Full Belly Thesis and "Identity Politics"

[Die Neue Zeit]

I have written a lot about narrow economism, broad economism, participatory democracy, workers' political power, and so on, but I also wrote this in my Commonwealth blog:


The minimum program for the emergence of this demarchic “Commonwealth” surpasses broad economism by aiming for multiple struggles:

1) A two-fold political struggle of a minimum-maximum character, with politico-ideological independence for the working class as the immediate aim, and with the demarchic commonwealth fully replacing the repressive instruments for the rule of minority classes – the state – as the aim later on;
2) Economic struggles of a minimum-maximum character, with economic struggles promoting politico-ideological independence for the working class as an immediate aim, and with economic struggles directly for social labour later on – since the struggle for this “socialism” is indeed economic and not political; and
3) Peripheral sociocultural struggles of a minimum-maximum character around various issues, such as identity politics.

What case can be made for applying or rejecting the Full Belly Thesis when prioritizing between economic struggles and sociocultural struggles like so-called "identity politics"?

[Palingenisis]

I think a point that needs to be made about "identity politics" is that there are identity politics and identity politics....Working class women, blacks, etc face spefic problems due to their identity which can easily sidelined by an economistic approach to class struggle. In my mind therefore contarary to what some might say their idependent organizing and discussion of the spefic hassles and challenges that they face is not devisive essentially at all but part of the human self-empowerment that socialism is supposed to be about and often a necesscity.

However there is another type of identity politics which fetishes blacks, women, etc as all pure and demonizes ordinary working class males (however basically decent they maybe)....Indulges in weird "Feminist" rituals like sitting around in a circle and starring at your vagina in a mirror to connect or something with your "inner goddess" or some such nonsense...Often this type of "identity politics" is also drowning in the avant garde of the decomposition of capitalist idealolgy such as post-modernism and neo-paganism.

[counterblast]

Yeah identity politics are stupid and useless. The ruling class is responsible for all oppression that people face, everybody knows that.

"Remember the Klan? All of them were secretly rich investment bankers and CEOs!"
-Marx addressing the RCP National Conference, 2002

[Die Neue Zeit]

The picture I've gotten of the RCWP-RPC is that they're economically speaking authentic socialists, but with horrible social politics. At least one member who was banned a few months ago for rampant homophobia said that they don't consider homophobia to be a problem like 'you do in the west'.

So I guess they want a society with equal rights for 90% of the population, then. :rolleyes:

Given the liberalized and utter disaster here in the West that is Identity "Politics," I'd suggest the RCWP-RPC really tone down the homophobia, but when I said "moderate conservative" re. Stalin, I had this social compromise in mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_center_(politics)


Therefore, Lind argues, the American "radical" centrism of today is simply the adamant pursuit for a return to the once-mainstream political principle of New Deal economic progressivism coupled with a moderate cultural conservatism. This modest cultural conservatism would be exemplified on the political stage simply by the "radical centrist" politician's refusal to politicize or advocate socially-liberal issues like abortion or gay rights. However, the radical centrist politician might spurn any influence or pressure coming from the Religious Right and other socially conservative groups (i.e. pro-life advocates, school prayer advocates, etc.)

[I'd certainly refuse to advance bourgeois shit like gender equality in the corporate boardrooms.]


And in doing so you break class lines and solidarize with the men of the boardrooms. I'd like to expand that argument but this is probably best done in the discrimination forum.

Feel free to expand that argument here, taking into account the original post of this thread on the Full Belly Thesis.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think a point that needs to be made about "identity politics" is that there are identity politics and identity politics....Working class women, blacks, etc face spefic problems due to their identity which can easily sidelined by an economistic approach to class struggle.

Does "Matching the transnational mobility of labour with the establishment of a transnationally entrenched bill of workers’ political and economic rights, and with the realization of a globalized and upward equal standard of living for equal work, thus allowing real freedom of movement through instant legalization and open borders, and thereby precluding the extreme exploitation of immigrants" sound right to you as a starting point?

That cuts across the male-female divide and across racial tensions on the immigrant front, while emphasizing workers first and foremost.

[Crux]

Feel free to expand that argument here, taking into account the original post of this thread on the Full Belly Thesis.
Your argument presupposes a male norm. Of course I do not think the composition of board rooms should be the prime campaign, but it is interesting that only women get accused of breaking class lines on this issue, when a non-standpoint or anti-standpoint is in effect a support for status quo.
It is working class men solidarizing with the men of the boardroom in excluding women from seats of power. Not that a female CEO is somehow better than a male CEO. But it most certainly is an advantage for the male, rich establishment.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Your argument presupposes a male norm. Of course I do not think the composition of board rooms should be the prime campaign, but it is interesting that only women get accused of breaking class lines on this issue, when a non-standpoint or anti-standpoint is in effect a support for status quo.

Really? :confused:

Why would women only be accused of breaking class lines? Someone from my viewpoint would accuse males of breaking class lines if they advocated gender equality in the boardrooms, keeping in mind that most left activists at the moment are males. Such male activism for gender equality in the boardrooms would be solidarizing with the bourgeois women of the boardrooms.

A non-standpoint would be a "pox on all your houses" aimed at both men and women in the corporate boardrooms, just as the idea of securities market regulation reform is irrelevant for workers.

[Crux]

Really? :confused:

Why would women only be accused of breaking class lines? Someone from my viewpoint would accuse males of breaking class lines if they advocated gender equality in the boardrooms, keeping in mind that most left activists at the moment are males. Such male activism for gender equality in the boardrooms would be solidarizing with the bourgeois women of the boardrooms.

A non-standpoint would be a "pox on all your houses" aimed at both men and women in the corporate boardrooms, just as the idea of securities market regulation reform is irrelevant for workers.
Why would you be for gender discrimination in any instant? And man, most feminist activists are women. I don't believe in promoting female business leaders, because they are just as bad, however, let me give you an example: Would you be for or indifferent to a law that forbid a specific ethnic group to own companies or land? After all we support neither ownership of companies or land.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why would you be for gender discrimination in any instant?

Huh? :confused:

Am I confused here, or do you have a binary position on discrimination (for or against) without taking into account a no-opinion position?


And man, most feminist activists are women.

Many left activists tend to be feminism advocates as well, or are you referring to the pure "Identity Politics" type of feminist activists?


I don't believe in promoting female business leaders, because they are just as bad, however, let me give you an example: Would you be for or indifferent to a law that forbid a specific ethnic group to own companies or land? After all we support neither ownership of companies or land.

The bourgeois "Ricardian socialists" went as far as advocating public ownership and rental tenure over all land (I bold this because even I discovered this underrated half of the coin vs. various kinds of leasing arrangements only recently). I would simply say that such racist law should be replaced by the Ricardian proposal.

The question of companies is another subject, since there are working-class petty investments in gargantuan pension funds. Your point is valid on the question of companies.

[Dimentio]

I think a point that needs to be made about "identity politics" is that there are identity politics and identity politics....Working class women, blacks, etc face spefic problems due to their identity which can easily sidelined by an economistic approach to class struggle. In my mind therefore contarary to what some might say their idependent organizing and discussion of the spefic hassles and challenges that they face is not devisive essentially at all but part of the human self-empowerment that socialism is supposed to be about and often a necesscity.

However there is another type of identity politics which fetishes blacks, women, etc as all pure and demonizes ordinary working class males (however basically decent they maybe)....Indulges in weird "Feminist" rituals like sitting around in a circle and starring at your vagina in a mirror to connect or something with your "inner goddess" or some such nonsense...Often this type of "identity politics" is also drowning in the avant garde of the decomposition of capitalist idealolgy such as post-modernism and neo-paganism.

Also, that type of identity politics are generally related to post-structuralism and post-modernism, which are openly hostile to any unified worldview, instead seeking to fragment reality, which is literally making any attempt to transcend the economic order of the world moot.

[Queercommie Girl]

Depends on what is meant by "identity politics".

If someone is being discriminated on the basis of his/her identity, then to struggle against this kind of discrimination by explicitly affirming this identity is clearly positive and progressive in nature.

If someone is explicitly discriminating against me for being queer and trans, I'm certainly not going to shy away from and hide from confrontation by deliberately downplaying my "identity".

However, "identity politics" in the post-modern sense, or excessive focus on just one particular oppressed group, without any links to the wider socialist movement, is dubious at best.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Also, that type of identity politics are generally related to post-structuralism and post-modernism, which are openly hostile to any unified worldview, instead seeking to fragment reality, which is literally making any attempt to transcend the economic order of the world moot.

It's a good thing that post-modernism is rotting away as we speak. More momentum for works like Harvey's Enigma of Capital at the expense of the Empire trilogy would be a defining indicator.