America needs to get over 9/11

[The Red Next Door]

Americans need to get over 9/11, this incident have been use to justify imperialism and hatred against Muslims and Arabs. I don't mean to sound like an asshole, it only 3,000 killed compare to the Millions killed by this government. Most where dirty capitalism and some where innocent workers.

When we bomb and killed people, it okay man but when someone do it to us, the motherfucker got to pay.

I am gonna spend tomorrow remember 9/11/1973.

9/11/73>9/11/01 Karma motherfuckers.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I don't think that anyone should be bombing anyone regardless of race,religion,or sexual orientation.

Yeah,though,I agree that it should stoped being used to justify more imperialistic acts.Violence only begets violence afterall.

[Magón]

I'm going to spend tomorrow sitting in a class room for a couple hours, then come home and just chill the hell out on my nice new couch that's arriving. (FROM MEXICO!) 9/11 isn't the only major thing, that's happened in the world that people are still hung up on though.

[LeftistLord]

President Hugo Chavez said that 9-11 was done by Bush. So it is a crime to forget the crimes done perperated by US government against its own people, and against the people of the whole world.

So we should not forget 9-11, 4000 people died there, remember that 4000 people were killed there by CIA, Bush and his cronies as a pretext to wage a "War on terrorism", which is really a war on behalf of Israhell and a war for geopolitical imperialist objectives planned long ago before 9-11

.

.


Americans need to get over 9/11, this incident have been use to justify imperialism and hatred against Muslims and Arabs. I don't mean to sound like an asshole, it only 3,000 killed compare to the Millions killed by this government. Most where dirty capitalism and some where innocent workers.

When we bomb and killed people, it okay man but when someone do it to us, the motherfucker got to pay.

I am gonna spend tomorrow remember 9/11/1973.

9/11/73>9/11/01 Karma motherfuckers.

[#FF0000]

I knew someone would post some insane nonsense up here

[¿Que?]

I am gonna spend tomorrow remember 9/11/1973.

9/11/73>9/11/01 Karma motherfuckers.
Red Next Door > Rev. Jeremiah Wright!

[Klaatu]

Americans need to get over 9/11, this incident have been use to justify imperialism and hatred against Muslims and Arabs.
Agreed!!!


I don't mean to sound like an asshole,

You don't sound like an asshole at all. You are saying what reasonable people are thinking, in the back of their minds. People need to finally get over this, like their Bible tells them: "Turn the other cheek," and "Let he who is without sin, throw the first stone..."

[#FF0000]

tbh i also really don't like this numbers game. deaths are a tragedy no matter what and saying "oh this isn't so bad it's only so many people compared to that many" seems hella callous.


9/11/73>9/11/01 Karma motherfuckers.

Yes everybody in the towers were directly responsible for what the U.S. government and U.S. business interests did in the past, I'm sure.

[KC]

This thread seems largely pointless.

[The Red Next Door]

tbh i also really don't like this numbers game. deaths are a tragedy no matter what and saying "oh this isn't so bad it's only so many people compared to that many" seems hella callous.



Yes everybody in the towers were directly responsible for what the U.S. government and U.S. business interests did in the past, I'm sure.


I did Said "SOME INNOCENT WORKERS"

[#FF0000]

I did Said "SOME INNOCENT WORKERS"

I can't name a single CEO that died in 9/11. Most were secretaries and middle management shlubs. No capitalists died, to my knowledge, and even if they did, it wasn't worth it and didn't achieve anything. It was a senseless loss of life.

I agree that the whole 9/11 spectacle should be given a rest, but let's not diminish the lives lost.

9/11 wasn't an instance of evil American imperialist capitalists getting what's coming. It was an instance of people with no power or influence dying as a result of the capitalist class's imperialist ventures

[Freedom-Hating Communist]

There's a difference between attacking the right-wing loonies- demonstrating that Al Queda had reasons other than insanity or religious intolerance to do what they did, that the tragedy was used as a propaganda tool by the US government, and that the US government has killed LOADS more people than the 9/11 hijackers did- and simply dismissing the event and telling people to 'get over it'. One is necessary for the struggle against Islamaophobia and Imperialism; the other is insensitive and inhuman.

[Red Commissar]

I am gonna spend tomorrow remember 9/11/1973.

9/11/73>9/11/01 Karma motherfuckers.

I don't think what happened on 9/11 was because of the US's role in overthrowing President Allende.

We shouldn't be jumping on the patriotic circlejerk like the wingnuts like to do though. Just another day workers are getting screwed over like any other day. However I don't think that we can just go "Karma *****". It'll make some people really angry.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I just realized tomorrow is 9/11! I just remembered I was going to a conservatives house to have a game night! A house full of conservatives and 1 communist in the same room. I think they set this up to kill me.

[Red Commissar]

I just realized tomorrow is 9/11! I just remembered I was going to a conservatives house to have a game night! A house full of conservatives and 1 communist in the same room. I think they set this up to kill me.

I can't compare to that, but I'm on a forum where it's more conservative if anything. The users try to find things here and there to get me banned. I feel like a restricted member does here :lol:

[Klaatu]

I just realized tomorrow is 9/11! I just remembered I was going to a conservatives house to have a game night! A house full of conservatives and 1 communist in the same room. I think they set this up to kill me.

That's interesting. Personally, I think that USA conservatives do more damage to our country than al-queda ever could hope possible... :crying:

[LeftistLord]

Red: Internet forums give people some sort of fake-power, because they cannot publish whatever they imagine in a newspaper or they won't be able to say any thing they want on CNN or in any TV channel because TV space and time is real expensive. So all they have is internet. And some people love to force what ever they believe on others, even if its just a belief. I don't know how can so many people claim that 9-11 was done by poor people with box cutters, just coz their marxist leaders said so. Like the dogmatic people of marxist com, and other dogmatic fundamentalist marxist-leninists of the USSR socialism of the XX Century.

They are like Noam Chomsky who is crazy, stoned and on drugs, because he said that Lenin and Trotsky were fascists right wingers. But Noam Chomsky followers agree with Chomsky because USA is a celebrity-worship society.

I think that we cannot be attached to any political party, any political leader, to any marxist, trotskist or any leader, and it is good to be socialist and marxist but voluntarily and the same goes with 9-11.

Almost nobody has the 100% truth and facts of what happened in 9-11, so all we can come up is with theories of what happened there, and i think that the best theory is that it was an inside job and not whatever the closet capitalist anti-Trotsky, anti-Lenin Noam Chomsky claims about 9-11
.

.


I can't compare to that, but I'm on a forum where it's more conservative if anything. The users try to find things here and there to get me banned. I feel like a restricted member does here :lol:

[bailey_187]

I don't know how can so many people claim that 9-11 was done by poor people with box cutters


Well, with these box cutter knives they managed to take over whole planes. You can fuck alot of shit up with planes.

[bailey_187]

President Hugo Chavez said that 9-11 was done by Bush.


I don't know how can so many people claim that 9-11 was done by poor people with box cutters, just coz their marxist leaders said so.

LOL




which is really a war on behalf of Israhell

LOL, what the fuck did Israel stand to gain from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?



This poster is clearly LeninistKing, an Anti-Semite who was already banned from here and can now be seen trolling various socialist blogs with his crazy theories.

[Rusty Shackleford]

haha i totally forgot about that guy. yeah i can see it now.

[Devrim]

tbh i also really don't like this numbers game. deaths are a tragedy no matter what and saying "oh this isn't so bad it's only so many people compared to that many" seems hella callous.

I don't like this numbers game. The fact is though that every year we are treated in the world media to the anniversary of 9/11 as if it is the greatest disaster in human history.

Yet how many civilians has the US died since the start of US intervention in Iraq? Possibly over 1,000,000, a number which dwarfs the dead of 9/11. More people died at Sabra and Shatila than in 9/11. People who the US had promised to protect less than a week earlier. Yet how many Americans have heard of Sabra and Shatila even, let alone know where it is?

I don't support terrorist actions like these, but I know plenty of people who do. When I went home and told my girlfriend what had happened that day, her response was one word "good".

I don't think that the America's constant referral to these events gathers any sympathy internationally, and does cause resentment.

Devrim

[CleverTitle]

I'm in a building full of conservatives today. I'm pretty sure I've heard "NEVER FORGET" about 400 times in the few hours I've been interacting with these people. It's really depressing, knowing that all of these people can sit here and claim to feel sorrow for the families of 9/11 victims, yet at the same time cheer on imperialism. I can't stand it.

[Jayshin_JTTH]

I don't see how 9/11 can be justified under anti-imperialist auspices. Indeed, it was a giant gift to imperialist capital, mainly to Dutch Bay and BP for the Iraqi oil it let them steal.

Bin Laden's father was a billionaire, and Bin Laden was/is a CIA agent.

[TwoSevensClash]

I don't think that the America's constant referral to these events gathers any sympathy internationally, and does cause resentment.

Devrim

The constant reference to 9/11 is for playing upon the emotions of the American people. Bush and the GOP found out that if the kept on bringing up 9/11 the American people would get all emotional and support stupid things like invade Iraq, patriot act. and re-elect him.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Red: Internet forums give people some sort of fake-power, because they cannot publish whatever they imagine in a newspaper or they won't be able to say any thing they want on CNN or in any TV channel because TV space and time is real expensive. So all they have is internet. And some people love to force what ever they believe on others, even if its just a belief. I don't know how can so many people claim that 9-11 was done by poor people with box cutters, just coz their marxist leaders said so. Like the dogmatic people of marxist com, and other dogmatic fundamentalist marxist-leninists of the USSR socialism of the XX Century.

They are like Noam Chomsky who is crazy, stoned and on drugs, because he said that Lenin and Trotsky were fascists right wingers. But Noam Chomsky followers agree with Chomsky because USA is a celebrity-worship society.

I think that we cannot be attached to any political party, any political leader, to any marxist, trotskist or any leader, and it is good to be socialist and marxist but voluntarily and the same goes with 9-11.

Almost nobody has the 100% truth and facts of what happened in 9-11, so all we can come up is with theories of what happened there, and i think that the best theory is that it was an inside job and not whatever the closet capitalist anti-Trotsky, anti-Lenin Noam Chomsky claims about 9-11
.

.


OOOH no, the truth is out there, plenty, plenty of info exists, but even people on the left are afraid to talk about it for fear of being called "conspiracy theory nuts". but there is plenty of info out there that no one will give answers to, and when people refuse to answer questions, that's an answer in and of itself. as the old saying goes, where there's smoke there's fire.

[Devrim]

The constant reference to 9/11 is for playing upon the emotions of the American people. Bush and the GOP found out that if the kept on bringing up 9/11 the American people would get all emotional and support stupid things like invade Iraq, patriot act. and re-elect him.

Obviously so.

Devrim

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I wouldn't say its fair to say that America needs to "get over 9/11". Americans are right to feel saddened by the loss of some of the innocent workers in the twin towers. The twin towers weren't filled with rich capitalists and war mongers, I'd imagine the majority of people there were rank and file, wage workers.

However, people are right on the question of the American media and government's use of the event to justify the post 9/11 wars. People should be able to grieve on their own terms, without the direct influence of the right-wing media and the government.

Really we should be recognizing the people's grief, whilst pointing out the fact that the American media and government is using the tragic deaths of workers, by an elitist force, to justify the killing of workers and poor people in other parts of the world. I once saw an interview with an Israeli citizen, who's young daughter was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. Thanks to rational thought, he was able to assess the reasons behind the attack, without resorting to blame games; he drew conclusions that led him to understand that the problem was his own government. Does he not have the right to grieve the tragic loss of his daughter? Not all Americans buy their government or media's rhetoric, and their entitlement to grief is a separate issue.

All you will do, if you tell people to "get over 9/11", is piss them the fuck off and make the left look like a bunch of insensitive wank bags that aren't worth listening to anyway.

Sorry for the rant, I just thought that some of the terminology in this thread was anti-worker more than anti-government or anti-media.

[KC]

I don't like this numbers game. The fact is though that every year we are treated in the world media to the anniversary of 9/11 as if it is the greatest disaster in human history.

Yet how many civilians has the US died since the start of US intervention in Iraq? Possibly over 1,000,000, a number which dwarfs the dead of 9/11. More people died at Sabra and Shatila than in 9/11. People who the US had promised to protect less than a week earlier. Yet how many Americans have heard of Sabra and Shatila even, let alone know where it is?

I don't support terrorist actions like these, but I know plenty of people who do. When I went home and told my girlfriend what had happened that day, her response was one word "good".

I don't think that the America's constant referral to these events gathers any sympathy internationally, and does cause resentment.

The sensationalism of such deaths is due to the circumstances in which they happen. In a military occupation of a country where it is quite routine for occupying forces to murder civilians, these deaths are not only not surprising but expected, and even predicted by military leaders as "collateral losses".

9/11 was significant in that it was an attack on American soil, which is generally unheard of to most Americans, that it involved flying planes into buildings, and that the World Trade Center towers actually collapsed. The extraordinariness of these events contributed to their legacy.

Of course 9/11 is obviously promoted in order to tap into people's nationalist sentiments and all of that stuff as well.

But I obviously agree with you.


The constant reference to 9/11 is for playing upon the emotions of the American people. Bush and the GOP found out that if the kept on bringing up 9/11 the American people would get all emotional and support stupid things like invade Iraq, patriot act. and re-elect him.

It's a little more broad than what "Bush and the GOP" did. Nationalist sentiment spread because of its very nature, not simply because of its portrayal in the media. This wasn't some giant conspiracy by the ruling classes to spread nationalist sentiment, although they did certainly tap into it.



OOOH no, the truth is out there, plenty, plenty of info exists, but even people on the left are afraid to talk about it for fear of being called "conspiracy theory nuts". but there is plenty of info out there that no one will give answers to, and when people refuse to answer questions, that's an answer in and of itself. as the old saying goes, where there's smoke there's fire.

What info is there that no one will give answers to? I have no problem with turning this thread into a damning refutation of all the conspiracy theorist turds who make ridiculous claims without knowing what the fuck they're talking about.

BTW, I do find it quite silly for everyone to keep referring to the people in the twin towers as "innocent workers" as if these people were all proletarians. Seriously, relax the workerist rhetoric a bit please.

[The Red Next Door]

I wouldn't say its fair to say that America needs to "get over 9/11". Americans are right to feel saddened by the loss of some of the innocent workers in the twin towers. The twin towers weren't filled with rich capitalists and war mongers, I'd imagine the majority of people there were rank and file, wage workers.

However, people are right on the question of the American media and government's use of the event to justify the post 9/11 wars. People should be able to grieve on their own terms, without the direct influence of the right-wing media and the government.

Really we should be recognizing the people's grief, whilst pointing out the fact that the American media and government is using the tragic deaths of workers, by an elitist force, to justify the killing of workers and poor people in other parts of the world. I once saw an interview with an Israeli citizen, who's young daughter was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. Thanks to rational thought, he was able to assess the reasons behind the attack, without resorting to blame games; he drew conclusions that led him to understand that the problem was his own government. Does he not have the right to grieve the tragic loss of his daughter? Not all Americans buy their government or media's rhetoric, and their entitlement to grief is a separate issue.

All you will do, if you tell people to "get over 9/11", is piss them the fuck off and make the left look like a bunch of insensitive wank bags that aren't worth listening to anyway.

Sorry for the rant, I just thought that some of the terminology in this thread was anti-worker more than anti-government or anti-media.
There is a difference between remembering and dwelling on it, and boy do they totally dwell on it. Do we spend time dwelling on what the US done to communists around the world? No.

[Klaatu]

I wouldn't say its fair to say that America needs to "get over 9/11". Americans are right to feel saddened by the loss of some of the innocent workers in the twin towers. The twin towers weren't filled with rich capitalists and war mongers, I'd imagine the majority of people there were rank and file, wage workers.

You're right about the fact that we were attacked and people feel remorse about this.

The problem I have is that the USA right-wing conservatives use this over and over again for political gain. This is also fueled by propaganda machines such as Fox News, entirely for ratings (which means $$$)

9-11 victims should be remembered on days like today, the anniversary, not exploited by opportunists looking out for their own personal gain, 24/7.

[Chicano Shamrock]

OOOH no, the truth is out there, plenty, plenty of info exists, but even people on the left are afraid to talk about it for fear of being called "conspiracy theory nuts". but there is plenty of info out there that no one will give answers to, and when people refuse to answer questions, that's an answer in and of itself. as the old saying goes, where there's smoke there's fire.
Nobody is afraid to talk about it. It just makes yourself look stupid to everyone around you when it is discussed like it is an actual possibility.


Some people in this thread are disgusting. I once had a mangled, warped view of what my politics was too but as you get older you start to see things clearly. It's easy to say The World 1 point - The Imperialists 0 points. That is not reality though.

The reality is that those towers and streets were filled with innocent workers not Donald Rumsfelds and Hilary Clintons. You can't say America had it coming because the government and the people are seperate entities.

If anyone should know this stuff it should be us.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

You're right about the fact that we were attacked and people feel remorse about this.

The problem I have is that the USA right-wing conservatives use this over and over again for political gain. This is also fueled by propaganda machines such as Fox News, entirely for ratings (which means $$$)

9-11 victims should be remembered on days like today, the anniversary, not exploited by opportunists looking out for their own personal gain, 24/7.
I agree, therefore we shouldn't tell America to "get over 9/11", its not their fault that the bourgeois media uses the story to justify their actions.

Telling Americans to "get over 9/11" will just anger them.

[Hiero]

I can't name a single CEO that died in 9/11. Most were secretaries and middle management shlubs. No capitalists died, to my knowledge, and even if they did, it wasn't worth it and didn't achieve anything. It was a senseless loss of life.

I agree that the whole 9/11 spectacle should be given a rest, but let's not diminish the lives lost.

9/11 wasn't an instance of evil American imperialist capitalists getting what's coming. It was an instance of people with no power or influence dying as a result of the capitalist class's imperialist ventures

So what was the purpose of the World Trade Centre?

[AK]

So we should not forget 9-11, 4000 people died there
Thought it was 2977 + 17 hijackers?

[AK]

I don't think Americans should be "getting over" 9/11. It was a terrible tragedy that caused a great loss of life - and many will have memories that haunt them forever and many others would have lost friends and family. It should not be used by the ruling class to gain the workers' support for imperialist aggression or to build a false sense of "national unity". Rather, it should be remembered as a reaction to the imperialist crimes and meddling of the US government.

[La Comédie Noire]

Average Americans don't really care about September 11th, everyone I talked to today said they totally forgot till It was brought up by the news.

Hell, I didn't even put two and two together and I was on the front page of CNN this morning.

[The Red Next Door]

I agree, therefore we shouldn't tell America to "get over 9/11", its not their fault that the bourgeois media uses the story to justify their actions.

Telling Americans to "get over 9/11" will just anger them.

I am not telling them to forget, i am saying stop dwelling on it. fuck

[DragonQuestWes]

There's nothing wrong with remembering 9/11, but I will say that the only thing I hate about it is how right-wingers use it to justify Islamophobia.

[TwoSevensClash]

Its hard sometimes not to dwell on it when I watched the second plane hit and both towers fall wondering if my cousin who worked there was alive. Then having her come home and tell me about the people who jumped to their death rather then burn and the firefighters rushing in to go save people. Point is anyone who witnessed it person won't be forgetting it soon. Not that it at all justifies stupid fucking imperialist adventures in the middle east or the media miking it!

[#FF0000]

So what was the purpose of the World Trade Centre?

offices for middle management shlubs.

[Peace on Earth]

Everyone should take the time to truly investigate why thousands of people died that day. Was it a conspiracy? Maybe, maybe not. But why in hell would we accept the government narrative, when they've proven themselves to be horrible liars?

[RebelDog]

Conspiracy nuts aside. What happened that day was terrible, but it was only a mere taste of what US imperialism has done to the world coming back to haunt them. How many poor souls have perished since that dont have ceremonies to mark their passing?

[Antifa94]

hehe What a delightfully insensitive thread name!

[NoOneIsIllegal]

At work today, no one mentioned it. In the break-room, people were surprisingly agreeing on the Iraq war, being disgusted by it and the employment problem the soldiers will face when they come home. One guy said 80,000 people will return home to only be treated to fast-food and grocery store jobs. Then some random new custodian started talking about how the world economy is becoming internationalized, and how America has suppressed other countries economies and political situations and why they're just now starting to develop. Then he started talking about how ridicolous it was how America treated Cuba, and it's eagerness to make other countries be be aligned with USA policies. Sadly, I had to go back to work :rolleyes:
...It's weird, usually the most progressive/left/radical people I met at work are the janitors. The other 90% of people are totally reactionary, and deserve a swift kick to the face.

That's my story of the day. No 9/11 stuff.

[727Goon]

only on revleft...

[LeftistLord]

And many religious, dogmatic marxist-leninists of the USSR 20th century socialism. Like the people of marxist com who religiously agree with the CNN official version of what happened on 9-11. And like Noam Chomsky who said that Lenin and Trotsky were fascist right-wingers. Face it there are many leftists sects, cults and leftist organizations that are either too religious, too sectarian and too anti-scientific. They view the world as a dogma not using evidence-based world view.



Conspiracy nuts aside.

[Hiero]

offices for middle management shlubs.

And nothing to do with World Trade?

[#FF0000]

And nothing to do with World Trade?

Well yeah companies that were involved with "world trade" had offices there. Offices are filled with middle management shlubs or executives.

What is the point you're trying to make with this

[Hiero]

Well yeah companies that were involved with "world trade" had offices there. Offices are filled with middle management shlubs or executives.

What is the point you're trying to make with this

My point is this is where American capital does buisness. I don't know why you have to try dilute the class composition of the people who worked at the world trade. You and others make stragne claims of what the class composition of people at the WTC and immediatly follow with "sensless attack".

At as if you can't bear to say these people were the managers of finance capital, the same capital you supposedly protest against. As if making the connection you would have to take blame, as if you have some feeling of guilt that you don't want to be burdened with.

I am just finding it strange and trying to understand why people on this website can not admit that the WTC was more then just a block of offices with "middle management shlubs or executives", but an intergral part of USA imperialsm.

[TwoSevensClash]

My point is this is where American capital does buisness. I don't know why you have to try dilute the class composition of the people who worked at the world trade. You and others make stragne claims of what the class composition of people at the WTC and immediatly follow with "sensless attack".

At as if you can't bear to say these people were the managers of finance capital, the same capital you supposedly protest against. As if making the connection you would have to take blame, as if you have some feeling of guilt that you don't want to be burdened with.

I am just finding it strange and trying to understand why people on this website can not admit that the WTC was more then just a block of offices with "middle management shlubs or executives", but an intergral part of USA imperialsm.

It was but the problem is it wasn't like the Pentagon which was a purely military target. The WTC had to many innocents in and around it. The complex had hotels, restruants, churchs, a mall, and was a major tourist hot spot. Not to mention the over a hundred firefighters died trying to rescue people. Even if it was a major imperialist hub do the innocent passengers on the plane deserve to die?

[AK]

Everyone should take the time to truly investigate why thousands of people died that day. Was it a conspiracy? Maybe, maybe not. But why in hell would we accept the government narrative, when they've proven themselves to be horrible liars?
Because the terrorist theory is the most credible when we consider the motivation of the attack (reaction to US imperialism) and the potential outcomes of the attack (western economy could've gone ape-shit).

[#FF0000]

It was but the problem is it wasn't like the Pentagon which was a purely military target. The WTC had to many innocents in and around it. The complex had hotels, restruants, churchs, a mall, and was a major tourist hot spot. Not to mention the over a hundred firefighters died trying to rescue people. Even if it was a major imperialist hub do the innocent passengers on the plane deserve to die?

Yeah this is the point I was trying to make.

[Hiero]

It was but the problem is it wasn't like the Pentagon which was a purely military target. The WTC had to many innocents in and around it. The complex had hotels, restruants, churchs, a mall, and was a major tourist hot spot. Not to mention the over a hundred firefighters died trying to rescue people. Even if it was a major imperialist hub do the innocent passengers on the plane deserve to die?




Yeah this is the point I was trying to make.


And I was never arguing about anyone derserving to die. That isn't in question.

What I find on this website is people spew extreme class hate against caricatures of class enemies. The system is so much more complex with a matrix of class relations and not a dichotomy. The function of the WTC like Wall Street is of bourgeiosie buisness. It is a centre of class enemy activity.

I am not saying that it is a valid target of terrorist attacks, yet people assume that. I think the reason is because they have such a naive graps of the class sytem that if it doesn't fit in their dichotomy it overwhelms them. The fact that alot of people working in the WTC were functionaries for the bourgieosie is overwhelmin due to the emotional attachment that translate the criticims as support for terrorism. Find anywhere in my statments that condone terrorist attacks and then ask yourself why you thought I was implying this.

[4 Leaf Clover]

9/11 , innocent victims , terrorist , commemorating , osama bin laden , george bush blablablabla

and one more thing

since when , we , communist talk about , and regret innocent people ?

[bricolage]

since when , we , communist talk about , and regret innocent people ?
eh?

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Nobody is afraid to talk about it. It just makes yourself look stupid to everyone around you when it is discussed like it is an actual possibility.


Some people in this thread are disgusting. I once had a mangled, warped view of what my politics was too but as you get older you start to see things clearly. It's easy to say The World 1 point - The Imperialists 0 points. That is not reality though.

The reality is that those towers and streets were filled with innocent workers not Donald Rumsfelds and Hilary Clintons. You can't say America had it coming because the government and the people are seperate entities.

If anyone should know this stuff it should be us.


Well that's the point, they are fearful of bringing up all those points for fear of being call a "conspiracy nut". but to say all those people had it coming is rediculous.

But, yes, it is possible, and I will not be ashamed to say it.
example: why won't the government release all the confiscated videos from parking lot's, banks, hotels etc which show the so called "plane" hitting the pentagon? and many, many people saw it being hit and said it wasn't a plane. look at the hole, there are no entrance points where the wings entered as with the trade center, there's just one round hole.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Well that's the point, they are fearful of bringing up all those points for fear of being call a "conspiracy nut". but to say all those people had it coming is rediculous.

But, yes, it is possible, and I will not be ashamed to say it.
example: why won't the government release all the confiscated videos from parking lot's, banks, hotels etc which show the so called "plane" hitting the pentagon? and many, many people saw it being hit and said it wasn't a plane. look at the hole, there are no entrance points where the wings entered as with the trade center, there's just one round hole.
If you were high up in the American Imperialist government, would you release footage of the biggest attack on the headquarters of US defence in history?

Its in their interest to keep that footage out of the public eye, especially out of the reach of potential future attackers. That isn't any way to prove that a plane didn't hit it. Imperialism is not going to let any footage that could help people who want to blow up the Pentagon Centre.

[bricolage]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_of_the_Urinal_Deuce

[RED DAVE]

I am just finding it strange and trying to understand why people on this website can not admit that the WTC was more then just a block of offices with "middle management shlubs or executives", but an intergral part of USA imperialsm.And I am finding it horrifying that you can't figure out that most of the people who worked there were the likes of secretaries, maintenance people, messengers, security guards, elevator people, etc. Any office building in New York City is "an integral part of USA imperialism." Any school, any bridge or tunnel, in fact, virtually any public space in New York is "an integral part of USA imperialism." Does that make right-wing terrorism okay?

This attack, like nearly all terrorism, played right into the hands of the ruling class.

RED DAVE

[Hiero]

And I am finding it horrifying that you can't figure out that most of the people who worked there were the likes of secretaries, maintenance people, messengers, security guards, elevator people, etc.


I know that alot of the people who worked there would have been such types of blue and white collar workers. However what did they all do? Were the elevator people and maintance people there to maintian the elevators, so the messagers could send messages to the secretaries so the secretaries could manage thoose messenges to be spent to more messengers?

I don't understand why you are trying to persuade people that nothing actually happen at the WTC. You're making it sound like it was place people used to make themselves look busy.

Any why would it be "horrifying"? You would be horrified because I made a mistake? How do you feel when get capitals of states wrong? Mortified, disgusted?



Any office building in New York City is "an integral part of USA imperialism." Any school, any bridge or tunnel, in fact, virtually any public space in New York is "an integral part of USA imperialism." Does that make right-wing terrorism okay


Maybe integral was the wrong word. But the WTC like the Pentagon is a very specific component of US imperialism.


Does that make right-wing terrorism okay?

Why are you still asking this question?

Are you Americans having a panic attack? Is this question to overwhelming?

If I was saying these things about a country other then the USA I am sure people wouldn't be constantly asking me the same question over and over again as if you are trying to implicate me.

Honestly this is just getting wierd.

Here is a simple question. In your local city, when the local form of government takes the side of private companies over the citizens, so say gentrification or selling off utlilities for such gentrification, what is a normal target for a protest? It is usually state buildings like a parliament or chamber of council/buisness etc. Now in thoose buildings there are workers, just as you described. But the protest is not about them, the target is the building and the reason is its role it plays in the class struggle.

The WTC is excactly in the same scenerio. Regardless of how many thousand workers worked there, it is not known nor is it reason for existance there for workers, it does not exist soley for their employment. It is a central hub for bourgeois buisness. Hence why it was attacked by third world terrorists. The attack does not mean we put our head in the sand and forgot what that place was.

[KC]

Everyone should take the time to truly investigate why thousands of people died that day. Was it a conspiracy? Maybe, maybe not. But why in hell would we accept the government narrative, when they've proven themselves to be horrible liars?

Because it's not just the government narrative, it's common sense.


I know that alot of the people who worked there would have been such types of blue and white collar workers. However what did they all do? Were the elevator people and maintance people there to maintian the elevators, so the messagers could send messages to the secretaries so the secretaries could manage thoose messenges to be spent to more messengers?

I don't understand why you are trying to persuade people that nothing actually happen at the WTC. You're making it sound like it was place people used to make themselves look busy.

Any why would it be "horrifying"? You would be horrified because I made a mistake? How do you feel when get capitals of states wrong? Mortified, disgusted?

You could say the same thing about any office building...

[4 Leaf Clover]

eh?

What does it have to do with left pollitics , and why should a member of revolutionary left forum care about innocent victims of a terrorist attack. Get to the point. Discussion became pure chit chat like a comments page on news website.

And i do understand why people reject conspiracy theories , and are suspicious about them, but calling anyone who thinks attacks were a set-up , a lunatic is not right. Someone is being too emotional

[KC]

And i do understand why people reject conspiracy theories , and are suspicious about them, but calling anyone who thinks attacks were a set-up , a lunatic is not right. Someone is being too emotional

I find it completely reasonable to call someone that would believe in something so crazy, a lunatic. No emotion involved. That person is simply pure batshit insane to believe something so stupid and unrealistic.

[RED DAVE]

The WTC is excactly in the same scenerio. Regardless of how many thousand workers worked there, it is not known nor is it reason for existance there for workers, it does not exist soley for their employment. It is a central hub for bourgeois buisness. Hence why it was attacked by third world terrorists. The attack does not mean we put our head in the sand and forgot what that place was.We can understand quite well why it was attacked. But the fact is that the attack amounted to mass murder against working people and helped to consolidate bourgeois repression.

It was a symbol, yes, but a symbol filled with people who became the murder victims of the right-wing terrorists as they were economic victims of the capitalists. But I must say that the two victimizations are not equivalent.

RED DAVE

[4 Leaf Clover]

I find it completely reasonable to call someone that would believe in something so crazy, a lunatic. No emotion involved. That person is simply pure batshit insane to believe something so stupid and unrealistic.
although i dont believe attacks were a set up . there is many reasons for someone to believe

attacks were a perfect alibi for two wars , which filled someones pockets and emptied someone else's pockets. Afghanistan is a main route for drugs like heroin , and Iraq is Oil rich country , and war there affected oil prices so many time. Obviously the one who could fill his pockets out of these two wars were Capitalists , and the one who had to pay for the war were US citizens via their taxes. So please , i need explanation why such an idea would be crazy ? And what is crazy about what i said now ?

[KC]

Because the conspiracy itself is completely unrealistic and you would have to be batshit insane to believe it.

Which I already said.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Even if we to accept for the sake of argument the ridiculous caricature that the people in the World Trade Centre were all evil moustache-twirling capitalists, the attacks would still have been a disaster simply because of what followed from it.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Because the conspiracy itself is completely unrealistic
lets play a game

find piece of plane on this picture

http://www.911review.org/images/crash23.jpg

and find out how a plane that wasn't so hard to break the whole building , was hard enough to crash so hard that every single piece of it was blown into dust

http://911lies.org/images2/calculating_757_size_pentagon.jpg

http://911lies.org/911_pentagon_attack_damage.jpg



http://911lies.org/images2/no_hot_fire_pentagon.jpg


Now, 30 minutes after the missile pierced through 3 steel reinforced walls, leaving the hole shown in the picture above as it exited the last wall.
Are we supposed to believe it got hot enough to melt a 757 airliner, including two 6-ton titanium steel alloy engines? Not to mention, the 757 supposedly disintegrated, yet, you can see un-burnt desks, and un-melted computer screens immediately next to the impact sections.

http://911lies.org/images2/fligh_path_pentagon_911.jpg


the way airplane hit the building , and the way building was crashed dont fit

http://911lies.org/images2/pentagon_2.jpg



http://911lies.org/images2/pentagon_757_trajectory_impossible.jpg


How could a 757 clear highway structures @A and manage to strike point B without touching the ground? Physically impossible!

http://911lies.org/images2/camera_miss_this.jpg

the supposed part from being 757
http://911lies.org/images2/roter_skywarrior.jpg

only problem is , this is not boeing 757 part !

etc. etc. etc..

[KC]

Lol and you show your true colors.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Lol and you show your true colors.
what colors am i showing , and prove your claim :)

as i said , calling someone crazy just because you don't think something happened is arrogant. be so fair , and try to respond me , where the fuck is boeing 757 and why no one has ever seen it. Its a big plane dude.

i will cite


Supposedly 100 Tons of steel and titanium alloy completely disintegrated, yet, government forensics teams claim to have identified 180+ bodies.

the building and fire got so heated that they melted the plane , but computers and other acessories in the offices just next to the hole are untouched

[bricolage]

What does it have to do with left pollitics , and why should a member of revolutionary left forum care about innocent victims of a terrorist attack.
Because we are human.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

what colors am i showing , and prove your claim :)

as i said , calling someone crazy just because you don't think something happened is arrogant. be so fair , and try to respond me , where the fuck is boeing 757 and why no one has ever seen it. Its a big plane dude.

i will cite



the building and fire got so heated that they melted the plane , but computers and other acessories in the offices just next to the hole are untouched

Eat THIS (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp), kook.

[Tifosi]

Some people on the left really have a fetish for conspiracy 'theories' just because they are attacks on the bourgeoisie. It's pretty crap, don't make shit up if you want to attack the bourgeoisie, read some Marx or Korpotkin instead of wasting your time with idiots.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

lets play a game

find piece of plane on this picture

http://www.911review.org/images/crash23.jpg

and find out how a plane that wasn't so hard to break the whole building , was hard enough to crash so hard that every single piece of it was blown into dust

http://911lies.org/images2/calculating_757_size_pentagon.jpg

http://911lies.org/911_pentagon_attack_damage.jpg



http://911lies.org/images2/no_hot_fire_pentagon.jpg



http://911lies.org/images2/fligh_path_pentagon_911.jpg


the way airplane hit the building , and the way building was crashed dont fit

http://911lies.org/images2/pentagon_2.jpg



http://911lies.org/images2/pentagon_757_trajectory_impossible.jpg



http://911lies.org/images2/camera_miss_this.jpg

the supposed part from being 757
http://911lies.org/images2/roter_skywarrior.jpg

only problem is , this is not boeing 757 part !

etc. etc. etc..
[/SIZE]


My man, there is so, so, so much info out there that the families of the 911 victims want answered and no one will meet with them.communists are falling right in line by calling them nuts because they think reading the info that exists, and asking for answers to the volumes of questions, that they will be dismissed as clowns and not taken seriously in other areas.

here is another question, look at the crash in pennsylvania taken moments after the crash, there's just a hole, no fuelsalage, Engins, wings etc?

[Hiero]

You could say the same thing about any office building...


Say what? I was joking.



We can understand quite well why it was attacked. But the fact is that the attack amounted to mass murder against working people and helped to consolidate bourgeois repression.

It was a symbol, yes, but a symbol filled with people who became the murder victims of the right-wing terrorists as they were economic victims of the capitalists. But I must say that the two victimizations are not equivalent.

RED DAVE


Again with the attacks, I think I might just give up.



Even if we to accept for the sake of argument the ridiculous caricature that the people in the World Trade Centre were all evil moustache-twirling capitalists, the attacks would still have been a disaster simply because of what followed from it.


Where the hell did anyone invoke this caricature?

I honestly give up, you people need a therapist.

[Tatarin]

Aliens did 9/11.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

And the pyramids.

[NGNM85]

It was but the problem is it wasn't like the Pentagon which was a purely military target. The WTC had to many innocents in and around it. The complex had hotels, restruants, churchs, a mall, and was a major tourist hot spot. Not to mention the over a hundred firefighters died trying to rescue people. Even if it was a major imperialist hub do the innocent passengers on the plane deserve to die?

This is a very rational assessment. Sadly, but not surprisingly, many here are unable to grasp such basic truths. I give credit where credit's due. However, I do have some objections to the way this discussion has been framed;

First, this wasn't a defiant blow against imperialism, it was a calculated act of mass-murder. This has absolutely nothing in common with national liberation movements like the IRA, or radical left terrorists like Baader-Meinhof. By framing it in those terms we give credit where none is deserved.

These guys weren't the Sandinistas. They were fanatical psychopaths. Also, most of them were college educated, some had Ph.D's. These guys didn't come from a garbage dump in Gaza. Even if they had, they'd still be monsters. Ed Kemper had a childhood that would give you nightmares, but the first time he kidnapped, raped, and murdered a young coed, he crossed the line. That kind of suffering explains maladaptive behavior, but it doesn't excuse it.

There's no hypocrisy in condemning the War in Iraq, or US support of dictators like Mubarak, or Abdullah Aziz, and thugs like the 9/11 hijackers.

[Die Rote Fahne]

You forget that American's, at least the majority, have an unrivalled collective self-righteousness. That will prevent them from getting over it.

[AK]

why should a member of revolutionary left forum care about innocent victims of a terrorist attack.
Internationalism, working-class solidarity, it was a right-wing attack against innocent civilians (most of whom were working class), the victims' deaths were an indirect result of US imperialism. Do you see where I'm going with this?

[Tifosi]

Internationalism, working-class solidarity, it was a right-wing attack against innocent civilians (most of whom were working class), the victims' deaths were an indirect result of US imperialism. Do you see where I'm going with this?

4 leaf clover's post has to go in your Revleft's stupidest blog!:laugh:

[AK]

4 leaf clover's post has to go in your Revleft's stupidest blog!:laugh:
Already has, as of 2 hours and 21 minutes ago.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Eat THIS (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp), kook.
god i hate these conspiracy theories :rolleyes:.
everyone who claims 9/11 was terrorist attack is nuts and idiot and should be burned to death ! ... or not ?


4 leaf clover's post has to go in your Revleft's stupidest blog!:laugh:your posts has to go in revleft's stupidest blog. who cares


Already has, as of 2 hours and 21 minutes agothat so much hurted my feelings


Internationalism, working-class solidarity, it was a right-wing attack against innocent civilians (most of whom were working class), the victims' deaths were an indirect result of US imperialism. Do you see where I'm going with this?so far here is where you got with this

: you claim anyone with doubts about real story of 9/11 an idiot
: you want to connect someone's thoughts about 9/11 with someone's revolutionary point which obviously failed.

thats very arrogant of you , not to mention you dont bring up single argument whole time , just throw around some kiddie phrases

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

god i hate these conspiracy theories :rolleyes:.
everyone who claims 9/11 was terrorist attack is nuts and idiot and should be burned to death ! ... or not ?

You have nothing to say, so you resort to ludicrous strawmen. I rest my case.

[4 Leaf Clover]

You have nothing to say, so you resort to ludicrous strawmen. I rest my case.
you didn't respond on any of my questions and neither did the site you offered. Only thing that website offered is the picture of man in black suits , taking away the supposed plane parts from the scene immediately after attacks. Nor did you provide arguments why is everyone who doubts in official 9/11 theory a lunatic ? Just because you said it doesn't make it truth

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

you didn't respond on any of my questions and neither did the site you offered.

It offered plenty of counter-evidence to the claim that the Pentagon attack was carried out by anything other than a commercial airliner.


Only thing that website offered is the picture of man in black suits , taking away the supposed plane parts from the scene immediately after attacks.

What men in black suits? You are seriously sounding delusional.


Nor did you provide arguments why is everyone who doubts in official 9/11 theory a lunatic ? Just because you said it doesn't make it truth

No, I didn't say that every doubter is a lunatic; I said you were a kook. And judging by your reaction, I was correct in my assessment.

[4 Leaf Clover]

It offered plenty of counter-evidence to the claim that the Pentagon attack was carried out by anything other than a commercial airliner.
boeing 757 turning into dust is just unbelievable , leaving only hole and smoke behind




What men in black suits? You are seriously sounding delusional.

really ?

http://911lies.org/images2/no_evidence_of_757_pentagon.jpg

http://911lies.org/images2/planted_parts_pentagon.jpg




No, I didn't say that every doubter is a lunatic; I said you were a kook. And judging by your reaction, I was correct in my assessment.
Your personal emotions towards me really dont concern me , you consider me a lunatic because i doubt official story. Now is that or is it not the truth

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

boeing 757 turning into dust is just unbelievable , leaving only hole and smoke behind

The plane actually went into the building which then collapsed on top of it, which is why you don't see it from the outside.


really ?

<snip images>

1. Those pictures weren't on the link I provided.

2. It's Washington DC near the Pentagon, lots of people dress smart. They could be anyone.

3. The guy in the second picture isn't even wearing black. He just looks like he's clearing shit away, which is what happens after a major disaster.


Your personal emotions towards me really dont concern me , you consider me a lunatic because i doubt official story. Now is that or is it not the truth

I consider you a kook, not a lunatic. Your lack of critical thinking is hopefully limited to this issue, which you consider so important that it has sole place on your sig.

[Chicano Shamrock]

you didn't respond on any of my questions and neither did the site you offered. Only thing that website offered is the picture of man in black suits , taking away the supposed plane parts from the scene immediately after attacks. Nor did you provide arguments why is everyone who doubts in official 9/11 theory a lunatic ? Just because you said it doesn't make it truth
LOL you are so stuck in your ways. The image you posted were from something called 911Lies.com while you are trying to pass them off like they were on his rebuttal website. You can't have it both ways when you say there was no remnants of a plane and then you post pictures of people taking away plane parts.

This thread sucks and you are not the sharpest spoon in the drawer. I suggest you let this thread fade before you get yourself restricted or something.

[AK]

so far here is where you got with this

: you claim anyone with doubts about real story of 9/11 an idiot
: you want to connect someone's thoughts about 9/11 with someone's revolutionary point which obviously failed.

thats very arrogant of you , not to mention you dont bring up single argument whole time , just throw around some kiddie phrases
^This was not related to my reply at all. What I said was a response to you claiming that members of the revolutionary left should not care for innocent victims of a terrorist attack. Nowhere in the post you replied to did I attempt to debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories.

You truly have earned your place among Revleft's stupidest.

[4 Leaf Clover]

^This was not related to my reply at all. What I said was a response to you claiming that members of the revolutionary left should not care for innocent victims of a terrorist attack. Nowhere in the post you replied to did I attempt to debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories.

You truly have earned your place among Revleft's stupidest.
first of all , signature is a joke , second , i didn't say we shouldn't care for the victims , i said why are people using innocent victims as an argument in discussion. It looks like i said attacks are justified. Of course we all feel bad for what happened but thats not the point. The point is , 9/11 discussion looks like remembrance day more then leftist discussion.

Wbat i did and did not earn really , is your opinion which i couldn't care less for. Im here to discuss ideology not flame with few people who are overly emotional

[Comrade_Scott]

i felt no sympathy on 9/11, chickens and roosting came to mind. people can argue about the innocent lives lost but where was there sympathy when the us uses much needed aid as a weapon to get its way in the third world? where was the mass rage when they led my country to civil war in the 70's and 80's and the funding of panama through the 60's to 90's? as cold as it sounds ignorance is not bliss and 9/11 was americas stunning example. if you beat up people expect them to hit back, if you train a bunch of religious zealots in the art of war and terror tactics and then place troops in there most holy of holy (exaggeration only slight) expect to be fucked up. read a book or shut the fuck up, cant be an imperialist enjoy all its trappings and not expect to get some shit on your shoe.

[Rafiq]

Obviously it is not a good thing that people died on 9/11. But many of you are being serious hypocrites..

Unless you are going to talk about the MASS MURDERS the US has accomplished throughout the twentieth century, and even in the nineteenth(Native Americans) than I say this..

DO NOT give 9/11 ANY attention at all.

Is American blood more worthy than the blood of Vietnamese? Iraqis? 500,000 Iraqi children have died from US sanctions.. and Bombings in the Iraq War... Where is their attention?

If they get no Attention, I see no reason at all why 9/11 should get any attention.

In the end, all humans are equal, and I bet you if this happened in Algeria, Uruguay, or Ethiopia, no one would give a shit (Even though they are more likely to be attacked by Al Queda)..

[RadioRaheem84]

I just think that there is this notion in the United States that tells the average citizen that US-American blood spilled is worth more than foreign blood.

We should mourn the innocent people that died on 9/11 but we shouldn't act like this was the single act that "changed" the world as the media love to tout.

For some reason, the media tends to forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, September 11th 1973, Chernobyl, Bopal, the Gaza Strip, Sabra and Shatila and countless many other dates that are lodged into the psyche of other people around the world.

[AK]

Im here to discuss ideology not flame with few people who are overly emotional
All things considered, you still showed an incredibly disrespectful attitude to the victims. Defending them does not make me "overly-emotional".

[4 Leaf Clover]

All things considered, you still showed an incredibly disrespectful attitude to the victims. Defending them does not make me "overly-emotional".
insults i suffered few posts back definitely show someone can't control his/her emotions

but neither i want to play a victim , nor to continue discussion that is not anymore connected to the left , so i wish you farewell

[RATM-Eubie]

If you take a look at both sides of the story the conspiracy side and the official story side you will find that the official story makes a lot more sense than the conspiracy side.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If you take a look at both sides of the story the conspiracy side and the official story side you will find that the official story makes a lot more sense than the conspiracy side.

I reckon the "official" story doesn't include the litany of intelligence fuckups that led to the attack occurring despite a number of warnings.

Remember Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

In the case of the ruling classes, however, the corollary may apply; sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.

[ZeroNowhere]

if you beat up people expect them to hit back, if you train a bunch of religious zealots in the art of war and terror tactics and then place troops in there most holy of holy (exaggeration only slight) expect to be fucked up.
That generally doesn't happen; it didn't happen on 9/11 and it hasn't happened much since. Well, unless you count getting a shoe thrown at one as being 'fucked up'.


read a book or shut the fuck up, cant be an imperialist enjoy all its trappings and not expect to get some shit on your shoe.
You can, though. You can be an imperialist all you like, generally, so long as you don't have sex with interns.

Really, 9/11 was mostly the killing of a lot of people, thus leading to sudden shock for their families and so on, as a result of US imperialism. The people killed were generally not involved in imperialism, so that all it adds up to is a higher death toll for capitalism, and a nice boost for politicians as regards declaring war on others. Of course, these self-same politicians are presently concerned that some "marginal, powerless goober down in Florida", as Chris Floyd put it, happened to wish to burn a couple of Qur'ans, as this may, y'know, annoy a bunch of people in the Middle East (burning people, on the other hand, doesn't perturb them in the slightest). Oh yes, and also a momentary disturbance in the economy, which can, as we have seen, do better than that on its own. Not that it brought down capitalism, which is ultimately the only culprit here whose killing would actually change anything other than taking yet another human life without any real benefit to anybody.