Fidel calls out France on its fascist actions against Roma

[scarletghoul]

News stories on Fidel's remarks seems to be the new meme so why not. I agree with him. Even if there's no death camps it's essentially the same fascist attitude of ethnic cleansing. Look how butthurt the french government is at this truism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11271064
11 September 2010 Last updated at 12:17 France condemns Castro Roma 'holocaust' remark
France says comments by former Cuban leader Fidel Castro about its treatment of Roma migrants are unacceptable and show his ignorance of history.
Mr Castro accused Paris of carrying out a "racial holocaust" over its expulsion of members of the Roma community.
France has come under increasing international criticism after about 1,000 Roma were deported recently.
The European Parliament has urged the government to halt the deportations - a call rejected by Paris.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11271064#story_continues_1) Related stories



Q&A: France Roma expulsions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11027288)
Roma face struggle on return to Romania (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11205023)


"The use of 'holocaust' by Mr Castro demonstrates his ignorance of history and disdain towards its victims," said French foreign ministry spokesman Bernard Valero. "Such words are unacceptable."
In a clear reference to Cuba's treatment of dissidents, Mr Valero added: "That Fidel Castro shows an interest in human rights is truly revolutionary."
French irritation Mr Castro, 84, made his controversial remark at an event in Havana to promote the second volume of his autobiography.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49064000/jpg/_49064658_010152864-1.jpg Mr Castro has been promoting his autobiography
"The last thing one would expect is the news of the expulsion of French gypsies, who are victims of the cruelty of the extreme right wing in France," he said.
Migrants were, he said, "victims of another kind of racial holocaust".
Fidel Castro's words have clearly angered the French government, the BBC's David Chazan reports from Paris.
It has been irritated by international condemnation of its treatment of the Roma and comparisons with the round-ups of Jews under the Nazi occupation.
It says it is scrupulously observing French laws and European regulations.
Since Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU in 2007, many Roma have come to France.
But the government has blamed them for a rise in crime and violence and says they cannot stay in France without jobs.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49044000/gif/_49044278_europe_roma_popn.gif

[The Vegan Marxist]

What excuse is France using to persecute the Roma people anyways?

[Antifa94]

I think it's a bit asinine to label everything that we disagree with fascist.
Call it for what it is, ethnic cleansing. ( as a title, we can call it "fidel calls out France on its genocidal actions against Roma)

@vegan marxist They use racist rhetoric in which they state that the Roma people are "thieves and vagabonds". Therefore, it's only logical to kick a 300 year old community of their country.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think it's a bit asinine to label everything that we disagree with fascist.
Call it for what it is, ethnic cleansing. ( as a title, we can call it "fidel calls out France on its genocidal actions against Roma)

@vegan marxist They use racist rhetoric in which they state that the Roma people are "thieves and vagabonds". Therefore, it's only logical to kick a 300 year old community of their country.

Sounds like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. :(

[Antifa94]

More so if say Alsace-Lorraine was turned into a prison camp for the Roma.
and then a wall was built to segregate them.

[Nolan]

Waaaaa but dissidents in Cuba

[Adi Shankara]

It's about time; much of Europe's has been getting away with mistreating and discriminating the Roma for far too long (ironic considering the stances taken on Darfur, South Africa, and the American South by what consists of the EU today) and its about time someone calls them out. good for Fidel, I hope he made Sarkozy real angry.

I was reading in my issue of the Economist, that, "for all the Warsaw pact's faults, at least the Roma had jobs, housing, and were protected from discrimination". And trust me, this magazine NEVER praises anything leftist usually.

[Adi Shankara]

But the government has blamed them for a rise in crime and violence hrm...what does that sound like? :rolleyes:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/08/07/hitler460.jpg

Godwin's law be damned, I think Castro is on to something.

[Obs]

What excuse is France using to persecute the Roma people anyways?
That Roma people move around too much, if I'm not mistaken.


hrm...what does that sound like? :rolleyes:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/08/07/hitler460.jpg

Godwin's law be damned, I think Castro is on to something.
Well, we've seen the "emergence" of that Sarrazin fellow in Germany. I don't think we're far away from apartheid and fascism here in Europe.

[bricolage]

Even if there's no death camps it's essentially the same fascist attitude of ethnic cleansing.

I think it's a bit asinine to label everything that we disagree with fascist.
This. Ethnic cleansing is not unique to fascism. Actually to say it so rather buys into the myth of the caring democratic state.

[The Vegan Marxist]

hrm...what does that sound like? :rolleyes:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/08/07/hitler460.jpg

Godwin's law be damned, I think Castro is on to something.

The same thing is being said about the hispanic immigrants in the US. That they're the reason for the supposed "high crimes".

[Nolan]

That Roma people move around too much, if I'm not mistaken.


Well, we've seen the "emergence" of that Sarrazin fellow in Germany. I don't think we're far away from apartheid and fascism here in Europe.

Isn't Sarrazin some businessman-politician of partly Arab descent?

[MooseCracker]

The official bullsh!t line is that it is a humanitarian effort because so many live in slums.
OK- If you don't like people living in slums try being a little more egalitarian...
So France is giving the Gypsies $300 EU per person and firing them off (as though you can move any where in Europe, except to a new set of slums, for that amount of money). Top make matters more racist, even though some of the Rom were nationals in France (kids born there etc.) or had proper citizenship, they are sending them "back to Romania". The Romanians are willing to accept them while reminding the French that people in the EU have the right to travel in the EU... and that Roma doesn't actually mean Romanian. (This concept seems to be lost on the French altogether). I suppose they could have sent them to Rome... a friend pointed out that they could have said 'oh Gypsies, let's send them "back" to Egypt'

[scarletghoul]

I think it's a bit asinine to label everything that we disagree with fascist.
I'm not one of those who labels everything as fascist, but this is Fascism, no doubt about it. Same goes for the Arizona immigrant law, the Greek government declaring marshal law against striking workers, etc. Unlike a lot of people I see Fascism not as just a far-right neonazi thing, but an inherent ugly side to the modern monopoly-capitalist state that rears it's head when the conditions require it (when the capitalist system is threatened usually). It comes in some varying ideological forms but it's essentially the same thing.

[Magón]

The same thing is being said about the hispanic immigrants in the US. That they're the reason for the supposed "high crimes".

*Mexican Shifty Eye Look* :lol:

It's okay, somewhere down the line, we and the Roma will ban together for the ultimate Vagabond Criminal Revolution. :thumbup1:

[Obs]

Isn't Sarrazin some businessman-politician of partly Arab descent?
Yes. I'm also fairly certain his last name means "Saracen" in German.

[Nolan]

Yes. I'm also fairly certain his last name means "Saracen" in German.

It's pretty strange that he of all people in the ruling class would be advocating anti-immigrant bullshit.

[Obs]

It's pretty strange that he of all people in the ruling class would be advocating anti-immigrant bullshit.
Book sales. He probably figured he'd get a lot of publicity and sell a whole bunch of books, and didn't predict that it'd backfire liked it did.

[AK]

Waaaaa but dissidents in Cuba
Funny how you say that when no-one's actually mentioned that in this thread.

[Obs]

Funny how you say that when no-one's actually mentioned that in this thread.
Funny how you proved him right. :cool:

[Nolan]

He has been subject to controversy for statements about German immigration policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy) and Jewish genetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jewish_people) in relation to the publication of his book Deutschland schafft sich ab ("Germany Abolishes Itself" or "Germany Does Away with Itself")

Holy fuck I would think this to be some kind of major international scandal. This guy uses rhetoric that wouldn't have been out of place in the Third Reich.

[Nolan]

Funny how you say that when no-one's actually mentioned that in this thread.

Pay attention:


In a clear reference to Cuba's treatment of dissidents, Mr Valero added: "That Fidel Castro shows an interest in human rights is truly revolutionary."

[AK]

Pay attention:
Oops :blushing:

[Obs]

Holy fuck I would think this to be some kind of major international scandal. This guy uses rhetoric that wouldn't have been out of place in the Third Reich.
Best part is, he's a Social Democrat. But yeah, this is really the point we're at in Europe.

[bobroberts]

It's illegal to sell nazi paraphernalia in France, but you can still adopt their racial scapegoating methods.

[Antifa94]

I was reading in my issue of the Economist, that, "for all the Warsaw pact's faults, at least the Roma had jobs, housing, and were protected from discrimination". And trust me, this magazine NEVER praises anything leftist usually.[/QUOTE]


The Economist is pretty liberal, lol. So there is a lot of center-left articles and editorials in it. Haven't you noticed all the hipsters reading it?

[Rusty Shackleford]

im not necessarily surprised that france did this, its just that it was brazen as fuck.

since the recession and even before then, there was a scapegoating of foreigners.

hell, the movie "This Is England" did a good job of showing that in the 80s(though it has existed since even before then).

in northern ireland last year or this year, i forget, romanian and polish immigrants were targeted by right-wing groups. i think there were even instances of firebombings alongside the more common brickings of windows and stuff.

theres a huge xenophobic, almost pan-european, anti muslim sentiment. even the "neutral" switzerland banned minarets because apparently 4 is too many.

northern europeans dislike southern europeans because their governments fucked up, and some may attribute it even to southern european culture or whatever generalization.

europe is not that liberal paradise american liberals like to portray it as. even canada is harsh on natives.


also, im glad to see castro wasnt off his rocker and it was just all misinterpretation or purposeful skewing of meaning/context by some right-wing "journalist."

[bricolage]

I'm not one of those who labels everything as fascist, but this is Fascism, no doubt about it. Same goes for the Arizona immigrant law, the Greek government declaring marshal law against striking workers, etc.

It comes in some varying ideological forms but it's essentially the same thing.I have to disagree with you here, fascism is just not some term that can be thrown around in regards to any form of repression, authoritarianism or anti-worker activity. The problem here like with most things is that it remains hard to effectively define fascism due to its lack of coherency. In this way writes how its "ideas were unscrupulously pillaged from other traditions, cultures and doctrines. Moreover there is no locus classicus - akin, say, to the Communist Manifesto - which supplied the inspiration of fascist leaders and thinkers". However he does go on to identify five recurring themes in its evolution; statism, racialism, imperialism, elitism and National Socialism. I think these are useful, especially the statism (*) but perhaps not wholly adequate. Personally I'd add some references to militarism and the minimising of 'democracy' (in terms of the way it is currently conceived, ie. representative democracy. I don't want this to turn into a 'capitalism is not democractic, only communism is! type thing, no matter how true that may be).

Zeev Strenhell writes "the hard core and the most radical variety of a far more widespread, far older phenomenon: a comprehensive revision of the essential values of the humanistic, rationalistic and optimistic heritage of the Enlightenment".


(Note, I got these quotes from introduction to political ideology books I had in my first year at university, I still think they are quite useful though.)


This is what I think is most important here the identification of fascism by what it opposed, as he state, 'the essential values of the humanistic, rationalistic and optimistic heritage of the Enlightenment'. Classically fascists have of course been very clear on this;

"We stand for... sheer categorical definitive antithesis to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789"

"The year 1789 is hereby eradicated from history".

In practical terms probably the clearest example of this is the fascist opposition to liberal representative democracy, of course once again spilling over into the intense statism.

When we look at for example this French action against the Roma people we can see it is not being perpetrated by a state antithetical to this tradition but rather a state that still sees itself as the direct descendant of 1789 itself. Furthermore the entire legitimising principles of the French state are ones inherited from the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. Being able to conflate things like ethnic cleansing with fascism not only, as I said, buys into the discourse of the caring democratic state but actually has profound political implications beyond this. What it does is, by pushing everything 'bad' to the 'right', draws the fault lines at fascism versus not-fascism. However by shifting these lines, by showing ethnic cleansing etc is not unique to fascism we are able to reassert the actual fault lines of society, that the divide is not fascist vs non-fascist, by capital vs labour.

I think another good example of this is Israel. Israel as a state has obviously been responsible for horrific examples of ethnic cleansing, systematic exclusion and national oppression but it is by no means a fascist state. Of course there have been fascist groups in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai) (and in Zionist movements prior to its foundation), (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Maximalism) like there have been, and are, effectively fascist groups in France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_National_%28France%29), but none of this means that the French state or the Israeli state, or the American state or the Greek state today are fascist states. Like I said this is an essential distinction if we are to redfine the paramaters of political discourse and to reassert where the real divisions in societal life lie.


Unlike a lot of people I see Fascism not as just a far-right neonazi thing,Well obviously not seeing as fascism predates nazism... not to mention neonazism.


but an inherent ugly side to the modern monopoly-capitalist state that rears it's head when the conditions require it (when the capitalist system is threatened usually).Of course;

The historic function of fascism is to smash the working class, destroy its organizations, and stifle political liberties when the capitalists find themselves unable to govern and dominate with the help of democratic machinery.

* Mussoloni is clearest on this; "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."

In regards to the state I think this is important because it remains true that it is a lot easy to identify fascism when it is in control of the state as opposed to when it is not. When it is in the latter is easy to conflate fascist groups with the more general 'far right'.

[maskerade]

The Economist is pretty liberal, lol. So there is a lot of center-left articles and editorials in it. Haven't you noticed all the hipsters reading it?


Ehm, The economist is not center-left, it's right wing neoliberal crap. And outside the US, there is nothing leftist about liberalism.

Their only vaguely leftist stance is their call for the legalization of drugs, but that is more out of sense than ideology i think

[bailey_187]

The Economist is pretty liberal, lol. So there is a lot of center-left articles and editorials in it. Haven't you noticed all the hipsters reading it?

Its liberal in a European sense. They always say how markets are better, free trade is good, the state is bad when in the economy etc.

They are "liberal left" on social issues though i guess.

[Dimentio]

What excuse is France using to persecute the Roma people anyways?

The official one is that they "refuse" to be integrated.

Antiziganism is really a consequence of industrialisation, when travelling people were illegalised all across Europe in the 19th century.

[Rusty Shackleford]

this may not be a proper post, but this subject reminded me that if my life fell completely apart that i wanted to become a vagabond in eastern europe. probably starting off in belarus and then maybe south into the balkans. yes, i would accept a lifestyle.

the roma people have a culture that seems to transcend the development of property since they are tied to no specific piece of land.

[brigadista]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rwwpp5E3zA&feature=player_embedded

if you want to know more go to


http://www.romarights.net/v2/

and

http://www.errc.org/

[Red Commissar]

I find it odd that countries like France attempt to make this issue seem like the gravest issue facing their nation and that they have to "stand up" against it. Even though it's evident that there are far more pressing and real problems facing France. But people will still buy that because it makes them think they have power.

I suppose it is the same way with people thinking that radicalism must be combated and defending the actions of state because they think it advances that. Fidel called out Sarkzoy for what he is in such a way that made sure it would be noticed. For all intents and purposes Sarkozy's scapegoating of Romani is not that different from Vichy France's own treatment towards them. Sarko might as well get himself a Petain get up.

[brigadista]

I find it odd that countries like France attempt to make this issue seem like the gravest issue facing their nation and that they have to "stand up" against it. Even though it's evident that there are far more pressing and real problems facing France. But people will still buy that because it makes them think they have power.

I suppose it is the same way with people thinking that radicalism must be combated and defending the actions of state because they think it advances that. Fidel called out Sarkzoy for what he is in such a way that made sure it would be noticed. For all intents and purposes Sarkozy's scapegoating of Romani is not that different from Vichy France's own treatment towards them. Sarko might as well get himself a Petain get up.


cheap vote catcher and there are a lot of vichy lovers in france...

[Red Commissar]

cheap vote catcher and there are a lot of vichy lovers in france...

It goes goes with out saying this is a political ploy. My interest is why people are willing to buy it.

[Obs]

It goes goes with out saying this is a political ploy. My interest is why people are willing to buy it.
They're told to.