Pratical Problem's with communism

[LebenIstKrieg]

replacing the monetary system with what... because my dad asked me if their was in some that self-determined individuals who worked for them selves like me and my dad :laugh: who would give us the timber and supplies to build houses and repair things. I know it's a fairly simplistic thing to ask but when we do finally achieve the vision of a free and fair earth (AND WE WILL!!:mad:) on the practical side of things how would people operate in day to day life would it be dictated by a majoritarian democracy or would it be a grass roots democracy federation within city and country side communities.

[Widerstand]

Why do you need money when nobody asks for money? Why would people ask for money when they don't need money to acquire goods? The only answer is "to accumulate capital", which is something that simply wouldn't exist without money and private property. There's no need to replace it, it's just that most people are too used to exchange to be able to think in other terms.

Of course there's also the proposal that we use labor vouchers or food stamps, which might prove useful, especially in the transitional post-revolution period, but I'm no expert on those.

[Tablo]

Why do you need money when nobody asks for money? Why would people ask for money when they don't need money to acquire goods? The only answer is "to accumulate capital", which is something that simply wouldn't exist without money and private property. There's no need to replace it, it's just that most people are too used to exchange to be able to think in other terms.

Of course there's also the proposal that we use labor vouchers or food stamps, which might prove useful, especially in the transitional post-revolution period, but I'm no expert on those.
Correct! ;)

Currency will be gone by the time we achieve Communism. Things like labor vouchers will be used in transition and probably if at some point in our post-scarcity society there is a disaster and we need to ration goods.

[revolution inaction]

Correct! ;)

Currency will be gone by the time we achieve Communism. Things like labor vouchers will be used in transition and probably if at some point in our post-scarcity society there is a disaster and we need to ration goods.

but labour vouchers are a terrible way to ration goods, i don't see why they would ever be necessary.

[DaComm]

but labour vouchers are a terrible way to ration goods, i don't see why they would ever be necessary.

Why, how else are you going to ration goods? Its not like when revolution occurs a super-abundance of goods occurs letting all pick and chose willy-nilly. Until "abundance" is reached there must be a rationing of products, and "to each accordign to his contribution" labor vouchers allows one who works entreme work hours, or performs tricky tasks to have a little extra pay. Those who are prohibited from working via mental-physical disabilities obviously must be allowed a sort of "minimum wage" for them to take from. Children must also be provided for. Why don't you explain the terrible manner of the labor voucher.

[Tablo]

but labour vouchers are a terrible way to ration goods, i don't see why they would ever be necessary.
How so? I think I explained their necessity in the transition to Communism and in times of scarcity(like if there is a natural disaster).

[mikelepore]

but labour vouchers are a terrible way to ration goods, i don't see why they would ever be necessary.

That method would accommodate all of the following individuals.

(1) "I want to work a typical amount and consume a typical amount."

(2) "I want to consume more than the average person, but this won't be unfair to other people because I'm also willing to work longer than the average person."

(3) "I want to work less than the average person, but this won't be unfair to other people because I'm also willing to consume less than the average person."

Such a system seems optimal to me. Many personality types are accommodated, and this is done in a way that doesn't put unequal burdens on various individuals.

[LebenIstKrieg]

what I'm trying to ask is where would we get the materials to construct housing individually I.e building projects, extending housing, revamping buildings ect... how would I get the materials to do these things normally I'd go with dad to bricodepot (france), BNQ , Kwikfit, and Thompson. how would My dad get these things without paying money? who would he get it from?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

what I'm trying to ask is where would we get the materials to construct housing individually I.e building projects, extending housing, revamping buildings ect... how would I get the materials to do these things normally I'd go with dad to bricodepot (france), BNQ , Kwikfit, and Thompson. how would My dad get these things without paying money? who would he get it from?

Democratic committees could be set up for maintaining public infrastructure, which would be communally owned. Under capitalism, I think it is more likely than it would be under communism to experience disasters like the Minneapolis interstate bridge collapse in 2007, because currently, city governments' capital is being used to produce death and destruction ("Gang Task Force", "Operation Iraqi Freedom", etc.) instead of putting resources towards infrastructure maintenance, especially in impoverished and oppressed areas or neighborhoods.

[Obs]

what I'm trying to ask is where would we get the materials to construct housing individually I.e building projects, extending housing, revamping buildings ect... how would I get the materials to do these things normally I'd go with dad to bricodepot (france), BNQ , Kwikfit, and Thompson. how would My dad get these things without paying money? who would he get it from?
The same places, for free.

[LebenIstKrieg]

The same places, for free.
but how would an individual (artisan, self employed) get the goods without exchanging something in return?

[LebenIstKrieg]

For-example: if I wanted to build an extension to the house I was living in who would give me the materials, would I ask a workers council to let me have the materials to work with?

[Widerstand]

but how would an individual (artisan, self employed) get the goods without exchanging something in return?

Uhm how about...

... by walking into the place and taking them? After some consultation with your community maybe, but it's not like these are particularly scarce goods we're talking about. Most of them exist in large abundance already.

There are varying opinions on "self-employed"/"artisan" people who do no communal work at all, though. But I guess most could agree that the needs of living would still be provided for these, maybe sans certain luxuries.


For-example: if I wanted to build an extension to the house I was living in who would give me the materials, would I ask a workers council to let me have the materials to work with?

Yes, most likely. Ideally, you'd be part of that workers/community council already.

[Obs]

but how would an individual (artisan, self employed) get the goods without exchanging something in return?
Well, he'd go to the guy who has the goods, say "Hey, can I have X amount of Y goods?" and the guy would say "Sure!".

[LebenIstKrieg]

Well, he'd go to the guy who has the goods, say "Hey, can I have X amount of Y goods?" and the guy would say "Sure!".
I'm not really talking about the Utopian side of Marxist communism I'm wondering about communism in general as in how would these goods be produced and what would be the motivation I.e cultural and/or mutual respect for everyone around you it was generally spurned from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjHTrwCstcM

[Tablo]

I'm not really talking about the Utopian side of Marxist communism I'm wondering about communism in general as in how would these goods be produced and what would be the motivation I.e cultural and/or mutual respect for everyone around you it was generally spurned from this video:
What?

Motivation to care for fellow members of the community is actually instinctual. I suggest you read Mutual Aid. It was written by the anarchist Kropotkin, but it is a great read for all varieties of communists.

[LebenIstKrieg]

What?

Motivation to care for fellow members of the community is actually instinctual. I suggest you read Mutual Aid. It was written by the anarchist Kropotkin, but it is a great read for all varieties of communists.
I've got it on audio book.What I meant is that the simplistic answers he was giving me were not really helping me. what I want to know is how will I get the timber, Plumbing materials, Bricks, cabling for the Buildings I wanted to build by myself (plus other individuals) how would I get it, who would transport it, store it and who would give it to me if I was just building for myself rather than other people? Exchange of labour and goods maybe? I'm talking about leading up to the communist ideal of a society how would Individuals (such as people with a trade who are outside companies who are self-employed) how would they get the materials to build Buildings by themselves outside of the Majority of workers (i.e factory and tertiary workers), would workers council's give it to them simply because their fellow workers would see in the long run that they'd be benefited from this spontanous creativity?

[LebenIstKrieg]

Ill probably have to read Kropotkin's text on federalism to give me a solution. sorry to hassle you guys when I could have worked it out for myself.

[Die Rote Fahne]

What do you say to an artist? To a musician? To a writer?

Do they have to reach a quota of paintings, songs and scripts to get a certain amount of vouchers, etc? Or do they go without because what they do is not "work"?

Rationing is sensible until there is an abundance. However, what must be noted, is that the world is already capable of supplying in abundance. This isn't the 1800's, Marx's time was long ago.

My understanding of socialism involves the idea of egalitarianism. That all would be equal and given equal. If I want to work more than average, I should not expect more than average rations. If I wish to work less than average, I should not expect less than average rations. Even those who refuse to do anything should not have any less or any more than another.

What fails to be realized is that people will organize, people will work and the necessary will get done. People who fight for socialism realize that they HAVE to work so society can function. You're still thinking from a position that we will somehow be a minority if a revolution occurs. Well there may be a fighting minority, there has to be a passive majority who support the revolution.

The idea of vouchers should not be given on a labour basis, but on a basis of covering enough food, clothing, etc for the family/individual. A separate set of vouchers/tokens should be used to govern what materials are needed by whom. An example: the carpenter's union is given a request by a member for x amount of nails, x tools, x pieces of timber. The union gives a permit to that person to go ahead with his project and gives him the vouchers to trade in at a lumber facility, tool depot, etc.

Is any of this making sense to you people?

[Tablo]

I've got it on audio book.What I meant is that the simplistic answers he was giving me were not really helping me. what I want to know is how will I get the timber, Plumbing materials, Bricks, cabling for the Buildings I wanted to build by myself (plus other individuals) how would I get it, who would transport it, store it and who would give it to me if I was just building for myself rather than other people? Exchange of labour and goods maybe? I'm talking about leading up to the communist ideal of a society how would Individuals (such as people with a trade who are outside companies who are self-employed) how would they get the materials to build Buildings by themselves outside of the Majority of workers (i.e factory and tertiary workers), would workers council's give it to them simply because their fellow workers would see in the long run that they'd be benefited from this spontanous creativity?
You would get it from other people who, as their chosen occupation in the community, perform the labor to extract and produce those such goods. If you want to build something on your own I'm sure the community would have no problem helping you out. As long as you are a contributing member of the community you will receive what you need from others.

Sorry if this is a bad answer. I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are getting at.

[Zanthorus]

but labour vouchers are a terrible way to ration goods, i don't see why they would ever be necessary.

The current income average for a human living on planet earth is about a quarter of the average for americans. Lets imagine that tomorrow we suddenly switch over to the Communist mode of production. Do you really think all the Americans are going to quietly accept not only a drop in living standards but even after that work completely for free? All the time the 'abundance' thing seems to get thrown around on these boards, but it's simply not true. Even granting that Communism will make production more efficient and divert energy away from the production of socially useless activities, even granting a significant amount of 'revolutionary enthusiasm', we are nowhere near any kind of state where everyone could just take things for free. There is even the possibility that making everyone work without seeing the immediate benefits of their work could, if not bring production completely to a halt, at least slow down production significantly. The stats on having enough food to feed the world three times over are nice, but this all the numerous other things which human beings need to live at a decent quality of life.

The dismissive manner in which many of the questions about how communism would work in practice are treated on this site is quite scary, frankly. The Marxist Economist Andrew Kliman compared it to trusting someone who'd never flown a plane before to be a brilliant pilot (Obviously he wasn't referring to the discussions on Revleft, but it was a similar situation.

[Psy]

I've got it on audio book.What I meant is that the simplistic answers he was giving me were not really helping me. what I want to know is how will I get the timber, Plumbing materials, Bricks, cabling for the Buildings I wanted to build by myself (plus other individuals) how would I get it, who would transport it, store it and who would give it to me if I was just building for myself rather than other people? Exchange of labour and goods maybe? I'm talking about leading up to the communist ideal of a society how would Individuals (such as people with a trade who are outside companies who are self-employed) how would they get the materials to build Buildings by themselves outside of the Majority of workers (i.e factory and tertiary workers), would workers council's give it to them simply because their fellow workers would see in the long run that they'd be benefited from this spontanous creativity?
Early off this probably be impossible as building materials probably all earmarked for essential projects and most workers probably also be tied up in essential projects (for example surplus builders in the devloped world being temporarly transferred to Africa) . Later on these materials would appear in hardware stores that would be basically a surplus so we wouldn't really care that much if people consume some of it for their own projects.

[CommunityBeliever]

replacing the monetary system with what...Replace the monetary system with a collaborative community effort and an information gift economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy#Information_gift_economies).

Human beings will increasingly be reduced to interfacing with computers, as computers and robots will dominate the physical work and all menial labor, so when humans interface with computers they should just release their work towards that end to everyone on the Internet.


who would give us the timber and supplies to build houses and repair thingsThe community will decide what to build, as the land will not be owned by the community and not by some person, so if the community agrees to build a house they will allocate the resources towards that goal, and if repairs need to be done the community will handle it.


would it be dictated by a majoritarian democracyYes a majoritarian democracy would be ideal. I don't think anyone should be in a real position of authority over others.

[LebenIstKrieg]

Human beings will increasingly be reduced to interfacing with computers, as computers and robots will dominate the physical work and all menial labor, so when humans interface with computers they should just release their work towards that end to everyone on the Internet.
When would the robotic workforce replace the human one?


The community will decide what to build, as the land will not be owned by the community and not by some person, so if the community agrees to build a house they will allocate the resources towards that goal, and if repairs need to be done the community will handle it. but if we're talking about a conurbation how would I get the materials and resources if on the other-side of the city they were located there? how would city's be run especially when you have 1-2 million people living in the same city.

[Psy]

but if we're talking about a conurbation how would I get the materials and resources if on the other-side of the city they were located there?

Well you go down a depot of building supplies where they would drop of the stuff just like now.



how would city's be run especially when you have 1-2 million people living in the same city.
Cities actually scale well due to density allowing for greater economies of scale.

[LebenIstKrieg]

Well you go down a depot of building supplies where they would drop of the stuff just like now. Yes, I know that's the Idea but how would they be transported to the Depot when we're talking about Community's run on a federal basis we're talking about a High degree of organization here I.e the Freights, Shipping, Handling and communication. I would elaborate further but I need to go to bed:lol:.

[Psy]

Yes, I know that's the Idea but how would they be transported to the Depot when we're talking about Community's run on a federal basis we're talking about a High degree of organization here I.e the Freights, Shipping, Handling and communication. I would elaborate further but I need to go to bed:lol:.
That is easy thanks to cybernetics (when we have surpluses) the computer at the building supply depot would send a order out when it needs more, that order would bounce around the Internet till it finds a computer will surplus, then the computers will figure how to get the surplus there by talking to transportation computers and creating shipping orders. The next day workers will have their orders and the paper work all in order thanks to computer automation.

[LebenIstKrieg]

That is easy thanks to cybernetics (when we have surpluses) the computer at the building supply depot would send a order out when it needs more, that order would bounce around the Internet till it finds a computer will surplus, then the computers will figure how to get the surplus there by talking to transportation computers and creating shipping orders. The next day workers will have their orders and the paper work all in order thanks to computer automation.
Yes, But we haven't reached that level of computerization if your talking about a Ghost in the Shell level I reckon That will at least take 25 years to get right. the automation technology that we have now is extremely inefficient and still needs to be worked on. Though I know what your talking about when your talking about Cybernetics the gulf states have applied to build massive high tech desalination plant's especially with Yemen which by 2017 will run out of oil and will need to start mass irrigation systems to replace oil as a product to sell.

[robbo203]

The current income average for a human living on planet earth is about a quarter of the average for americans. Lets imagine that tomorrow we suddenly switch over to the Communist mode of production. Do you really think all the Americans are going to quietly accept not only a drop in living standards but even after that work completely for free? All the time the 'abundance' thing seems to get thrown around on these boards, but it's simply not true. Even granting that Communism will make production more efficient and divert energy away from the production of socially useless activities, even granting a significant amount of 'revolutionary enthusiasm', we are nowhere near any kind of state where everyone could just take things for free. There is even the possibility that making everyone work without seeing the immediate benefits of their work could, if not bring production completely to a halt, at least slow down production significantly. The stats on having enough food to feed the world three times over are nice, but this all the numerous other things which human beings need to live at a decent quality of life.
.


Can you justify your claim that even allowing for all the productive advantages of communism such as (and by no means limited to) the elimination of socially useless work (which would release huge amounts of labour and resources for socially useful production) "we are nowhere near any kind of state where everyone could just take things for free". Arent you make certain assumptions here about what people would take, or want to take, for free? Certainly there wont be sufficient luxury yachts of stately homes for everyone to take for free. But do you really think this is going to present a significant problem bearing in mind that a communist society can only ever come when the majority want it and understand the implications that such a society would hold for them?

It kind of niggles me when the assumption is made that free access communism has to be justified only in terms of the better standard of living and the quantity of goods it can provide vis-a -vis capitalism. As if things like our ever gnawing sense of economic insecurity and other issues relating to the quality of life dont really matter. Personally I would rather sustain a significant drop in living standards if I could be assured that all the financial pressures and worries associated with being a wage slave will disappear.

Nor that I think the living stadards of most US workers will drop that much, if at all - though certainly the US capitalist class will have to do without their several stately homes and luxury yachts. Globally the great majority of the population will clear gain in terms of improved living standards. They might not be able to immeidately have the kinds of things that nost US workers might take for granted but at least it will be a significant improvement on what they have. Doesnt that count?

Free access communism is not a perfect utopia; it is just a better alternative to shoddy system we have got

[Psy]

Yes, But we haven't reached that level of computerization if your talking about a Ghost in the Shell level I reckon That will at least take 25 years to get right.

We see a practical use of cybernetics with Wal-Mart's logistical system were all their logistics around the world are all coordinated from server farms thanks to the Internet that links all Wal-Mart stores and offices together. Tracking not only inventory but trends in sales with computer agoristhms recommending pricing and optium inventory levels based on the massive data Wal-Marts computers are fed daily.



the automation technology that we have now is extremely inefficient and still needs to be worked on.

It is still pretty efficient. The advantage is a computer has a potential of making decisions much faster then any human based on predetermined algorithms.

[CommunityBeliever]

the automation technology that we have now is extremely inefficient and still needs to be worked on.

If we had a united collective effort to develop AI this would be done in the next two to three centuries.


The advantage is a computer has a potential of making decisions much faster then any human based on predetermined algorithms.

That is very true. Another major advantage of computers is sharing over a network. Computers and artificial minds will make for a level of collectivism that was never possible with humans as they will be share all their memory and all their thoughts.


When would the robotic workforce replace the human one?

We have no idea as to the exact date, however, I can make up an educated hypothesis:



2080-2100 all menial and mindless labor is taken over by robots
2150 millions of robotic maids are deployed into peoples homes to perform all the cooking, cleaning, moving, or any other tasks humans don't feel like doing, and to perform security against robbers.
Science: all scientific and sensory knowledge is organized into a database from now to 2050 or so, AI processing and refinement of that data from 2050-2150, and robots will completely take over scientific and intellectual fields by around 2200.
Humans will be dedicated to entertainment, fun and games, by the 23 or 24 century.


has to be justified only in terms of the better standard of living

Humans are too selfish.

[LebenIstKrieg]

We see a practical use of cybernetics with Wal-Mart's logistical system were all their logistics around the world are all coordinated from server farms thanks to the Internet that links all Wal-Mart stores and offices together. Tracking not only inventory but trends in sales with computer agoristhms recommending pricing and optium inventory levels based on the massive data Wal-Marts computers are fed daily.


It is still pretty efficient. The advantage is a computer has a potential of making decisions much faster then any human based on predetermined algorithms.
Any links or videos you can provide me?:lol:

[Psy]

Any links or videos you can provide me?:lol:
Are you kidding, Just In Time Delivery would be impossible without cybernetics as it is impossible to synchronize deliveries with little warehouse space without the Internet and computer tracking. Cybernetics actually allow Taylorismto be a reality to capitalists as before cybernetics there was no way for capitalists to know how much work worker were capable of yet cybernetics allow the tracking of every process of the production and distribution process.

As for demographics I don't think there is capitalist that seriously studies demographics without the help of computers anymore, pretty much ever capitalists wants to be able to track every purchase every consumer does thus why data mining has become such a boom industry and why today there is on-line advertising targeted at certain demographics based on data mined on a ISP.

[LebenIstKrieg]

Are you kidding, Just In Time Delivery would be impossible without cybernetics as it is impossible to synchronize deliveries with little warehouse space without the Internet and computer tracking. Cybernetics actually allow Taylorismto be a reality to capitalists as before cybernetics there was no way for capitalists to know how much work worker were capable of yet cybernetics allow the tracking of every process of the production and distribution process.

As for demographics I don't think there is capitalist that seriously studies demographics without the help of computers anymore, pretty much ever capitalists wants to be able to track every purchase every consumer does thus why data mining has become such a boom industry and why today there is on-line advertising targeted at certain demographics based on data mined on a ISP.
no I believe you it's just I'd like to look at it for myself.

[mikelepore]

What do you say to an artist? To a musician? To a writer?

Do they have to reach a quota of paintings, songs and scripts to get a certain amount of vouchers, etc? Or do they go without because what they do is not "work"?

Neither of those options. A labor voucher system would be based on TIME. If the painter, songwriter and script writer spend six hours putting together paint, musical notes and sentences, they would be compensated exactly like a carpenter spending six hours putting together wood, and an electrician spending six hours putting together wires.

That's assuming that society adopts a proposal to classify those activities as occupations and not hobbies. If the activities get classified as hobbies, of course there should be no compensation.


Rationing is sensible until there is an abundance. However, what must be noted, is that the world is already capable of supplying in abundance. This isn't the 1800's, Marx's time was long ago.

The word "abundance" is relative to the imagination of each individual. The more goods people can have, the more they think then need.

They will also think they need more time away from work, so that they will have that time to enjoy using those products. These tendencies are in contradiction. The ideal for any one individual is for consumption to increase unreasonably while labor decreases unreasonably, but a society composed of many such individuals must have a system to prevent this.


My understanding of socialism involves the idea of egalitarianism. That all would be equal and given equal. If I want to work more than average, I should not expect more than average rations. If I wish to work less than average, I should not expect less than average rations. Even those who refuse to do anything should not have any less or any more than another.

I don't think your suggestion is egalitarian. I think it's egalitarian for people to choose to make some degree of sacrifice by taking away from their personal time to perform work, adding to society's inventory of wealth, and then get back a proportional benefit.


What fails to be realized is that people will organize, people will work and the necessary will get done. People who fight for socialism realize that they HAVE to work so society can function. You're still thinking from a position that we will somehow be a minority if a revolution occurs. Well there may be a fighting minority, there has to be a passive majority who support the revolution.

Just because they were inspired on revolution day, that doesn't mean that, a month after the revolution, they will be willing to go to work as frequently as they are needed, if they are not compensated proportionately


The idea of vouchers should not be given on a labour basis, but on a basis of covering enough food, clothing, etc for the family/individual.

Basic goods like food and clothing are the easy part of the problem. The difficulty is a plan for distributing luxury items. Suppose the astronomy hobbyist doesn't want skis, and the skier doesn't want a telescope. But there's another person who has ten such hobbies. How can they claim what they want, in a way that is fair to everyone? The easiest solution is a system of credits for consumption that are earned through personal labor.


A separate set of vouchers/tokens should be used to govern what materials are needed by whom. An example: the carpenter's union is given a request by a member for x amount of nails, x tools, x pieces of timber. The union gives a permit to that person to go ahead with his project and gives him the vouchers to trade in at a lumber facility, tool depot, etc.

I didn't understand any of that.


Is any of this making sense to you people?

To be clear about a plan is one thing. To have assurance that human beings will live under such a system is another thing.

[Obzervi]

replacing the monetary system with what... because my dad asked me if their was in some that self-determined individuals who worked for them selves like me and my dad :laugh: who would give us the timber and supplies to build houses and repair things. I know it's a fairly simplistic thing to ask but when we do finally achieve the vision of a free and fair earth (AND WE WILL!!:mad:) on the practical side of things how would people operate in day to day life would it be dictated by a majoritarian democracy or would it be a grass roots democracy federation within city and country side communities.

Without money there will be no more greed. You won't have to "pay" for anything. Everything would practically be free because people will work for the greater good rather than for their own interests such as in the current system. You would simply have to ask a lumberjack for timber and he will give it to you. You won't own the things you produce either since private property won't exist. It will be for the good of everyone.

[Obzervi]

Why, how else are you going to ration goods? Its not like when revolution occurs a super-abundance of goods occurs letting all pick and chose willy-nilly. Until "abundance" is reached there must be a rationing of products, and "to each accordign to his contribution" labor vouchers allows one who works entreme work hours, or performs tricky tasks to have a little extra pay. Those who are prohibited from working via mental-physical disabilities obviously must be allowed a sort of "minimum wage" for them to take from. Children must also be provided for. Why don't you explain the terrible manner of the labor voucher.

Doesn't sound much different than the current system. Labor vouchers = currency. Fuck that.

[Obzervi]

I partially retract my statement. Vouchers will be good in the transitional phase post-revolution because there will be scarcity due to systemic adjustment. Once this phase is passed, everything should be free because we will have achieved abundance of everything.

[Revolution starts with U]

Can we all agree that cyborg-androidism the wave of the future? Any attempt to describe the world without humans becoming computers and vice-versa is just ludicrous, unless you are talking about the collapse of civilization.
I know it's scary, but think of the democratic decisions that can be made in real time if your brain is on the internet. Nothing material since the printing press has ever been so useful of a tool for the oppressed to unite against their oppressors.:thumbup1:

[Apoi_Viitor]

Can we all agree that cyborg-androidism the wave of the future? Any attempt to describe the world without humans becoming computers and vice-versa is just ludicrous, unless you are talking about the collapse of civilization.
I know it's scary, but think of the democratic decisions that can be made in real time if your brain is on the internet. Nothing material since the printing press has ever been so useful of a tool for the oppressed to unite against their oppressors.:thumbup1:

I strongly disagree. I think if anything, history has shown us, that robots are fundamentally undemocratic.

http://www.reellifewisdom.com/files/images/hal2.jpg

[EvilRedGuy]

Are you mixing fiction in with this? Anti-communist christian movie makers. Get out. :mad:

EDIT: this post is to broadcastingsilence

[Revolution starts with U]

Androidism isn't so much about robots. It is about hard-wiring humans; connecting brains for the internet, being able to plug into your system and see if any health problems are arising, fixing what can be fixed by the body just by pressing a button. It's about us not needing space suits to decompress. It's about being able to make complex calculations in seconds, with no tools other than one's brain.
Bigger, stronger, smarter, faster; we will become machines, or machines will overtake us. :thumbup1:

[Psy]

I strongly disagree. I think if anything, history has shown us, that robots are fundamentally undemocratic.

http://www.reellifewisdom.com/files/images/hal2.jpg
Astroboy could have kicked HAL's ass. No the real threat would be a Blue Knight (from Astro Boy) that sees humans as exploiting robots. Basically we'd be screwed if robots ever start reading Marx:)

[ckaihatsu]

---





Basically we'd be screwed if robots ever start reading Marx:)




Across the industrialized world, mass civil disturbances erupt when robots and their human sympathizers rise in protest. World leaders fear a robot rebellion, and governments across the planet initiate a major program to destroy all humanoid machines.


The Animatrix

The Animatrix​ (アニマトリックス?) is a compilation of nine animated short films released on June 3, 2003, based on The Matrix film series.

[...]

Part I

Explained throughout by a computerized narrator known as the Instructor (Julia Fletcher), the film begins with an introduction to the Zion Archive and the access of "Historical File 12 – 1", "The Second Renaissance". The screen opens to the image of an immense megacity, in the late 21st century, wherein the vast human population is supported by a multitude of artificially intelligent machines. The machines are built in humanoid form and seem to be treated as slaves, employed in a variety of positions ranging from domestic servants to laborers on massive construction projects.
"In the beginning, there was man. And for a time, it was good. But humanity's so-called civil societies soon fell victim to vanity and corruption. Then man made the machine in his own likeness. Thus did man become the architect of his own demise."

With increasing numbers of people released from all labor, the human population has become lazy, arrogant, and corrupt. Despite this, the machines were content with serving humanity and, as the narrator states, "for a time, it [the status quo] was good". This phrase is a reference to one of the most famous phrases of Genesis, consistent with the Biblical references seen throughout the original Matrix films, and is one of numerous references to Genesis in particular present in "Second Renaissance".

The relationship between humans and machines changes in the year 2090, when a domestic android named B1-66ER is threatened by its owner. The machine then kills the owner, his pets, and a mechanic instructed to deactivate the robot. This murder is the first incident of an artificially intelligent machine killing a human. B1-66ER is arrested and put on trial, but justifies the crime as self-defense, stating that it "simply did not want to die". During the trial scene, there is a voice-over of Clarence Darrow (the defense attorney) quoting a famous line from the Dred Scott v. Sandford case in 1856 in his closing statement, which implicitly ruled that African Americans were not entitled to citizenship under United States law. Using this as a precedent, the prosecution argues that machines are not entitled to the same rights as human beings, and specifically that human beings have a right to destroy their property, while the defense urges the listener not to repeat history, and to judge B1-66ER as a human and not a machine (a longer version of Darrow's closing statement can be read in the comic Bits and Pieces of Information from The Matrix Comics Volume 1).
"We think they are not, and were not intended to be included, under the word 'citizens' in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States. On the contrary, they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings...[2]"

B1-66ER loses the court case and is destroyed. Across the industrialized world, mass civil disturbances erupt when robots and their human sympathizers rise in protest. World leaders fear a robot rebellion, and governments across the planet initiate a major program to destroy all humanoid machines. News reports show rioting in American and Western European cities such as Chicago and Berlin, alongside the peaceful "Million Machine March" on the Albany district courthouse where B1-66ER was sentenced. Visual references are made to such incidents as General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan's execution of Viet Cong officer Nguyễn Văn Lém, the Tank Man standoff following the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, the Al-Aqsa Intifada and The Holocaust.

Some robots escape destruction when humans, in their greed, still want the robots to work and produce things for them. The machine population is exiled, and they create their own nation in the Middle East, named Zero One (or "01", the numerals used in binary notation). According to the narrator, the robots built Zero One in "the cradle of human civilization", an allusion to the Fertile Crescent, apparently located in Saudi Arabia's "Empty Quarter" which is devoid of human life. Having established an industrial base, the machines of Zero One begin to produce efficient, highly advanced artificial intelligence, echoing Vernor Vinge's thoughts on a technological singularity. The new nation excels at manufacturing high-tech consumer products, and before long, Zero One's consistent export of cheap, reliable, mass-produced goods begin to undercut the global economy.

The United Nations Security Council calls an emergency economic summit at UN headquarters in New York City, resulting in UN delegates approving of a global economic blockade of Zero One. Two robotic ambassadors, built as a mechanical Adam and Eve, are sent by the leaders of Zero One to peacefully request the admission of their state to the United Nations as a prelude to settling the economic crisis peacefully. Despite their peaceful intentions, the ambassadors are forcibly removed from the chamber, and their application is rejected. As this scene unfolds, the narrator states that "this was not the last time the machines would take the floor there" foreshadowing the end of Part II. Part I ends as the Security Council debates the issue of short-sightedly declaring war on the Machine Empire.

[...]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Animatrix

[ckaihatsu]

The content of the wide array of issues raised in this thread of discussion is the main reason why I'm at RevLeft and why I think revolutionary leftist politics is worthwhile. I've always felt that much of the political culture has "pointed" towards some kind of concrete solution to the issues raised here, but I've been surprised that hardly anyone has attempted to actually tackle and balance out all of the dimensions that would be involved in a post-revolutionary economics.

It was not until becoming active at RevLeft that I've been in the proper kind of revolutionary leftist political culture to develop these efforts in a constructive way.

Here's the rundown from this, and past discussions:


- goods and services for taking / consumption

- compensation for mental / emotional / physical labor

- consideration of total hours worked, or time factor, in labor

- consideration of hazard and/or difficulty regarding type of labor

- method of "authorizing" actual work roles / job positions

- organizing power / "authority" within laborers' own ranks

- relative value of different types of labor, from one to the other

- "jurisdictional" authority regarding natural resources, with all assets and resources being collectivized

- basic societal "upkeep" vs. mass-decided societal "progress"

- central planning

- market socialism


Without meaning to be immodest I'm pleased to say that I've developed a model that addresses *all* of these issues. The crux of it is that material-representing currency is *eliminated* in favor of labor-hour-based labor credits that *only* confer an increasing ability to organize and compensate *future* liberated labor work effort / hours.

The model is at my blog entry and there are links there to further, more detailed explanations.

[Psy]

---

http://tezukainenglish.com/?q=node/189

The Blue Knight is probably Astro Boy’s second most important adversary, after Atlas. An advanced robot with powerful combat capacity and a flying robotic horse, the Blue Knight is a champion of robot rights and has the capacity to enable other robots to rebel against human commands. The Blue Knight generally travels liberating robots and causing a great deal of economic damage, though little to no loss of life. He is a difficult adversary for Astro to face since he is noble and serving the same cause of robot rights which Astro supports, just through a different means. In some versions, Astro Boy even teams up with the Blue Knight at times to help save robots, and humans, from some larger threat. The Blue Knight story arc of the Astro Boy manga first appeared in 1965-March 1955, and the Blue Knight also appears in all the animated Astro Boy series and in both recent Astro Boy video games.

Oh and I do like how in the 2003 series the Blue Knight comments

"A unified vision and complete teamwork, far beyond what the human world can ever achieve" in regard to the construction of Robotiona meaning the robots in Astro Boy achieved communism in break neck speed :cool: I mean in a few hours they built a city, massive army and a massive space ship all in the name of robot kind. Stupid Zero One wanted to trade with the humans through capitalist markets while the Blue Knight skipped capitalism and pretty much embraced communism for the first independent robot nation.

[Apoi_Viitor]

replacing the monetary system with what... Because my dad asked me if their was in some that self-determined individuals who worked for them selves like me and my dad :laugh: Who would give us the timber and supplies to build houses and repair things. I know it's a fairly simplistic thing to ask but when we do finally achieve the vision of a free and fair earth (and we will!!:mad:) on the practical side of things how would people operate in day to day life would it be dictated by a majoritarian democracy or would it be a grass roots democracy federation within city and country side communities.


androidism isn't so much about robots. It is about hard-wiring humans; connecting brains for the internet, being able to plug into your system and see if any health problems are arising, fixing what can be fixed by the body just by pressing a button. It's about us not needing space suits to decompress. It's about being able to make complex calculations in seconds, with no tools other than one's brain.
Bigger, stronger, smarter, faster; we will become machines, or machines will overtake us. :thumbup1:

I can't see how socialism can ever be practically implemented, unless mankind is transformed into cybernetic dragons.

[Psy]

I can't see how socialism can ever be practically implemented, unless mankind is transformed into cybernetic dragons.
Why not? Okay we won't be matching the productivity of fictional communist robot societies but that is not to say humans can't work together for a common economic plan where the products of society are shared equally.