Minister: 'Burn A Quran Day' To Go As Planned On September 11

[Klaatu]

Minister: 'Burn A Quran Day' To Go As Planned On September 11

MITCH STACY | 09/ 7/10 09:03 PM | AP

GAINESVILLE, Fla. — The government turned up the pressure Tuesday on the head of a small Florida church who plans to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11, warning him that doing so could endanger U.S. troops and Americans everywhere.

But the Rev. Terry Jones insisted he would go ahead with his plans, despite criticism from the top U.S. general in Afghanistan, the White House and the State Department, as well as a host of religious leaders.

Jones, who is known for posting signs proclaiming that Islam is the devil's religion, says the Constitution gives him the right to publicly set fire to the book that Muslims consider the word of God.

Gen. David Petraeus warned Tuesday in an e-mail to The Associated Press that "images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan – and around the world – to inflame public opinion and incite violence." It was a rare example of a military commander taking a position on a domestic political matter.

Jones responded that he is also concerned but is "wondering, 'When do we stop?'" He refused to cancel the protest set for Saturday at his Dove World Outreach Center, a church that espouses an anti-Islam philosophy.

"How much do we back down? How many times do we back down?" Jones told the AP. "Instead of us backing down, maybe it's to time to stand up. Maybe it's time to send a message to radical Islam that we will not tolerate their behavior."

Still, Jones said he will pray about his decision.

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said the administration hoped Americans would stand up and condemn the church's plan.

"We think that these are provocative acts," Crowley said. "We would like to see more Americans stand up and say that this is inconsistent with our American values; in fact, these actions themselves are un-American."

Meeting Tuesday with religious leaders to discuss recent attacks on Muslims and mosques around the U.S., Attorney General Eric Holder called the planned burning both idiotic and dangerous, according to a Justice Department official. The official requested anonymity because the meeting was private.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton added her disapproval at a dinner Tuesday evening in observance of Iftar, the breaking of the daily fast during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

"I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths," Clinton said.

At the White House, spokesman Robert Gibbs echoed the concerns raised by Petraeus. "Any type of activity like that that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration," Gibbs told reporters.

Jones said he has received more than 100 death threats and has started wearing a .40-caliber pistol strapped to his hip.

The 58-year-old minister said the death threats started not long after he proclaimed in July that he would stage "International Burn-a-Quran Day." Supporters have been mailing copies of the Islamic holy text to his church to be incinerated in a bonfire.

Jones, who has about 50 followers, gained some local notoriety last year when he posted signs in front of his small church declaring "Islam is of the Devil." But his Quran-burning scheme attracted wider attention. It drew rebukes from Muslim nations and an avalanche of media interview requests just as an emotional debate was taking shape over the proposed Islamic center near the ground zero site of the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York.

The Quran, according to Jones, is "evil" because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.

"It's hard for people to believe, but we actually feel this is a message that we have been called to bring forth," he said last week. "And because of that, we do not feel like we can back down."

Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of God and insist it be treated with the utmost respect, along with any printed material containing its verses or the name of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad. Any intentional damage or show of disrespect to the Quran is deeply offensive.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. The church follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

At first glance, the church looks like a warehouse rather than a place of worship. A stone facade and a large lighted cross adorn the front of the beige steel building, which stands on 20 acres in Gainesville's leafy northern suburbs. Jones and his wife, Sylvia, live on the property and also use part of it to store furniture that they sell on eBay.

A broad coalition of religious leaders from evangelical, Roman Catholic, Jewish and Muslim organizations met in Washington on Tuesday and condemned the plan to burn the Quran as a violation of American values.

"This is not the America that we all have grown to love and care about," said Rabbi Steve Gutow of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs. "We have to stand up for our Muslim brothers and sisters and say, "This is not OK.'"

FBI agents have visited with Jones to discuss concern for his safety. Multiple Facebook pages with thousands of members have popped up hailing him as a hero or blasting him as a dangerous pariah.

The world's leading Sunni Muslim institution of learning, Al-Azhar University in Egypt, accused the church of stirring up hate and discrimination, and called on other American churches speak out against it.

Last month, Indonesian Muslims demonstrated outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, threatening violence if Jones goes through with it.

In this progressive Florida city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus, the lanky preacher with the bushy white mustache is mostly seen as a fringe character who doesn't deserve special attention.

At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in Gainesville have mobilized to plan inclusive events – some will read from the Quran at their own weekend services – to counter what Jones is doing. A student group is organizing a protest across the street from the church on Sept. 11.

Gainesville's new mayor, Craig Lowe, who during his campaign became the target of a Jones-led protest because he is openly gay, has declared Sept. 11 Interfaith Solidarity Day in the city.

Jones dismisses the response of the other churches as "cowardly." He said even if they think burning Qurans is extreme, Christian ministers should be standing with him in denouncing the principles of Islam.

All the attention has caused other problems for Jones, too. He believes it's the reason his mortgage lender has demanded full payment of the $140,000 still owed on the church property. He's seeking donations to cover it, but recently listed the property for sale with plans to eventually move the church away from Gainesville.

The fire department has denied Jones a required burn permit for Sept. 11, but he said lawyers have told him his right to burn Qurans is protected by the First Amendment, with or without the city's permission.

The same would hold true, he said, if Muslims wanted to burn Bibles in the front yard of a mosque.

"Of course, I would not like it," Jones said. But "I definitely would not threaten to kill them, as we have been threatened."source
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/07/burn-a-quran-day-to-go-as_n_707823.html

[Klaatu]

"The fire department has denied Jones a required burn permit for Sept. 11, but he said lawyers have told him his right to burn Qurans is protected by the First Amendment, with or without the city's permission."HAHAHA. Not quite. I think Jones needs some new lawyers. There are limits on the 1st Amendment.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Terry Jones(the priest) is a bastard on 2 counts

1. needlessly insulting nearly a billion people who are quite oppressed
2. ruining Terry Jones's(from Monty Python) name.


you know, this guy:
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/701/701458/monty-pythons-flying-circus-terry-jones-personal-best-20060412031848950-000.jpg

Pastor Fuckwit Jones needs to just not be.

[Sir Comradical]

As Salman Rushdie once said in response to his book being burned - "thank you for buying my book".

[Klaatu]

This burning event has captured my interest. I am going to buy a Koran. Not to burn it, of course. I want to read it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

This burning event has captured my interest. I am going to buy a Koran. Not to burn it, of course. I want to read it.
im not an islamo-fetishist leftist but thats a good way to do a personal protest against it.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This burning event has captured my interest. I am going to buy a Koran. Not to burn it, of course. I want to read it.

Would it be accurate to say that you now have a burning desire to read the Koran?

Seriously I've heard this preacher was kicked out of a US Army church in Germany for some sort of "financial irregularities". He's promoting this bigotry tax free.I have feeling many of these fundie preachers operate as dodges for complex sleazy business networks. The IRS could take a lot of these people down, if they wanted to.

The good news is that I've also heard 1/3 of Jone's congregation left his church over this.

[Crimson Commissar]

im not an islamo-fetishist leftist but thats a good way to do a personal protest against it.
Not really. You don't protest anti-muslim racism by supporting the religion of islam. You protest it by supporting the people themselves. We shouldn't be supporting islam in ANY way.

[Volcanicity]

Forget New York, build the Mosque in Gainsville.

[Palestine]

"Geez what are muslims pissed aboiut?" "They are terrorists and wanna kill us"
IT's BECAUSE OF THE SHIT YOU DO!

[The Vegan Marxist]

This burning event has captured my interest. I am going to buy a Koran. Not to burn it, of course. I want to read it.

Not religious at all, but even as an atheist, the Quran isn't that bad of a book.

[Sam_b]

You don't protest anti-muslim racism by supporting the religion of islam

How is reading the Quran "supporting Islam"?

[bricolage]

I've heard the Quran doesn't really hold up in English translations, in Arabic though it is meant to be beautiful.

[Dimentio]

No matter what happens, he will win.

If the authorities stop him, he will become a martyr for the freedom of expression.

If they don't do it, there will be Anti-American riots in several muslim countries, and that would further militarise his own adherents.

The best thing that could be done is for the media to treat him like Gene Ray, that means ignore him. These are pseudo-news with zero importance for human life (if no one was to report it). If I burned a Quran in my backyard and put it out on youtube, maybe 100 people would watch it.

Couldn't the media focus on something more important, like the flood in Pakistan?

[danyboy27]

in b4 sankara accuse atheist to praise this stupid event.

On a more serious note, i think this event will ridicule the christian and muslim extremists even more.

[BostonCharlie]

Goodness knows that the book-burning geebus juicer is full of it but unless you're going to work with Muslims in some way, wouldn't your time be better spent with the Marxist classics than with the Quran?

[ed miliband]

Goodness knows that the book-burning geebus juicer is full of it but unless you're going to work with Muslims in some way, wouldn't your time be better spent with the Marxist classics than with the Quran?

The Koran, like many other religious texts, can be enjoyed for its literary qualities alone.

[Crimson Commissar]

The Koran, like many other religious texts, can be enjoyed for its literary qualities alone.
It's hard to enjoy religious books when all they're telling you is "SUBMIT TO THE WILL OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD OR DIE"

[ed miliband]

It's hard to enjoy religious books when all they're telling you is "SUBMIT TO THE WILL OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD OR DIE"

Um, that's quite a mischaracterisation there.

[RedStarOverChina]

Um, that's quite a mischaracterisation there.
Is it?


2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

[ed miliband]

Read what Crimson Commissar says again. To suggest that "all they're telling you is "SUBMIT TO THE WILL OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD OR DIE"" really isn't true, and simply taking an isolated quote to attempt to back up this point is exactly what people who say all Muslims are terrorists do. I can find another quote that will give you a completely different point of view, but that would be quite pointless.

[Wanted Man]

If they don't do it, there will be Anti-American riots in several muslim countries, and that would further militarise his own adherents.

As usual, these will probably be isolated to a few people and strictly for the cameras. WHY DO THEY HATE US???

[Dimentio]

This shouldn't be made into an Islam vs Christianity debate. It is silly.

As for the Burn Quran event, if that guy wants to burn Qurans, simply don't put it into a large media empires. If his own congregation would advert it on the web, it wouldn't have become a world-wide news story.

I hate pseudo-news.

[RedStarOverChina]

Read what Crimson Commissar says again. To suggest that "all they're telling you is "SUBMIT TO THE WILL OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD OR DIE"" really isn't true, and simply taking an isolated quote to attempt to back up this point is exactly what people who say all Muslims are terrorists do. I can find another quote that will give you a completely different point of view, but that would be quite pointless.

That's not an isolated quote. I read the Quran. All of it. It's a central theme in both Quran as well as the New Testament that if you disbelieve you WILL suffer in Hell. The Quran hammers down this idea even more often.

[Crimson Commissar]

That's not an isolated quote. I read the Quran. All of it. It's a central theme in both Quran as well as the New Testament that if you disbelieve you WILL suffer in Hell. The Quran hammers down this idea even more often.
Indeed. It really does annoy me when people say that atheists are the disrespectful ones, and yet religious people can get away with just casually wishing eternal torment on everyone who disagrees with them.

[Dimentio]

Indeed. It really does annoy me when people say that atheists are the disrespectful ones, and yet religious people can get away with just casually wishing eternal torment on everyone who disagrees with them.

Because that religion should be "respected" because of how many people are following.

As for this provocation, I am in general thinking its a stupid thing to burn Bibles and Qurans, they are important parts of human history. Only narcissistic tyrants and real stupid fucks are burning books (no matter what book it is). I am also for the right of people to burn books, including the Quran.

What I am against is that media is choosing to highlight this story. Exactly what is news worthy about this, more than that the Muslim Rage Boy will make a new show?

The funny thing with American fundies is that they somehow remind a little bit of the Taleban. Weapons, beards and crazy conspiration theories, as well as a hatred against everything progressive.

[danyboy27]

Because that religion should be "respected" because of how many people are following.

As for this provocation, I am in general thinking its a stupid thing to burn Bibles and Qurans, they are important parts of human history. Only narcissistic tyrants and real stupid fucks are burning books (no matter what book it is). I am also for the right of people to burn books, including the Quran.

What I am against is that media is choosing to highlight this story. Exactly what is news worthy about this, more than that the Muslim Rage Boy will make a new show?

The funny thing with American fundies is that they somehow remind a little bit of the Taleban. Weapons, beards and crazy conspiration theories, as well as a hatred against everything progressive.
and that why its good this news is widespread and published, its make the line between christian and muslim fundies even more blurry, and unite atheist and religious moderate against those nuts.

[Crimson Commissar]

and that why its good this news is widespread and published, its make the line between christian and muslim fundies even more blurry, and unite atheist and religious moderate against those nuts.
There's no such thing as a religious moderate, to be honest. You can make your views a bit more private than the fundies do, but in the end any person who is actually seriously religious and doesn't just follow it because their parents do still believes that all humanity should bow down to god and obey him no matter what.

[IndependentCitizen]

I wonder if the EDL will be planning their burn the quran day.

[Tatarin]

It's a pretty neat trick: burn the Quran and watch people get mad, then maybe you liberals will see why "our troops" have to be there in Middle East! Without the USSR, well, you just have to come up with a new enemy. And what better enemy than a formless, changing (for better or worse) both culturally and politically, im-and-personal thing is there than religion? An ideology can be wrong or have holes, belief can not.

If there was one thing Big Dick had it right with, is when he said that "this war will probably last for a hundred years".

[Klaatu]

I am waiting to see what the town fire marshal will do. I'll bet he has a fire truck at the scene, and as Jones lights the match, he will be doused with hundreds of gallons of high-pressure water. And his Korans will be too wet to burn. Jones can then cool off in jail.

Jones' lawyers are wrong. He cannot light an (illegal) fire for "religious protest."

The reason is that no one may light an unpermitted fire in that town. Therefore it is not discrimination to disallow Jones to burn one, since the law applies to everyone equally. There was a Supreme Court decision a few years ago, banning Native Americans from smoking peyote for religious reasons. The high court's rationale was that since everyone is prohibited from smoking the drug, thus the natives could not do so either, as they were NOT being singled out from other groups for their activity.

In short, Jones DOES NOT have a 1st amendment right to disobey the town open-burning code.

[Dimitri Molotov]

i was actually thinking about this today, and at first the sight of this bigot on the news burning the koran enraged me. but then i remembered, i am assuming most/some of us on here would approve of an american flag burning, right? like in protest or something? and then i figured that if that is okay, then i thought who cares they have a right to burn the koran, and people burn the bible and flag every day and none of us seem to give a crap. i say, as an atheist, we should just let christianity and islam duke it out by themselves and maybe if theyr concentrated on eachother, the left can get some stuff done without all their BS. :thumbup1:

also where do i go to change my pic? i am no longer a christian-communist.

[synthesis]

That's not an isolated quote. I read the Quran. All of it. It's a central theme in both Quran as well as the New Testament that if you disbelieve you WILL suffer in Hell. The Quran hammers down this idea even more often.


I do not worship what ye worship; nor worship ye that which I worship… Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine.


Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no God except He, and disregard the idol worshippers. Had God willed, they would not have worshipped idols. We did not appoint you as their guardian, nor are you their advocate. Do not curse the idols they have set up beside God, lest they blaspheme and curse God out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they have done. They swore by God, solemnly, that if a miracle came to them, they would surely believe. Say, "Miracles come only from God." For all you know, if a miracle did come to them, they would continue to disbelieve. We control their minds and their hearts. Thus, since their decision is to disbelieve, we leave them blundering in their transgressions.

Say what?

[synthesis]

There's no such thing as a religious moderate, to be honest.

Do you seriously believe that? I don't even know where to start with this one.

[leninfan]

Happy New Year cousins V.I. Lenin and Karl Marx
Don't burn the Manifesto please.

[Salyut]

Happy New Year cousins V.I. Lenin and Karl Marx
Don't burn the Manifesto please.

what

[leninfan]

what
Marx and Lenin were Jews by birth as so was I.
We don't believe in god though.
Marx may be my cousin...hence the Cousins remark

[Rafiq]

Terry Jones looks more like a Texas sheriff than a pastor...

Anyway, what is burning books going to solve? 100000000000 more will be printed.. All the do, is waste both money and paper...

[synthesis]

It's symbolic.

[RedStarOverChina]

I do not worship what ye worship; nor worship ye that which I worship… Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine.
You don't seem to know how to cite the Quran. It took me a long time to find this one in my version of the Quran I keep in my bed drawer. Yes, I keep a copy of Quran in my bed drawer. I'm weird like that. :)

Anyway, my version is slightly different. But the intention of this Surah has never been to condone other faiths, because the Surah starts up with a not so-reconcilatory cry of "O ye who reject faith!"

The actual meaning of this Surah is that a Muslim has received the Truth, whereas a disbeliever has been taught falsehood. But the disbeliever would not embrace the Truth, nor would a Muslim come to the "false ways". So each side should carry on doing what they're doing. (But in the end, you know what happens to the disbeliever--Hint, hint, wink, wink.) That's not my interpretation, it's that of A. Yusuf Ali. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali)



Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no God except He, and disregard the idol worshippers. Had God willed, they would not have worshipped idols. We did not appoint you as their guardian, nor are you their advocate. Do not curse the idols they have set up beside God, lest they blaspheme and curse God out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they have done. They swore by God, solemnly, that if a miracle came to them, they would surely believe. Say, "Miracles come only from God." For all you know, if a miracle did come to them, they would continue to disbelieve. We control their minds and their hearts. Thus, since their decision is to disbelieve, we leave them blundering in their transgressions. Essentially the same theme as the previous quote. Disbelieve and we pay for our own "transgressions" (in the afterlife).

See, the main difference between the Old Testament and later works such as the New Testament and the Quran is that the Old Testament strives to make the point that if you are disobedient to God, God will punish you in this life, often immediately. It does not talk about afterlife that much.

The New Testament and Quran, however, emphasize the brutal punishment in the afterlife. In these works, God sometimes does punish the sinners in THIS life. But the central theme has always been that worse is to come in the afterlife.

The quotes you provided do not dispute that in any way.

[Klaatu]

It may be that Jones is taking the novel "Fahrenheit 451" way too seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

[synthesis]

The New Testament and Quran, however, emphasize the brutal punishment in the afterlife. In these works, God sometimes does punish the sinners in THIS life. But the central theme has always been that worse is to come in the afterlife.

True, but there is a difference between "believe or die" and "believe or burn in Hell," and you seem to have conflated the two. One requires action on the part of believers, the other does not.


You don't seem to know how to cite the Quran.

It was an attempt at short-hand, but I had the sura right, at least, so I don't know how it would have been hard to find it.



The actual meaning of this Surah is that a Muslim has received the Truth, whereas a disbeliever has been taught falsehood. But the disbeliever would not embrace the Truth, nor would a Muslim come to the "false ways". So each side should carry on doing what they're doing. (But in the end, you know what happens to the disbeliever--Hint, hint, wink, wink.)

That's sort of disingenuous. I think there is a pretty wide gap between "to you, your religion, and to me, mine," on the one hand, and "kill the infidels" on the other.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

True, but there is a difference between "believe or die" and "believe or burn in Hell," and you seem to have conflated the two. One requires action on the part of believers, the other does not.

Actually, if a believer reckons they can save the unbeliever by converting them, then they can use any means available to them since no matter what horrors the evangelist puts the infidel through, it is nothing compared to what would be inflicted on them in the hereafter.

Hence you get stuff like the Inquisition.

[RedStarOverChina]

True, but there is a difference between "believe or die" and "believe or burn in Hell," and you seem to have conflated the two. One requires action on the part of believers, the other does not. I said that the emphasis of Quran is on the afterlife ("painful doom", "burn with fire", etc). That's what I've been arguing about the whole time. But there are numerous instances in which God either calls for war and murder against infidels or does it himself (especially in references to the Old Testament).

7:90 But the chieftains of his people, who were disbelieving, said: If ye follow Shu'eyb, then truly ye shall be the losers.
7:91 So the earthquake seized them and morning found them prostrate in their dwelling-place.
8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.
That's sort of disingenuous. I think there is a pretty wide gap between "to you, your religion, and to me, mine," on the one hand, and "kill the infidels" on the other.Since you brought it up...

9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. But no, that's not what I was arguing for. In the Quran, references to "killing infidels" did not come up nearly as frequently as "painful doom" in the afterlife. I did not mention anything about killing infidels because I don't want to seem like I'm "cherry picking" from the Quran.

I explained the Surah (109) to refute the perception you presented that Islam tolerates other religions---Absolutely not!

[synthesis]

Actually, if a believer reckons they can save the unbeliever by converting them, then they can use any means available to them since no matter what horrors the evangelist puts the infidel through, it is nothing compared to what would be inflicted on them in the hereafter.

Hence you get stuff like the Inquisition.

Well, I don't really think that's applicable here. You can't save someone from an afterlife in hell by killing them without converting them first. Generally, such sentiments as follow a certain pattern: first, you have some material reason to wish such a fate upon them, then you advocate "killing the infidels," then you go out and do it.

On a similar note, I also don't think that's a useful understanding of the Inquisition, at least if you were referring to its Spanish incarnation. Primarily, in my eyes, it was a way of restoring "native" dominance over the territory in question after centuries of Islamic rule.

To me, ascribing idealist motivations to the Inquisitions, or the Crusades, or "Islamicism" is closely tied with the phenomenon of "bourgeois atheism," a viewpoint that ignores those episodes' origins in political and therefore socioeconomic realities.

Like all ideas, people adapt and appropriate religion to suit their immediate social, political, and economic interests and necessities. That's the key issue here, not whether the Quran is possessed of religious tolerance.

When people deem it in their interests to argue that it commands believers to "kill the infidels," whether to attack or defend Islamic radicalism, they will find passages to support their assertions. When people are comfortable in their material conditions, they will find the passages which promote social harmony instead.

Same goes for the Bible. That's the way of the world. Just as Lenin sought to adapt Marx to Russian realities, and Mao sought to adapt Lenin to Chinese realities, religious people and institutions will adapt their texts to their own conditions. To argue otherwise isn't just ineffective - it's dangerous.

[synthesis]

...

I think what I wrote in response to NoXion's post applies equally to yours, so I won't repeat myself. Specifically in regard to your references to the Old Testament, however, I would add that a historical analysis of the origins of Islam suggests that Mohammed was also adapting Abrahamic religion to Arabic realities. It was progressive for its time.

When the Qu'ran says, for example, that men can have four wives, it would be more appropriate to read it as saying that men cannot have more than four wives. In pagan Arabia, women were regarded as chattel slaves to be bought and sold like cattle. Much like the concept of "an eye for an eye," it was a limitation, not a recommendation.

Finally, your analysis of the Sura is still not applicable. Whether or not Muslims believe non-Muslims will burn in hell, that sura still suggests, as you said, to allow them to "carry on in their separate ways," again, not to "kill the infidels."

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, I don't really think that's applicable here. You can't save someone from an afterlife in hell by killing them without converting them first.

Who said anything about killing? You can torture someone without killing them.


On a similar note, I also don't think that's a useful understanding of the Inquisition, at least if you were referring to its Spanish incarnation. Primarily, in my eyes, it was a way of restoring "native" dominance over the territory in question after centuries of Islamic rule.

To me, ascribing idealist motivations to the Inquisitions, or the Crusades, or "Islamicism" is closely tied with the phenomenon of "bourgeois atheism," a viewpoint that ignores those episodes' origins in political and therefore socioeconomic realities.

Like all ideas, people adapt and appropriate religion to suit their immediate social, political, and economic interests and necessities.

Doubtless there were all kinds of motivations involved in the Inquisition, from the mundane, base and profane to the holiest of ambitions. People will think of bread before they think of God, but that doesn't mean that peoples' thoughts on God aren't important motivating factors.


When people deem it in their interests to argue that it commands believers to "kill the infidels," whether to attack or defend Islamic radicalism, they will find passages to support their assertions. When people are comfortable in their material conditions, they will find the passages which promote social harmony instead.

Same goes for the Bible. That's the way of the world. Just as Lenin sought to adapt Marx to Russian realities, and Mao sought to adapt Lenin to Chinese realities, religious people and institutions will adapt their texts to their own conditions. To argue otherwise isn't just ineffective - it's dangerous.

Why can't it be both? Sure, if one's beliefs and actions are completely at variance with reality then one will not last long, but if one is rational to a good enough degree one can say and do the most absurd things and get away with it, so to speak. Especially if such beliefs are promulgated by respected institutions that are shielded from the consequences.

[synthesis]

Who said anything about killing? You can torture someone without killing them.

I still don't see how that's relevant here.


Doubtless there were all kinds of motivations involved in the Inquisition, from the mundane, base and profane to the holiest of ambitions. People will think of bread before they think of God, but that doesn't mean that peoples' thoughts on God aren't important motivating factors.

True. Both idealism and materialism can be restrictive when applied dogmatically, but I think the latter is generally more useful as a means of approaching the past and the present.


Why can't it be both? Sure, if one's beliefs and actions are completely at variance with reality then one will not last long, but if one is rational to a good enough degree one can say and do the most absurd things and get away with it, so to speak. Especially if such beliefs are promulgated by respected institutions that are shielded from the consequences.

It can certainly be both. Again, I don't think that's really applicable here. It's not so much about which beliefs are absurd and which ones are rational, but about people's motivations for promoting them.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I still don't see how that's relevant here.

If you believe in an afterlife where non-believers suffer the wrath of the ruler of the universe, then a "little" torture to help convince them of the correct path before their mortal life ends is logically acceptable, indeed imperative if you think by doing so you will either save them or help them save themselves.


True. Both idealism and materialism can be restrictive when applied dogmatically, but I think the latter is generally more useful as a means of approaching the past and the present.

Fair enough, but I can't help but feel that outright dismissals of critiques of religion on the basis of "idealism", if sincere, are groundless or based on misunderstandings, especially considering the critiques dismissed are most often advanced by materialists.


It can certainly be both. Again, I don't think that's really applicable here. It's not so much about which beliefs are absurd and which ones are rational, but about people's motivations for promoting them.

Beliefs that aren't promoted in some fashion don't tend to last, that much is obvious. As for why a particular belief is promoted, it could be a number of factors; I think one of the ones that can be applied to religious beliefs is that they previously served a materially useful role, but due to social and institutional inertia, they persist long after.

[synthesis]

If you believe in an afterlife where non-believers suffer the wrath of the ruler of the universe, then a "little" torture to help convince them of the correct path before their mortal life ends is logically acceptable, indeed imperative if you think by doing so you will either save them or help them save themselves.

Right, but what does that have to do with the distinction between "believe or die" and "believe or burn in hell," which was the claim to which you were responding?


Fair enough, but I can't help but feel that outright dismissals of critiques of religion on the basis of "idealism", if sincere, are groundless or based on misunderstandings, especially considering the critiques dismissed are most often advanced by materialists.

I probably echoed those same critiques just as much when I was 14. I now feel that those critiques are usually incomplete, mostly useless, and occasionally dangerous. I wasn't seeking to understand before I criticized.


Beliefs that aren't promoted in some fashion don't tend to last, that much is obvious. As for why a particular belief is promoted, it could be a number of factors; I think one of the ones that can be applied to religious beliefs is that they previously served a materially useful role, but due to social and institutional inertia, they persist long after.

I think we're getting sidetracked. We are discussing religious activity in the political sphere, and I think that most activity in the political sphere is rooted in socioeconomic conditions.

[Dimentio]

Please: Why must always anything pertaining provocations against muslims logically lead to apologism for Islam?

Especially since Jones' group doesn't dislike Islam because its a repressive religion, but due to racism and their own (evangelical fundamentalist) religious bigotry.

[chegitz guevara]

For the 9th anniversary of 9/11, a Gainesville, FL preacher, Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center, has announced his intention to burn Qurans. The Socialist Party of Florida condemns this actionin the strongest possible terms. While Jones and his congregation have the right to freedom of speech, the people of the world have the right to loudly and verbally register their disgust and outrage with this hateful event.

The ruling class of American imperialism, as well, has denounced this preacher, because his actions hurt its efforts at empire building in the Moslem world. In as much as we socialists oppose the Empire, we do not share this criticism and welcome greater resistance against the American imperialists.

For socialists, Jones' actions are not the actions of an isolated preacher with a mere fifty congregants; a meaningless gesture by a meaningless man. Jones is the tip of a wave an anti-Islamic reaction sweeping the nation. From protests against the enlarging of a mosque near Ground Zero, to the burning of a mosque in Tennessee, to efforts to stop the building of new mosques around the nation, anti-Islamic bigotry has become a rallying cry for far right reactionary movements, including the fascist movement known as the Tea Party.

In their desperate cry for relief from and their outrage at their failing economic fortunes caused by the capitalist economic crisis, these reactionary movements are seeking scapegoats upon whom to heap their fears and furies, someone to blame for their problems. These feelings of fear and rage have been fed by the ruling class, seeking aglobal enemy in order to justify continued empire building and military spending, the engine of the American economy. In vomiting up this ugly manifestation of American nativism and fascism, the rulingclass is reaping what it has sown.

The Socialist Party of Florida joins with our fellow comrades of other socialist organizations, with anti racist forces, and with justice loving people everywhere, to join in counter-demonstrations to stop this declaration of discrimination, hatred, and repression.

[Garret]

US pastor cancels Koran burning, saying he's won deal to move "Ground Zero" mosque
theaustralian.com.au/news/world/us-pastor-cancels-koran-burning-saying-hes-won-deal-to-move-ground-zero-mosque/story-e6frg6so-1225916989749?from=public_rss

Guess who's taking over.

ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t

[Q]

I'm sorry, I don't have a Quran, but is this ok too (http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/kevinlevie/Hr6Jv6Wo3NTLCgWmo4hTSKGyJRtfxLuEcuyshRpCBIBxJbsWVQ rGgjwkYkeE/IMG_20100910_044035.jpg.scaled.1000.jpg?AWSAccessK eyId=1C9REJR1EMRZ83Q7QRG2&Expires=1284134464&Signature=R7kqxQNOTytmcCrLQwkvxN0N04M%3D)?

[Os Cangaceiros]

US pastor cancels Koran burning, saying he's won deal to move "Ground Zero" mosque

...although the developers of the project deny any change in location.

[Cencus]

What sensible person really gives a toss if some fuck witted inbred self proclaimed preacher wants to burn a stack of some book? Hell if I was the publisher I'd be happy with the extra 200 sales. :lol:

The question about this steaming pile of horse shit to ask is who is gaining from from the media frenzy generated in the last few days. The answer to that is the same old faces as ever, those who seek to divide the working class.

[mosfeld]

Pastor Terry Jones: even his daughter thinks he's mad

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/Islam%20is%20of%20the%20Devil%20book.jpg?__SQUARES PACE_CACHEVERSION=1284162986713

The Florida Christian preacher who has received world fame and condemnation by threatening to burn a pile of Korans demands strict obedience and unpaid labor from his tiny flock and sells used furniture out of his sanctuary, those who know him say.

He was ejected from a church he headed in Germany by his own followers. Even his daughter says she believes he has lost his mind in his fanatical crusade against Islam.

Terry Jones, a previously obscure 58-year-old fundamentalist pastor with slicked-back gray hair and a shaggy mustache, has gained a global pulpit with his proposed burning of Korans, the Islamic holy book.

His estranged daughter, Emma Jones, called the church a cult that forced obedience through "mental violence" and threats of God's punishment. She said he ignored her emails urging him not to burn Korans.

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2010/9/10/pastor-terry-jones-even-his-daughter-thinks-hes-mad.html

[mosfeld]

FRSO Statement: Stop Koran Burning and Racist Attacks
Posted on September 10, 2010 by The Marxist-Leninist| 1 Comment

http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/gainsville-articlelarge.jpg?w=300&h=157

The Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO) denounces the planned burning of the Qur’an by a racist and reactionary church in Gainesville, Florida. We are outraged. Our organization is united with others, determined to stop this evil act with all the means available. We promise to do all in our power to shut down the Qur’an-burning by Terry Jones and his Dove Church.

Terry Jones is a bigot, a racist and a pro-war supporter of imperialism. He preaches hatred for Muslims and love for the U.S. wars against Arabs and Afghans. Jones, like many Tea Party supporters, wants more war and killing by the U.S. in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Middle East. They want to see the U.S. and Israel attack Iran. Jones cheers for the genocide in Iraq and wants the U.S. occupation to continue forever. Jones praises Israel, as it oppresses and murders Palestinians. Jones wants to oppress and exploit the rest of the world for the benefit of the rich and powerful here. Jones stands for everything we oppose.

Burning of the Qur’an is certainly a bigoted act against Muslims, but in the U.S. it is also a conscious act of racism against Arabs, South Asians and African-Americans. This is a continuation of the racist attacks we have seen so much of recently. From the furor over the building of mosques in New York, Kentucky and Tennessee, to Arizona’s racist laws against Chicanos, Latinos and undocumented immigrants, to the nationwide police brutality epidemic – like the University of Florida police shooting the face of African graduate student Kofi Abu-Brempong. Revolutionaries must oppose white chauvinism and national oppression in all its forms, including anti-Muslim attacks.

It should be stressed that the problem with the Qur’an-burning is a lot deeper than a lone nut with a few followers in Florida. The U.S. ruling class and its representatives in government have consciously and consistently promoted anti-Muslim bigotry. Look at the way that important politicians have dealt with the issue of the plan to build a mosque amongst the strip clubs and bars near where the World Trade Center was, or how racism and Islamophobia is used to justify U.S. wars and support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

We call upon all revolutionaries and progressive people to actively oppose the Qur’an-burning. We support freedom of religion and respect that the Qur’an is sacred to many people. Please join comrades and friends across the country organizing protests in solidarity with the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) at the University of Florida in Gainesville. Act now to stop Jones and his hateful followers. Join us in the fight to end racism and oppression.

http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/frso-statement-stop-koran-burning-and-racist-attacks/

[mosfeld]

Minneapolis stands up against anti-Muslim bigotry, racism and war

http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/article-lead-photo/fb1_0.jpg

Minneapolis, MN - More than 200 people came together for a rally here, Sept. 11 to speak out against a wave of anti-Muslim bigotry that has spread across the U.S. This included the threatened Qur’an burning in Gainesville Florida. The event also called for an end to U.S. wars and occupations being carried out in the name of ‘fighting terrorism.’

Meredith Aby, a member of the Anti-War Committee said, “Today people of good conscience will gather in New York, Gainesville, Minneapolis and other cities to say no to anti-Muslim bigotry, racism and war. We are outraged at the racist attacks and threats against our Muslim brothers and sisters. The burning of the Qur’an and the furor over the building of mosques in New York, Kentucky and Tennessee are bigoted acts against Muslims. These are also conscious acts of racism against Arabs, South Asians and African-Americans.”

Aby also stated, “9/11 was used as an excuse to justify starting what has become a nine-year war on Afghanistan. It was used to create an elaborate web of lies justifying a preemptive attack on Iraq. The U.S. has lost over 5600 soldiers in these wars and over 1 million people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. These wars are motivated by greed and racism. We demand an end to this senseless bloodshed.”

The rally in Minneapolis coincided with protests, speak-outs and other events in cities around the U.S. that called for an end to attacks on the Muslim community.

The Saturday event was initiated by the Anti-War Committee and endorsed by Al-Aqsa Institute, Coalition for Palestinian Rights, Freedom Road Socialist Organization, the Minnesota Immigrant Rights Action Committee (MIRAc), Iraq Peace Action Coalition, Iraq Veterans Against the War-MN, Military Families Speak Out-MN, Palestine-Israel Justice Project of the United Methodist Church, RNC 8 Defense Committee, SDS at the U of M, Twin Cities Peace Campaign, Veterans for Peace Chapter 27, the Welfare Rights Committee and Women Against Military Madness.

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2010/9/11/minneapolis-stands-against-anti-muslim-bigotry-racism-and-war

[mosfeld]

Chicago protests opposes threatened Koran burning

Chicago, IL - Students in Chicago came together today to oppose the threatened Qu’ran burning by the Dove Church in Gainesville, Florida. As part of a nationwide response, Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) chapters from the University of Illinois-Chicago, Wright College and Columbia College joined together with others from Northeastern Illinois University, Northern Illinois University and the Palestine Solidarity Group.

As cars driving by honked in support of the protesters, Alaa Saleh, a Palestinian student from Wright College SDS, led the chant: “One, two, three, four! We don’t want your racist wars! Five, six, seven, eight! No to bigotry and hate!” Saleh stated, “It is important to stand up for what is right.”

“These attacks are aimed at the communities who are already victims of U.S. wars and the U.S.-backed occupation of Palestine,” explained Hatem Abudayyeh of the Arab American Action Network.

Abudayyeh continued, “The hate against Arabs and Muslims is not new, and it’s not just in Gainesville and it’s not only members of our community that are targeted. We’re here to take a stand against attacks on Arabs, Muslims and all immigrants.” Kait McIntyre said that it was very powerful for her to know that SDS chapters all across the country were holding protests today.

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2010/9/11/chicago-protests-opposes-threatened-koran-burning

[mosfeld]

Thousands show solidarity with New York’s Muslim community
By John Catalinotto

New York
Sep 11, 2010

http://www.iacenter.org/img/nyc091110.jpg

In a city that is home to more nationalities than any other in the world, all seemed represented in the crowd of thousands who came to demonstrate in the City Hall area on Sept. 11. They were there to express solidarity with the Muslim community in the struggle over the building of an Islamic Community Center near the World Trade Center site.

Answering the call of the Emergency Mobilization Against Racism & Anti-Muslim Bigotry, people from Boston, Washington and in between joined thousands of New Yorkers in a display of the strength of the anti-racist movement that embraced young and old, people of all the colors of the city and region, gay and straight. The demonstrators exuded a spirit of unity and cooperation by chanting, marching and then chipping in their labor to clean up at the end of the day’s action.

International Action Center co-coordinator Sara Flounders, one of the rally chairs, told this writer that “10,000 people joined today, coming from dozens of communities in the city. They represented neighborhood organizations, religious groups of all kinds, political and anti-war groups and human rights groups. Many workers wore their union caps or tee shirts.”



New York, Sept. 11.
photo: John Catalinotto
Just naming Flounders’ co-chairs gives a modest idea of the breadth of the rally’s support: They were Sayel Kayed of American Muslims for Palestine; Dr. Asha A. Samad-Matias of the Safrad Somali Association and the Muslim Women’s Coalition; Lucy Pagoda of the May 1st Coalition for Worker and Immigrant Rights; and Amadi Ajamu of the December 12th Movement. Another 48 diverse speakers and cultural groups gave greetings or performances.

At 3 p.m. the pro-unity gathering far outnumbered an anti-Muslim protest organized by the much-publicized Tea Party. In addition, hundreds of anti-racist protesters, many with home-made signs, were surrounding the Tea Party and showing their opposition to its message of hatred. Just two weeks earlier the anti-Muslim crowd had been getting the main media attention and was pouring money into advertising for their action.

In late August the IAC had put out an initial call for a counter-rally; soon more than 100 organizations had come together and formed the Emergency Mobilization. With little time to organize and less money, the ad hoc group was still able to get out 100,000 pieces of literature in the two weeks before the rally.

“We had to organize on a shoestring budget,” said Flounders, “putting the bills for leaflets and posters and signs on people’s credit cards and hoping we could pay for the demonstration. It was worth it. We showed that a broad section of the city won’t let the racists invade and dominate 9/11.”

The message from the nearly 50 speakers on the stage of the Emergency Mobilization action was a strong one of solidarity and unity — solidarity with the Muslim community in the United States and unity of all the forces who came that day in the struggle against all forms of racism and scapegoating, against U.S. wars abroad and for jobs, education and social benefits at home.

One of those speakers, Larry Holmes of the Bail Out the People Movement, told this writer, “We brought out the real New York City — a city of workers and peoples of color from all around the world. This mobilization started because we were forced to defend our Muslim sisters and brothers. It will continue because we have to open up the struggle against war, against racism, and for jobs, education and health care. There is much more to fight for and now we all know who we can count on.”

http://www.iacenter.org/actions/muslimsolidarity091210/

Emergency Rally in Asheville, NC to Stop Anti-Muslim Bigotry, Racism and War
Rallies set in cities across the U.S. against planned Koran burning

Read more articles in Oppressed Nationalities
Students for a Democratic Society at the University of North Carolina-Asheville will hold a rally downtown along with peace, social justice and other activists from the Asheville community on Sept. 11, the anniversary of the 2001 attacks in New York and Washington D.C., to speak out against a wave of anti-Muslim bigotry that has spread across the U.S. in recent weeks. The event will also call for an end to U.S. wars and occupations being carried out in the name of ‘fighting terrorism.’ This rally will coincide with others like it being held in cities across the country.

The rally will be held Sept. 11 at 1:00 p.m. at Pack Square in downtown Asheville.

On Sept. 11, right-wing groups plan to demonstrate at the World Trade Center site to whip up hysteria against a proposal to build an Islamic community center several blocks from the WTC site. On that same day, Christian fundamentalists plan a “Burn the Qur’an” day in Florida.

Jeremy Miller, an organizer with Students for a Democratic Society, said, “Sept. 11, 2001 was a tragedy. It was tragedy for those who lost their lives on that day and has been an ongoing tragedy for the victims of the ‘war of terror’ that has been waged on the people of the world since then.”

“We demand an end to the wars and occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan now and that all the troops be brought home,” Miller continued. “We must not allow what happened on that day to be used as a justification for these ongoing wars for empire or for anti-Muslim bigotry and anti-Arab racism. We will join our sisters and brothers in Gainseville Florida, New York and in many other cities around the country to stand up and fight back!”

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2010/9/11/emergency-rally-asheville-nc-stop-anti-muslim-bigotry-racism-and-war

Gainesville SDS will march on bigots threatening to burn Koran


http://www.fightbacknews.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/article-lead-photo/IMG_4349-1%20(2).jpg

SDS is preparing a protest at the Dove World Outreach Center, the site of the possible Qur’an burning. (Photo: Allan Brookes)
Gainesville, FL - Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) came together here, Sept. 10, for a pre-demonstration action at the Dove World Outreach Center, the site of the possible Qur’an burning. SDS organizers announced plans for major march and rally Sept. 11 to oppose racism and anti-Muslim bigotry.

Justin Wooten of Gainesville area SDS states, “We are serious about standing up to these reactionaries and racists. We will not remain silent in the face of anti-Muslim bigots. We are ready to march on them tomorrow.”

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2010/9/11/gainesville-sds-will-march-bigots-threatening-burn-koran