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View Full Version : If anyone tells you that austerity is needed, remind them we could...



durhamleft
15th September 2010, 16:37
pull back the national debt in 1 year by a one of tax on the richest in society.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/15/deficit-crisis-tax-the-rich


How can the sixth richest nation in the world be contemplating cuts in school meals services and regressive forms of taxation? In the political and media commentaries on the national crisis and the need for cuts, there has been very little discussion on how much wealth there is and why "we" as a nation are apparently so poor. Actually the economy keeps growing, and we are becoming richer than we were before the financial crisis.

The total personal wealth in the UK is £9,000bn, a sum that dwarfs the national debt. It is mostly concentrated at the top, so the richest 10% own £4,000bn, with an average per household of £4m. The bottom half of our society own just 9%. The wealthiest hold the bulk of their money in property or pensions, and some in financial assets and objects such antiques and paintings.

A one-off tax of just 20% on the wealth of this group would pay the national debt and dramatically reduce the deficit, since interest payments on the debt are a large part of government spending. So that is what should be done. This tax of 20%, graduated so the very richest paid the most, would raise £800bn. A major positive for this scheme is that the tax would not have to be immediately paid. The richest 10% have only to assume liability for their small part of the debt. They can pay a low rate of interest on it and if they wish make it a charge on their property when they die. It would be akin to a student loan for the rich.

The tax would be extremely popular. We commissioned a YouGov poll of over 2,000 people to test attitudes. There was very strong support, with 74% of the population approving (44% strongly approving). Only 10% did not approve, and agreement was spread right through social groups, with those of the highest income being slightly more supportive than the lower. The strongest support came from those over the age of 55, with 77% in favour (47% strongly). This is an extraordinary result given that there has been no public discussion of this proposal and that the very negative consequences of the alternatives are only just beginning to emerge.

There are strong economic arguments for this tax. A key problem for the British economy is that much of the nation's resources have been directed into inflated property values, which is where many of the bonuses ended up. This is in effect dead money but the tax would have the effect of re-circulating it as government spending, which could stimulate growth. The deficit would thus be further reduced as the unemployment resulting from the proposed cuts would be avoided – thus no increase in unemployment pay and no loss in tax revenue from the unemployed. This proposal offers a real alternative, to move debt off the government's books, using money that is largely trapped in the housing market, from people who will not miss it.

There will be arguments against it. It will be asked whether such a tax can be collected, but it is easier in some ways than income tax. The rich tend to minimise their declared income, but wealth is more publicly displayed, whether it is multiple properties or million-pound rings from Graff. Will they take their money somewhere else? It seems unlikely that the top 6 million people will up sticks to live in Belize. The current rhetoric of crisis, national interest and "everyone must share the pain" will contribute to demands for strict enforcement. If people have substantial assets, want to live here and to be British, then they will have to pay their bit. The public will have little time for non-doms, exiles or what will be seen as unacceptable attempts at avoidance. It is economic war, as Vince Cable says, but this is a move away from using the poor as cannon fodder.

At present David Cameron is arguing for policies that may radically reduce growth, put up unemployment and affect the bottom 6 million people hardest – those who literally have no wealth at all. He is doing this when the Conservatives received just 3% more votes in this year's election than they did in 2005. There is no popular mandate for what is being proposed, certainly not from those who voted Liberal Democrat. The consequence of what they are doing is likely to be serious social unrest. The British people are not passive and it is a myth that they will accept policies that they see as profoundly unfair. The new Tories might look back and remember what happened to the poll tax.

We need to not only educate people about the socialist alternative to the mess capitalism has caused, but also make sure they know that there is nothing 'progressive' about these cuts!

Vladimir Innit Lenin
15th September 2010, 20:47
I'm not sure your figures are correct.

The bottom 90% of people in this country, I believe, earn less than £44,000 per year. I doubt that the richest 10% are worth £4m each, or anything near. Perhaps you mean the top 1%, comrade?

In any case, I do agree with the thrust of your article, there is a clear alternative to 'cuts, cuts, cuts' and it is so frustrating that nobody in the public eye has bothered - or wants - to challenge the dogmatic economic orthodoxy that has prevailed, that the argument is about what cuts, how fast and how deep, as opposed to a genuine debate that could and should have been had on how to bring down the deficit.

It is clear that the UKs finances are not in the best shape. There is a fairly large deficit, but it is manageable. If we focused on recovering unpaid tax, taxed bonuses for the duration of this parliament or (god forbid!) had employees, trade unionists and government officials on remuneration committees to make sure that bonuses were not paid for poor performance and exorbitant wages were reined in, the deficit would be down in no time, with some very minor additional measures (transaction levies, financial services company profit taxes etc.) the deficit would be reduced to more than manageable levels.

It's sad that the above is no more than leftish state intervention, it is moderate and rational to the extreme, yet the idea of bank levies, caps on bonuses etc., are seen as on the extreme side of the debate. We really are in the shit.

durhamleft
15th September 2010, 21:24
I'm not sure your figures are correct.

The bottom 90% of people in this country, I believe, earn less than £44,000 per year. I doubt that the richest 10% are worth £4m each, or anything near. Perhaps you mean the top 1%, comrade?

In any case, I do agree with the thrust of your article, there is a clear alternative to 'cuts, cuts, cuts' and it is so frustrating that nobody in the public eye has bothered - or wants - to challenge the dogmatic economic orthodoxy that has prevailed, that the argument is about what cuts, how fast and how deep, as opposed to a genuine debate that could and should have been had on how to bring down the deficit.

It is clear that the UKs finances are not in the best shape. There is a fairly large deficit, but it is manageable. If we focused on recovering unpaid tax, taxed bonuses for the duration of this parliament or (god forbid!) had employees, trade unionists and government officials on remuneration committees to make sure that bonuses were not paid for poor performance and exorbitant wages were reined in, the deficit would be down in no time, with some very minor additional measures (transaction levies, financial services company profit taxes etc.) the deficit would be reduced to more than manageable levels.

It's sad that the above is no more than leftish state intervention, it is moderate and rational to the extreme, yet the idea of bank levies, caps on bonuses etc., are seen as on the extreme side of the debate. We really are in the shit.

Hi comrade, the top 10% are not worth £4m each, that is their average value. It ranges from the lower end of being around 7, or 8 hundred thousand to the top end that is tens of billions. What that article would advocate is taxing them on average a one off tax of 20%, with those at the bottom paying around 10% and those at the top paying a 50 or 60 percent wealth tax.

It doesn't explain it all in that article but I have seen it being argued further on other platforms.

I agree that the solution put forward in that argument is nowhere near as strong as the argument for a socialist society, however when engaging with members of the public it means you can say not just, hey capitalism isn't the solution, but you can also say look, even if you agree with the current system, there would be ways of dealing with the systems failures without attacking the poor. I think that once people start asking those questions, they will then naturally move on towards actually questioning capitalism itself.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
16th September 2010, 19:16
In all fairness, i'm not sure a supertax on wealth, as a one off, would work. Inevitably, it would not be collected properly. In addition, it would be political suicide - there's no precedent for attacking people who, whilst majority being in the ruling class, are not all the people who caused the latest financial crisis.

It is sort of a left-wing populist measure, which I could not see working in this country. Either we stick to left-Social Democracy - taxes on earnings, taxes on various elements of the financial services industry and a fairer tax spread (including higher corporation tax, bringing the lowest earners out of the tax bracket altogether and a crackdown on tax evasion and avoidance), or we go down the route of revolution. We can do this by establishing a mass broad left movement, ranging from the Labour Party on the right (Labour, not New Labour, that is) to a Communist Party on the left. Push for reforms in Parliament whilst actively sowing the seeds of class consciousness on the ground.

red flag over teeside
17th September 2010, 15:47
To call for tax cuts or for a broad left encompassing Labour Party through to the CPB and I assume the Trotskyist parties is to totally underestimate the depth and severity of this crisis. The bourgeoise is not launching austerity across the globe for the hell of it they're doing it because their system is bankrupt. I agree we need to engage with workers in arguing for a independent class wide fightback outside the control of the unions who will sabotage any effective strike. To do this we need to recognise the lack of confidence in the working class at this moment in time which means that the response lags behind what is necessary.

Nothing Human Is Alien
17th September 2010, 16:27
More to the point is the fact that this won't happen. Capital and it's representatives in government have no interest in rational planning or meeting human need. Their sole motivation is profit. That's why they attack the living standards of billions of workers, effecting their lives greatly, when the same could be achieved by taxing a minority at the top whose lives would go on normally as they have enough to spare.

durhamleft
17th September 2010, 17:15
More to the point is the fact that this won't happen. Capital and it's representatives in government have no interest in rational planning or meeting human need. Their sole motivation is profit. That's why they attack the living standards of billions of workers, effecting their lives greatly, when the same could be achieved by taxing a minority at the top whose lives would go on normally as they have enough to spare.

No I completely agree- all I am saying is that while it is necessary to say that capitalism as the system is fundamentally broken, that does not mean we should not address that even within capitalism there are issues.

And I personally, find it a lot easier to say to members of the public that even within capitalism we could address the problems in a much fairer way, and then develop that into an anti-capitalist argument, rather than merely starting on why communism is a better system.

Regards

Nothing Human Is Alien
17th September 2010, 17:17
No, we cannot address the problems "within capitalism." That's why we need to do away with it.

durhamleft
17th September 2010, 17:25
No, we cannot address the problems "within capitalism." That's why we need to do away with it.

If someone comes up to you on the street and says 'don't we need to cut the deficit?' I personally believe the best response is to say 'if you accept the capitalist system then the answer is yes, however what you must consider is that this deficit could be cut in a day by taxing the rich and chasing tax evasion and avoidance by the richest however this will never happen because they are more interested in looking after the elites than the working and middle class and therefore you must see the inherit unfairness in capitalism and therefore the socialist alternative I would put forward would be fairer'.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
27th September 2010, 11:44
The point here is that the deficit does need to be cut. That's simple economics, whether you are Socialist or Capitalist.

However, there seems to have become a modus operandi whereby it has become accepted that cutting the deficit = cutting jobs, public services. That is not the case.

A far quicker, economically literate and less painful way of cutting the deficit is to economically re-order society whereby those who caused this crisis, and those who tend to cause the everyday crises of workers, pay back the money that the taxpayer invested in saving the banks. £175 billion, to be precise.