Socialism nowhere to be seen in working class council estates?

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

I have noticed that socialism is now exclusively a ideology of the white, male, middle class.

You talk to lads and girls in the street or in the pub, and they have absoloutly no idea what socialism and capitalism actually are.

Most girls I know are busy reading glam rags and the lads are either smoking weed or going out grafing at night.

Where as, most middle class kids, those who went to university and had a brand new car at 17 and got a flat off daddy, know what communism is, they are the ones who populate the internet with their talk of socialism and che and talk to your average person like they were some unpleasant thing they just stood in.

Communism seems to be the gap year ideology of the middle class, rich *****es, that fails to even reach the ears of any actual working class kids.

Why is the left such a faliure?

My view is, most groups are not grassroots, they are top down, boring, theoretical jerk off excersizes in futility.

Anyone see it different?

[Magón]

I'm pretty sure that somewhere down the line on here, you're going to hear the phrase "Class Conscious" a lot.

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

The thing is, people will never be consciouss of class antaganisms, because there are no Activists in the communities where the workers are.

Communists could not even get the state scared when the police openly murdered Ian Tomlinson.

They cannot even seemingly be bothered to go into the estates and talk to people for a while.

In all my life, I have never seen any communists speaking, or giving out leaflets, or running community programs for kids with nothing to do.

Where are these so called revolutionaries?

Are they all male chauvanist middle class gap year arseholes like Che, who swan around different countries, writing about the worlers condition?

[IndependentCitizen]

Being 18 years old, I struggle to engage in conversation about politics my age. It's so hard to promote class consciousness at this age.

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

I am seventeen honey, so I know what you mean.

[IndependentCitizen]

I am seventeen honey, so I know what you mean.

Atleast I'm not the only one in oh age group in this god forsaken country that's not you cliche teenager who cares more about how their hair looks than the people's welfare.

[Delenda Carthago]

half of the posts in here is about "why US ISNT?''. If you stoped crying over spilled gasoline and started thinking ways to create new formations in order to act,you would be ten times more coooool!

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

Unlike you lucky greek bastards, we have not had a teenager killed by the police, not had austerity measures, and do not have hot weather.

The heatalone could whip up a riot, over here it fucking rains 24/7 and people do not go to rallies, because its a residential area and there is nowhere to park

Seriously the British people are the most, petty and exenophobic people in the world.

When we get asked at the airport, our reasons for visiting, we just look at them and go

"imperialism,OK"

We also have blindly patriotic OAPs who go

"yeah, during the blitz a bomb came through the roof, ripped my leg off, blinded me right eye and burnt 90% of me body...Then, after the bombs stopped, something amazing happened, the queen mother came to visit the city, was the best moment of my life that there was"

[IndependentCitizen]

half of the posts in here is about "why US ISNT?''. If you stoped crying over spilled gasoline and started thinking ways to create new formations in order to act,you would be ten times more coooool!

Not as easy as that when the youh of today won't listen, and think politics are 'uncool'.

The UK is a breeding ground for the far right IMO. It's easier to blame the so called outsiders than consider real change socialism can offer.

[IndependentCitizen]

Unlike you lucky greek bastards, we have not had a teenager killed by the police, not had austerity measures, and do not have hot weather.

The heatalone could whip up a riot, over here it fucking rains 24/7 and people do not go to rallies, because its a residential area and there is nowhere to park

Seriously the British people are the most, petty and exenophobic people in the world.

When we get asked at the airport, our reasons for visiting, we just look at them and go

"imperialism,OK"

Uh what? We are having austerity measures right now... Tory scum are slashing everything and raising tax everywhere

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

not in the same ball park as Greece

[Magón]

Maybe you guys should start working on some Class Conscious flyers or posters to put around town? (See, I've already started in more with Class Consciousness.)

[IndependentCitizen]

Maybe you guys should start working on some Class Conscious flyers or posters to put around town? (See, I've already started in more with Class Consciousness.)

Tried this a while ago. I live in Brighton, which is a student city. I'll get exactly what Elizabeth described as the problem.

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

I have been given negative rep already, jesus, those people who call the left petty are so wrong........

Also, ive heard of people being bullied for being "political"

seriously, people hate all politics, and all politicians, and if you say you do too,but want a different system they just tell you how they hate pakis or hate faggots, or hate the polish for taking their dads job

When you explain that capitalism takes our jobs, and forces us to work for a wage, and how racism and homophbia are wrong, they just go, well i dont mind lesbos, but faggots are ****s

seriously, i aint makiing this shit up for fun.

[Crimson Commissar]

We british are probably some of the most fucking lazy people there are when it comes to revolutions. Whenever there's a problem, people say "Oh, it's that bloody conservative/labour party", but instead of realising they're both shit they just switch to the other party instead, thinking that having a new party in control will automatically solve all our problems. Plus there's the whole nationalism issue. If you oppose the monarchy you're automatically considered to be a "britain-hating twat" and get death threats from the personality cultists who treat the queen as if she's some kind of goddess. Sigh.... I just hope one day we can actually fucking abandon this bullshit and fix what's wrong with our society.

[IndependentCitizen]

To be honest, to ignite a massive movement in the UK I think we should use the middle class fuckwits to our advantage. If we can use them to boost numbers, and help promote socialism amongst the real working class, we will then be able to pick up the workers who want change for them to promote It amongst each other.

Then seize our means of production then bam, goodnight capitalism.

[IndependentCitizen]

I have been given negative rep already, jesus, those people who call the left petty are so wrong........

Also, ive heard of people being bullied for being "political"

seriously, people hate all politics, and all politicians, and if you say you do too,but want a different system they just tell you how they hate pakis or hate faggots, or hate the polish for taking their dads job

When you explain that capitalism takes our jobs, and forces us to work for a wage, and how racism and homophbia are wrong, they just go, well i dont mind lesbos, but faggots are ****s

seriously, i aint makiing this shit up for fun. just ignore the virtual rep system. I already respect you for being a radical feminist. Need more women like yourself who obviously have the heart for change and wanting a better life for people.

[IndependentCitizen]

We british are probably some of the most fucking lazy people there are when it comes to revolutions. Whenever there's a problem, people say "Oh, it's that bloody conservative/labour party", but instead of realising they're both shit they just switch to the other party instead, thinking that having a new party in control will automatically solve all our problems. Plus there's the whole nationalism issue. If you oppose the monarchy you're automatically considered to be a "britain-hating twat" and get death threats from the personality cultists who treat the queen as if she's some kind of goddess. Sigh.... I just hope one day we can actually fucking abandon this bullshit and fix what's wrong with our society.


Quoted for truth, I bloody hate it when people say they support the liberal democrats because labour and the Tories "suck". Just shows they show no attention and follow what ever is spoon fed to them.

[Wanted Man]

Yeah. In Britain, but also in the Netherlands and several other European countries, the ties between communists and workers has basically been severed. Before 1991, the old CPs had already strongly weakened those ties as they sought electoral success, student recruitment and eschewing class struggle in favour of identity politics (not that there's anything wrong with social struggles like feminism; but the CPs divorced them from class struggle); but when these parties took the logical next step of disbanding themselves, the shit really hit the fan.

One big challenge in this day and age is how you're going to build your base again. It just won't do for all the student radicals to descend upon working-class estates with flyers and papers like Jehovah's witnesses, looking for "converts". That's a good way of getting a lot of laughs. It's back to the basics, really.

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

Violent movements in Britain are not possible at the moment, so social services by socialists and innitiatives like after school football cluba and boxing clubs etc to get the you doing something productive, that is ran by socialists.

Have socialist volunteers go and cook and visit the lonely eldery people on the estate, have volunteers run programs to find the homeless places to stay, and to help addicts beat the shit their on.

Communities will never side with socialists if we just talk at them about socialism, we need to actually fight for them, for the small things, which make capitalism so shit, because, if we help a worker with a small thing, they can help us with the big thing.

[Adi Shankara]

We british are probably some of the most fucking lazy people there are when it comes to revolutions. Whenever there's a problem, people say "Oh, it's that bloody conservative/labour party", but instead of realising they're both shit they just switch to the other party instead, thinking that having a new party in control will automatically solve all our problems. Plus there's the whole nationalism issue. If you oppose the monarchy you're automatically considered to be a "britain-hating twat" and get death threats from the personality cultists who treat the queen as if she's some kind of goddess. Sigh.... I just hope one day we can actually fucking abandon this bullshit and fix what's wrong with our society.

LMAO, it seems like not much has changed since the British left the Americas; Americans are the EXACT same way, except replace "Monarchy" with "big business" and "conservative/labour" with "democrat/republican".

[fa2991]

This "commies are all middle class white kids" seems false to me. From what I've heard, the CPUSA's heaviest recruiting is in poor black neighborhoods.

[IndependentCitizen]

Violent movements in Britain are not possible at the moment, so social services by socialists and innitiatives like after school football cluba and boxing clubs etc to get the you doing something productive, that is ran by socialists.

Have socialist volunteers go and cook and visit the lonely eldery people on the estate, have volunteers run programs to find the homeless places to stay, and to help addicts beat the shit their on.

Communities will never side with socialists if we just talk at them about socialism, we need to actually fight for them, for the small things, which make capitalism so shit, because, if we help a worker with a small thing, they can help us with the big thing.

I disagree with the violent movements. The English defence league appears to be catching fish with it's hideous version of nationalism, a nationalism a bit more dangerous than typical White nationalism. They can turn ethnic minorities in loyalist foot soldiers for them to get a stronger grip on the far right and spread their islamophobic bullshit through ordinary people.

They'll move on to another group, and will still have a large backing. All of their protests are violent, and that's attracting more interest. When they've got those who are looking for a ruck in, they can then poison them and turn them into a new breed of nationalist.

A violent movement against the EDL is necessary, and will attract many anti fascist people whom we can promote class consciousness amongst.

[IndependentCitizen]

This "commies are all middle class white kids" seems false to me. From what I've heard, the CPUSA's heaviest recruiting is in poor black neighborhoods.

I think Elizabeth is referring to British students.

[Rousedruminations]

socialism in loving, fraternal and unified families ! ?

[Elizabeth Jones 18]

I was talking about in Britain, but, to be honest, that seems unlikely, as you hardly ever EVER see black workers at American events.

A girl from America was complaining about racism and sexism in the left in the USA.

she said

"Us women are looked at as being "*****es" for asking men to not refer to people as ****s, or we are called man haters if we point out that a socialist should not be telling people how they fuck their girlfriend and talking about her as if she was his private property

When we do get some females, its as if they think, thats enough, lets steer clear of the Negro communities, we are sick of having to babysit those ghetto babies.

And the guys that do believe in equality and are not homophobic, or transphobic, or sexist, are called pussies, and ostracised by the left community"

(from Angie off wordpress)

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

I have noticed that socialism is now exclusively a ideology of the white, male, middle class...

I'll cut off the rest of your post from the above quote because I take this as the key premise for most of it.

Socialism may resemble an "exclusive ideology of the white male middle-class" in your area, but it's not of the leftist situation in general. There are plenty of non-whites and women in the movement. The developing world's struggle aside, your claim is inapplicable to the U.S. (I live in New York). The perception that there are more men than women in the movement is probably true, but that's a product of our culture, in which men generally tend to be more involved in political causes across the entire spectrum. (Doing something about that fact is the prerogative of the left.)

As far as your view that communism is "the gap year ideology of the middle class, rich *****es, that fails to even reach the ears of any actual working class kids," in that, I think, there is a kind of resemblance of the situation in the real world. Not only is it simpler for the educated intellectuals to grasp the subtleties of Marxist theory, it's easier for the intellectuals to naturally grasp the full significance of things like globalization and the ongoing subjugation of the impoverished Third World nations. (The elitist caste also tends to be more politically active across the entire spectrum.)

Since Marxism is an ideology of the disaffected, it tends to attract young, privileged college students who are pissed off with the existing state of things, but are far too disconnected from it in daily life. These are people intimately familiar with the issues raised by such writers as Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn, but are not yet assimilated to the system, or fully recast as the privileged "young professionals" of the Western corporate world. (Gap ideology? Yes. This is probably where most of the high turnover rate actually comes from.)

The solution to that should obviously be a better sort of activism, with more of a focus on highlighting issues central to the immediate lives of the working class and the various oppressed groups who fall through the cracks of the system. Too many on the left in the Western world still wait for some kind of glimmer of hope to come from the Third World, and simply dismiss the Western worker as a hopeless case. (Why bother when you can much more easily draw in a decent bunch of disaffected students from the universities? Meanwhile, we can all sip our lattes and discuss what our theoretical perfection is about or will be like.)

The pitfalls of this approach are salient, so avoiding them should be a necessary priority. Ways of broadening the appeal of the left, such as reaching out more to "reactionary" workers with the ultimate intent of displacing their reactionary ideology, rather than rejecting anything having to do with the ideologically impure, will also have to be found if the left really intends to become popular. Merely crossing our fingers and hoping that these workers will come over to our side when the stock market crashes harder than ever is another futile strategy.

And there is a reason to be optimistic, since the movement is growing. At least some tangible gains -- in the direction of a reconnection with the working class -- however slow, are actually being made as more opportunities emerge. There is a growing sense of the class struggle in Europe; the IWW in America has been pretty active for a while, and the ground lost by the thinly-veiled reformism of the CPUSA is being taken back by newer communist organizations (like the recently-formed Party for Socialism and Liberation), and there have been vast gains in the Third World -- Nepal and South America especially.

Just like the final triumph of the free market alongside a world of capitalist prosperity for all, the death of Marxism has been falsely prophesied since the 1800s. Britain may indeed need some more action particularly bad, but we're still around, and very much alive.

[Blackscare]

You have to realize that humanity spends the majority of it's time in periods of ignorance and stagnation (comparatively) with occaisional periods of political enlightenment. Leftists would call this a revolutionary period. When you're not in a revolutionary period Leftist ideology tends to go into hibernation, and the only people left carrying the torch are the ideologoues.


So, take from that what you will. You seem angry but it's just sort of the inevitable result of things.

[Crimson Commissar]

You have to realize that humanity spends the majority of it's time in periods of ignorance and stagnation (comparatively) with occaisional periods of political enlightenment. Leftists would call this a revolutionary period. When you're not in a revolutionary period Leftist ideology tends to go into hibernation, and the only people left carrying the torch are the ideologoues.


So, take from that what you will. You seem angry but it's just sort of the inevitable result of things.
You're right in a way... But I see no signs of a leftist revolution happening here in Britain any time soon. People are definitely recognising that something is wrong with our society, but they don't know how to solve it. As I said before, there are those who just alternate between the three major parties. But then there's the right-wingers who blame all the problems of British society on immigrant workers instead of capitalism. Leftism in Britain is honestly pretty pathetic. If anyone is going to start a revolution here, it'll probably be a radical right-wing coup that transforms us into a white nationalist state or some bullshit like that.

[scarletghoul]

The OP is generally correct..

But this can be reversed. The objective conditions are already becoming ripe for a new working class mobilisation (tories have started cutting stuff, it will get worse); what we lack however is the subjective tools necessary. That is, a truly proletarian vanguard. Objectively this is a golden opportunity to rally people to the cause of socialist revolution; what we need is a party/organisation that will exist as one with the masses, will base its action around the needs and concerns of the masses, will gain their trust and enthusiasm, as well as educating them and raising consciousness.. There is a massive void of political allegiance among the people, and if we dont fill it either labour or the bnp will. Struggle will get more intense in the coming years; our job is to make sure it's a real class struggle and not a 'race struggle' or a labour-tory struggle. Theres masses of workers, unemployed, some lumpen, even some struggling petty-bourgeois who could easily join our ranks if we approached them correctly

In other words we need a party willing to use 'mass line' tactics and 'go down' among the people rather than confining itself to selling papers, preying on students and maybe tailing unions. It's certainly possible. We just need some people to get it started.

[this is an invasion]

Weird, I smoke weed and tag at night, and I'm communist as fuck.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yeah. In Britain, but also in the Netherlands and several other European countries, the ties between communists and workers has basically been severed. Before 1991, the old CPs had already strongly weakened those ties as they sought electoral success, student recruitment and eschewing class struggle in favour of identity politics (not that there's anything wrong with social struggles like feminism; but the CPs divorced them from class struggle); but when these parties took the logical next step of disbanding themselves, the shit really hit the fan.

One big challenge in this day and age is how you're going to build your base again. It just won't do for all the student radicals to descend upon working-class estates with flyers and papers like Jehovah's witnesses, looking for "converts". That's a good way of getting a lot of laughs. It's back to the basics, really.

"Back to the basics" requires mass parties and building such. "Vanguardism" except in the sense that the SPD was a vanguard party needs to be dropped.

[Palingenisis]

This "commies are all middle class white kids" seems false to me. From what I've heard, the CPUSA's heaviest recruiting is in poor black neighborhoods.

Im not sure this is true at all....On my Estate there are Workers' Party, Eirigi, the Irish Socialist Network, Socialist Party (the Irish branch of the CWI) and Provisional Sinn Fein (who arent really left but are far to the left of the Labour Party and have Leftists in them) members and supporters (but yeah the left is a minority because most people feel powerless to change anything)....The middle class "leftists" I have come across here tend to be anarchist poseurs or trendy post-modern types more interested in "rebellion" or "cool" ideas...The whole idea of the left being dominated by middle class trendies and that ordinary decent working folk are all capitalist loving is crap.

[Palingenisis]

not that there's anything wrong with social struggles like feminism; but the CPs divorced them from class struggle.

There is a huge difference between working class women's issues and working class women organizing themselves independently around those issues and "Feminism" which can in real life be a real threat working class women.

[AK]

I have noticed that socialism is now exclusively a ideology of the white, male, middle class.
Socialism is racist, patriarchal and petit-bourgeois? Now I know the truth!


You talk to lads and girls in the street or in the pub, and they have absoloutly no idea what socialism and capitalism actually are.
Talk to males and you get the same response.


Where as, most middle class kids, those who went to university and had a brand new car at 17 and got a flat off daddy, know what communism is, they are the ones who populate the internet with their talk of socialism and che and talk to your average person like they were some unpleasant thing they just stood in.
Whilst they are far from being a boon to the movement, denouncing them as middle class is absolutely stupid and requires an in-depth class analysis based primarily on economic relations.


Communism seems to be the gap year ideology of the middle class, rich *****es, that fails to even reach the ears of any actual working class kids.
See above.


Why is the left such a faliure?
Over a century of capitalist propaganda, the failure of previous revolutions to abolish class society and that our ideas and symbols have been commercialised and commodified.


My view is, most groups are not grassroots, they are top down, boring, theoretical jerk off excersizes in futility.
You said it.

[AK]

Unlike you lucky greek bastards, we have not had a teenager killed by the police, not had austerity measures
Now I, too, am jealous of the Greek working class. Cops ought to kill more kids.

[AK]

There is a huge difference between working class women's issues and working class women organizing themselves independently around those issues and "Feminism" which can in real life be a real threat working class women.
You'd better explain yourself quickly, because atm the notion that feminism is harmful to working class women sounds ridiculous.

[Volcanicity]

We british are probably some of the most fucking lazy people there are when it comes to revolutions. Whenever there's a problem, people say "Oh, it's that bloody conservative/labour party", but instead of realising they're both shit they just switch to the other party instead, thinking that having a new party in control will automatically solve all our problems. Plus there's the whole nationalism issue. If you oppose the monarchy you're automatically considered to be a "britain-hating twat" and get death threats from the personality cultists who treat the queen as if she's some kind of goddess. Sigh.... I just hope one day we can actually fucking abandon this bullshit and fix what's wrong with our society.
This is right.The majority of people here just see the three main political parties and think thats it.Ive known a lot people who see socialism as too hard to understand and so give up,thats why far-right groups get a lot of support because their ideology is so simple to understand,and there is no real thought involved.Most people where I live are just interested in going out and getting pissed, rather than trying to change their lives and communites for the better.

[Quail]

You'd better explain yourself quickly, because atm the notion that feminism is harmful to working class women sounds ridiculous.

It depends on the kind of feminism; I think s/he was referring to "feminism" that operates within the capitalist system.

I also think that working class people, who probably haven't been to university, don't have as much opportunity to get exposed to left-wing views. Most universities are full of activists with diverse opinions. On the other hand, the media is full of right-wing attitudes, so if you work all day at a demeaning job, get home and watch the television, you're more likely to be exposed to right-wing thought.

[AK]

It depends on the kind of feminism; I think s/he was referring to "feminism" that operates within the capitalist system.
It's the only kind.

[hatzel]

Through sheer coincidence, I was just reading a thread on Libcom, admittedly about veganism and the like, which had a quote from George Orwell which might be somehow useful to us in this conversation. Sure, Orwell was a pretty long time ago, but that doesn't mean that the cycle hasn't just come round to the same thing all over again. Check it out:


Still more unfortunately, [the socialist movement] includes — so much so that to an outsider it even appears to be composed of — the kind of people I have been discussing; the foaming denouncers of the bourgeoisie, and the more-water-in-your-beer reformers of whom Shaw is the prototype, and the astute young social-literary climbers who are Communists now, as they will be Fascists five years hence, because it is all the go, and all that dreary tribe of high-minded' women and sandal-wearers and bearded fruit-juice drinkers who come nocking towards the smell of 'progress' like bluebottles to a dead cat. The ordinary decent person, who is in sympathy with the essential aims of Socialism, is given the impression that there is no room for his kind in any Socialist party that means business.

What about that? Maybe the same privileged middle class white man who's running around preaching about veganism, because he's never known personal discrimination, has effectively hijacked the whole movement. As have those Orwell mentions, the 'fashionistas', merely following whichever political ideology is more fashionable at the time. And, to be honest, it's more likely to be the middle classes who follow fashions, but if Socialism isn't in fashion at the moment? Nothing can be done. Particularly not if these middle class types have (unintentionally?) made Socialism appear totally impenetrable to the working classes. Not something for them at all. Those who actually suffer from their class status, being poor and so on, are hardly going to feel much to associate with, a bunch of well-off, privileged, never had an unfulfilled desire in their life types...true socialists, those holding the beliefs, will always remain invisible to 'organised' socialism, as long as socialism is dominated by the very same people the working class considers their effective class superiors, too out of touch with reality, living instead in some little dreamworld, and therefore never addressing the actual needs of the working class they claim to be acting in the best interests of...

[Palingenisis]

It depends on the kind of feminism; I think s/he was referring to "feminism" that operates within the capitalist system.

I also think that working class people, who probably haven't been to university, don't have as much opportunity to get exposed to left-wing views. Most universities are full of activists with diverse opinions. On the other hand, the media is full of right-wing attitudes, so if you work all day at a demeaning job, get home and watch the television, you're more likely to be exposed to right-wing thought.

I made it clear in my post that working class women do face problemns not just because of their class but because of their gender...Pay inequality (which still exists), domestic violence, rape, being sidelined in various activities by male egos, etc, etc....And its only right that we should organize in our own groups to discuss and overcome these problemns. The largest women's organization in India is connected with and supportive of the Communist insurgency there.

What "she" meant by "Feminism" on other hand is a middle class idealolgy based around universities whos partisans in my (and other peoples' aswell) experiance are more often than not extremely patronizing to actually working class women and sprouts post-modern twaddle that has little or no revealance to the lives of women and girls living on council estates, working as sectataries or factory hands, etc. Even worse it often goes hand in hand with neo-paganism. Often "Feminists" will call working class girls traitors for saying things that suggest that they have more in common with males from similar backgrounds than they do with middle class perpetual students and acedemics (the social base of "Feminism").

Your point about working class who havent been to university and so "enlightened" by middle class lefties being generally right wing is also crap. Not to mention condescending.

[Palingenisis]

I also think that working class people, who probably haven't been to university, don't have as much opportunity to get exposed to left-wing views. Most universities are full of activists with diverse opinions. On the other hand, the media is full of right-wing attitudes, so if you work all day at a demeaning job, get home and watch the television, you're more likely to be exposed to right-wing thought.

Actually this pure utopian socialism....Socialism as a nice moral idea that people just have to persuaded how nice it is and hey presto...

The demand for Communism arises out of the real life experiances of working class women, men and childern both in their neighbourhoods and workplaces....It is in those experiances that the REAL Communist movement arises.

[nuisance]

Not as easy as that when the youh of today won't listen, and think politics are 'uncool'.
Politics are uncool because they're fuckin' boring.

[pdcrofts]

...
You talk to lads and girls in the street or in the pub, and they have absoloutly no idea what socialism and capitalism actually are.

Most girls I know are busy reading glam rags... <SNIP>




Good thread Elizabeth. If they're only reading trashy magazines then we need to get socialist messages into those publications. Write to their letters page on some pretext and slip in some socialist messages.

There are ways to get the message across. Young people still watch films and listen to music. So you should become a screenplay writer, a film maker or a song writer - teach about socialism through those media. Start a band or write a novel :)

http://www.pdcrofts.co.uk

[Quail]

Your point about working class who havent been to university and so "enlightened" by middle class lefties being generally right wing is also crap. Not to mention condescending.


Actually this pure utopian socialism....Socialism as a nice moral idea that people just have to persuaded how nice it is and hey presto...

The demand for Communism arises out of the real life experiances of working class women, men and childern both in their neighbourhoods and workplaces....It is in those experiances that the REAL Communist movement arises.

That isn't really what I meant. I might not have explained myself properly. I don't think that socialism arises by priveliged left-wing students magically enlightening people. People have to become conscious themselves and fight for themselves. In the area where I grew up, there are a lot of disillusioned, working-class young people who support the BNP and far right politics because they believe that's the only alternative to the mainstream. They know very little about socialism because they've never been exposed to those ides.

[Palingenisis]

That isn't really what I meant. I might not have explained myself properly. I don't think that socialism arises by priveliged left-wing students magically enlightening people. People have to become conscious themselves and fight for themselves. In the area where I grew up, there are a lot of disillusioned, working-class young people who support the BNP and far right politics because they believe that's the only alternative to the mainstream. They know very little about socialism because they've never been exposed to those ides.

You belong to a stupid organization that labelled farm hands, the unemployed and factory girls anti-working class bastards in my country for meeting the British state and the death squads it had armed blow for blow....The BNP is pretty close when looked at seriously to what "Old Labour" was in reality and in the reactionary stakes the Anarchist Federation isnt far behind. Globally however the demand for Communism arises from the real conditions people find themselves forced into....I long for the day when the labour aristocrats of England will leave organizations like the Anarchist Federation, the BNP and the Labour Party and so realise their true interests lie with the world's oppressed and exploited majiority.

[bricolage]

You belong to a stupid organization
The BNP is pretty close when looked at seriously to what "Old Labour" was in reality and in the reactionary stakes the Anarchist Federation isnt far behind.

Genius :rolleyes:

Although....


I long for the day when the labour aristocrats of England will leave organizations like the Anarchist Federation, the BNP and the Labour Party and so realise their true interests lie with the world's oppressed and exploited majiority.

If they are 'labour aristocrats' surely their interests do not lie with 'the world's oppressed and exploited majority'. Unless of course the whole labour aristocracy thing is a sham, surely not ay?

[Die Neue Zeit]

What about that? Maybe the same privileged middle class white man who's running around preaching about veganism, because he's never known personal discrimination, has effectively hijacked the whole movement. As have those Orwell mentions, the 'fashionistas', merely following whichever political ideology is more fashionable at the time. And, to be honest, it's more likely to be the middle classes who follow fashions, but if Socialism isn't in fashion at the moment? Nothing can be done. Particularly not if these middle class types have (unintentionally?) made Socialism appear totally impenetrable to the working classes. Not something for them at all. Those who actually suffer from their class status, being poor and so on, are hardly going to feel much to associate with, a bunch of well-off, privileged, never had an unfulfilled desire in their life types...true socialists, those holding the beliefs, will always remain invisible to 'organised' socialism, as long as socialism is dominated by the very same people the working class considers their effective class superiors, too out of touch with reality, living instead in some little dreamworld, and therefore never addressing the actual needs of the working class they claim to be acting in the best interests of...

Well said, but there has been a tradition from Marx's International Workingmen's Association to the Bebel's pre-war SPD to Hekmat's Worker-Communism (in Iran) about restricting membership to those with working-class backgrounds.

[AK]

The BNP is pretty close when looked at seriously to what "Old Labour" was in reality and in the reactionary stakes the Anarchist Federation isnt far behind.
AFed is reactionary? Oh wow. Just wow.


Globally however the demand for Communism arises from the real conditions people find themselves forced into....
Many people are already in these conditions, but they have yet to act on them.


I long for the day when the labour aristocrats of England will leave organizations like the Anarchist Federation, the BNP and the Labour Party and so realise their true interests lie with the world's oppressed and exploited majiority.
"Labour aristocrats" aren't oppressed and exploited? They don't own means of production or capital. the capitalist extracts surplus value from them and they have no more say in the running of society than the other workers you speak of, so how are they even aristocrats at all?