Palestine or Israel?

[L.A.P.]

I've always remained neutral on this issue and have never really given two shits and i don't know much about the conflict so can anyone tell me who they support in this conflict and why so I can get an idea?

[Rafiq]

We generally support the PLFP, which is a Palestinian Marxist group that supports a one-state solution with Jews and Arabs ruling together..

[Pirate Utopian]

I highly recommend you watch Occupation 101 on googlevideo if you are truely neutral.

[bricolage]

We generally support the PLFP, which is a Palestinian Marxist group that supports a one-state solution with Jews and Arabs ruling together..
who the hell is we?

[#FF0000]

I don't know if I can say I support Hamas or the PFLP but I definitely don't support Israel.

I suggest watching Occupation 101 like Pirate Utopian suggested. You can find it on Google Video

[zimmerwald1915]

who the hell is we?
Whatever organization Shariati is part of?

EDIT: just so we're clear, xx1994xx, not everybody on here supports the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

[Antifa94]

I like the DFLP and PFLP. The PLO was aight before Arafat became a sell-out and became more right wing.

[Who?]

Long live the PFLP and the PLO. :thumbup1:

I support Palestinian liberation personally but you should do some research and draw your own opinion on the matter.

[maskerade]

Anyone who supports Israel is supporting war crimes and an illegal occupation.

It's not really hard to make one's mind up...

[Nolan]

who the hell is we?

People who consider themselves anti-imperialist and Marxist. It's the only group that makes sense.

[Widerstand]

Being the closet Anti-German that I am, I support Israel because of massive angst of failing at Vergangenheitsbewältigung, and because they are a bastion of human rights created by the anti-fascist global force of the USA, constantly opposing anti-human Islamofascists of the PLO and PLFP.

I hope this was sarcastic enough.

[zimmerwald1915]

People who consider themselves anti-imperialist and Marxist. It's the only group that makes sense.
Other things that make sense:

Shariati was talking about his organization and expecting xx1994xx to know what that is. In other words, he was "being vague."

Shariati was claiming to speak for all of Revleft, and doing so because he ignorantly assumed all its members held that position. In other words, he was "speaking from ignorance".

Shariati was claiming to speak for all of Revleft because he deliberately wanted to mislead xx1994xx into believing all its members held that position. In other words, he was "misrepresenting."

Or perhaps we all became tankies within the last fifteen minutes. Whatever.

[freepalestine]

books on the subject would be good ,e.g. Question of Palestine+from oslo to iraqand the roadmap+politics of dispossesion by edward said,the fateful triangle+middle east illusions by chomsky,image and reality..by finklestein,iron cage by r.khalidi and ethnic cleansing of palestine by ilan pappe

[Saorsa]

erm supporting the PFLP doesn't make you a tankie. It makes you an internationalist. Look into the concept.

[The Vegan Marxist]

lol, Tankie. Boy do I hate that word. Either way, I agree overall with what Comrade A said. To support the PFLP is to be an internationalist.

[28350]

I support the PFLP, personally.
I'm not sure that they support the equal participation of both Jews and Arabs in government, though.

[Animal Farm Pig]

I support the kibbutzim.

[maskerade]

I support the PFLP, personally.
I'm not sure that they support the equal participation of both Jews and Arabs in government, though.

i'm pretty sure they would decide involvement in the government along class lines, not race lines

[Nwoye]

oh definitely Israel.

[28350]

I support the kibbutzim.

The labor zionist movement is pretty much dead. The only kibbutzim left are really big (EDIT - Read: collaborate with Israel, no tension between them and Israel itself) and not that leftist. Also, how do kibbutzim offer an end to oppression of Palestinians?


i'm pretty sure they would decide involvement in the government along class lines, not race lines

I think that's a little naïve. Never have successful anti-Imperialist revolutions invited participation of people of the Imperialist nation (I think).


oh definitely Israel.

lol your tendency is showing

[freepalestine]

I support the PFLP, personally. I'm not sure that they support the equal participation of both Jews and Arabs in government, though. hey.all leftist forces,and other progressives in palestine support equality for all.even fatah have jewish members.many pflp and solidarity groups abroad,we work alongside many comrades who are jewish , against zionism and for human rights.

[maskerade]

I think that's a little naïve. Never have successful anti-Imperialist revolutions invited participation of people of the Imperialist nation (I think).


Mozambique? Several ministers in Mozambique's first post-independence, marxist-leninist government were portuguese.

And PFLP's struggle doesn't stop with the overthrow of the Israeli occupation, but the overthrow of the capitalist system. When that happens, I'm guessing Israel's working class will be more class consciouss.

[Animal Farm Pig]

The labor zionist movement is pretty much dead. The only kibbutzim left are really big (EDIT - Read: collaborate with Israel, no tension between them and Israel itself) and not that leftist. Also, how do kibbutzim offer an end to oppression of Palestinians?

That's too bad. I have no first-hand experience. I just have to go from what I've read.

I base my answer of "Who do I support" on who has come closest to actually practicing socialism. Something existing in the real world can never match up to the ideal, so I recognize that the kibbutzim are (and have been) far from perfect. Still, the original kibbutz model seems good.

Perhaps Arabs can form similar structures.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I don't really support anyone, but I am against both the Israeli occupation and violation of international laws as well as Palestinians who believe that they can achieve their goals via violence.

[Saorsa]

The PFLP is a secular Marxist-Leninist organisation. They oppose discrimination of all kinds.

[Rusty Shackleford]

anti zionism, not anti-semitism.

fuck israel. let there be a single, secular, state of palestine where all nationalities, including jews and arabs, can live peacefully and cooperatively.

[freepalestine]

That's too bad. I have no first-hand experience. I base my answer of "Who do I support" on who has come closest to actually practicing socialism. Something existing in the real world can never match up to the ideal, so I recognize that the kibbutzim are (and have been) far from perfect. Still, the original kibbutz model seems good. Perhaps Arabs can form similar structures. yeh.racist exclusionist structures like kibbutz.theres nothing Socialist about them.ffs

[Animal Farm Pig]

yeh.racist exclusionist structures like kibbutz.theres nothing Socialist about them.ffs

So, start an Arab kibbutz or an integrated kibbutz. Why not? I don't see anything exclusively Jewish about common ownership, common distribution of work, and common distribution of generated surplus.

I'm not upholding kibbutzim as the end product that socialists should be working towards; however, such a structure is practical within the context of a capitalist world for improving the lives of individual workers, but also, more importantly, for creating economic power. And, we know economic power is the only real power in world capitalism.

[freepalestine]

lol.anyway,may be if a palestinian gets permission to build a shed from the isreali Occupation,then that would be a good step.but really maybe we should build a kibbutz inthe middle of jaffa-tel aviv.

[DragonQuestWes]

As of late, I've been more supportive of Palestine, because to me, it's getting more and more clear that Israel is as Norman Finkelstein put it, becoming a "lunatic" state. We can see that there's Jews against Israel.

[Sam_b]

I support the Palestinian people's right to organise the defence of their homeland as they see fit. If this means Hamas, which my organisation takes a position of unconditional critical support towards, then so be it.

[L.A.P.]

I am completely convinced that I should support Palestine, the media tries to make it seem like they are a bunch of Islamic terrorist but after I read about the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Fatah and seeing their secular ideas I'm convinced to take Palestine's side.

[Crimson Commissar]

I support the Palestinian people's right to organise the defence of their homeland as they see fit. If this means Hamas, which my organisation takes a position of unconditional critical support towards, then so be it.
You would support an islamic fundamentalist organisation just because they fight against Israel? That's pretty much the equivalent of supporting fascism just because fascists occasionally fight against capitalism. :rolleyes:

[Rafiq]

Other things that make sense:

Shariati was talking about his organization and expecting xx1994xx to know what that is. In other words, he was "being vague."

Shariati was claiming to speak for all of Revleft, and doing so because he ignorantly assumed all its members held that position. In other words, he was "speaking from ignorance".

Shariati was claiming to speak for all of Revleft because he deliberately wanted to mislead xx1994xx into believing all its members held that position. In other words, he was "misrepresenting."

Or perhaps we all became tankies within the last fifteen minutes. Whatever.


Okay, Sorry I thought most people on Revleft support them..


I didn't assume everyone had that position, I just assumed most of them did....

Now take a seat and shut your mouth.

[Rafiq]

You would support an islamic fundamentalist organisation just because they fight against Israel? That's pretty much the equivalent of supporting fascism just because fascists occasionally fight against capitalism. :rolleyes:


Fascists don't fight against Capitalism.. Sorry.

And I'm not saying this in support of Hamas, I'm just saying that they aren't as fundamentalist as other Islamist groups in Palestine...

Hamas held a bloody clash and crushed a Faction of Al Queda in Gaza not too long ago..

Although they may have Islamist views, they are nothing compared to the other Fundamentalist Islamists in Palestine..

[Rafiq]

As of late, I've been more supportive of Palestine, because to me, it's getting more and more clear that Israel is as Norman Finkelstein put it, becoming a "lunatic" state. We can see that there's Jews against Israel.


Most Leftist Jews are against Israel's policy's.. Israel doesn't represent the Jewish people..

As Trotsky said... Israel is a mockery of the Jewish people..

[Sam_b]

Girls don't exist for men "to get" as if they are some kind of "property", no matter how deeply entrenched such ideas are in our fundamentally macho and sexist society.

I'd love you to go to Gaza and tell those poor Palestinians how they should organise. You clearly know better than them :rolleyes:

[Yehuda Stern]

Sam, the SWP isn't doing the Palestinians any favors by supporting Hamas, unconditionally, critically, whatever. They are a bourgeois organization which will inevitably end up betraying the struggle for national liberation. Do you really not know about their proposal to accept the two state solution, dating back to 2004? Do you not know that Hamas has already made all sorts of rotten with Israel? Do you not know that it has been instrumental in suppressing protests inside Gaza against Israel? It should be easy for anyone who knows anything about the history of Palestine that Hamas is a Palestinian Authority II waiting to happen.

By the way, I agree that in certain military conflicts the working class' interest is in a Hamas victory; certainly this was the case in the Fatah-Hamas clash and in the various assault on Gaza by Israel. But such support doesn't mean giving political support to an organization which will simply use such support to stab the masses in the back.

[freepalestine]

Hamas actions are against political descent are identical to the p.a.-with harrassing political opponents.altho the p.a. are attacking opponents on behalf of the occupation.

[*PRC*Kensei]

Let's not debate who are the most crazy religious...

Simple question: Who are the oppressed ones? On what side are humans in serious need of help?

Palistina of course, can't let those people rot away in that open air prison gaza.