Home of Lesbian Couple in Knoxville, Tennessee, Burned To The Ground

[Sasha]

Lesbian couple in Vonore says house fire is hate crime

Posted: Sep 10, 2010 11:14 PM

http://wate.images.worldnow.com/images/13134384_BG1.jpg
At the time of the fire, the couple was in Nashville celebrating their fifth anniversary in Tennessee.
http://wate.images.worldnow.com/images/13134384_BG2.jpg Their garage was spray painted as well.






By JOSH AULT (http://wate.net/wate/anchors-reporters/josh-ault)
6 News Reporter
VONORE (WATE) - The home of Carol and Laura Stutte on County Road 320 in Vonore was destroyed by fire last Saturday.
The word "queers" was also spray painted in large letters on their garage.
The couple feels they're victims of a hate crime, and were targeted because they're gay. They've been together for more than 15 years.
Carol Stutte has an adult daughter from a previous relationship who also lived with them.
At the time of the fire, they were in Nashville celebrating their fifth anniversary in Tennessee.
"My daughter was supposed to be here. She was sick," Carol Stutte said. "I was grateful my baby girl didn't get killed in this fire. She would have been trapped in the basement."

The couple moved to Vonore from Oklahoma.
Carol Stutte says her partner is too afraid to come back to the property since the fire. She says they've been harassed all five years they've lived there by one neighbor.
She also says recently the neighbor threatened to kill them and burn down their house," Stutte said. "I knew we had been threatened, but we never thought anything would be followed through,"
Lora Black, the Stutte's neighbor and friend, was with the couple in Nashville when they learned their home was on fire.

"Right now, they are just terrified that our county is feeling like this about homosexual couples. Most homosexual couples are no different than any other couples," Black said.
The Stuttes are staying in a safe house until investigators can determine what happened the night of the fire.

"I would really like to see them get help," Carol Stutte said. "I don't want anyone else to go through what we've gone through and live through the fear we've gone through."
The couple says they have no plans to return to the property.
The Monroe County Sheriff's Office is still investigating the fire, trying to determine if it was a hate crime. Investigators have called in the state Bomb and Arson Squad to help.
The sheriff's office received one complaint of harassment from the couple in August.
The neighbor the Stuttes say made the threat declined to go on camera.



source, with video here: http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=13134384

help campaing organised here: http://knoxvillepridefest.com/2010/09/10/lesbian-couple-burned-out-of-home-you-can-help

[Tablo]

That stuff is common down south. It happens in more hateful communities to gay and black families. Very sad that this happened to them. Hopefully the sheriff will be on their side and do a proper investigation.

[Klaatu]

It is a safe bet that the arsonists involved are probably the same people who go around preaching about their own "rights."

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

It is a safe bet that the arsonists involved are probably the same people who go around preaching about their own "rights."

Without doubt, especially since these same people feel morally inclined by "God" to go after and destroy the lives of people that they see as being "evil."

[Slav92]

Disgusting.

What possibly invades the minds of these people? "They may be minding their own business, not affecting me in any way and pose no threat to me in the slightest, but damn it they need to burn".

Hate crimes should carry a life sentance.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

That stuff is common down south. It happens in more hateful communities to gay and black families. Very sad that this happened to them. Hopefully the sheriff will be on their side and do a proper investigation.
It's common everywhere.

[the last donut of the night]

Fucking bastards. It really pisses me off how the media plays off the actual incident, saying that the couple feel it was a hate crime, when well, the word "QUEER" was spraypainted on the house itself.

I want to see these arsonists burn.

[x371322]

Knoxville is just around an hour south of me. I hadn't heard about this. Fucking disgraceful. I love living in the south and all, but this makes me ashamed to call this place home. I hope they rot in jail.

[Jazzhands]

I want to see these arsonists burn.

:wub:irony.

seriously, this is the same place that protested a mosque being built there and was used as an example for why you can't just build the ground zero one somewhere else. I have no idea why anyone here would even fantasize that the cops would be on the side of the victims, since they're statistically more likely to be racist, bigoted assholes stuck in Reconstruction like the rest of the population.

[DragonQuestWes]

Just what we need. More homophobes.

If these arsonists hate gays so much, then they're going to hate the prison showers a whole lot. Chances are they'd probably assume that the rapists would be gay.

[gorillafuck]

It's common everywhere.
This sort of attitude is everywhere but it is manifested in a more frequently violent way deeper south.

[bcbm]

the way people here glibly talk about people getting sent to jail and raped is pretty fucked.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I was thinking the same thing actually.

It's a weird statement on our culture that male-on-female sexual assault is totally taboo to joke about, but male-on-male sexual assault is a punchline.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

This sort of attitude is everywhere but it is manifested in a more frequently violent way deeper south.
It's everywhere all too much and too often. I have been fucked with, attacked and had my life threatened many times here in Wisconsin (in the northern midwest, not the south) for being trans. Many people I know have dealt with the same shit here. It is everywhere. There has been murder and violence on extreme levels in more places than people notice. Violence is unfortunately frequent no matter what city, state or region we live in for some of us.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

This sort of attitude is everywhere but it is manifested in a more frequently violent way deeper south.

I disagree, for example the NYPD is notorious for harassing and attacking queers.

In her autobiography Assata Shakur implies that New Jersey has more racial violence than the Deep South. (Admittedly that was several decades ago)

Emotions run high when these sort of atrocities occur, but "otherizing" Southerners will in no way contribute to anyone's liberation, it just adds to the festering heap of inhuman bigotry. Keep in mind the targets of this attack were also individuals who chose to live in the South, it's idiotic to assume they would be safer if they moved to a yuppie queer enclave in San Francisco. (For one thing they'd probably wouldn't be able to afford rent or groceries...)

[counterblast]

This sort of attitude is everywhere but it is manifested in a more frequently violent way deeper south.


No. Its manifested a more blatent manner in the south, but not more frequently.

[counterblast]

Knoxville is just around an hour south of me. I hadn't heard about this. Fucking disgraceful. I love living in the south and all, but this makes me ashamed to call this place home. I hope they rot in jail.

Yes, the prison industrial complex fixes all of our problems. :rolleyes:

[Red Commissar]

Fucking bastards. It really pisses me off how the media plays off the actual incident, saying that the couple feel it was a hate crime, when well, the word "QUEER" was spraypainted on the house itself.

I want to see these arsonists burn.

I noticed that too. Apparently it's only the opinion of the victim that it's a hate crime despite its signs being so obvious.

[x371322]

Yes, the prison industrial complex fixes all of our problems. :rolleyes:

The fuck? I never said it did. Please don't misconstrue my statements. I only said I'd like to see them get life in prison. What alternative do you suggest in our capitalist society? Let them get off free? :rolleyes: ...See, I can roll my eyes too. See how cool it makes me?

[Queercommie Girl]

The fuck? I never said it did. Please don't misconstrue my statements. I only said I'd like to see them get life in prison. What alternative do you suggest in our capitalist society? Let them get off free? :rolleyes: ...See, I can roll my eyes too. See how cool it makes me?

Hey, you can't roll eyes as good as I can!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Adi Shankara]

Without doubt, especially since these same people feel morally inclined by "God" to go after and destroy the lives of people that they see as being "evil."

Because only religious people can be homophobic, right? Thank you for reminding me that every last atheist on earth is a paragon of virtue, free from the restraints of homophobia and racism. :rolleyes:

[Red Commissar]

In a place like Tennessee though, that probably is the case. Religion shapes a lot of people's outlooks, particularly in a place in the bible belt. It's a significant part of their culture. Religious worship here is more geared towards traditional social values and not so much focused on personal enlightenment or good will. Most of the parishioners in those areas know this and want to find a way to shape their congregation into a political force, and that means channeling and focusing into social standards while preserving an unjust economic order.

Unfortunately many times this will spill over into violence.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Hey, you can't roll eyes as good as I can!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

eye rolling is alright, but over rated. I prefer laughing. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh:

[Jazzratt]

Because only religious people can be homophobic, right? Thank you for reminding me that every last atheist on earth is a paragon of virtue, free from the restraints of homophobia and racism. :rolleyes:

Oh for fuck's sake get the fuck over yourself you tedious wankspider.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I knew a lesbian couple who lived in a small town in New Hampshire and ran a bed and breakfast on a property of several acres and a woodlot. Most of the townspeople were far right wing and were homophobic. Despite this they had a rough "live and let live" tolerance. As long as people didn't bother anybody else...

This tolerance did not extend to one of their neighbors, a mean and bitterly homophobic guy. This guy would take shots at these women with a rifle while they were walking the perimeter of their property. This wasn't meant to kill them but scare them. The rifle shots got closer and closer to their house, making it difficult to walk outside.

Unbeknownst to the homophobe, one of the women had military training. There was a viewing tower in the woodlot. On several nights this woman, using an infrared scope, would take potshots at the guy's house. The homophobe quickly stopped his harassment.

This became an issue in the town, although I don't know the details. The townspeople, despite being right wing homophobes themselves, defended the women. "They're lesbians, but they're our lesbians" was the general idea.The nasty neighbor was eventually convinced to sell off and move.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Although parts of the southern US has its own system of hierarchical social control dating back from before the Civil War, intolerance can exist anywhere. I have heard horror stories of harassment and abuse against lgbt people in "liberal" or "progressive" areas of the US such as the SF Bay area and Boston.

[Adi Shankara]

Oh for fuck's sake get the fuck over yourself you tedious wankspider.

random acts of hostility...? :( :confused:

[Jazzratt]

random acts of hostility...? :( :confused: It's just infuraiting how every time I see a comment even vaguely critical of religion or the religious I know you or some other, equally worthless, lackwit is going to bumble in and make asinine comments like yours. It's especially infuriating in this thread because religion is definately a major part of the problem here, I'm in fact prepared to lay money on the fact that these people felt morally justified because they were killing queers for jesus.

This is why I think you're a tedious wankspider and this is why you should get the fuck over yourself.

[Red Commissar]

Although parts of the southern US has its own system of hierarchical social control dating back from before the Civil War, intolerance can exist anywhere. I have heard horror stories of harassment and abuse against lgbt people in "liberal" or "progressive" areas of the US such as the SF Bay area and Boston.

Of course. It isn't really as if lgbt people have many, if any guaranteed, areas they can live unharassed beyond living among their own communities for safety and support. There's going to be prejudice below the surface anywhere.

Though at least in some areas they can find support through legal means and within certain communities. It would be great however if these acts can be prevented in the first place.

[Queercommie Girl]

Of course. It isn't really as if lgbt people have many, if any guaranteed, areas they can live unharassed beyond living among their own communities for safety and support. There's going to be prejudice below the surface anywhere.

Though at least in some areas they can find support through legal means and within certain communities. It would be great however if these acts can be prevented in the first place.

Sorry, but it's almost as if you sound like this is a "given fact", in the sense that it is utopian to hope for a society that is completely free of homophobia and transphobia.

[Adi Shankara]

It's just infuraiting how every time I see a comment even vaguely critical of religion or the religious I know you or some other, equally worthless, lackwit is going to bumble in and make asinine comments like yours.

It's almost as annoying whenever someone mentions religion, some atheist fuckwit comes out of the woodpile to say "religion sucks lolz". Take for example, the lesbian's house burnt down: we don't even know if religion played a factor, and yet everyone is immediately assuming such (it could be a possibility, but they're doing exactly what you're accusing me of; sorry to rain on your atheist pity parade)

It's especially infuriating in this thread because religion is definately a major part of the problem here, I'm in fact prepared to lay money on the fact that these people felt morally justified because they were killing queers for jesus.

This is why I think you're a tedious wankspider and this is why you should get the fuck over yourself.[/QUOTE]

homosexuality is accepted in Buddhism and Confucianism, for example, but that doesn't mean homophobia is nonexistent in such regions where Buddhism is the majority (I'm specifically thinking China, North Korea, Burma and Mongolia). What does this prove? That people will do what they want no matter what religion says.

Afterall, Enver Hoxha's government was strongly and virulently homophobic, and his Albania was one of the few officially atheist nations on earth. So I don't know actually where you claim your moral high ground from.

tl;dr: Sorry I ruined your little "it's religion lolz" party, and reminded you that atheists can be homophobic as well.

[Jazzratt]

It's almost as annoying whenever someone mentions religion, some atheist fuckwit comes out of the woodpile to say "religion sucks lolz". I see what you did there.


Take for example, the lesbian's house burnt down: we don't even know if religion played a factor, and yet everyone is immediately assuming such (it could be a possibility, but they're doing exactly what you're accusing me of; sorry to rain on your atheist pity parade) You're deluded if you think that religion had nothing to do with a homophobic attack in fucking Tennessee.Do you think that when people want to teach ID in Bumblefuck, Arkansas that has nothing to do with religion either? It goes from it being a "possibility" that religion was a factor here to a total certainty.


homosexuality is accepted in Buddhism and Confucianism Good for them.


for example, but that doesn't mean homophobia is nonexistent in such regions where Buddhism is the majority (I'm specifically thinking China, North Korea, Burma and Mongolia). What does this prove? That people will do what they want no matter what religion says.
You're missing the point, possibly because you're fucking stupid. People might be homophobic in spite of their religions teachings, but are less likely to be whereas in religions where being a bigot is openely encouraged people are far more likely to be bigoted. Claiming that religious moral attitudes have nothing to do with people's belief systems is fucking stupid. How do you suggest these things come about, at fucking random? Bellend.


Afterall, Enver Hoxha's government was strongly and virulently homophobic, and his Albania was one of the few officially atheist nations on earth. So I don't know actually where you claim your moral high ground from. Oh for fuck's sake, not this bullshit. Look dipshit the difference between Hoxha or any other atheist being homophobic is that homophobia has nothing to do with atheism. Athesim makles no moral statements on homosexeuality, individual atheists might but there is no binding doctrine which is largely homophobic. Unlike religious homophobes who nearly always take their cues from their faiths.


tl;dr: Sorry I ruined your little "it's religion lolz" party, and reminded you that atheists can be homophobic as well. You bravely knocked down a strawman, that must have been tough. Maybe one day you'll find someone who said "atheists can't be homophobic". In the mean time I feel quite comfortable laying the blame for this squarely at the feet of the brand of ranty religion found in the region because you've done nothing to convince me otherwise and have simply spluttered outraged irrelevences. So fuck you.

[Communist Pear]

When I was in Knoxville, I already got the impression it was filled with religious loonies. Being open-minded and from the Netherlands does not mix great with that place. I am happy that things like this don't happen on a regular basis here and I hope the police will track down the ones guilty, even though that might be quite unlikely.

[Adi Shankara]

I see what you did there.

quoting 4chan, how original.


You're deluded if you think that religion had nothing to do with a homophobic attack in fucking Tennessee.Do you think that when people want to teach ID in Bumblefuck, Arkansas that has nothing to do with religion either? It goes from it being a "possibility" that religion was a factor here to a total certainty.

Since the burden of proof is on you for making the claim, prove it. Right now. prove right now that this particular case has a 100% certainty of religious involvement.




You're missing the point, possibly because you're fucking stupid.

Grow up. you sound like a kid on a school yard.


People might be homophobic in spite of their religions teachings, but are less likely to be whereas in religions where being a bigot is openely encouraged people are far more likely to be bigoted.

Yet another thing you must prove, oh-so objective one :rolleyes:



Claiming that religious moral attitudes have nothing to do with people's belief systems is fucking stupid. How do you suggest these things come about, at fucking random? Bellend.

I never said they didn't.

Oh for fuck's sake, not this bullshit.
Look dipshit the difference between Hoxha or any other atheist being homophobic is that homophobia has nothing to do with atheism.

homophobia has little to do with Christianity either. Christianity has homophobic elements, but that's not the main message of it. other religions like hinduism and buddhism (which have something like 1,300,000,000 believers alone world wide) don't even mention homosexuality at all. once again, nice strawman, for some religions don't even mention homosexuality. fool.


Athesim makles no moral statements on homosexeuality, individual atheists might but there is no binding doctrine which is largely homophobic. Unlike religious homophobes who nearly always take their cues from their faiths.

Yet another completely idiotic statement. you just keep shitting out "facts" without any proof at all, yet you accuse me of doing the same. I can't believe they let such idiots be admin.



You bravely knocked down a strawman, that must have been tough.

actually, I knocked down a few, seeing as they keep shitting out of your mind.


In the mean time I feel quite comfortable laying the blame for this squarely at the feet of the brand of ranty religion found in the region because you've done nothing to convince me otherwise and have simply spluttered outraged irrelevences. So fuck you.

hrm...I always thought atheists demanded proof for everything and believed in objectivity? :rolleyes: thanks for proving me wrong, moron.

[Queercommie Girl]

homosexuality is accepted in Buddhism and Confucianism,


Homosexuality is not accepted in Confucianism. In fact during certain periods of ancient China homosexuality was explicitly outlawed just like it was in feudal Europe. Nor is homosexuality accepted in Northern Buddhism (Mahayana schools of Northeast Asia) which is heavily influenced by Confucianism and Chinese Philosophy.

Stop romanticising "eastern" religions. Here is a clue for you: I am Chinese and Confucianism is an integral part of Chinese culture. Yet I cannot even tell my parents I'm queer, whereas one of my friends who has Christian fundamentalist parents can tell her parents. So judging from this it would seem that in some cases Confucianism, an "eastern" religion, is even more homophobic/transphobic than Christian fundamentalism is, unless you start accusing my family for "not being Chinese/Confucian enough".

Clue no. 2: Western new-age kids don't really know anything about "eastern" religions like they think they do.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Religion has played a huge part in creating and whipping up homophobia, there's no way around this. We can see this playing out in Uganda today.Obviously not all Christians, not all church groups, and not all religions or religious people are homophobic. I know lgbt Protestant clergy. Nevertheless it has been a tenet of Christianity that "homosexuality is a sin".This is reinterpreted by liberal Christians (rightfully so) but is still upheld by Christian fundamentalists. About 30% of the US population regard themselves as "born again".

We have to take a materialist view of this. Religion reflects, and then reinforces, what is happening in society. After the onslaught of neo-liberalism and the atomization of US and other societies, the family unit is seen as a means of survival. Churches also provide sources of affiliation, dating pools,a sense of purpose, and mutual aid networks all of which can be hard to find elsewhere. Reflecting a perceived need to reinforce "family values" churches reflect and reinforce a means of conservative, anti-sexual social control.

The answer isn't always a frontal assault on religion ,although there are cases where that may be necessary -local preachers encouraging homophobia should be called out on this. The answer is working for working class empowerment and solidarity regardless of who one chooses to sleep with.

[Adi Shankara]

Homosexuality is not accepted in Confucianism. In fact during certain periods of ancient China homosexuality was explicitly outlawed just like it was in feudal Europe. Nor is homosexuality accepted in Northern Buddhism (Mahayana schools of Northeast Asia) which is heavily influenced by Confucianism and Chinese Philosophy.

Stop romanticising "eastern" religions. Here is a clue for you: I am Chinese and Confucianism is an integral part of Chinese culture. Yet I cannot even tell my parents I'm queer, whereas one of my friends who has Christian fundamentalist parents can tell her parents. So judging from this it would seem that in some cases Confucianism, an "eastern" religion, is even more homophobic/transphobic than Christian fundamentalism is, unless you start accusing my family for "not being Chinese/Confucian enough".

Or maybe their respective religions have--*gasp*--nothing to do with their hatred of homosexuals at all!??!?

Anyways, does homophobia really have anything to do with Confucianism? I was reading the Analects of Confucius, and the entire text doesn't even mention homosexuality, So how can you attribute homophobia to Confucianism? As far as Mahayana buddhism, I don't claim to know too much about Northern Buddhism, but I know in Therevada and Tibetan buddhism, homosexuality is seen as pretty much the same as any other form of sex, i.e leads to more desires and is impure because it's done for pleasure, etc.

That's the dogmatic mistake many atheists make towards religion.


Clue no. 2: Western new-age kids don't really know anything about "eastern" religions like they think they do.

1.) I'm not exactly a Western kid in the sense you're thinking

2.) I'm formally on the process of converting to Hinduism and have been for some time. I'm very knowledgeable in Eastern religions.

I think your accusation was rather ignorant, but what more should I expect from you?

[Queercommie Girl]

Or maybe their respective religions have--*gasp*--nothing to do with their hatred of homosexuals at all!??!?

Anyways, does homophobia really have anything to do with Confucianism? I was reading the Analects of Confucius, and the entire text doesn't even mention homosexuality, So how can you attribute homophobia to Confucianism? As far as Mahayana buddhism, I don't claim to know too much about Northern Buddhism, but I know in Therevada and Tibetan buddhism, homosexuality is seen as pretty much the same as any other form of sex, i.e leads to more desires and is impure because it's done for pleasure, etc.

That's the dogmatic mistake many atheists make towards religion.


Homosexuality was explicitly outlawed in feudal China, which was officially a Confucian state.

The way you look at religions is like how a fundamentalist looks at them. You can't just look at the "holy books" etc, but also the concrete religious institutions in society. Otherwise you could also argue that actually the Christian Bible doesn't really mention homosexuality directly either, which is objectively true, but that doesn't change the fact that historically the Church did explicitly ban homosexuality.

Marxism analyses real history in the concrete sense, not just abstract texts.

At the abstract textual level everything sounds good, including contemporary US neo-liberal imperialism. Aren't the US military actions around the world wars of democratic liberation?

We judge people by what they've actually done, not what is said in their books. (The same standard applies to Marxism)

As for Confucianism, the sage Mencius once said: "There are three categories of unfilial actions, and not able to produce a heir is the greatest of them." Since gays can't naturally have children, this statement was taken as the basis for the homophobic laws in ancient China.



1.) I'm not exactly a Western kid in the sense you're thinking
Do you have a problem with reading my words? When did I ever accuse you of being a "Western kid"? I was just making an objective comment.



2.) I'm formally on the process of converting to Hinduism and have been for some time. I'm very knowledgeable in Eastern religions.
Don't forget the oppressive caste system in Hinduism.



I think your accusation was rather ignorant, but what more should I expect from you?Someone who can't even read properly accusing me for being ignorant? :rolleyes: And this comes from a person who doesn't even know the basics of transgenderism.

[Adi Shankara]

Homosexuality was explicitly outlawed in feudal China, which was officially a Confucian state.

and what makes you think that has anything to do with religion? the United States is officially capitalist, and yet no where in the bible is capitalism mentioned, and jesus was against free markets judging by his treatment of the merchants in the temple.

explain how you come to the conclusion that they aren't mutually exclusive, for I'd find it hard for a Confucian to justify their hatred of homosexuality with Confucianist belief seeing as Confucius didn't even mention homosexuality in his Analects.


The way you look at religions is like how a fundamentalist looks at them. You can't just look at the "holy books" etc, but also the concrete religious institutions in society.

And why the hell would I do that? I'm talking about the beliefs, not the believers. I don't care what other people believe in. I care about the core beliefs.


Otherwise you could also argue that actually the Christian Bible doesn't really mention homosexuality directly either, which is objectively true, but that doesn't change the fact that historically the Church did explicitly ban homosexuality.

It did, but that was the catholic church; religion isn't a monolithic entity like it'd have to be for your argument to work.


Marxism analyses real history in the concrete sense, not just abstract texts.

There you go again. Buddhism and Hinduism (at least in the Rig Veda, one of Hinduism's most important texts in all schools) doesn't claim to know history, nor do they try to analyze history.


At the abstract textual level everything sounds good, including contemporary US neo-liberal imperialism. Aren't the US military actions around the world wars of democratic liberation?

Then why not disown anarchism because of the result of it in Somalia and Haiti? why not disown communism completely because of Stalin? Good ideas don't hurt anybody--people who fail at carrying them out do.




As for Confucianism, the sage Mencius once said: "There are three categories of unfilial actions, and not able to produce a heir is the greatest of them." Since gays can't naturally have children, this statement was taken as the basis for the homophobic laws in ancient China.

I don't see how that is homophobic. it's reactionary, but it's not homophobic. Afterall, people still adopted in ancient China, didn't they? wasn't one of the greatest Chinese military leaders (Tong Guan) a eunuch?


Do you have a problem with reading my words? When did I ever accuse you of being a "Western kid"? I was just making an objective comment.

It's not objective at all; it's heavily biased and opinionated.


Don't forget the oppressive caste system in Hinduism.

which is strictly defined as a spiritual matter, not an earthly one, in the scriptures; where do you think Ghandhi, a devout orthodox Hindu, pulled his justification of the abolishment of caste from?


Someone who can't even read properly accusing me for being ignorant? :rolleyes: And this comes from a person who doesn't even know the basics of transgenderism.

I don't claim to know much about transgenderism. and I don't know what I misread.

[Queercommie Girl]

and what makes you think that has anything to do with religion? the United States is officially capitalist, and yet no where in the bible is capitalism mentioned, and jesus was against free markets judging by his treatment of the merchants in the temple.

explain how you come to the conclusion that they aren't mutually exclusive, for I'd find it hard for a Confucian to justify their hatred of homosexuality with Confucianist belief seeing as Confucius didn't even mention homosexuality in his Analects.


You may find it "hard to believe", but it happened in real history. Feudal Confucian China explicitly banned homosexuality based on interpretations of Confucian principles. You may argue they've interpreted it wrong, but certainly it's possible to interpret things that way.



And why the hell would I do that? I'm talking about the beliefs, not the believers. I don't care what other people believe in. I care about the core beliefs.


You sound like an idealist. According to the materialistic paradigm, it is impossible to separate "beliefs" in the abstract from the "believers" in real history.

Can you separate an abstract construction plan on paper from the concrete results of the construction project on the ground?



It did, but that was the catholic church; religion isn't a monolithic entity like it'd have to be for your argument to work.


You are missing my point. My point is that what is in the "holy books" and what is actually in social reality could be two very different things. And frankly it is stupid to evaluate a religion solely on the basis of what it states in the abstract rather than its real socio-economic implications.



There you go again. Buddhism and Hinduism (at least in the Rig Veda, one of Hinduism's most important texts in all schools) doesn't claim to know history, nor do they try to analyze history.


I don't care about the abstract elements of Hinduism and Buddhism. I care about their concrete socio-economic implications. You can't eat abstract principles.



Then why not disown anarchism because of the result of it in Somalia and Haiti? why not disown communism completely because of Stalin? Good ideas don't hurt anybody--people who fail at carrying them out do.


See, since you are religious you treat everything like a religion. For you it's either complete "disowning" or complete blind faith.

But I have no faith. I don't follow any philosophical system like a religion, including Marxism and anarchism. Marxism does not require baptism or a conversion ceremony. It's not just simplistically "black-and-white".



I don't see how that is homophobic. it's reactionary, but it's not homophobic. Afterall, people still adopted in ancient China, didn't they? wasn't one of the greatest Chinese military leaders (Tong Guan) a eunuch?


Your ignorance is frankly laughable. Eunuchs and gays aren't the same kind of thing at all.

Learn more about LGBT issues before coming out with your rubbish.

The issue here is not whether that abstract statement in itself is intrinsically homophobic or not, but the fact that such principles were used to pass homophobic laws in reality. I care more about history than philosophy, more about concrete socio-economic implications than abstract principles. In fact, for a materialist like me, there exists no purely abstract principles independent from concrete reality. It's wrong to even analyse principles in such a detached way.



It's not objective at all; it's heavily biased and opinionated.


My point is that I was commenting on other people, I was not accusing you personally.

So you think new age hippies are good representatives of "eastern" religion like how it is actually like?



which is strictly defined as a spiritual matter, not an earthly one, in the scriptures; where do you think Ghandhi, a devout orthodox Hindu, pulled his justification of the abolishment of caste from?


Yeah, you could apologise for Western Christianity in exactly the same way. It is strange therefore that you somehow find "eastern" religion to be superior to "western" ones.



I don't claim to know much about transgenderism. and I don't know what I misread.

You misread because you thought I was calling you a "Western new age kid", but I wasn't.

To not know much about transgenderism is indeed a sign of ignorance. Unless you look down on us trans people so much that you don't think we are worthy of your consideration.

[Queercommie Girl]

Although parts of the southern US has its own system of hierarchical social control dating back from before the Civil War, intolerance can exist anywhere. I have heard horror stories of harassment and abuse against lgbt people in "liberal" or "progressive" areas of the US such as the SF Bay area and Boston.

Yes, but statistically it is less common in SF.

You can't just look at anecdotal personal evidence and not examining the statistics. Otherwise it's not a scientific way of looking at things.

From the victim's subjective perspective there is no difference. But from an objective perspective there is a huge difference between a place that sees 10 homophobic/transphobic incidents on average annually and a place that sees 100 such incidents every year.

[bcbm]

Then why not disown anarchism because of the result of it in Somalia and Haiti?

lol are you high?

[Queercommie Girl]

Originally Posted by Jazzratt http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1867150#post1867150)
You're missing the point, possibly because you're fucking stupid.




Grow up. you sound like a kid on a school yard.


Hey, maybe you should "grow up" too, Mr. I'm-always-right. Stop being so hypocritical for once, will you? Because guess what, you called me "fucking stupid" too in the other thread here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/religion-after-revolution-t141811/index.html

Doesn't your religion teach you to "take out the plank in your own eye before you take out the splinter in another person's eye"? You know, there is no point in becoming knowledgable about abstract theological and theosophistic principles if you can't fulfill even the most elementary school level ethical laws, like Confucius' version of the "golden rule" - don't do to others what you don't wish others do to you.

I don't believe in religion, but I believe in ethics. Hypocrisy by religious people like you just further demonstrates that religion isn't the friend of genuine social ethics of solidarity and compassion it often claims to be.

[Adi Shankara]

Hey, maybe you should "grow up" too, Mr. I'm-always-right. Stop being so hypocritical for once, will you? Because guess what, you called me "fucking stupid" too in the other thread here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/religion-after-revolution-t141811/index.html

Doesn't your religion teach you to "take out the plank in your own eye before you take out the splinter in another person's eye"? You know, there is no point in becoming knowledgable about abstract theological and theosophistic principles if you can't fulfill even the most elementary school level ethical laws, like Confucius' version of the "golden rule" - don't do to others what you don't wish others do to you.

1.) I'm not a christian, so that's not my passage

2.) If I was being a complete imbecile, I'd hope someone would point it out, as I do for them.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

My understanding is that there is lgbt discrimination, sometimes severe, in India. Hinduism is different from the Abrahamic religions in that it isn't moralistic, alternate sexuality isn't judged as being "evil" like it is in Christianity, Islam, and I guess most forms of Judaism. It is generally looked down on though. I have heard that the tight knit family system prevalent in India and patriarchal attitudes can make things difficult for lgbt people.

Fire by Deepa Mehta is quite interesting, I think.

My understanding is that Indian culture, traditional or modern has more of a mythological or mythopoetic base to it than western cultures.

Questions for Thomas Sankara-are there elements or aspects of Hindu mythology that would provide room both for alternate sexuality on one hand and social revolution on the other? My understanding is that "Hinduism" isn't so much a religion in the western sense but more of a vast cultural conglomerate with unifying texts and gods.

I believe Alexandra Kollantai had some interest in Hinduism.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It's just infuraiting how every time I see a comment even vaguely critical of religion or the religious I know you or some other, equally worthless, lackwit is going to bumble in and make asinine comments like yours. It's especially infuriating in this thread because religion is definately a major part of the problem here, I'm in fact prepared to lay money on the fact that these people felt morally justified because they were killing queers for jesus.

This is why I think you're a tedious wankspider and this is why you should get the fuck over yourself.
I have been fucked with by atheists and religious people a like (also some who identified as leftists) because I am trans. You may be right and religion may very well have been the factor and in the majority of cases like this it is. But another significant factor could be non-religious machismo. I have a tendency to not dismiss possibilities that are simply not the most likely of the possibilities.

[Adi Shankara]

I have been fucked with by atheists and religious people a like (also some who identified as leftists) because I am trans. You may be right and religion may very well have been the factor and in the majority of cases like this it is. But another significant factor could be non-religious machismo. I have a tendency to not dismiss possibilities that are simply not the most likely of the possibilities.

shh, that's not supposed to happen! According to Jazzratt, those atheists must've been undercover christians, or hiding crosses somewhere on their person :rolleyes:

[Queercommie Girl]

1.) I'm not a christian, so that's not my passage


Ok but doesn't Hinduism have a similar ethical principle? I know Confucianism does.

[Queercommie Girl]

My understanding is that there is lgbt discrimination, sometimes severe, in India. Hinduism is different from the Abrahamic religions in that it isn't moralistic, alternate sexuality isn't judged as being "evil" like it is in Christianity, Islam, and I guess most forms of Judaism. It is generally looked down on though. I have heard that the tight knit family system prevalent in India and patriarchal attitudes can make things difficult for lgbt people.

Fire by Deepa Mehta is quite interesting, I think.

My understanding is that Indian culture, traditional or modern has more of a mythological or mythopoetic base to it than western cultures.

Questions for Thomas Sankara-are there elements or aspects of Hindu mythology that would provide room both for alternate sexuality on one hand and social revolution on the other? My understanding is that "Hinduism" isn't so much a religion in the western sense but more of a vast cultural conglomerate with unifying texts and gods.

I believe Alexandra Kollantai had some interest in Hinduism.

Yes, one thing people have missed in this debate so far is what exactly consitutes a "religion". After all, "religion" in the English linguistic context is a Western term, it doesn't necessarily fit well with certain forms of "eastern" traditions.

For instance, one could argue that Confucianism is more like idealistic classical philosophy such as Platonism than proper religions like Christianity and Islam, even though in feudal China it was treated as a religion by the imperial state in the institutional sense.

[gorillafuck]

shh, that's not supposed to happen! According to Jazzratt, those atheists must've been undercover christians, or hiding crosses somewhere on their person
Jazzratt was saying that religious influence on society causes these things, not just all individual religious people while atheists can't be bigoted at all. I don't necessarily agree, but just for the future, it makes you look like a dumbass when you (willfully?) ignore what people actually mean.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

shh, that's not supposed to happen! According to Jazzratt, those atheists must've been undercover christians, or hiding crosses somewhere on their person :rolleyes:
As I see it Jazzratt maybe dismissing possibilities that are less likely, but I think you are over playing them.

[Queercommie Girl]

2.) If I was being a complete imbecile, I'd hope someone would point it out, as I do for them.

That's indeed what Jaz thought he/she was doing, but it seems you didn't like it at all.

[Jazzratt]

Thomas is a depressingly stupid, hypocritical fuck, part n:


2.) If I was being a complete imbecile, I'd hope someone would point it out, as I do for them. Well, no actually, if someone points out what a fucking odious cretin you are you become totatally defensive. It's really quite sad.


shh, that's not supposed to happen! According to Jazzratt, those atheists must've been undercover christians, or hiding crosses somewhere on their person :rolleyes: See, this is why I'm trying hard not to bother with you in this thread because you clearly have no idea how to understand written english. You're making up my position on the spot because you're thick, delusional or dishonest. Seriously though it's hilarious that you're talking about this as if there is the remotest possibility that the crime in the OP was commited by atheists, given they make up a tiny minority of the state's population:
http://hpronline.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/nonreligion.jpg

For the record though, since you're an illiterate prick, I've never once denied the existance of bigotry amongst atheists.

[Dimentio]

This is just so timeless... it is reminiscent of witch burnings in the 17th century.

[Queercommie Girl]

This is just so timeless... it is reminiscent of witch burnings in the 17th century.

Or even the human sacrifice conducted by Chinese slave-lords during the Shang dynasty...

"I proclaim your death according to the mandate of Heaven"...

Just goes to show, capitalism is indeed another form of slavery - wage slavery. It may be much more sophisticated and advanced than the ancient slavery system in which slaves were brutally killed as sacrificial offerings to God, but the essence of class oppression remains the same.

[counterblast]

The fuck? I never said it did. Please don't misconstrue my statements. I only said I'd like to see them get life in prison. What alternative do you suggest in our capitalist society? Let them get off free? :rolleyes: ...See, I can roll my eyes too. See how cool it makes me?

Oh I don't know, organizing community members, relatives, friends & other allies of these victims to respond to violence outside of the criminal justice system?

I'd like to think the anarcha-feminists in New York, who recently attacked a serial rapist in his house in the middle of the night and have worked to ex-communicate him from their community are doing something right.

Or the queers of Bash Back! who made trans basher (and possible murderer) cop Bridges McRae's life a living hell. Doing things ranging from vandalizing his car/home to disrupting major events in his life to more basic things like raising public awareness, ultimately causing McRae to be fired from his job, and forced to move out of town.


Anyways, on a side note, I'm not really sure why you're taking anything I posted so personally?

[x371322]

Anyways, on a side note, I'm not really sure why you're taking anything I posted so personally?

Who said I took anything personally? I just wanted to make sure my point was made clear. It's all good! No worries! My bad if I came across too brash.

:)

[Klaatu]

Because only religious people can be homophobic, right? Thank you for reminding me that every last atheist on earth is a paragon of virtue, free from the restraints of homophobia and racism. :rolleyes:

Actually, I have known quite a few atheist people in my life. They seem to be quite intelligent and tolerant. Of course, if we ask them if they are tolerant of stupid homophobic religious extremists, they have no tolerance for that ineptitude.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Oh I don't know, organizing community members, relatives, friends & other allies of these victims to respond to violence outside of the criminal justice system?
We are dealing with the same contradiction with in the trans community in Milwaukee following a murder back in May.


I'd like to think the anarcha-feminists in New York, who recently attacked a serial rapist in his house in the middle of the night and have worked to ex-communicate him from their community are doing something right.

Or the queers of Bash Back! who made trans basher (and possible murderer) cop Bridges McRae's life a living hell. Doing things ranging from vandalizing his car/home to disrupting major events in his life to more basic things like raising public awareness, ultimately causing McRae to be fired from his job, and forced to move out of town.
I love it when you say things like this.:tt1: (Blows an internet kiss and waves) :thumbup1::wub:


Anyways, on a side note, I'm not really sure why you're taking anything I posted so personally?
People can't handle the awesome things you say.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

See, this is why I'm trying hard not to bother with you in this thread because you clearly have no idea how to understand written english. You're making up my position on the spot because you're thick, delusional or dishonest. Seriously though it's hilarious that you're talking about this as if there is the remotest possibility that the crime in the OP was commited by atheists, given they make up a tiny minority of the state's population:
http://hpronline.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/nonreligion.jpg

For the record though, since you're an illiterate prick, I've never once denied the existance of bigotry amongst atheists.

So Sarah Palin's husband got what he wanted, eh? Alaska must have left the union. How does Idaho have a higher percent than Wisconsin? I'm suddenly even more ashamed of being from Wisconsin than before.:crying:

[Klaatu]

Seriously though it's hilarious that you're talking about this as if there is the remotest possibility that the crime in the OP was commited by atheists, given they make up a tiny minority of the state's population

I wish we could super-impose this map on to a map which shows state educational level. Seems the most religious states are those with the lowest educational level.

[Adi Shankara]

I wish we could super-impose this map on to a map which shows state educational level. Seems the most religious states are those with the lowest educational level.

Alaska? Alaska is one of the most irreligious states, and they have a relatively low education level.