides. Hamas(along with most of the Arab/Islamic world) will stop at nothing to see Israel wiped out. Much of this(although I doubt all) stems from blatant Anti-Semitism. There are many Muslims who genuinely don't like Jews as the two groups have been warring for centuries so I think this largely influences their Anti-Israel, Pro-Hamas stance. I'm pretty sure Hamas does kill some civilians for propaganda purposes.

As for Israel, I do feel the Jews have a right to reside there, being their ancestral home and needing a place where they know they can be safe from persecution(besides, there's about 10 or so Arab countries and only one Jewish country...). However, I don't agree with their seemingly Jewish supremacist attitude they have taken on. With that said, I do have criticisms of some of their actions although Hamas brings on alot of it themselves too.

First off, this 'anti-semitic' myth bullshit needs laid to rest. Arabs are also semitic, so by your definition and logic, the Zionists and Israeli government are anti-semitic.

Hamas' 1981 charter did call for the destruction of Israel, but I believe that since then they have become more tolerant and moderate in their opinion of Israel and Jews. Coincidently, most communists would believe in the 'destruction' of the Israeli state, as we/they believe in a one state solution. This position is typically exploited by Zionists who label those who support a one state solution as Nazis, evil and anti-semitic.

Hamas' attacks are largely in response to Israeli oppression and war crimes. Of course Jews have the right to live there, but they where given their land, and since then the Israeli government has continued illegally to expand their borders, and slaughter any protester or liberator that gets in their way.

Zionists are the most anti-semitic people on the planet ..... they support policies that place the Israeli people at risk and attracts hostilities towards them.

Most of this has been explained in this this thread anyway:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/origins-israel-t139505/index.html

p.s. Can I ask what other reasons are there for you to turn conservative ?

[Che a chara]

Also as a (ex) leftie, I would have thought you would support the oppressed and the occupied, i.e. Hamas and the Palestine people.

Israel are not oppressed.

[synthesis]

When political organizations call for the "destruction of Israel," it's not because there's the possibility that they could actually carry it out. It's because people want to hear it, and because it gets those organizations support from those people.

People really do hate Israel, not because of some sort of ancient sibling rivalry or whatever. They hate Israel because IDF members routinely do drive-by shootings on schools and hospitals in the West Bank - it's just a fact of life there - and because of the settlers, and because of displacement, massacres, and exploitation.

So when someone comes along and promises to "drive them into the sea," they respond positively. It's only "anti-Semitism" in form. In substance, it is the drive for liberation.

[Dimentio]

Don't count on it.

The transition from socialism to conservatism is a very steep one indeed.

[hatzel]

I wonder if those two million arabs lived, you know, in the rest of Palestine before 1967.

Just for the sake of clarification, I guess I can throw out some numbers. I'm not making any statement related to the numbers, I just thought it might be useful for addressing what, if anything, this means. I don't like the graph, by the way, but here I have collected and worked out some demographic information for the whole area between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea, for a comparison between 1917 (Balfour declaration), 1947 (declaration of Israeli independence) and the present day:



1917
Muslim: 547.000 (78%)
Jewish: 76.000 (11%)
Christian: 77.000 (11%)
Total: 700.000 (100%)

1947
Muslim: 1.181.000 (60%)
Jewish: 630.000 (32%)
Christian: 143.000 (7%)
Total: 1.970.000 (100%)

2010
Muslim: 4.811.000 (41%)
Jewish: 6.132.000 (53%)
Christian: 410.000 (3,5%)
Total: 11.640.000 (100%)



I know that some of the numbers don't quite add up to the totals. This is mainly because there are 'others', namely the Druze. I believe that, in the earlier surveys, they were counted with the Muslims, whilst in the most recent (and most accurate), they are counted as 'other'. In case anybody was feeling like debating the figures for not adding up, it's not my fault. This is my own research, based on various sources, but I'm sure somebody else has worked it out, if you want to independently verify my figured :thumbup1:

[Dean]

JI know that some of the numbers don't quite add up to the totals. This is mainly because there are 'others', namely the Druze. I believe that, in the earlier surveys, they were counted with the Muslims, whilst in the most recent (and most accurate), they are counted as 'other'. In case anybody was feeling like debating the figures for not adding up, it's not my fault. This is my own research, based on various sources, but I'm sure somebody else has worked it out, if you want to independently verify my figured :thumbup1:
Not to denigrate you or your project, but exactly what value does ethnic statistics play in the characterization of the conflict, when they don't seem to relate in any concrete manner to any particular models of state or economic facts?

[hatzel]

Oh, and, incidentally:


First off, this 'anti-semitic' myth bullshit needs laid to rest. Arabs are also semitic, so by your definition and logic, the Zionists and Israeli government are anti-semitic.

Semantics. Blame the Germans, they were the ones who started calling Jews 'Semites', and hence antisemitism wouldn't really encompass Arabs, the Maltese or anything like that. Though perhaps it should. Feel free to come up with a new term for it, though, something less ambiguous...


This position is typically exploited by Zionists who label those who support a one state solution as Nazis, evil and anti-semitic.

Technically speaking, if we're working on alternate interpretations of words, those people who would be referred to as Zionists in the Jewish / Israeli community want nothing else than a one-state solution, and would consider those who would support a two-state solution as pretty evil, anti-Zionists, all that kind of stuff. And if you think these people would then advocate some kind of 'cleansing' or expulsion of Arabs from the land, then you'd be wrong*. So sure, maybe the exact nature of the intended single state wouldn't be exactly the same, but no Israeli Zionist would associate support for a single-state solution with anything negative. The Devil's in the details, though...but still, there's some shared ground between militant Zionists and 'most communists', opposition to a two-state solution. Splendid!

Oooooh, I do make myself laugh.

* I can say this as I happen to know a few Israeli Zionists and settlers through a Jewish forum, and have discussed this issue rather extensively with them.

[hatzel]

Not to denigrate you or your project, but exactly what value does ethnic statistics play in the characterization of the conflict, when they don't seem to relate in any concrete manner to any particular models of state or economic facts?

I was merely clarifying for...whoever it was who asked, and giving something slightly more informative and exact than the graph. Not because I think it actually makes any difference to anything, but just because the opportunity seemed to arise for me to throw it in there, to (almost) answer the question (sarcastically?) posed, and expand upon the graph that...ah...somebody thought was somehow relevant to something, in case they felt like explaining what said graph had to do with anything, with more exact numbers about the situation :rolleyes: Just in case there was something significant this individual wanted to say about the effect of Zionism on the the Arab population or something. Pretty much, I just thought I'd do their research for them!

[Invincible Summer]

Nah, I was genuinely a leftist before.

As for the people wondering about my drug policy, I support the legalization of medical marijuana. As for everything else, no. I'm just very against drugs.

Medical marijuana, but not just the legalization of marijuana in general?


And as for a 'genuine leftist,' I remember you saying that economically you were left, but socially conservative. I don't see how that makes one a "genuine" leftist.

[9]

Dean, I have just skimmed through this thread, but I think I agree with most of your comments. However, I think this is a somewhat strange argument to put forward:


Oh, you're so objective! Unfortunately, it's not Jewish nationalism. It's white nationalism, because African Jews get the shaft, as do other ethnic minorities.

And yet there are still Jewish settlers in Israel who are Zionists, who are there on the basis that they are Jewish, who are "ethnic minorities". Zionism is most certainly Jewish nationalism. This argument is like saying that American nationalism isn't "American nationalism", but rather, is "white nationalism", since Americans who are ethnic minorities "get the shaft". Certainly American nationalism tends to be racist. It's still American nationalism, though.

[Blackscare]

I'm not even really into party politics much.

Shocking.

[bricolage]

The Arabs nations have, in the last centuries leading up to the zionist movement, provided far more religious and ethnic autonomy for the Jewish people - going so far as to enshrine Jewish religious law as an accepted provincial legal code of the Ottoman empire.
To be fair this isn't really as true as you make out, for example Yemenite Jews were still routinely persecuted. If you are comparing this to the Third Reich then sure it'll look good but it's disingenous to say anti-semitism did not exist in the Arabian peninsula prior to Zionsim. Of course none of this excuses Israeli actions nor does it ignore the fact that the principal driving force of contemporary anti-semitism is the actions of the Israeli state and its desire to assert hegemony over Jewish identity, but it is worth mentioning if we are to be honest about this.

[hatzel]

I often cite this article (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html) in this case

Of course it's hideously biased, being from a Jewish website, but it does technically posit facts, just a particular subset of facts, in order to dispel the myths. The interesting section here would be "Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs", but the others shouldn't be ignored. The first addresses something that was raised earlier on this thread, for instance...

[Dean]

To be fair this isn't really as true as you make out, for example Yemenite Jews were still routinely persecuted. If you are comparing this to the Third Reich then sure it'll look good but it's disingenous to say anti-semitism did not exist in the Arabian peninsula prior to Zionsim. Of course none of this excuses Israeli actions nor does it ignore the fact that the principal driving force of contemporary anti-semitism is the actions of the Israeli state and its desire to assert hegemony over Jewish identity, but it is worth mentioning if we are to be honest about this.
I wasn't saying this at all. The point was two-fold:
-to explain the relative autonomy enjoyed by the Jewish community under Ottoman rule at a particular time
-to dispel the myth of "Jewish-Arab historical rivalry." In fact, as I point out, Jewish oppression seems to primarily come from Europe, especially in the recent few hundred years.

[Dean]

And yet there are still Jewish settlers in Israel who are Zionists, who are there on the basis that they are Jewish, who are "ethnic minorities". Zionism is most certainly Jewish nationalism. This argument is like saying that American nationalism isn't "American nationalism", but rather, is "white nationalism", since Americans who are ethnic minorities "get the shaft". Certainly American nationalism tends to be racist. It's still American nationalism, though.

The Nazi regime conferred a few notable positions to Jews on account of their importance. In fact, I don't think you can find a single racist regime which was universally principled in its attacks on particular groups.

[Dimentio]

To be fair this isn't really as true as you make out, for example Yemenite Jews were still routinely persecuted. If you are comparing this to the Third Reich then sure it'll look good but it's disingenous to say anti-semitism did not exist in the Arabian peninsula prior to Zionsim. Of course none of this excuses Israeli actions nor does it ignore the fact that the principal driving force of contemporary anti-semitism is the actions of the Israeli state and its desire to assert hegemony over Jewish identity, but it is worth mentioning if we are to be honest about this.

Antisemitism is very popular in the Arab world today, but wasn't so popular in the 20th century. In the cases were persecutions of Jews happened, it wasn't because they "killed Christ", "poisoned the wells" or "plans to create a global communist dictatorship under the control of the international banking cartel", it was often because of clan-related local issues.

Racism against Jews need to be separated from antisemitism. Antisemitism is a discourse and a myth which claims that the Jews are in possession of some kind of hive mind and wants to destroy civilisation. To state that Jews are "greedy" or are in "the heroin business" is just ordinary old-school prejudice which could hit any group.

[Red Eagles]

Also as a (ex) leftie, I would have thought you would support the oppressed and the occupied, i.e. Hamas and the Palestine people.

Israel are not oppressed.i don't support hamas.it's not about this or that political party.

[Red Eagles]

I often cite this article in this case[UNABLE TO POST HIS LINK]

Of course it's hideously biased, being from a Jewish website, but it does technically posit facts, just a particular subset of facts, in order to dispel the myths. The interesting section here would be "Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs", but the others shouldn't be ignored. The first addresses something that was raised earlier on this thread, for instance...
it's not a "jewish website".it's politcally right wing Zionist,i can't believe you actually posted that on a leftwing website.shame on you

[Sam_b]

It's probably worth pointing out that this user supported a two-state solution (IIRC) when she was posting as a 'sympathiser of the IMT'. To be honest, I can't remember which week she was that though.

[Bud Struggle]

It's probably worth pointing out that this user supported a two-state solution (IIRC) when she was posting as a 'sympathiser of the IMT'. To be honest, I can't remember which week she was that though.

I personally think a one secular state solution is best. Two states would work but it would need a good deal of international supervision so the Palestinian state doesn't turn into a holding pen.

What is the Communista concensus on this? I've never seem to pin it down.

[#FF0000]

I'm pretty sure most groups support a single secular state

[mosfeld]

InsertNameHere has always been a reactionary :)

[hatzel]

it's not a "jewish website".it's politcally right wing Zionist,i can't believe you actually posted that on a leftwing website.shame on you

Care to tell me why it matters? It's not my fault Electronic Intifada haven't posted a decent article highlighting anti-Jewish actions in the Arab / Islamic world, is it? Had they done so, I could have linked there instead. Fact of the matter is, though, that I haven't found a better and more easily-digestible article covering this topic anywhere on the internet, which is why I posted it, complete with acknowledgement that it wasn't necessarily balanced, as it still puts out the important facts that we might want to take into consideration. Feel free to do your own personal research into each of the events or comments mentioned, though, if you believe them to be false.

That said, is there a decent reason why we should disregard facts posited by a 'politically incorrect' website or individual? In fact, I think that a lot of anti-Zionists might be very pleased to use their statistics (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vitaltoc.html) page as a source. Particularly the very extensive sections about US-Israel cooperation. Quoting such numbers might be very good in anti-Zionist arguments, proving American bias and so on. Though, for some reason, that's no longer possible...I will be deeply offended if any of these figures are quoted by anybody in any form of anti-Zionist argument :thumbdown:

Please explain why anybody should be limited to only using 'politically correct' (read: biased in the 'right' direction) secondary sources, and ignoring any suggestion of anybody else ever providing anything of any use to us.

[RGacky3]

personally think a one secular state solution is best. Two states would work but it would need a good deal of international supervision so the Palestinian state doesn't turn into a holding pen.

What is the Communista concensus on this? I've never seem to pin it down.

If there was equal rights for palestinians, then yeah, but theres no way thats gonna happen, Isreal would NEVER allow it.

[Bud Struggle]

If there was equal rights for palestinians, then yeah, but theres no way thats gonna happen, Isreal would NEVER allow it.

Well Palestinians that are citizens of Israel, I think it's about 10% of the population, aren't treated too badly. They aren't treated as full and equal, but they are certainly treated better than West Bankers and the people in Gaza. But they are a minority and as long as they don't threaten the ruling government--Israel can afford to be "magnanimous."

[Che a chara]

Even though it is a hijacking of the term 'anti-semitic' just to relate to the Jews, i'd be happy enough to use it for this purpose. But it needs to noted that Islamophobia is the exact same offence, and is popular within Zionism and certain educational authorities.

But it is very easy for pro-Israeli's to use the anti-semitic slur on their opponents when it is quite clear that it is an anti-zionist position. Many Palestinian civilians show nothing but love for Jews, but oppose the Israeli regime and it's policies, and this is normally passed of as anti-semitism, the same goes for other Arab nations and peoples who hold the same views on Zionism, but have respect for Jews. Of course there is also blatant displays of anti-semitism within these communities too.

I can only see a 2 state solution as the endgame. but there is only one aggressor and instigator of rebellion, and the is the Israeli government and the American puppets. As I said before, the occupied are the oppressed.

Fanon's (a marxist) 'The Wretched of the Earth' explains from a psychosocial perspective the effects of occupation, colonisation and imperialism can have on people, and this might give some understanding to the violence you see from occupied peoples around the world.

[#FF0000]

I don't understand. Why do people think a two state solution is a good idea?

[Che a chara]

I don't understand. Why do people think a two state solution is a good idea?

I'm not saying that a 2 state solution is a good idea, just that in reality that's all that will happen.

Do you think the massive religious divide between the two will be overcome ? As long as the bible is used as a reference and as some sort of law, then Zionism will continue to claim a stake for that land, and with the mass support from not only Christians worldwide, but the American government, as they see Israel as central for their military base and influence in the middle east, which I see as the biggest threat to a proper and peaceful solution of a single secular joint state.

[#FF0000]

I'm not saying that a 2 state solution is a good idea, just that in reality that's all that will happen.

Do you think the massive religious divide between the two will be overcome ? As long as the bible is used as a reference and as some sort of law, then Zionism will continue to claim a stake for that land, and with the mass support from not only Christians worldwide, but the American government, as they see Israel as central for their military base and influence in the middle east, which I see as the biggest threat to a proper and peaceful solution of a single secular joint state.

I think a single state can work. Have a government organized like Lebanon's.

[hatzel]

I think a single state can work. Have a government organized like Lebanon's.

Perhaps, but there are issues with Lebanon's system, in that the demographics have changed, and will continue to change. Although not a huge issue now (don't tell that to certain Lebanese people, though, because they'd strongly disagree :rolleyes:), it could easily become a problem if a previously larger population shrinks, but retains its political power, its monopoly on a certain position etc. And even if the Christian population of Lebanon sank down to 10% or even less...well, I don't think they'll take too kindly if the suggestion is made to strip them of the presidency and guaranteed seats in parliament. I guess another issue would be immigration. If a million Hindus, for some reason, moved into Lebanon, they'd be excluded from a great many posts dedicated to each specific population. Unless a position is stripped from another population to give to this new one, but that wouldn't go down well, as mentioned...both situations could be enough to spark civil war between the various groups.

As a starting point, though, it could be somewhat useful, I'll give you that. With some serious modifications, that is...

[danyboy27]

Bha, dont worry everyone, insertnamehere gonna be a leftist again, its just a matter of time before he realize the politics he praise are shit or status quo shit.

i had a similar shift too here, at first, i was a stalinist, then a social democrat, then a communist.

its only when i realized thru Pure logical thinking that stuff like social democrat or conservative are not really resolving the problem.

When you have been a leftist out of sheer emotion, big shift can happen abruptly, and then, when the logical thinking kick in, the true nature of an individual appear.

i dont think insertnamehere have finished its journey in the realm of politics, and it would be wrong to assume he gonna be a conservative forever.