Communist Party of Quebec

[GreenCommunism]

Hello, i am here to introduce you to the Communist Party of Quebec for those who reside in that region. it is Marxist-leninist and historically linked to the third international

It used to be part of the Communist Party of Canada for a long while albeit it had a specific Quebec section which is now the Communist Party of Quebec. in 2002 it joined with the Rassemblement pour l'alternative progressiste (RAP) and the Parti de la démocratie-socialiste (PDS)two social-democratic party to form the UFP in order to create a stronger left unity.

in 2005 it split with the Canadian communist party over the question of independance. they also supported the 1980 and 1995 'Yes' vote on the referendum.

in 2006 the UFP merge with Option Citoyenne, a feminist and environmentalist group to create Quebec solidaire which now has about 8% of the national vote.

it consistently tries to bring the political spectrum to the left and while quebec solidaire did not explicitly claim to be socialist, they openly state that we need a post-capitalist society and that we cannot reform capitalism. the next congress will be about the economy and it is with great anticipation that i and other party members look forward to this meeting.

other new members of quebec solidaire is Gauche Socialiste, linked to the 4th international. Masse critique, Anti-Capitalist and independantist. Socialisme International, which describes itself as a network of Socialist fighting anything that divides people and destroys solidarity. Tendance Marxiste International is a trotskyiste group that fight so that QS becomes a working class party, it is linked to the international marxist tendency. there is also Décroissance conviviale which is an environmentalist group.

Any questions?

[Who?]

I'm not from Quebec or anything but I definitely support your platform. :thumbup1:

When do you predict the political climate to once again shift in favor of another referendum? I haven't heard much about the liberation movement lately.

[Prairie Fire]

What is the relation between Quebec Solidaire and the PMLQ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_marxiste-l%C3%A9niniste_du_Qu%C3%A9bec

http://www.cpcml.ca/francais/

Are you on friendly terms with one another? A working relationship?

[GreenCommunism]

I'm not from Quebec or anything but I definitely support your platform. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/thumbup1.gif

When do you predict the political climate to once again shift in favor of another referendum? I haven't heard much about the liberation movement lately. i participated to a march in it's favor but lately it has gone down to about 40-45% of support since people are tired of the debate and don't believe they can actually win it, this is what happen when the will of a people is crushed!

the economy is also not doing well and the majority of people skeptical or opposed to independance is because of the possible economic disturbance that would be caused by the liberation of Quebec. It's good to see a comrade outside of Quebec in favor of independance :).


What is the relation between Quebec Solidaire and the PMLQ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_m...du_Qu%C3%A9bec (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_marxiste-l%C3%A9niniste_du_Qu%C3%A9bec)

http://www.cpcml.ca/francais/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.cpcml.ca/francais/)

Are you on friendly terms with one another? A working relationship? I tried to contact them to know their position when i was about to join the PCQ but they never contacted me back. i believe they don't want to ally with anything close to social-democracy and i can't blame them for being skeptical of such an idea, but historically the communist party in canada has often proned cooperation between social democrats and communist but the social-democrats blocked such attempts.

i believe we are on unfriendly terms with the communist party of canada, and perhaps also the maoist PCR. We might be on friendly term with the PMLQ but i don't think we have a working or cooperation relationship sadly.

i will try to contact them again to see what their position is and if they exclude any cooperation, i will also bring the subject up whenever i contact one of the central committee members.

Edit : they don't seem to have any email to know their position on anything :(.

[Q]

other new members of quebec solidaire is Gauche Socialiste, linked to the 4th international. Masse critique, Anti-Capitalist and independantist. Socialisme International, which describes itself as a network of Socialist fighting anything that divides people and destroys solidarity. Tendance Marxiste International is a trotskyiste group that fight so that QS becomes a working class party, it is linked to the international marxist tendency. there is also Décroissance conviviale which is an environmentalist group.

For the sake of being (more) complete: the Mouvement pour le Parti Socialiste du Québec (http://mpsquebec.org/) (MPSQ), the CWI group recently established there, is also active in Québec Solidaire. At last year's CWI summerschool I had a interview with one of them, which you can read here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http://socialisten.net/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle% 26id%3D593:interview-met-nieuw-lid-uit-quebec-canada%26catid%3D3:socialisme%26Itemid%3D11) (auto-translated by Google). They started out as a split from the PCQ actually.

[Pavlov's House Party]

For the sake of being (more) complete: the Mouvement pour le Parti Socialiste du Québec (http://mpsquebec.org/) (MPSQ), the CWI group recently established there, is also active in Québec Solidaire. At last year's CWI summerschool I had a interview with one of them, which you can read here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http://socialisten.net/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle% 26id%3D593:interview-met-nieuw-lid-uit-quebec-canada%26catid%3D3:socialisme%26Itemid%3D11) (auto-translated by Google). They started out as a split from the PCQ actually.

The IMT also has a branch in Quebec (right now operating mostly in Montreal) called La Riposte (http://www.marxiste.qc.ca/), which works actively with Québec Solidaire.

[Pavlov's House Party]

it consistently tries to bring the political spectrum to the left and while quebec solidaire did not explicitly claim to be socialist, they openly state that we need a post-capitalist society and that we cannot reform capitalism. the next congress will be about the economy and it is with great anticipation that i and other party members look forward to this meeting.

imo, Quebec Solidaire has been pretty much hijacked by environmentalists and nationalists. a while back in a congress the main representative of the trade unions (i forget his name) tore up his membership card and left in the middle of an argument.

the workers in Quebec need their own party, even more so now because the main bourgeois parties like the PQ are linked to organized crime, and it's pretty much common knowledge.

[GreenCommunism]

linked to organized crime? what organized crime? every single political parties probably receives money for things like that.

i don't know about that, i admit that i had strong doubt about it, but the congress about economics is actually going on today. so i'll see what conclusions they come to, a man from gauche socialist is talking about economics there. eco-socialism wouldn't be too bad i guess.

it looks like there was more small splintered groups than i thought, since when did they split? they are trotskyiste i believe, it may be for that reason that the journal was full of anti-stalin example, not that it is bad, only that trotsky vs stalin is an old debate.

i'll like to know more about this incident, also i do think quebec solidaire is social-democrats, they denounce the in iraq as well as afghanistan, there seems to be a strong feminist and environmentalist block within it, but many of their propaganda shows how the wealthy do not pay the amount of tax they should, they are at the very least social-democrats i believe.

[Soseloshvili]

:( You're party basically destroyed the only French Socialist press running in this country, Clarté, when it basically boycotted the CPC. You haven't even made a new one yet, there's no solid Communist party in Quebec.

I mean instead of staying with the Communist Party of Canada and fighting for the independence issue you actually just stood up and left. It's not the right course of action, you're just being Factionalist when you do that. I mean you made up a significant portion of the party, you could have kept trying.

By the way, before you criticize me as a Nationalist for being against Quebec's sovereignty, I do support Quebec's independence (on some grounds, I believe you Quebecois get a little carried away with your demands especially when it comes to economics) and I campaign for it within the CPC.

I also try to make all these petty Factionalist parties NOT fight one another... which is what I'm trying to do right now, I guess. :(

[Q]

:( You're party basically destroyed the only French Socialist press running in this country, Clarté, when it basically boycotted the CPC. You haven't even made a new one yet, there's no solid Communist party in Quebec.

I mean instead of staying with the Communist Party of Canada and fighting for the independence issue you actually just stood up and left. It's not the right course of action, you're just being Factionalist when you do that. I mean you made up a significant portion of the party, you could have kept trying.

By the way, before you criticize me as a Nationalist for being against Quebec's sovereignty, I do support Quebec's independence (on some grounds, I believe you Quebecois get a little carried away with your demands especially when it comes to economics) and I campaign for it within the CPC.

I also try to make all these petty Factionalist parties NOT fight one another... which is what I'm trying to do right now, I guess. :(
Emphasis added.

1. I don't think you understand the word "factional". Being a faction is to be an organised political current within a party. The Bolsheviks were a faction within the RSDLP for example (its dominant one most of the time, so people mistakenly view them as their own party). I think you meant to say "splitters", which would be more correct.
2. I think the Quebecois view themselves as a nation, so perhaps you meant to say anti-nationalist? I see nothing wrong with that per se.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Quebec sovergeintists, an example of why i am against national liberation movements. As a communist party your fight for justice should expand across the country, not end where Quebecois borders are. The working class is one in the same. From newfoundland to british columbia. Fight for them all

[Q]

Quebec sovergeintists, an example of why i am against national liberation movements. As a communist party your fight for justice should expand across the country, not end where Quebecois borders are. The working class is one in the same. From newfoundland to british columbia. Fight for them all

Even stronger: Communist fight for the biggest possible unity as we recognise the working class as a world class.

[Soseloshvili]

1. I don't think you understand the word "factional". Being a faction is to be an organised political current within a party. The Bolsheviks were a faction within the RSDLP for example (its dominant one most of the time, so people mistakenly view them as their own party). I think you meant to say "splitters", which would be more correct.

The PCQ started as a faction within the Communist Party of Canada. Even if they have broken ties with the CPC they are still factionalist for dividing the party. A faction is an ideological break in a formerly unified ideology, regardless of parties. Technically the break between Anarchism and Communism can be classified as such, and I consider it that way.



2. I think the Quebecois view themselves as a nation, so perhaps you meant to say anti-nationalist? I see nothing wrong with that per se.

I meant a Canadian Nationalist. I wanted people not to refer to me as a Canadian Nationalist, because I am not.

[RedScare]

I'm in favor of Quebec independence, and I wish you guys luck. Being in the US means we can't do much besides declare solidarity and sit on the sidelines of this one and watch.

[Pavlov's House Party]

Quebec sovergeintists, an example of why i am against national liberation movements. As a communist party your fight for justice should expand across the country, not end where Quebecois borders are. The working class is one in the same. From newfoundland to british columbia. Fight for them all

some serious anglo-chauvinism going on here...

many quebec socialists, myself included, want all workers to benefit from socialism, but we also believe that quebec is an opressed nation that can only achieve true independance through socialism.

[danyboy27]

some serious anglo-chauvinism going on here...

many quebec socialists, myself included, want all workers to benefit from socialism, but we also believe that quebec is an opressed nation that can only achieve true independance through socialism.

tthe opression the worker of quebec is no more different than the opression the worker of ontario or saskatchewan might endure.

most of the independentist movement are controled by some big Nationalist bourgeois who promote some kind of social democratie elitist bullshit.
nationalist bourgeois making money off the worker and fuelling hate of the english speaking peoples, dividing worker even more.

for those people, independence is just another way to make more money off the worker, and making people forget their class status thru blind nationalism.

[Die Rote Fahne]

some serious anglo-chauvinism going on here...

many quebec socialists, myself included, want all workers to benefit from socialism, but we also believe that quebec is an opressed nation that can only achieve true independance through socialism.

Oppressed? Don't make me fucking laugh. The Palestinians are oppressed.

How can you consider Quebec to be oppressed? Is it the lack of Quebecois that are elected into power? Cause Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Pierre Trudeau (Who I admire and advocate as the greatest Canadian PM) were Quebecois.

Wait, it must be the economic disadvantage of the French-Canadians? Right?

How is it anglo-chauvinism? Who is saying I'm not Quebecois myself? What does my opposition to Newfoundland sovereignty make me?

What these nationalist movements do is cause divides within the working class.

"Workers should organise irrespective of nationality within the frontiers of the capitalist State in which they found themselves and should not seek to re-draw these frontiers, the struggle to achieve which would merely divert workers from the class struggle and Socialism."

[GreenCommunism]

I mean instead of staying with the Communist Party of Canada and fighting for the independence issue you actually just stood up and left. It's not the right course of action, you're just being Factionalist when you do that. I mean you made up a significant portion of the party, you could have kept trying.

By the way, before you criticize me as a Nationalist for being against Quebec's sovereignty, I do support Quebec's independence (on some grounds, I believe you Quebecois get a little carried away with your demands especially when it comes to economics) and I campaign for it within the CPC.

I also try to make all these petty Factionalist parties NOT fight one another... which is what I'm trying to do right now, I guess.

the party fought so that the communist party would be in favor of independance but the communist party of canada fought it and wouldn't let it happen, since we couldn't get it done even if an overwhelming majority of quebecois members were in favor of it. they split.


tthe opression the worker of quebec is no more different than the opression the worker of ontario or saskatchewan might endure.

most of the independentist movement are controled by some big Nationalist bourgeois who promote some kind of social democratie elitist bullshit.
nationalist bourgeois making money off the worker and fuelling hate of the english speaking peoples, dividing worker even more.

for those people, independence is just another way to make more money off the worker, and making people forget their class status thru blind nationalism.

quebec nationalism would, far from stimulating xenophobia, give us a strong state with which the quebecois people would stop feeling threatened by english cultural domination. it would stop xenophobia much more than it would fuel it. to be honest, it is a nationalism of the oppressed and you shouldn't let this nationalism be in the hand of the right. every time the right has been more nationalist than the social-democrat left there has been a large number of social-democrats voting to the right.


Oppressed? Don't make me fucking laugh. The Palestinians are oppressed.

How can you consider Quebec to be oppressed? Is it the lack of Quebecois that are elected into power? Cause Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Pierre Trudeau (Who I admire and advocate as the greatest Canadian PM) were Quebecois.

Wait, it must be the economic disadvantage of the French-Canadians? Right?

How is it anglo-chauvinism? Who is saying I'm not Quebecois myself? What does my opposition to Newfoundland sovereignty make me?

What these nationalist movements do is cause divides within the working class.

"Workers should organise irrespective of nationality within the frontiers of the capitalist State in which they found themselves and should not seek to re-draw these frontiers, the struggle to achieve which would merely divert workers from the class struggle and Socialism."
__________________

i hate to be the one breaking it to you, being from canada means you are fed propaganda in order to make you believe our independance movement is bullshit, that we are not oppressed etc. look at how israel pretends that the blockade doesn't have anything to do with the humanitarian problems in palestine. i don't want another barrack obama leading canada and doing nothing for the rights of the black minority, is that clear?

if you knew anything about our history, you would know we were oppressed, you would know we were a whole lot more oppressed before the independance movement. and you would know that swearing loyalty to a queen foreign to our nation in order to gain any public office is oppression at it's best.

stop being such an oppressive nationalist, our nationalism is a nationalism of the oppressed, and yours is the nationalism of the oppressor which denies the oppression of it's victim.

we have the role of oppressors when it comes to the native american population of quebec in which there is a well deserved anti-quebec sentiment. Quebec solidaire and especially this party tries to clean off this bad relationship and start anew,create a nation which will actually respect their treaties. if they wish to create their own nation, we would respect it, oppressed people such as the first nations and quebec shouldn't fight each other, they should aim to struggle against the oppressor nation that wish to divide and conquer.

what happens when nationalism isn't used by the left ( which by the way, if you don't realize it, social-democrats are the left, even if a soft one) you get the duplessis, you get the racist ADQ, this is what happens when you do this ultra-leftist idiocy. it has been said over and over again, the most important part of our independance movement is to be known internationally and vote at the UN for example. the people of quebec are more to the left than the rest of canada, the people of quebec are very internationalist. independance means this country adds it's voice internationally instead of being drowned in liberal and conservative canada.

[Die Rote Fahne]

i hate to be the one breaking it to you, being from canada means you are fed propaganda in order to make you believe our independance movement is bullshit, that we are not oppressed etc. look at how israel pretends that the blockade doesn't have anything to do with the humanitarian problems in palestine. i don't want another barrack obama leading canada and doing nothing for the rights of the black minority, is that clear?

if you knew anything about our history, you would know we were oppressed, you would know we were a whole lot more oppressed before the independance movement. and you would know that swearing loyalty to a queen foreign to our nation in order to gain any public office is oppression at it's best.

stop being such an oppressive nationalist, our nationalism is a nationalism of the oppressed, and yours is the nationalism of the oppressor which denies the oppression of it's victim.

we have the role of oppressors when it comes to the native american population of quebec in which there is a well deserved anti-quebec sentiment. Quebec solidaire and especially this party tries to clean off this bad relationship and start anew,create a nation which will actually respect their treaties. if they wish to create their own nation, we would respect it, oppressed people such as the first nations and quebec shouldn't fight each other, they should aim to struggle against the oppressor nation that wish to divide and conquer.

what happens when nationalism isn't used by the left ( which by the way, if you don't realize it, social-democrats are the left, even if a soft one) you get the duplessis, you get the racist ADQ, this is what happens when you do this ultra-leftist idiocy. it has been said over and over again, the most important part of our independance movement is to be known internationally and vote at the UN for example. the people of quebec are more to the left than the rest of canada, the people of quebec are very internationalist. independance means this country adds it's voice internationally instead of being drowned in liberal and conservative canada.

It's not my fault the French lost to the English. That's in the past. We are all Canadian now, regardless if your great great grand parents came from France, England, Portugal, Africa, China, or what have you.

I don't want to swear an oath to any Queen. But it just so happens that the Queen of Canada is the English Queen.

Quebec is a part of Canada. Ergo she is your Queen. You think again on ethnic lines and not from a socialist perspective of anti-monarchism.

As a Communist you should be against swearing allegiance to a monarch as a basis. Not be against swearing allegiance to a monarch because she isn't French.

I'm not a nationalist. I just know that the nationalists of Quebec have no real case. I know that all the Quebec nationalists, and Canadian nationalists, do is cause a divide in the working class and distraction from the struggle against capitalism.

Quebec being more left than the rest of Canada shouldn't be a point of separation, but a point of gathering support for radical left ideas. Quebec could very well be the beginning of a revolution in Canada, but NOT if sovereignty remains the number one issue for most.

[GreenCommunism]

Quebec is a part of Canada. Ergo she is your Queen. You think again on ethnic lines and not from a socialist perspective of anti-monarchism.

As a Communist you should be against swearing allegiance to a monarch as a basis. Not be against swearing allegiance to a monarch because she isn't French.

i'm not sure, is ethnicity being identification to a nation? the transition was far too quick for us to care about her as a queen. we no longer have to swear an oath to that monarch, the point is, for a long time they had to.

unlike what you say, in canada, you are quebecois or canadian or native. each group has different interests and the nation tries to keep those 3 groups satisfied.

i think we may disagree on this point, but i have the feeling that nationalism is there as a force, too many social-democrats including very charismatic ones fought for quebec independance, back in the 60s being a social-democrat was actually almost respectable. if the social-democrats would renounce independance many would vote to the right simply because it is such a strong part of quebec society. for many years the public debate has been about independance, it is now slowly calming down because they lost 2 referendum and the people feels beaten down and think what is the point to rebel, they have the money, they even have the military, will the united states let us do what we want?( the notorious pierre bourgault argued at that time that the united states has a large market in quebec so they would probably allow us to do as we please, i am not sure this is the case.)

almost everything the communist do is a distraction from fighting capitalism, they gain wage for workers, they fight cuts. this is to show the workers we are on their side and if they fight hard, they can win. it is the same thing with the independance movement, if we show our strong support for independance people will be interested in us, if we are to grow into a size that will strategically make some difference we will earn the respect of the people, they will listen to our message, because frankly, there are more canadian capitalist than quebecois capitalist per population. back in the 60s we were a breeding ground for socialist simply because we had a working class that was paid less for no other reason than being poor. we now have many capitalist but they are very new.

to be honest, i find that earlier communist from the 50-60s in canada were much more in favor of our self-determination, i have a read an author from that time who clearly stated we had a right to self-determination even though he believed that it would be possible for both nations to live well together, but he said, they have the right to choose otherwise, it has to be agreed upon, not forced.


The PCQ started as a faction within the Communist Party of Canada. Even if they have broken ties with the CPC they are still factionalist for dividing the party. A faction is an ideological break in a formerly unified ideology, regardless of parties. Technically the break between Anarchism and Communism can be classified as such, and I consider it that way.

there is something i forgot to address about the split, many members of the communist party of quebec who disagreed with independance also formed a group still loyal to the communist party of canada, why didn't they join our party for the sake of unity or to try to change the member's mind. as in agree to disagree while allowing debate without making a shitstorm all the time. i feel this could have been quite possible.

[Q]

there is something i forgot to address about the split, many members of the communist party of quebec who disagreed with independance also formed a group still loyal to the communist party of canada, why didn't they join our party for the sake of unity or to try to change the member's mind. as in agree to disagree while allowing debate without making a shitstorm all the time. i feel this could have been quite possible.

This does not compute for me. If you mourne the loss of those comrades, why did you split in the first place from the CPC? Why couldn't the pro-independence comrades "agree to disagree" as you say and form a principled faction to try and win a majority for your views?

[danyboy27]

quebec nationalism would, far from stimulating xenophobia, give us a strong state with which the quebecois people would stop feeling threatened by english cultural domination. it would stop xenophobia much more than it would fuel it. to be honest, it is a nationalism of the oppressed and you shouldn't let this nationalism be in the hand of the right. every time the right has been more nationalist than the social-democrat left there has been a large number of social-democrats voting to the right.
.
its already fueling a certain xenophobia, some of my relative who are independentists are litteraly in favor of kicking those english foreigner out of quebec beccause they dont speak french, and they are against foreigner going to english speaking school, and in favor of forcing them to speak french.

there are also strong anglophobia withing those movements too, i got relatives who where litteraly attacked by separatist beccause she was speaking english, some of their friend where assaulted in quebec city by those drunk french nationalist, they threw rock at her beccause she had a maple leaf logo on her backpack.

Bottom line, canadian worker and quebec workers have the same fucking interests, they want to be in control of their destiny, their job, their lives.

the only thing that is holding us back is that stupid bigoted nationalism that both side rich bourgeois promote.

we are more left than the rest of canada, and just for that we should have at heart the promotion of our idea, we should seek partnership and friendship, and abandon that stupid nationalist french supremacist attutide.

[GreenCommunism]

This does not compute for me. If you mourne the loss of those comrades, why did you split in the first place from the CPC? Why couldn't the pro-independence comrades "agree to disagree" as you say and form a principled faction to try and win a majority for your views?

the canadian section disagree with the quebec section, there seems to sadly be an ethnic basis to this, in my opinion it largely has to do with the difference in treatment in the media when it comes to this issue. the party leaders said they felt like they adopted a chauvinistic attitude, i will talk to them more precisely about the details but when canadian communist argue against independance instead of saying it's up to us to decide this is a bad start.


its already fueling a certain xenophobia, some of my relative who are independentists are litteraly in favor of kicking those english foreigner out of quebec beccause they dont speak french, and they are against foreigner going to english speaking school, and in favor of forcing them to speak french.

there are also strong anglophobia withing those movements too, i got relatives who where litteraly attacked by separatist beccause she was speaking english, some of their friend where assaulted in quebec city by those drunk french nationalist, they threw rock at her beccause she had a maple leaf logo on her backpack.

Bottom line, canadian worker and quebec workers have the same fucking interests, they want to be in control of their destiny, their job, their lives.

the only thing that is holding us back is that stupid bigoted nationalism that both side rich bourgeois promote.

we are more left than the rest of canada, and just for that we should have at heart the promotion of our idea, we should seek partnership and friendship, and abandon that stupid nationalist french supremacist attutide.

i've heard similar stories against french canadians, i have a question for you, do you think it really would be different without nationalism? do you honestly believe that the french-canadians would have the amount of opportunities they have right now if they didn't pressure the canadian bourgeoisie to gain more of the pie? oppression will fuel this just as much.


some of my relative who are independentists are litteraly in favor of kicking those english foreigner out of quebec beccause they dont speak french, and they are against foreigner going to english speaking school, and in favor of forcing them to speak french.

1. they are pretty fucking insane. 2. no country in the world doesn't 'force' the children of the immigrants to go to the school of the main language of said country, what if i want my children to go in a spanish first school in ontario, is that possible?


Bottom line, canadian worker and quebec workers have the same fucking interests, they want to be in control of their destiny, their job, their lives.

the only thing that is holding us back is that stupid bigoted nationalism that both side rich bourgeois promote.

we are more left than the rest of canada, and just for that we should have at heart the promotion of our idea, we should seek partnership and friendship, and abandon that stupid nationalist french supremacist attutide.

it is a strong force, and whether you like it or not, the right will abuse it if we don't make it a nationalism of the oppressed, it will become a xenophobic nationalism like the adq, which by the way doesn't want independance. if quebec was already separated, i think this racism would go down simply because quebecois would not feel threatened in their homeland.

yes there is alot of anglophobia in those movements, i felt it while being in rallies, that is why, like i said, there needs to be a strong leftist nationalist movement instead of a catch all nationalist movement that pretend to be social-democrat.

when i see french supremacism, i think you're joking, i think some people here said that racism from blacks against white cannot exactly be called racism as it is a response to the oppression they have faced. i disagree with this notion but to be honest, while i disagree with this stupid violence you speak of, calling an oppressed people racist is a joke. except when in reference to other people that they actually oppress such as the native americans, do i care about their anti-french sentiment or their nationalism? no because i clearly see that this isn't about denying our oppression but merely reacting to the one we caused them, like i said again, oppressed nation should not fight each other.

yes canadians and quebecois have the same fucking interests, however, remember that the proletariat in the whole world has the same fucking interest as the quebecois, why would we exclude canadians? pushing nationalism to the left is both strategically valid and right. since the fall of the soviet union, too many independance movement are moving to the right, we must counter this.

[danyboy27]

i've heard similar stories against french canadians, i have a question for you, do you think it really would be different without nationalism? do you honestly believe that the french-canadians would have the amount of opportunities they have right now if they didn't pressure the canadian bourgeoisie to gain more of the pie? oppression will fuel this just as much.
.
Racism and discrimination have Everything to do with nationalism, some fucked up french natinalist hate the english, and some fucked up canadian nationalist hate the french.

Personally, i dont see much difference between being exploited by english speaking people, or french speaking people.

dropping nationalism dosnt mean stop acting or being active politicly.





1. they are pretty fucking insane. 2. no country in the world doesn't 'force' the children of the immigrants to go to the school of the main language of said country, what if i want my children to go in a spanish first school in ontario, is that possible?
.
1. of course,they are quebec nationalist, what do you fucking expect!
2.its not beccause a lot of peoples in this world are nationalistic dickhead that we should be like them. all this outrage against bill 103 is pretty childish and stupid, i mean for all the shit happening in the world, bill 103, really??



it is a strong force, and whether you like it or not, the right will abuse it if we don't make it a nationalism of the oppressed, it will become a xenophobic nationalism like the adq, which by the way doesn't want independance. if quebec was already separated, i think this racism would go down simply because quebecois would not feel threatened in their homeland.
.
yea, we can see with the dismantling of the british empire in africa and the middle east that there is no persecution, killing or xenophobia at all in countries full of natural ressources and ridden with nationalism... hoo wait...

[Die Rote Fahne]

i'm not sure, is ethnicity being identification to a nation? the transition was far too quick for us to care about her as a queen. we no longer have to swear an oath to that monarch, the point is, for a long time they had to.

unlike what you say, in canada, you are quebecois or canadian or native. each group has different interests and the nation tries to keep those 3 groups satisfied.

i think we may disagree on this point, but i have the feeling that nationalism is there as a force, too many social-democrats including very charismatic ones fought for quebec independance, back in the 60s being a social-democrat was actually almost respectable. if the social-democrats would renounce independance many would vote to the right simply because it is such a strong part of quebec society. for many years the public debate has been about independance, it is now slowly calming down because they lost 2 referendum and the people feels beaten down and think what is the point to rebel, they have the money, they even have the military, will the united states let us do what we want?( the notorious pierre bourgault argued at that time that the united states has a large market in quebec so they would probably allow us to do as we please, i am not sure this is the case.)

almost everything the communist do is a distraction from fighting capitalism, they gain wage for workers, they fight cuts. this is to show the workers we are on their side and if they fight hard, they can win. it is the same thing with the independance movement, if we show our strong support for independance people will be interested in us, if we are to grow into a size that will strategically make some difference we will earn the respect of the people, they will listen to our message, because frankly, there are more canadian capitalist than quebecois capitalist per population. back in the 60s we were a breeding ground for socialist simply because we had a working class that was paid less for no other reason than being poor. we now have many capitalist but they are very new.

to be honest, i find that earlier communist from the 50-60s in canada were much more in favor of our self-determination, i have a read an author from that time who clearly stated we had a right to self-determination even though he believed that it would be possible for both nations to live well together, but he said, they have the right to choose otherwise, it has to be agreed upon, not forced.

Actually you are very wrong on "you are Canadian, Quebecois or Native". In Newfoundland I see a lot of anti-canadian sentiment at points, including the removal of all Canadian flags from government buildings in 2004 or 6 because of Federal government action. I know many natives who recognize as Canadians more so than as members of the First Nations. I know many Newfoundlanders who recognize as Newfoundlanders first.

Nationalism can be a force. And maybe it is in Quebec. But that doesn't make it a justifiable cause, or beneficial to class struggle.

The people are no more left than the rest of Canada. The divide is once again on the issue of sovereignty. The only party who is willing to fight for it, happens to be a social democratic party. If it were a Tea Party-esque nationalist party in Quebec, it's likely they would gain hold the power if the Bloc was not present.

Sovereignty is NOT in the interests of the working class of Quebec or anywhere else in Canada.

Fighting job cuts and fighting for wage increases IS fighting capitalism.

Regardless if you have the right or not, it distracts greatly from the true struggle of the working class and merely causes a divide between Anglo and Francophone workers.

[GreenCommunism]

Racism and discrimination have Everything to do with nationalism, some fucked up french natinalist hate the english, and some fucked up canadian nationalist hate the french.

Personally, i dont see much difference between being exploited by english speaking people, or french speaking people.

dropping nationalism dosnt mean stop acting or being active politicly.


oh, damn i miswrote what i meant :). i meant without the independance movement, would nationalism die out and such events not happen?

1. of course,they are quebec nationalist, what do you fucking expect!
2.its not beccause a lot of peoples in this world are nationalistic dickhead that we should be like them. all this outrage against bill 103 is pretty childish and stupid, i mean for all the shit happening in the world, bill 103, really??

yes the world has priority over the bill 103, why can't we be outraged at both, i don't even have a slight idea what is the bill 103 all i know is people are pissed about it. who is being a nationalist dickhead, i want immigrants in my country to be able to integrate more easily, natives where i come from have a hard time finding a job because most of them decide to go to an english school just close to the border. by opposing the bill 103 we are showing the quebec working class that we support their demand for self-determination and preserving the french language in quebec. we are a majority in quebec, it's not about forced assimilation, it is about a lingua franca that is shared in the nation, to help citizens blend in and ask for food. we have english as a second language, while it may not be perfect a large pourcentage of quebecois are bilingual, in fact, you know very well we are forced to some extent to know it in order to be promoted or get a better job.


Personally, i dont see much difference between being exploited by english speaking people, or french speaking people.

i don't see the difference either, except i think in this globalizing world i am being exploited by united state and european capital much more than by canadian capital, so it isn't about being paranoid of canadian capital.

Edit: after reading about the bill 103, i still cannot swallow that everyone seems to assume our school cannot teach fluent english, if anything those who request it should have extra class in the english language.

[GreenCommunism]

Actually you are very wrong on "you are Canadian, Quebecois or Native". In Newfoundland I see a lot of anti-canadian sentiment at points, including the removal of all Canadian flags from government buildings in 2004 or 6 and replacing them with Newfoundland Republic flags because of Federal government action. I know many natives who recognize as Canadians more so than as members of the First Nations. I know many Newfoundlanders who recognize as Newfoundlanders first.

Nationalism can be a force. And maybe it is in Quebec. But that doesn't make it a justifiable cause, or beneficial to class struggle.

The people are no more left than the rest of Canada. The divide is once again on the issue of sovereignty. The only party who is willing to fight for it, happens to be a social democratic party. If it were a Tea Party-esque nationalist party in Quebec, it's likely they would gain hold the power if the Bloc was not present.

Sovereignty is NOT in the interests of the working class of Quebec or anywhere else in Canada.

Fighting job cuts and fighting for wage increases IS fighting capitalism.

Regardless if you have the right or not, it distracts greatly from the true struggle of the working class and merely causes a divide between Anglo and Francophone workers.
yes i forgot the newfoundland and other nations, it is mentioned in our program too.
why was the party social-democrat in the first place, the independance movement was much stronger to the left back then, the 2 parties arguing for independance are social-democrat, is that a coincidence?


yea, we can see with the dismantling of the british empire in africa and the middle east that there is no persecution, killing or xenophobia at all in countries full of natural ressources and ridden with nationalism... hoo wait...
quebec is different, are you arguing about anti-white racism in africa? it is clear that whites hold a large amount of the wealth in those countries. there won't be a civil war in quebec, if anything losing 2 referendum to what we perceive as corruption fuels xenophobia, why did those countries obtain independance? was it for cultural protection such as language etc? if there is an economic reason for the independance of quebec then it is to protect workers from companies abroad, i have no illusion that we will sell out our ressources the same way and that is why we socialist won't stop after independance. it was a struggle for liberation in africa and the middle east, do you think it was a bad thing for those countries to obtain independance?

[danyboy27]

oh, damn i miswrote what i meant :). i meant without the independance movement, would nationalism die out and such events not happen?

not, it would not necessarly die.
why does it even matter?




yes the world has priority over the bill 103, why can't we be outraged at both, i don't even have a slight idea what is the bill 103 all i know is people are pissed about it. who is being a nationalist dickhead, i want immigrants in my country to be able to integrate more easily, natives where i come from have a hard time finding a job because most of them decide to go to an english school just close to the border. by opposing the bill 103 we are showing the quebec working class that we support their demand for self-determination and preserving the french language in quebec. we are a majority in quebec, it's not about forced assimilation, it is about a lingua franca that is shared in the nation, to help citizens blend in and ask for food. we have english as a second language, while it may not be perfect a large pourcentage of quebecois are bilingual, in fact, you know very well we are forced to some extent to know it in order to be promoted or get a better job.

the problem of integration is almost entierely a montreal issue, english speaking migrant come to montreal beccause its an international city where the language spoken by most people is english. French speaking migrant tend to move in the other part of Quebec beccause they know the general population there speak french.

If nationalists are so pissed about Montreal ''loosing its identity'' they have a wide choice of place where to go to find their ''french identity'' again.

what montreal experience is nothing new from what Toronto or other big city experience;the loss of their original, regional identity for a more international one beccause of the flux of different cultures.

You cant reverse it back, what is done cant be changed in that case.




i don't see the difference either, except i think in this globalizing world i am being exploited by united state and european capital much more than by canadian capital, so it isn't about being paranoid of canadian capital.
.
you should not understimate how exploited you are by your nationalist friends. Most of the people of the bloc québecois and the partie québecois are fervent capitalist, and their interest into having a country is dirrectly link with the number of dollar they will make out of it.



Edit: after reading about the bill 103, i still cannot swallow that everyone seems to assume our school cannot teach fluent english, if anything those who request it should have extra class in the english language.
well, our school dosnt teach fluent english, a LOT of people who are going to universities can barely formulate a verry simple sentence, my gf have studied in biology and a significant number of students where unable to complete the course beccause they where unable to read the manual who where written in english, beccause hey, that the language most of biologist and other scientists use.

i know only a handful of people who are OK in english, and they all have been to the same educational system than me.

the only reason why i have a better english than them is beccause i decided to learn it by myself at school, the teacher was just too incompetent to properly teach it. i know, my english suck! but at least its functionnal.

and dont talk to your nationalist buddies about learning english at pre-school, they will accuse you of being an evil federalist who want to pervert our youth with this filthy language.

[GreenCommunism]

not, it would not necessarly die.
why does it even matter?
i don't think it fuels xenophobia, i think there would be just as much whether there is a debate or not.


what montreal experience is nothing new from what Toronto or other big city experience;the loss of their original, regional identity for a more international one beccause of the flux of different cultures.

i really doubt toronto has the same problem, to be honest english is an international language, by the way, i like melting pot and different culture ,it makes people interesting.


you should not understimate how exploited you are by your nationalist friends. Most of the people of the bloc québecois and the partie québecois are fervent capitalist, and their interest into having a country is dirrectly link with the number of dollar they will make out of it.

who says i like the bloc who support the afghan war, who says i like the fake parti quebecois which only has an interesting legacy and nothing else.

well, our school dosnt teach fluent english, a LOT of people who are going to universities can barely formulate a verry simple sentence, my gf have studied in biology and a significant number of students where unable to complete the course beccause they where unable to read the manual who where written in english, beccause hey, that the language most of biologist and other scientists use.

i know only a handful of people who are OK in english, and they all have been to the same educational system than me.

the only reason why i have a better english than them is beccause i decided to learn it by myself at school, the teacher was just too incompetent to properly teach it. i know, my english suck! but at least its functionnal.

and dont talk to your nationalist buddies about learning english at pre-school, they will accuse you of being an evil federalist who want to pervert our youth with this filthy language.

well this is a problem, are they supposed to learn to speak both language perfectly? what about english speakers from canada, are they supposed to be fluent in both too? yes i think that those who aim for the university should be speaking a good english. but i also think that to some extent, we have the right to work in our language in quebec, at least use terms that are french especially for mecanics. lave-glace, not winshie-washer.

as for my nationalist buddies, who says i have non-socialist nationalist buddies? i have one childhood friend who is a nationalist and is overall interested in philosophical discussions but politics as a whole isn't his cup of tea. i do hear some anti-english things from him here and there but nothing too crazy, more like stereotypes such as not being able to drink responsibly. nobody ever suggested deportation.

[danyboy27]

i don't think it fuels xenophobia, i think there would be just as much whether there is a debate or not.
.
i hope you have more fact than this to back up your argumentation on the subject.



i really doubt toronto has the same problem, to be honest english is an international language, by the way, i like melting pot and different culture ,it makes people interesting.


well, you should definitively travel more! I personally dont travel much but some of my friend does, and in some street of winnipeg and ontario, communicate in english is borderline impossible, lot of chinese, spanish and pakistani have their own sector of the city.




who says i like the bloc who support the afghan war, who says i like the fake parti quebecois which only has an interesting legacy and nothing else.

well, there isnt much choice isnt? hoo yea you got Quebec solidaire, i read their political program, it look like a deformed version of the green party program and i dont see anywhere any credible reform that would really benefit to the working class in it. Sure there are SOME progressive stuff in it, and the size of the governement is more likely to triple, but for so much effort into making the monster bigger, verry fews efforts are made to make the state a more democratic or decentralized structure. hoo and i forgot, stupid french nationalism in it.



i
well this is a problem, are they supposed to learn to speak both language perfectly? what about english speakers from canada, are they supposed to be fluent in both too? yes i think that those who aim for the university should be speaking a good english. but i also think that to some extent, we have the right to work in our language in quebec, at least use terms that are french especially for mecanics. lave-glace, not winshie-washer.

for an isolated place like Quebec, speaking a Perfect english should be our top priority to be heard and communicate with the fucking outside world.
You said it before, its a fucking international language, and if city become even more international like Quebec, talking english will be crucial.
getting stuck in our language leave us at the mercy of the local capitalists, Quebecor Media, Genex communication, all those fucker can spoonfeed us bullshit and use our langage limitation at their fucking advantage beccause of the berlin wall of bill 101.
Hoo and about the use of english word at work, give me a break, NOBODY use the french term in computer maintenance or car maintenance or dish washing maintenance, Not even the french who emigrated from france.
Why? its the fucking international language! do you know how complicated this is to phone in China to get a freaking spare part and communicate with someone who speak french and actually know what he is talking about?
It dosnt work, beccause all the good guy who know something about the part you need have a english has a second language. do you think this is some sort of evil conspiracy to opress the french? NO, they speak english beccause its the damn international language, its practical to know it, even barely.



as for my nationalist buddies, who says i have non-socialist nationalist buddies? i have one childhood friend who is a nationalist and is overall interested in philosophical discussions but politics as a whole isn't his cup of tea. i do hear some anti-english things from him here and there but nothing too crazy, more like stereotypes such as not being able to drink responsibly. nobody ever suggested deportation.

here, have a healthy dose of Quebec nationalism, hope you like it.
http://www.resistancequebecoise.org
http://www.milice.qc.ca/



this is one of many

[GreenCommunism]

i hope you have more fact than this to back up your argumentation on the subject.
should i come up with hate crime statistics? you didn't back up your argumentation either.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11233-eng.htm#a5
there is so few hate crime between whites compared to those against blacks. also andré boisclair sparked the new hope for a referendum from 2005 to 2007 and hate crimes even went down then sparked up in 2008. why? most certainly because of the idiotic reasonable accomodation debate which started in 2007 and ended in the first half of 2008, this is the kind of nationalism that occurs when the hope for independance is gone, there seems to be 2 type of master at home propaganda, independance and internationalism, or autonomy and religious,cultural scapegoating, assimilationism. clearly the racism in quebec is directed against black, jews and muslims. not the englishmen.


well, there isnt much choice isnt? hoo yea you got Quebec solidaire, i read their political program, it look like a deformed version of the green party program and i dont see anywhere any credible reform that would really benefit to the working class in it. Sure there are SOME progressive stuff in it, and the size of the governement is more likely to triple, but for so much effort into making the monster bigger, verry fews efforts are made to make the state a more democratic or decentralized structure. hoo and i forgot, stupid french nationalism in it.

i'm not impressed by their programs too especially since there is so little about the economy in it, however, you should read their document in reaction to the economic crisis we have right now. it's written black and white that you cannot REFORM capitalism, that you ought to go after it. which is like what many authors said, capitalism is doomed, but nobody dares saying socialism. their next congress might be interesting as there are many socialist parties in it.

they are against privatisation of the healthcare system
create pharma-quebec to negociate prices and make generic medecine themself.
raising minimum wage
pressure the government to construct 50 000 social housing (HLM)
increase tax on corporations
free post-secondary education
look for alternatives to putting people in jail, aka prevention
fighting for a better public transport system

if you hoped for a clear statement in favor of the redistribution of the means of production you might be deceived, but just look at the number of orgs within it that are in favor of redistribution, they have an influence since they are active militant who can and will state their opinion at each congress as opposed to simple members.


do you think this is some sort of evil conspiracy to opress the french? NO, they speak english beccause its the damn international language, its practical to know it, even barely.[QUOTE]

it's not a fucking conspiracy, but yes it is the result of the oppression of the french. do you think our language would be in this sorry state if we didn't go through colonization and limitation of our rights for 200 years? all of israel learned hebrew and we can do exactly the same.

[QUOTE]for an isolated place like Quebec, speaking a Perfect english should be our top priority to be heard and communicate with the fucking outside world.

we should have a shitty french but a perfect english according to you. speaking english is speaking the language of the world dominating civilisation on this planet. sure we must speak english for our own good and advancement in the world, but deep down i would naively much rather have esperanto as an international language than choosing a language who's only reason for being international is imperialism.

as for china, i might be wrong but i was under the impression that chinese actually learn french alot, and they speak a good french. the problem is not that they don't speak french, it is that we suck at it and that colonialism destroyed to some extent our ability communicate with other french speakers.


here, have a healthy dose of Quebec nationalism, hope you like it.
http://www.resistancequebecoise.org
http://www.milice.qc.ca/



this is one of many

can you tell me the other ones? i already know the RR and i haven't found anything that was wrong with it yet. so far i have heard that they were accused of stimulating violence at some point, an accusation that some people told me was bullshit.

as for the MPQ, omg, militia? guerilla warfare? the local maoist from the PCR will be jealous. i'm not crazy enough to argue that this should be the way to obtain independance, yet they also argue that this is for defense not offense. but what is the big deal with a milicia ( are those even legal? we are not in the united states.)

i can find you better racist parties. but here is a leftist and nationalist press.

http://www.pressegauche.org/

as for the leftist and nationalist orgs we have already talked about many here. i will admit that we don't have a leftist and nationalist militia in quebec as far as i know. but i don't think it really matters.

[black magick hustla]

quebecois separatism is fueled by pure nationalism. at the very least the neocolonies have the argument of fuckin imperialism but quebec is a first world state that is part of a first. world country

[GreenCommunism]

just like ireland.

don't be such a third-worldist, even if i agree with them alot.

quebec independance is social justice. i can burn a canadian flag and it would not be racism just like a native american can burn a quebecois flag and it would not be racism. what is your threshold of oppression before a people can call itself oppressed ? i am sure that we are within it.

[danyboy27]

should i come up with hate crime statistics? you didn't back up your argumentation either.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11233-eng.htm#a5
there is so few hate crime between whites compared to those against blacks. also andré boisclair sparked the new hope for a referendum from 2005 to 2007 and hate crimes even went down then sparked up in 2008. why? most certainly because of the idiotic reasonable accomodation debate which started in 2007 and ended in the first half of 2008, this is the kind of nationalism that occurs when the hope for independance is gone, there seems to be 2 type of master at home propaganda, independance and internationalism, or autonomy and religious,cultural scapegoating, assimilationism. clearly the racism in quebec is directed against black, jews and muslims. not the englishmen.

FYI, a lot of those immigrant are englishmen, you know, beccause you can have a darker skin and speak english...just so you know.
anti-immigrant feeling in Quebec or in the rest of the canada is always the dirrect cause of nationalism, for the rest of canada, its english nationalism, and Quebec, its french nationalism.

a separation with the canada wont change a damn thing about that. there will still have fucking bigots who will be angry at the immigrant beccause they dont properly talk french.

Of course the reasonable accomodation debate fueled hate crime, it would have done it even if we would have been separated from canada, nationalism wont disapear beccause we get out of canada.



i'm not impressed by their programs too especially since there is so little about the economy in it, however, you should read their document in reaction to the economic crisis we have right now. it's written black and white that you cannot REFORM capitalism, that you ought to go after it. which is like what many authors said, capitalism is doomed, but nobody dares saying socialism. their next congress might be interesting as there are many socialist parties in it.

they are against privatisation of the healthcare system
create pharma-quebec to negociate prices and make generic medecine themself.
raising minimum wage
pressure the government to construct 50 000 social housing (HLM)
increase tax on corporations
free post-secondary education
look for alternatives to putting people in jail, aka prevention
fighting for a better public transport system
.
I read their program and there is not much concrete action to bring the working class to Quebec solidaire.

people want Modernisation of the public healthcare System, reduction of the size of the bureaucracy, revitalisation of the industry, democratic control of their job and of the governement, and sadly Quebec solidaire fail to deliver in these field.

plus, their real life action are often not consistent with the program they fucking wrote, take for exemple their action about the Uranium mines, they where cathegoricly against it, same for those natural gas pipeline project, all against them, but if you look in their program they say we should look up wich ressources we should nationalise!





we should have a shitty french but a perfect english according to you. speaking english is speaking the language of the world dominating civilisation on this planet. sure we must speak english for our own good and advancement in the world, but deep down i would naively much rather have esperanto as an international language than choosing a language who's only reason for being international is imperialism.

i never said that, stop deforming my words, i said that we should know english a minimum to be open to the world, i never said nothing about us not learning french.

Yes, imperialism is the reason why so much people speak english, can you undo it? no, but you can use it against imperialism and for internationalism.

i am a practical man, maybe you arnt.





as for china, i might be wrong but i was under the impression that chinese actually learn french alot, and they speak a good french. the problem is not that they don't speak french, it is that we suck at it and that colonialism destroyed to some extent our ability communicate with other french speakers.

WTF? its not the damn issue! haa again more victimisation, this is getting tiresome.

every time at my job or in my daily life me and my buddies tried to communicate with people from other countries to either help them or to have technical service, it was much easier to use english than french.

Maybe some fancy bourgeois chinese who own a factory in china take classy french lessons to be able to make deal with our fellow bourgeois, but their working class talk chinese and english.



http://www.pressegauche.org/

this is sad and terrible. a lot of the content is about ''defending french language'', very few constructive content, they mostly criticize what currently happening and bring verry few alternative, this is then again typical from the quebec nationalists.

this is beccause stuff like that that people turn away and vote for groups like the ADQ.

and if you think that beccause the ADQ is in bad shape, the right have lost the fight in quebec, you couldnt be more wrong.

[GreenCommunism]

FYI, a lot of those immigrant are englishmen, you know, beccause you can have a darker skin and speak english...just so you know.
anti-immigrant feeling in Quebec or in the rest of the canada is always the dirrect cause of nationalism, for the rest of canada, its english nationalism, and Quebec, its french nationalism.

a separation with the canada wont change a damn thing about that. there will still have fucking bigots who will be angry at the immigrant beccause they dont properly talk french.

Of course the reasonable accomodation debate fueled hate crime, it would have done it even if we would have been separated from canada, nationalism wont disapear beccause we get out of canada.


Historian and sociologist Gérard Bouchard, co-chair of the Bouchard-Taylor Commission, has suggested that the francophones of Quebec or French Canadian descent continue to consider themselves a fragile and colonized minority, despite forming the majority of the population of Quebec, and thus have found it difficult to accept other ethnic groups as also being Quebecers. He sees this as showing the need for an independent Quebec with a "founding myth" based upon "un acte fondateur" which would give the Québécois the confidence to act more generously to incorporate all willing ethnic communities in Quebec into a unified whole.

I read their program and there is not much concrete action to bring the working class to Quebec solidaire.

people want Modernisation of the public healthcare System, reduction of the size of the bureaucracy, revitalisation of the industry, democratic control of their job and of the governement, and sadly Quebec solidaire fail to deliver in these field.

plus, their real life action are often not consistent with the program they fucking wrote, take for exemple their action about the Uranium mines, they where cathegoricly against it, same for those natural gas pipeline project, all against them, but if you look in their program they say should look up wich ressources we should nationalise!

ressources you nationalise mean thats the one you get complete control over .do you hate the environment by the way? those issues you are talking about are those that a communist government would aggresively take care of. you expect a miracle out of a frigging social-democrat party. as for more democracy all i know is they want proportional representation which of course would benefit them alot. we just had a draft document about workplace democracy in the PCQ that we will debate and adopt at the next congress.


i never said that, stop deforming my words, i said that we should know english a minimum to be open to the world, i never said nothing about us not learning french.

Yes, imperialism is the reason why so much people speak english, can you undo it? no, but you can use it against imperialism and for internationalism.

i am a practical man, maybe you arnt.

you should tell the native americans to lose their language in order to fight imperialism and for internationalism. my main problem with learning english in high school is that there is no special course for those who want to be really good at it, for instance, me.


WTF? its not the damn issue! haa again more victimisation, this is getting tiresome.

every time at my job or in my daily life me and my buddies tried to communicate with people from other countries to either help them or to have technical service, it was much easier to use english than french.

Maybe some fancy bourgeois chinese who own a factory in china take classy french lessons to be able to make deal with our fellow bourgeois, but their working class talk chinese and english.

what victimisation, i was under the impression that around 8-9 million chinese speak french, of course this is very little compared to a freaking billion, but it is there. it still doesn't matter, i can speak both very well.


this is sad and terrible. a lot of the content is about ''defending french language'', very few constructive content, they mostly criticize what currently happening and bring verry few alternative, this is then again typical from the quebec nationalists.

this is beccause stuff like that that people turn away and vote for groups like the ADQ.

and if you think that beccause the ADQ is in bad shape, the right have lost the fight in quebec, you couldnt be more wrong.

they have not lost the fight, andré boisclair said that unemployment rates for immigrants was a shitload more important than reasonable accomodation and he lost the election for that, because the ADQ was more nationalist and defender of so-called quebec identity. andré boisclair is one of the most neo-liberal PQ guy but at least he had the courage to say the exact truth about this society at the moment where all this bullshit was going on and he lost his political career because of it.

it is in bad shape because of the cult of personality around mario dumont and now he left. why the hell would anyone go and turn to the adq, don't you get it? the fake social-democrats are defending language, the adq is assimilationist and xenophobique, defending language is not their priority. they are more scared of those weird immigrants with their different customs than them speaking another language.


CHARTE DE LA LANGUE FRANÇAISE : ALLOCUTION DE FRANÇOISE DAVID:
[...]Le français, doit devenir la langue de tous les Québécois, de toutes les Québécoises. C'est la langue de Gaston Miron, de Gabrielle Roy, de Michel Tremblay, mais aussi, celle d'Amir Khadir, de Kim Nguyen, de Wajdi Mouawad. Notre combat commun pour la survie et le développement du français au Québec, c'est celui de la diversité culturelle face à l'omniprésence de l'anglais dans le monde comme langue des affaires, comme outil privilégié des puissants. C'est un combat pour la justice, pour le droit des nations à leur épanouissement, c'est, au Québec, notre combat pour l'indépendance, seul outil véritable de notre affranchissement.[...]

[danyboy27]

ressources you nationalise mean thats the one you get complete control over .do you hate the environment by the way? those issues you are talking about are those that a communist government would aggresively take care of. you expect a miracle out of a frigging social-democrat party. as for more democracy all i know is they want proportional representation which of course would benefit them alot. we just had a draft document about workplace democracy in the PCQ that we will debate and adopt at the next congress.
.
i dont hate the environnement, but the well being of the worker will in my mind always prevail over the environnement. i am not saying that we should pollute more, but right now our environnemental standard are more than okay, and instead of wasting time and effort on those issue, we should revitalize our industries who are crumbling, thousand of people losing their job in the forest and manifacturing industires, we used to be a industrial powerhouse, people had job they could be proud of.
that the fucking issue for the working class, jobs and their control over it.



you should tell the native americans to lose their language in order to fight imperialism and for internationalism. my main problem with learning english in high school is that there is no special course for those who want to be really good at it, for instance, me.
.
they didnt lose their language beccause of it, but beccause we made school and forced them in, we forced them to change their family name and language, we displaced them, stole their land, that how they lost their language and culture.

Compared to the indians, we had it easy, the english back in the day let us keep our custom and religion, that why we speak french today.



what victimisation, i was under the impression that around 8-9 million chinese speak french, of course this is very little compared to a freaking billion, but it is there. it still doesn't matter, i can speak both very well.

yea strangely the number of french speaking people fit with the ratio of chinese bourgeois.
the chinese working class speak english and chinese, enuf said.



they have not lost the fight, andré boisclair said that unemployment rates for immigrants was a shitload more important than reasonable accomodation and he lost the election for that, because the ADQ was more nationalist and defender of so-called quebec identity. andré boisclair is one of the most neo-liberal PQ guy but at least he had the courage to say the exact truth about this society at the moment where all this bullshit was going on and he lost his political career because of it.

Andree boisclair lost beccause he was gay and did coke back in the day, that what cost him the election.
a lot of old nationalists hated him beccause that what old nationalist do; they dont like gay and people who do drugs.
Hell, there was a continuous struggle inside the PQ itself to remove the guy.



it is in bad shape because of the cult of personality around mario dumont and now he left. why the hell would anyone go and turn to the adq, don't you get it? the fake social-democrats are defending language, the adq is assimilationist and xenophobique, defending language is not their priority. they are more scared of those weird immigrants with their different customs than them speaking another language.

its in bad shape beccause has an opposition party they sucked ass, and also beccause the PQ and the Liberal worked out real hard to make them look like idiot.
why would the liberal and the PQ work together to shun the ADQ? well, that pretty simple, while the liberal and PQ had a policy that favor a certain number of apparatchik and corporations, the ADQ had has their main goal to favor other kind of apparatchik and corporations, to protect their common interrest, the PQ and PLQ worked together against the ADQ.

while some member of the ADQ are Xenophobic, if you read their programs, they have no real big Xenophobic project, or at least, no more than the PLQ of the PQ in those fields.

there is a need for a poltitical party like the ADQ beccause no political Party in Quebec have adressed the issue of the working class, it have nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with the working class.

The left failed the working class, and has long it will do just that, we will have a mass movement for the ADQ.

[GreenCommunism]

i dont hate the environnement, but the well being of the worker will in my mind always prevail over the environnement. i am not saying that we should pollute more, but right now our environnemental standard are more than okay, and instead of wasting time and effort on those issue, we should revitalize our industries who are crumbling, thousand of people losing their job in the forest and manifacturing industires, we used to be a industrial powerhouse, people had job they could be proud of.
that the fucking issue for the working class, jobs and their control over it.

does the working class not care about the environment? i'm for decroissance anyway, to be honest how can you want proletarian internationalism, we can't have our means of life everywhere on the planet.


they didnt lose their language beccause of it, but beccause we made school and forced them in, we forced them to change their family name and language, we displaced them, stole their land, that how they lost their language and culture.

Compared to the indians, we had it easy, the english back in the day let us keep our custom and religion, that why we speak french today.

we were conquered by that time, but yes we have our part to play in it. would you allow them to learn their language back? more than half of native americans do not speak their language, why wouldn't your idea of internationalism not be the best for the poorest population in canada. by the way, i absolutly acknowledge that we had it very good compared to the indians. in fact they couldn't vote until 1960s.


yea strangely the number of french speaking people fit with the ratio of chinese bourgeois.
the chinese working class speak english and chinese, enuf said.

they can learn other languages too, is everyone who went to university and learned spanish in america a bourgeois?

Andree boisclair lost beccause he was gay and did coke back in the day, that what cost him the election.
a lot of old nationalists hated him beccause that what old nationalist do; they dont like gay and people who do drugs.
Hell, there was a continuous struggle inside the PQ itself to remove the guy.

old people maybe, even if that would be ageism, as for old nationalist, Pierre Bourgault and his followers wouldn't hate a gay guy doing coke, they were true social-democrats, they defended the youth and oppressed minorities at many occasions. albeit i'm not sure about the coke. Pierre Bourgault is an homosexual himself, insane that old nationalists admired an homosexual?

its in bad shape beccause has an opposition party they sucked ass, and also beccause the PQ and the Liberal worked out real hard to make them look like idiot.
why would the liberal and the PQ work together to shun the ADQ? well, that pretty simple, while the liberal and PQ had a policy that favor a certain number of apparatchik and corporations, the ADQ had has their main goal to favor other kind of apparatchik and corporations, to protect their common interrest, the PQ and PLQ worked together against the ADQ.

while some member of the ADQ are Xenophobic, if you read their programs, they have no real big Xenophobic project, or at least, no more than the PLQ of the PQ in those fields.

there is a need for a poltitical party like the ADQ beccause no political Party in Quebec have adressed the issue of the working class, it have nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with the working class.

The left failed the working class, and has long it will do just that, we will have a mass movement for the ADQ.

every political party will fail the working class unless it is a communist party, it is dogmatic to say so, quebec solidaire remains our only chance to keep policy at least remotely in favor of the working class while we can show the limits of social-democracy to it's proponents.

there is also many talk about workplace democracy apparently, so it is a space where we can talk about our ideas and socialism. socialist issues are discussed and it would be insane to miss any opportunity to talk about it.

[Soseloshvili]

every political party will fail the working class unless it is a communist party, it is dogmatic to say so, quebec solidaire remains our only chance to keep policy at least remotely in favor of the working class while we can show the limits of social-democracy to it's proponents.

there is also many talk about workplace democracy apparently, so it is a space where we can talk about our ideas and socialism. socialist issues are discussed and it would be insane to miss any opportunity to talk about it.

What about the Parti Communiste du Quebec (Marxiste-Leniniste)? Or the remaining Quebec branch of the CPC, the CPC-PCQ? How about all the International branches in Quebec, or other smaller Communist groups operating out of Quebec? Why must they be abandoned, and Quebec Solidaire preserved?

I say we unify them all for better or for worse. This Factionalist crap has gone on long enough.

[GreenCommunism]

wish it was possible, however the PCQML didn't want to be with the ufp which merged with quebec solidaire, the remaining branch of the PCC-PCQ is the result of the split and both party are still bitter about it, i wonder what kind of compromise could exist, but would both section sabotage each other?. i don't know much other communist groups that operates in quebec except the other trotskyist. and there would be constant bickering between the stalinist,maoist and trotskyist. our party has some sort of compromise that allows civil discussion but consider the trotsky-stalin debate to be sterile and useless to the cause. some members actually left because they were tired of the pointless bickering between trotskyists and maoists. our organisation is not sectarian, ( some have told me it was but i have no evidence that this is true) but following this logic, members are asked not to be sectarian as well.

like the pcq said at some point, there are constant calls for the unity of the left, however, this unity usually doesn't extend to free movement of activists within those orgs, for a real left unity there would need to be an attitude of free discussions and allowing activists to freely change from one orgs to another depending on the viewpoint they take. there would be the need for all to follow democratic centralism including the smaller orgs who may feel threatened by such a merger. the organisation should be a club for communist which stick together when they collectively make a decision but would still have seperate orgs who function as clubs of different opinions.

this in my opinion, is a hard dream to make reality, but i would support it.

[ellipsis]

interesting I wrote my thesis on the FLQ, so thanks for letting us know about this party.

[ellipsis]

Oppressed? Don't make me fucking laugh. The Palestinians are oppressed.

Currently oppressed is debatable. Historically repressed is undeniable. How well do you know the histories of Canada(ontario) and New France(Québec)? Because the outcome of the battle of the plains of Abraham was that les Quebecoises formed a underclass that was oppressed, especially culturally in a manner similar to indigneous peoples that were colonized by the Spanish.

Modern day Quebecois soveriegnty is a bit more tricky, I am inclined to support in but have more reservations.

[Orange Juche]

You should go more in depth with what you're all aboot, eh!

[Soseloshvili]

Currently oppressed is debatable. Historically repressed is undeniable. How well do you know the histories of Canada(ontario) and New France(Québec)? Because the outcome of the battle of the plains of Abraham was that les Quebecoises formed a underclass that was oppressed, especially culturally in a manner similar to indigneous peoples that were colonized by the Spanish.

Modern day Quebecois soveriegnty is a bit more tricky, I am inclined to support in but have more reservations.

As someone who has spent his whole life in this country and studied its history religiously, you have no idea what you're talking about. To some degree throughout earlier history there has been a tad of oppression, but nothing comparable to any sort of thing that we would deem requiring emancipation from the rest of Canada. For example:



the Quebecois were actually given free range of British North America to settle where they saw fit (the city I live in was founded by the French) and actually legally governed all British crown land north of the 13 colonies, under the Quebec Act, 1774.
the Quebecois were given permission to use their laws (French Civil Law) instead of the English Common Law system
the Quebecois were given permission not only to practice the Catholic faith but to spread it, the only Christian missionaries in this country for many years were Jesuits.
the Quebecois were allowed to use the same French land distribution system they had always used.

Those are just historical. There have been no cases of extreme repression historically, unless you can count the suppression of the riots over Conscription or the suppression of the Patriot revolts (which you can't, both of those things happened outside Quebec and were suppressed as well).

This isn't to mention that we've gone out of our way for the French language (anglophones learn more French than francophones learn English in schools now, I can tell you that having spoken to Quebecois about the subject) and that the Quebecois were actually a guiding force in the push for confederation.

Please, don't believe this. These Quebecois separatists are extremely Nationalist, not all but most of them. It's a sad state of affairs, actually, Quebec Separatism basically destroyed the labour left in this country.

[GreenCommunism]

You should go more in depth with what you're all aboot, eh!

be more precise.

As someone who has spent his whole life in this country and studied its history religiously, you have no idea what you're talking about. To some degree throughout earlier history there has been a tad of oppression, but nothing comparable to any sort of thing that we would deem requiring emancipation from the rest of Canada. For example:

the Quebecois were actually given free range of British North America to settle where they saw fit (the city I live in was founded by the French) and actually legally governed all British crown land north of the 13 colonies, under the Quebec Act, 1774.
the Quebecois were given permission to use their laws (French Civil Law) instead of the English Common Law system
the Quebecois were given permission not only to practice the Catholic faith but to spread it, the only Christian missionaries in this country for many years were Jesuits.
the Quebecois were allowed to use the same French land distribution system they had always used.
Those are just historical. There have been no cases of extreme repression historically, unless you can count the suppression of the riots over Conscription or the suppression of the Patriot revolts (which you can't, both of those things happened outside Quebec and were suppressed as well).

This isn't to mention that we've gone out of our way for the French language (anglophones learn more French than francophones learn English in schools now, I can tell you that having spoken to Quebecois about the subject) and that the Quebecois were actually a guiding force in the push for confederation.

Please, don't believe this. These Quebecois separatists are extremely Nationalist, not all but most of them. It's a sad state of affairs, actually, Quebec Separatism basically destroyed the labour left in this country.

i don't like the way you use tad, as if we had any democracy when the confederation existed, ontario and quebec had equal rights but always elected a few englishmen in quebec and no frenchmen in ontario, we were unequal in population as quebec had more, then when ontario had more population suddenly they change the rules of the game so they rule canada. we never were master in our own home, this is bullshit.

why the hell would there be repression without a revolt, the 1837 revolt was about giving democracy to the people and that included 1 person 1 vote as a rule, this would have meant the independance of quebec no matter what. and i don't know in what country you live in, but the united states was created as a confederation and we all know what happened, quebec won the referendum and lost it to corruption and other illegal manoeuvers. quebec had more people historically and thus should have ruled canada but it never happened. Canada is not a confederation, it is a centralized government.

every oppressed people has elements in it that are extremely nationalist. and by using the word extremely nationalist i am a bit insulted, are you refering to ultra-nationalism? xenophobia,racism and separating our nation from the rest of the world? you clearly have no idea what the quebecois separatist are, they think of themselves as equal to other oppressed people and understand that these other oppressed people support them just like we do, the RRQ that danyboy think are a bunch of nutcase openly support the palestinians,the basque,haiti etc.

why do people from the united states support us and english canadians are so opposed to us? could it be they think they must choose instead of us what we want for our own nation, that is not chauvinism? 1950s communist did not care about preventing quebecois from obtaining independance, not at all. why do they care nowdays? because they are nationalist and anti-american influence, just like we are nationalist. so the nationalist accusation is bullshit. we are both guilty.

by the way, everybody in quebec is a nationalist, the difference between them is being a separatist or a federalist.

[GreenCommunism]

As someone who has spent his whole life in this country and studied its history religiously, you have no idea what you're talking about. To some degree throughout earlier history there has been a tad of oppression, but nothing comparable to any sort of thing that we would deem requiring emancipation from the rest of Canada.

our nation being dispossessed and plundered after the conquest, as well as being cheap labor for a long period of time. being told by an englishwoman that just about every quebecois she meets is the son of a farmer or workingclass poor poor then blame the backwardness of the catholic church instead of the oppressors. this is not oppression to you. did canada have an equal number of capitalist with almots the same amount of wealth in both nation since 1800?

pardon me sesoshvili, for the record we are often talking about this on msn, and the history you talk about is the one taught at school, just like of course, i won't deny that my history has a pro-separatist tune.

[danyboy27]

i Personally think its pathetic that leftist organisation like the communist party of quebec are ready to abandon their ideal to support a political party that have a near zero chance of being elected and that the working class dosnt give a rat ass about beccause they dont adress their issues.

I am sick and tired of Quebec leftists ready to sell their soul for a ''better capitalism"

we dont want a better capitalism, we want democracy, we want to be in control of our workplaces, we dont want a Unions, we want a more decentralized governement, we dont want a big monster nationalising wind power and solar energy.

Quebec solidaire policies are complex, timid and if applied will shred what left of leftist symphaty from the working class.

they are not decisive enough on many policies and that will spell their doom if they happen to be elected in 2100.
that not a typo error, 2100.

[ellipsis]

As someone who has spent his whole life in this country and studied its history religiously, you have no idea what you're talking about.


Granted you may know more about the subject than I but to say that I have NO IDEA what I am talking about is a gross exaggeration at best, a sign of poor forensic skill at worst and rude in any case. I will admit than my research has been decidedly one sided, but research none the less.


but nothing comparable to any sort of thing that we would deem requiring emancipation from the rest of Canada.Nor did I make any such claims. Nor did I argue for or against the idea of quebecois nationalism. While we are on the subject, here is what I, a person who has no idea what he is talking about, had to say in 2007, with citations provided in the original:


Talk of separatism has lingered on the fringes of Québécois politics, particularly nationalism since 1760 when the English defeated the French at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, thus conquering New France . There it remained, a virtual non-issue (at least for English Canada) until 1960, when a formerly conservative nationalism was turned into a more liberal and increasingly separatist brand of nationalism. Traditionally, Québécois nationalism had a federalist tendency, which promoted the interests of Québec within the political framework of the Confederation of Canada. Canadian sociologist Leon Dion attributes the rise of this new form of nationalism to two things: first the election of Jean Lesage to the office of Premier of Quebec and the widespread electoral success of the Liberal party in 1960 elections; second, and most relevant to the purposes of the paper the rise to power of independence movements in Africa and Asia following the end of World War II, which lead the Québécois to wonder “why not us?” . This brand of nationalism, which Dion refers to as “nationalism of growth” promoted provincial autonomy from Ottawa and the modernization of the province’s economy and economic infrastructure and establishment of state-owned industrial projects.
Lesage’s election ushered in the so-called Quiet Revolution, a transformation of the government and subsequently the society of Québec. This movement was characterized by rapid secularization of a province previously administered by the Catholic Church, the creation of a welfare state, and the rise of nationalism among the Francophone population. Until this point, two forces, English capitalist interests and the French Catholic Church, had controlled Québec. The Church was given authority over the education system and administration many other sections of society, “a virtual hegemony over the lives of French Canadians .” Because of this, and many other factors, including a categorical refusal to assimilate, the Québécois people remained socially, culturally and economic separate from English.
Not surprisingly, separate did not mean equal. Statistically speaking, before the Quiet Revolution, the Québécois people formed an economic underclass and the means of production lay in the hands of either English Canadian or foreign (mostly American) capitalist interests. In his book, Negres Blanc d’Amérique (White Niggers of America) the intellectual leader of the FLQ Pierre Vallières develops a material-driven, Marxian analysis of the history of les habitants, the ancestors of modern day Québecois and their constant antagonistic relationship to the English economic elites and the Church. It is a story that is reminiscent of that of indigenous people is Latin America; the habitants were given to worst land in an attempt to develop the province, but much of the land was so infertile that farmers could not even grow enough food to feed their family. While les habitants, the equivalent of the proletariat in Vallières’ analysis were starving, the non-French Canadian elites controlled of the most fertile land for wheat production and other goods to be exported .
Eventually the Québécois gave up on working the frozen, rock-filled land and moved to the city in search of jobs as the province became ever more industrialized. Both Dion and Fenwick see the move to the city, the struggle for economic equality and the rise of the Québécois middle-class as the causes of increased popularity of leftist nationalisms in the province. But nationalism in Québec should not be seen as a monolithic movement with one vision and one methodology. Even within separatism, a fringe of nationalism itself, social pluralism and ideological diversity factionalize the movement . Vallières and Charles Gagnon, another writer and member of the FLQ were part of a nascent intellectual movement within Québec during the 1960’s. The nature of the discourse highlights the factionalized the nature of the political actors ; it focused on the “proper ways of associating separatism with socialism; on the roles of violence in achieving an independent and socialist Québec; on the kind of socialism best suited for Québec, on the proper ways of “decolonizing” Québec; on the conditions of the class struggle in Québec, and so on .” Dion’s analysis focuses on the two largest branches of separatist nationalism, social-democratic and socialist. The former has found expression in the Partí Québécois (PQ) and the Bloc Québécois, successful contemporary political parties representing Quebec at the provincial and federal level, respectively. The latter found its most extreme manifestation in the FLQ and other militant groups in the 1960’s, the fringe of a social and political movement already on the left-hand fringe of the Canadian politics.

This isn't to mention that we've gone out of our way for the French language (anglophones learn more French than francophones learn English in schools now, I can tell you that having spoken to Quebecois about the subject) and that the Quebecois were actually a guiding force in the push for confederation. LOL. English Canada was forced to make changes to language laws, etc. because of Quebecois nationalist political elements. "You" did not go out of your way, you had no other choice but to attempt to appease an increasingly hostile section of the Quebec populace. 700,000 anglo-canadians leave the province after 1970 and you make it sound voluntary

Do I agree with the current situation in quebec? you might ask before arguing against points I haven't made. I have MANY reservations about the broad sprectrum of political actor which make up the quebec soverignty movement; one word Oké.

[Soseloshvili]

Sorry if I seemed insulting, it wasn't intended. The point was that I do know more about the subject than you, especially since you probably aren't Canadian or Quebecois (correct me if I'm wrong). I try to be a civil, so I apoligize.


LOL. English Canada was forced to make changes to language laws, etc. because of Quebecois nationalist political elements. "You" did not go out of your way, you had no other choice but to attempt to appease an increasingly hostile section of the Quebec populace. 700,000 anglo-canadians leave the province after 1970 and you make it sound voluntary

Do I agree with the current situation in quebec? you might ask before arguing against points I haven't made. I have MANY reservations about the broad sprectrum of political actor which make up the quebec soverignty movement; one word Oké.

Actually we went out of our way. Canada, as a whole, went out of its way. We did not concede to any demands, things like the office of official languages and sections 16-23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the parts that mention language) were not the doing of Canada after severe pressure but something we opted to do.

Speaking of Anglo-Quebecers, they are basically treated like shit in Quebec. It's worse than racism is in this country right now, the hate Quebecois have for their anglophone minority. Leaders of English rights groups have been attacked in Quebec, and most of the groups are completely neutral on the political spectrum. It's sad, pathetic Nationalism. That's all the separatist movement ever was.

[GreenCommunism]

i Personally think its pathetic that leftist organisation like the communist party of quebec are ready to abandon their ideal to support a political party that have a near zero chance of being elected and that the working class dosnt give a rat ass about beccause they dont adress their issues.

I am sick and tired of Quebec leftists ready to sell their soul for a ''better capitalism"

we dont want a better capitalism, we want democracy, we want to be in control of our workplaces, we dont want a Unions, we want a more decentralized governement, we dont want a big monster nationalising wind power and solar energy.

Quebec solidaire policies are complex, timid and if applied will shred what left of leftist symphaty from the working class.

they are not decisive enough on many policies and that will spell their doom if they happen to be elected in 2100.
that not a typo error, 2100.

what the fuck are you talking about, on what point did the communist party sell his soul, as for the working class not giving a rats ass about it because it doesn't affect their issue, in what frigging cave do you live in, the environment is a very important working class issue. have you read any single one of their brochure? last one i had was about the new provincial budget which then told citizens that they would pay 4-5 times the amount of tax raise as opposed to the bourgeois, this is a working class issue.


I have MANY reservations about the broad sprectrum of political actor which make up the quebec soverignty movement; one word Oké.

i think it is Oka around here? and yes, we have a link to a documentary about Oka on our website and we are strongly supportive of those who dared rising up against the government, i think it cost like 180 million dollar not including the military to the quebec government, this is a fine example of actually doing something.


Actually we went out of our way. Canada, as a whole, went out of its way. We did not concede to any demands, things like the office of official languages and sections 16-23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the parts that mention language) were not the doing of Canada after severe pressure but something we opted to do.

Speaking of Anglo-Quebecers, they are basically treated like shit in Quebec. It's worse than racism is in this country right now, the hate Quebecois have for their anglophone minority. Leaders of English rights groups have been attacked in Quebec, and most of the groups are completely neutral on the political spectrum. It's sad, pathetic Nationalism. That's all the separatist movement ever was.

did not concede to any demands? are you blind? why did we obtain any sort of rights, i guess the nationalist movement was a coincidence. you denied that we were oppressed at all historically. i mean how blind can you be.

as for the attacks i have never heard of this, and there is no way the liberals wouldn't use it against the nationalist movement. to be honest, why is there not a single canadian communist that gets it, your argument do not start from the point of view that it is up to us to decide, but here are your arguments against it. it is always an all-out hostile opposition because we will apparently destroy canada and you won't admit to be nationalist yourselves. face it, we are an oppressed people even nowdays, and leninists such as you should respect our national struggle for liberation.

why do i never hear of canadian communist who knows the history of the communist party and how many people had no objection to our independance, you want to know the attitude you should have? let's treat the quebecois people well so they will want to stay within canada, that is it. and this is the attitude that the communist party of quebec has with the various nations within quebec. your attitude is one of forced federation.

[GreenCommunism]

we dont want a better capitalism, we want democracy, we want to be in control of our workplaces, we dont want a Unions, we want a more decentralized governement, we dont want a big monster nationalising wind power and solar energy. http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/actualite-nationale/proposition-de-reforme-du-mode-de-scrutin-pour-que-chaque-vote-compte

http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/une-autre-%C3%A9conomie-est-possible-2e-cercle

http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/la-d%C3%A9mocratisation-des-relations-de-travail-du-mythe-%C3%A0-la-r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9

it looks like they care about democracy after all ,well , in the limits of social-democracy.

oh look something against poverty

http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/manif-nationale-pour-un-v%C3%A9ritable-plan-de-lutte-%C3%A0-la-pauvret%C3%A9

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Anglo-privilege totally does exist - not just in relation to francophones, but also, maybe more strikingly, with indigenous folk who speak traditional languages.

In any case, saying, "The oppression the worker of quebec is no more different than the oppression the worker of ontario or saskatchewan might endure," is ridiculous - oppression always exists in specificities. The oppression of a francophone in Canada is not "more" or "less" (oppression is not friggin' quantifiable!) but it is different, vis-a-vis the experience of anglophone authority.

As for the PCQ, I was totally a member (I even gave a speech at the conference where the PCQ split form the CPC), but, honestly, my experience with them lead me to believe that they, and the other leftist "parties" (what a misnomer!), are doomed to irrelevance, as organizations (though some of the very sincere individuals involved may well do something worthwhile).

Case in point, mad props to Amir Kadir for acting as a suriety for Jaggi Singh (an anarchist facing ridiculous conspiracy charges) - it's nice to see real relationships of support exist.

On another interesting note, the PCR are totally the only communist party I've seen throw down with anarchists and skids in the street. RED FLARES FTW.

[GreenCommunism]

As for the PCQ, I was totally a member (I even gave a speech at the conference where the PCQ split form the CPC), but, honestly, my experience with them lead me to believe that they, and the other leftist "parties" (what a misnomer!), are doomed to irrelevance, as organizations (though some of the very sincere individuals involved may well do something worthwhile).

yes this is a sad thing for all communist orgs, i feel that most of them are doomed to irrelevance. but this is a way to demoralize us i believe, i do not think we will do revolution in my lifetime, but i sure think we can work on it. i don't see why you think other orgs are different though.


Case in point, mad props to Amir Kadir for acting as a suriety for Jaggi Singh (an anarchist facing ridiculous conspiracy charges) - it's nice to see real relationships of support exist.

On another interesting note, the PCR are totally the only communist party I've seen throw down with anarchists and skids in the street. RED FLARES FTW.

i did not even know he was an anarchist, this is pretty awesome.

as for the PCR this is also pretty neat, i would actually have no problem with those people if they didn't spam the PCQ forum. Of course rival orgs will tease each other but i really have nothing against them, except saying one of our central commitee member deserved necklacing.

[Soseloshvili]

did not concede to any demands? are you blind? why did we obtain any sort of rights, i guess the nationalist movement was a coincidence. you denied that we were oppressed at all historically. i mean how blind can you be.

as for the attacks i have never heard of this, and there is no way the liberals wouldn't use it against the nationalist movement. to be honest, why is there not a single canadian communist that gets it, your argument do not start from the point of view that it is up to us to decide, but here are your arguments against it. it is always an all-out hostile opposition because we will apparently destroy canada and you won't admit to be nationalist yourselves. face it, we are an oppressed people even nowdays, and leninists such as you should respect our national struggle for liberation.

why do i never hear of canadian communist who knows the history of the communist party and how many people had no objection to our independance, you want to know the attitude you should have? let's treat the quebecois people well so they will want to stay within canada, that is it. and this is the attitude that the communist party of quebec has with the various nations within quebec. your attitude is one of forced federation.

My point was that the anglophone section of the country never actually resisted all the support that was given to both Francophone Quebecois and Francophone minorities. We actually started quite a bit of it. The Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, the commission that brought into being the Official Languages Act and the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, was actually the brainchild of an anglophone Prime Minister, Lester B. Pearson. It's creation was supported by all national anglophone parties.

Okay, offer up one occasion in the past 100 years when the Quebecois were openly oppressed by the English. Just one example. Don't bother using the 500 troops placed in Quebec during the FLQ's time, that wasn't anglophone oppression but counter-revolution, two separate things.

My attitude is one that most Quebec Separatists speak straight out of Nationalism. If a Quebecois burned a Canadian flag, they'd think it was fine. But if a Canadian burned the Quebecois flag, god help them. It's just nationalism... there's no honest reason for Quebec to separate on an economic level.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Okay, offer up one occasion in the past 100 years when the Quebecois were openly oppressed by the English. Just one example. Don't bother using the 500 troops placed in Quebec during the FLQ's time, that wasn't anglophone oppression but counter-revolution, two separate things.

Woah, yo, you can't just erase the FLQs being Quebecois - that was obviously, like, pretty central to their position vis-a-vis the Canadian state (that is, as specifically francophone proletarians). That's actually pretty fucked up - acting as arbiter of what does/doesn't count as the state attacking francophones in a situation where the police were rounding up and arresting francophones. That's like saying the US repression of the Black Panthers wasn't part repression of black people - it's ridiculous.

Further more, think about how oppression actually works - it doesn't manifest itself primarily in massive displays of force, but through the norms within everyday life.

[Soseloshvili]

Woah, yo, you can't just erase the FLQs being Quebecois - that was obviously, like, pretty central to their position vis-a-vis the Canadian state (that is, as specifically francophone proletarians). That's actually pretty fucked up - acting as arbiter of what does/doesn't count as the state attacking francophones in a situation where the police were rounding up and arresting francophones. That's like saying the US repression of the Black Panthers wasn't part repression of black people - it's ridiculous.

Further more, think about how oppression actually works - it doesn't manifest itself primarily in massive displays of force, but through the norms within everyday life.

My point with the FLQ was that it's not as if the government went after the FLQ when they did nothing, it was a revolution, the FLQ was committing violent acts against Canada in the name of Quebec. You can't say that Canada sending in the military to get rid of the FLQ is an act of oppression, it was an act of retaliation. Just to clarify I'm not trying to justify Canada's invasion of Quebec, it just is what it is.

I suppose. I've read some things that suggest Quebecois were paid less than anglophones up until the 1970s or so. But I've also read things like that about Western Canadians and Maritimers. It seems like everyone was making less money than people were in Ontario, so that's no really oppression it's just the effects of Capitalism, business was stronger in Ontario than anywhere else.

Other than that I can't think of much. Anything that happened in Quebec also happened elsewhere, such as the suppression of the industrial labour union movements, so it can't really be called anglophone oppression against Quebecois. Quebec had its own élite more than it ever had a Canadian élite.

[GreenCommunism]

My point was that the anglophone section of the country never actually resisted all the support that was given to both Francophone Quebecois and Francophone minorities. We actually started quite a bit of it. The Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, the commission that brought into being the Official Languages Act and the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, was actually the brainchild of an anglophone Prime Minister, Lester B. Pearson. It's creation was supported by all national anglophone parties.

Okay, offer up one occasion in the past 100 years when the Quebecois were openly oppressed by the English. Just one example. Don't bother using the 500 troops placed in Quebec during the FLQ's time, that wasn't anglophone oppression but counter-revolution, two separate things.individual ontarians often ***** about the bilingual stop sign in ottawa, i've heard it more than one time. i have looked at the news from canada and there is so much anti-quebecois bullshit. where is our pro-separatist newspaper constantly *****ing about ottawa and english canada? you have the gazette and we have none.

why would they oppose a way to prevent independance and liberty to a whole people? they are imperialist, they love 'humanitarian' bombing. they love pretending that the war on terror is not a war against islam while they actually bomb countries with a muslim majority.


My attitude is one that most Quebec Separatists speak straight out of Nationalism. If a Quebecois burned a Canadian flag, they'd think it was fine. But if a Canadian burned the Quebecois flag, god help them. It's just nationalism... there's no honest reason for Quebec to separate on an economic level. i already told you why it's right for arabs to burn american flag and we have the same right as a people to burn the flag of our oppressors. do you think it's the same when muslims burn bibles and when christians burn qu'rans?

as for the economy, everything we want to do as a people has to go through ottawa, and everything that english canada wants to do... they can do whatever the hell they want to, because the bloc quebecois can't oppose them it only has 7-10% of the seats.


Other than that I can't think of much. Anything that happened in Quebec also happened elsewhere, such as the suppression of the industrial labour union movements, so it can't really be called anglophone oppression against Quebecois. Quebec had its own élite more than it ever had a Canadian élite. quebec was much closer to ontario, do you deny the fact that quebecois lived under anglo-supremacy in the economic sector up until the 70s? do you deny the fact that quebecois had no chance but to learn english to be a waitress or other service job, and that nowdays , there is much more pressure for a quebecois to learn english than there is pressure for a person from ontario to learn french? back in the day we were ranked 12 out of 14 ethnic groups in quebec as being the poorest on average. that's not oppression when english speaking immigrants from poor countries are better off than we are.

while there is 500 000 francophone in ontario, there is also 13 million of people in ontario. in quebec, there is 600 000 anglophone, in a province of 7-8 million people. and in the rest of canada, the french language is abysmal.

don't you find it strange that there are more english speaking quebecois in montreal by pourcentage than in gatineau?

and when it comes to the FLQ, supporting a revolutionary socialist organisation is never wrong, especially one like them who managed to have so few casualties unlike most terrorist group.

[Soseloshvili]

individual ontarians often ***** about the bilingual stop sign in ottawa, i've heard it more than one time. i have looked at the news from canada and there is so much anti-quebecois bullshit. where is our pro-separatist newspaper constantly *****ing about ottawa and english canada? you have the gazette and we have none.

What about those guys who staged a demonstration and threatened violence after the reenactment of the Plains of Abraham? They complain about all that stuff all the time, and it gets in the news.



i already told you why it's right for arabs to burn american flag and we have the same right as a people to burn the flag of our oppressors. do you think it's the same when muslims burn bibles and when christians burn qu'rans?

I've already established that you're not currently oppressed. Here in Quinte West we are bilingual. The French here are all military people, and the rest of the town is poor so the French neighbourhood is the richest in town. Therefore it's somewhat accurate to say that we have a Quebecois oppressor-class. Should I be able to burn the Quebec flag? No, because that would be blaming the Quebecois for the effects of Capitalism. Same goes vice-a-versa.

[GreenCommunism]

What about those guys who staged a demonstration and threatened violence after the reenactment of the Plains of Abraham? They complain about all that stuff all the time, and it gets in the news.

it's the RRQ, how did they threaten violence though, i never understood how they did threaten violence though.


I've already established that you're not currently oppressed. Here in Quinte West we are bilingual. The French here are all military people, and the rest of the town is poor so the French neighbourhood is the richest in town. Therefore it's somewhat accurate to say that we have a Quebecois oppressor-class. Should I be able to burn the Quebec flag? No, because that would be blaming the Quebecois for the effects of Capitalism. Same goes vice-a-versa.

you are a small frigging town which has nothing to do with the whole province as a whole, you have not established that we were not oppressed because you have not provided figures on the income of the capitalist and their origins. anything that isn't near complete equality in capita with ethnic or mother tongue next to it is not acceptable, as you know there are many english capitalists in montreal.

if there is such a flag representing their neighboorhood, ( which i doubt) then you are welcome to burn it, even if it has a few fleurs de lys on it,we won't take it personal except the pro-war idiots. i could understand your views because of that stupid support our troops protest you were forced to take part in.

i forgot to answer this one
FYI, a lot of those immigrant are englishmen, you know, beccause you can have a darker skin and speak english...just so you know.

well alot of those dark immigrants are also french from haiti, just so you know, all i care about is the new comers who do not have either french or english as a language, to learn french, which is something that is going on right and i am more or less satisfied. however, the bill 103 allows people to enter private schools for a very short time then go on their whole life in a public english school. are you blind to see that the french language is threatened by english hegemony everywhere in the world and foremost in quebec, hell we are debating quebec independance in english.

[Soseloshvili]

you are a small frigging town which has nothing to do with the whole province as a whole, you have not established that we were not oppressed because you have not provided figures on the income of the capitalist and their origins. anything that isn't near complete equality in capita with ethnic or mother tongue next to it is not acceptable, as you know there are many english capitalists in montreal.

if there is such a flag representing their neighboorhood, ( which i doubt) then you are welcome to burn it, even if it has a few fleurs de lys on it,we won't take it personal except the pro-war idiots. i could understand your views because of that stupid support our troops protest you were forced to take part in.

The people in that neighbourhood are Quebecois. They fly the flag of Quebec from their houses, or Canada. Their flag is the flag of Quebec.

Okay, you want me to prove that the French neighbourhood is the richest? You can actually see it from space. Take a look at this image:

http://peoplesvoice.freehostia.com/images/othersites/trenton.jpghttp://peoplesvoice.freehostia.com/images/othersites/trenton.jpg

See that red area I circled? That's the French neighbourhood. Look at the difference compared to the rest of town, the Anglophone parts. It's a high end subdivision, compared to the cramped and generally run down urban area. Plus, the school in that community is a private school, not public. If this isn't proof I don't know what it.

Now you claiming that this town doesn't matter is pointless, the 25,000 or so in this town matter just as much as 25,000 people anywhere else. Whether or not this town is Toronto the issues here are real and relevant. The point is that this town has a Québécois élite. The mayor of Trenton and councilor for Trenton Ward are both Québécois because the Francophones are the richest people in town.

So since we're oppressed by a Québécois elite, shouldn't I be able to burn the Québec flag in protest? No, I shouldn't. Do you know why? Because that would be scapegoating Francophones for the problems of Capitalism, it's like right wingers burning the Mexican flag. You burning the Canadian flag would be the same thing.

Yes, there are Anglophone Capitalists in Quebec. However there are also many Francophone Capitalists. In the past Quebec was pretty Anglophone dominated, but this was mainly because of the Duplessis governments policy of letting in the Americans, who naturally Anglicized everything which in turn made Quebec a more comfy place for Canadian Anglophones. In our history, for the most part, there hasn't been much in the way of Canadian Anglophones oppressing the Québécois, it's quite the opposite now anyway. Unless you can count the Battle on the Plains of Abraham in the 18th century, there's never been a definitive act of oppression against the Québécois by anglophones.
http://peoplesvoice.freehostia.com/images/othersites/trenton.jpg

[GreenCommunism]

The people in that neighbourhood are Quebecois. They fly the flag of Quebec from their houses, or Canada. Their flag is the flag of Quebec.and the native, they fly the flag of canada in my hometown, they are oppressed. shit i wouldn't burn the flag in front of them, but i guess you can.


Yes, there are Anglophone Capitalists in Quebec. However there are also many Francophone Capitalists. In the past Quebec was pretty Anglophone dominated, but this was mainly because of the Duplessis governments policy of letting in the Americans, who naturally Anglicized everything which in turn made Quebec a more comfy place for Canadian Anglophones. In our history, for the most part, there hasn't been much in the way of Canadian Anglophones oppressing the Québécois, it's quite the opposite now anyway. Unless you can count the Battle on the Plains of Abraham in the 18th century, there's never been a definitive act of oppression against the Québécois by anglophones. you must buy yourself some glasses because you are so blind, oppression is systemic, your town is irrelevant because its not a fair representation of the whole province.

i already told you why it's right for mexicans to burn american flag and not the opposite, yet you persist in thinking it has something to do with scapegoating. as for blaming the problems on the anglophone, isn't it hilarious that if we obtain independance we can stop actually blaming the anglophone since we will be master of our own destiny aka it will be the fault of our own government if something is wrong.

it was anglophone dominated long before duplessis, and i still have no proof whatsoever of a quebecois over-class in ontario. it sounds ridiculous because it is. whether you like it or not this debate divides my nation whom half are scared of economic repercussions while the other half are ardent nationalist, there is no such divide in ontario, everyone is united into a chauvinistic attitude even up to the point of denying our right to separate with a majority.

[Soseloshvili]

and the native, they fly the flag of canada in my hometown, they are oppressed. shit i wouldn't burn the flag in front of them, but i guess you can.

you must buy yourself some glasses because you are so blind, oppression is systemic, your town is irrelevant because its not a fair representation of the whole province.

i already told you why it's right for mexicans to burn american flag and not the opposite, yet you persist in thinking it has something to do with scapegoating. as for blaming the problems on the anglophone, isn't it hilarious that if we obtain independance we can stop actually blaming the anglophone since we will be master of our own destiny aka it will be the fault of our own government if something is wrong.

it was anglophone dominated long before duplessis, and i still have no proof whatsoever of a quebecois over-class in ontario. it sounds ridiculous because it is. whether you like it or not this debate divides my nation whom half are scared of economic repercussions while the other half are ardent nationalist, there is no such divide in ontario, everyone is united into a chauvinistic attitude even up to the point of denying our right to separate with a majority.

It is completely scapegoating. You're burning a flag of a people. That flag doesn't represent an ideology, or a particular exploitative relationship. It represents a people, with a bourgeoisie and a working class. Instead of blaming "immigrants" you're blaming Anglophones. It's blatant Nationalism, why else would you burn something that represents a people, basically saying "we want to burn you". It will in no way generate any sort of camaraderie among that nation and yours.

So what if my town doesn't reflect all of Ontario? It's still a situation where the Québécois are acting as a social élite over Anglophones. That's the point, the point is that your precious notions of Anglophone élitism aren't universal. Though there is such thing as whole nations acting as a dominate class over another nation, Québec isn't quite that definitive, there is a Anglophone, Québécois and Foreign élite in both Québec and the rest of Canada.

You still have no proof? How is what I showed you not proof? I don't possibly know how I couldn't show you any clearer other than with statistics, which to the best of my knowledge don't exist.

And by the way Ontarians aren't "unified" on the issue of Québec separatism, many in the franco-ontarien community are sympathetic to Québec's independence as well as a lot of foreigners.

[GreenCommunism]

It is completely scapegoating. You're burning a flag of a people. That flag doesn't represent an ideology, or a particular exploitative relationship. It represents a people, with a bourgeoisie and a working class. Instead of blaming "immigrants" you're blaming Anglophones. It's blatant Nationalism, why else would you burn something that represents a people, basically saying "we want to burn you". It will in no way generate any sort of camaraderie among that nation and yours.

So what if my town doesn't reflect all of Ontario? It's still a situation where the Québécois are acting as a social élite over Anglophones. That's the point, the point is that your precious notions of Anglophone élitism aren't universal. Though there is such thing as whole nations acting as a dominate class over another nation, Québec isn't quite that definitive, there is a Anglophone, Québécois and Foreign élite in both Québec and the rest of Canada.

You still have no proof? How is what I showed you not proof? I don't possibly know how I couldn't show you any clearer other than with statistics, which to the best of my knowledge don't exist.

And by the way Ontarians aren't "unified" on the issue of Québec separatism, many in the franco-ontarien community are sympathetic to Québec's independence as well as a lot of foreigners.

yeah i want to burn people, be more of a demagogue, like i told you like fucking 10 times, we are oppressed, we have the right to burn the flag of our oppressors, and no we don't blame the english for single thing except our oppression to be honest, so far the only thing i have heard blaming the english was about a certain highway that wasn't built and they blamed ottawa for being too far away to understand our concerns, that's not scapegoating, that's criticizing the federation.

i guess arabs shouldn't be burning american flag, because after all ,it wont create camaraderie between their nation and the fucking oppressors butchering their children.

your town has fucking 25 000 population why the hell should i care about a single muslim being a millionaire when so many of them are poor, your approach is totally unmarxist. i never said that there was no anglo-saxons which was less wealthy than a quebecois , i just said as a whole, as nations. you oppress us. stop running around the pot.

yes there is an elite in canada, now tell me the % of the quebecois elite and the % of the anglo saxon elite. show me they are equal per population in influence and number, or better yet justify the reason why they are not as powerful. you will have it screaming in your face, OPPRESSION.


And by the way Ontarians aren't "unified" on the issue of Québec separatism, many in the franco-ontarien community are sympathetic to Québec's independence as well as a lot of foreigners.

80% is pretty unified in my book.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

As someone who has spent his whole life in this country and studied its history religiously . . .

You have no subjective experience of being francophone.
If anything, studying History (and speaking as a former history student myself) only serves to further obscure the real lived experience of its objects.

As for the Canadian flag, everyone should be burning that motherfucker. Flying any national flag (Canadian, American, Quebecois, whatever) on occupied native land is totally stoopid.

[Soseloshvili]

yeah i want to burn people, be more of a demagogue, like i told you like fucking 10 times, we are oppressed, we have the right to burn the flag of our oppressors, and no we don't blame the english for single thing except our oppression to be honest, so far the only thing i have heard blaming the english was about a certain highway that wasn't built and they blamed ottawa for being too far away to understand our concerns, that's not scapegoating, that's criticizing the federation.

i guess arabs shouldn't be burning american flag, because after all ,it wont create camaraderie between their nation and the fucking oppressors butchering their children.

I'm trying to argue the fact that you're not oppressed. Why do you keep throwing that argument back without proof?

As for the flag, explain how that's not in every way blaming Canada for the problems of Québec. Burning the Canadian flag if completely, 100% blaming Canada, there is physically nothing else that this could possibly represent. I mean seriously, what are Fascists doing in the U.S.A. when they burn the flag of Israel? It's symbolically blaming Israel, and therefore Jews, for the problems of people of European decent. Same goes for you burning a Canadian flag.

Yea, Arabs shouldn't burn the American flag. Do you know why? Because it's that image, that mental picture of foreigners burning what represents their country, that drives Americans to the ultra-right. It installs fear in the people of the flag being burned and brings out only the most reactionary of qualities. Whether this is right or not, it's what will happen to any group worldwide.

I have yet to see any evidence that during a procession of Socialists in Palestine an Israeli flag was burnt, or an American flag was burnt. Do you know why that is? That's because the Socialist organization there, the PFLP, believes in a one-state solution. They want to cooperate with Israelis. They understand that it isn't Israelis as a people who are to blame but Zionism as an ideology. It's the same as here, you're being extremely Nationalist by burning the flag of a people.


your town has fucking 25 000 population why the hell should i care about a single muslim being a millionaire when so many of them are poor, your approach is totally unmarxist. i never said that there was no anglo-saxons which was less wealthy than a quebecois , i just said as a whole, as nations. you oppress us. stop running around the pot.

How am I being unmarxist? I'm not suggesting that my town is somehow more important than the rest, or that it's the norm, I'm suggesting that it's Capitalism not Canadians that's harming Québec and that your idea of a Canadian élite and a Québécois proletariat isn't necessarily true. That's it. That's all I wanted to prove.

Actually I just proved that, as a whole, we do not oppress you. I just provided you with a specific situation where it was the opposite, proving that things aren't quite so simple. If there really was an anglophone élite over Québec, why would there even be a Québécois middle class? Or why would there be places where the French are the élite? My town isn't the only one too, I can point to other towns with the same phenomenom. That being said there are also situations that are the opposite.

The point is, the one that I've been trying to make all along, that the classic "Québec is oppressed by an anglophone élite" isn't quite accurate. It's blurred. There are, in some cases, anglophone élites over Québécois, the best example of this being in some ways Montréal, though it's not fair to say that all of Montréal is oppressed by an anglophone élite.


yes there is an elite in canada, now tell me the % of the quebecois elite and the % of the anglo saxon elite. show me they are equal per population in influence and number, or better yet justify the reason why they are not as powerful. you will have it screaming in your face, OPPRESSION.

Or here's an idea. There are about 6 million Francophones in this country out of a population of 35 million. That means Anglophones outnumber Francophones about 7:1. Think about it, if it were equal there would be 7x more anglophone bourgeoisie than francophone bourgeoisie. And thanks to the borderless nature of Capitalism, you have, to some degree, that factor affecting you.

At one point in our history the Francophones were the majority of the population, this only changed with the massive immigration wave of Anglophones fleeing America coming after the American Revolution. At that point you were actually the élite, anglophones here were about 90% proletarian at that time living in small settlements like logging settlements or farming communities. The point is that if you factor in everything that could affect it, the ratio of anglophone to francophone oppressors is probably pretty even.


80% is pretty unified in my book.

I beg to differ. You have to remember that a lot of the politicians in this province are actually French, so it's actually politically a pretty big issue. Of course not as big as in Québec, I don't doubt that. But still, it affects the whole country, don't act as if it's an issue that only affects Québec.


As for the Canadian flag, everyone should be burning that motherfucker. Flying any national flag (Canadian, American, Quebecois, whatever) on occupied native land is totally stoopid.

How is that in any way constructive. I admit you have a point, but burning a flag does absolutely nothing.

[GreenCommunism]

I'm trying to argue the fact that you're not oppressed. Why do you keep throwing that argument back without proof?

As for the flag, explain how that's not in every way blaming Canada for the problems of Québec. Burning the Canadian flag if completely, 100% blaming Canada, there is physically nothing else that this could possibly represent. I mean seriously, what are Fascists doing in the U.S.A. when they burn the flag of Israel? It's symbolically blaming Israel, and therefore Jews, for the problems of people of European decent. Same goes for you burning a Canadian flag.

Yea, Arabs shouldn't burn the American flag. Do you know why? Because it's that image, that mental picture of foreigners burning what represents their country, that drives Americans to the ultra-right. It installs fear in the people of the flag being burned and brings out only the most reactionary of qualities. Whether this is right or not, it's what will happen to any group worldwide.

I have yet to see any evidence that during a procession of Socialists in Palestine an Israeli flag was burnt, or an American flag was burnt. Do you know why that is? That's because the Socialist organization there, the PFLP, believes in a one-state solution. They want to cooperate with Israelis. They understand that it isn't Israelis as a people who are to blame but Zionism as an ideology. It's the same as here, you're being extremely Nationalist by burning the flag of a people.

burning a flag is attacking a symbol, i agree that it is to some extent useless etc. but this is how national liberation struggle are done. the pflp probably attack israeli symbol as well.


How am I being unmarxist? I'm not suggesting that my town is somehow more important than the rest, or that it's the norm, I'm suggesting that it's Capitalism not Canadians that's harming Québec and that your idea of a Canadian élite and a Québécois proletariat isn't necessarily true. That's it. That's all I wanted to prove.

Actually I just proved that, as a whole, we do not oppress you. I just provided you with a specific situation where it was the opposite, proving that things aren't quite so simple. If there really was an anglophone élite over Québec, why would there even be a Québécois middle class? Or why would there be places where the French are the élite? My town isn't the only one too, I can point to other towns with the same phenomenom. That being said there are also situations that are the opposite.

The point is, the one that I've been trying to make all along, that the classic "Québec is oppressed by an anglophone élite" isn't quite accurate. It's blurred. There are, in some cases, anglophone élites over Québécois, the best example of this being in some ways Montréal, though it's not fair to say that all of Montréal is oppressed by an anglophone élite.

i'm saying a single billionaire in africa doesn't mean american bourgeoisie is not exploiting africa's ressources.


Or here's an idea. There are about 6 million Francophones in this country out of a population of 35 million. That means Anglophones outnumber Francophones about 7:1. Think about it, if it were equal there would be 7x more anglophone bourgeoisie than francophone bourgeoisie. And thanks to the borderless nature of Capitalism, you have, to some degree, that factor affecting you.

At one point in our history the Francophones were the majority of the population, this only changed with the massive immigration wave of Anglophones fleeing America coming after the American Revolution. At that point you were actually the élite, anglophones here were about 90% proletarian at that time living in small settlements like logging settlements or farming communities. The point is that if you factor in everything that could affect it, the ratio of anglophone to francophone oppressors is probably pretty even.


we lived in logging settlements as well ,you ignore the plundering of a nation that happens when a nation is conquered, you also ignore how the government basicly allowed anglo-saxon capitalists to dominate.


I beg to differ. You have to remember that a lot of the politicians in this province are actually French, so it's actually politically a pretty big issue. Of course not as big as in Québec, I don't doubt that. But still, it affects the whole country, don't act as if it's an issue that only affects Québec.

it doesn't really matter, as they are canadians or ontarians, our current premier in quebec is john james charest, he changed his name to jean charest because of our nationalism. he is a quebecois even if he is of anglo-saxon ethnic origins, hell many anglophones are quebecois in quebec, the problem is that too many of them probably identify with english canada more than with quebec. this is actually a discussion that i had with a fellow party member, about a truly patriotic anglophone quebec community.

nevertheless, it remains that the french speaking descendants were oppressed in their ability to prosper and to control their own destiny, there were attempts at assimilation who failed, then they decided for a longer course of assimilation which was reversed in 1960.


As for the Canadian flag, everyone should be burning that motherfucker. Flying any national flag (Canadian, American, Quebecois, whatever) on occupied native land is totally stoopid.

..... *removes quebec flag from his window*

[Soseloshvili]

burning a flag is attacking a symbol, i agree that it is to some extent useless etc. but this is how national liberation struggle are done. the pflp probably attack israeli symbol as well.

There have been, to the best of my knowledge, no such cases because of the one-state solution they advocate.


i'm saying a single billionaire in africa doesn't mean american bourgeoisie is not exploiting africa's ressources.

And I'm saying that because there are American bourgeoisie it doesn't necessarily mean that the African bourgeoisie aren't exploiting Africa's resources. Both of these are true, the truth of the oppressor class cannot be so easily defined as entire nations / peoples.




we lived in logging settlements as well ,you ignore the plundering of a nation that happens when a nation is conquered, you also ignore how the government basicly allowed anglo-saxon capitalists to dominate.

I agree, that did happen. But you know what else happened? The Government of Quebec allowed it to happen to, in fact they encouraged it. Until the 1960s Quebec was very loyalist to Canada, excluding the 1838 rebellions (which also happened here, don't forget that). They encouraged British exploits, supported them militarily and invited Anglophone Capitalism into their nation.

Of course Canada is going to allow it to happen in Quebec, why would a Capitalist Country not allow the expansion of Capitalism?



it doesn't really matter, as they are canadians or ontarians, our current premier in quebec is john james charest, he changed his name to jean charest because of our nationalism. he is a quebecois even if he is of anglo-saxon ethnic origins, hell many anglophones are quebecois in quebec, the problem is that too many of them probably identify with english canada more than with quebec. this is actually a discussion that i had with a fellow party member, about a truly patriotic anglophone quebec community.

nevertheless, it remains that the french speaking descendants were oppressed in their ability to prosper and to control their own destiny, there were attempts at assimilation who failed, then they decided for a longer course of assimilation which was reversed in 1960.

Using the word "patriot"... make you sound a lot like the right wing crazies in America. You know, they refer to themselves as "patriots" as well, saying their staying true to the goals of the revolutions of the past. Defending the 1838 rebellions and the quiet revolution on grounds of "patriotism" is much the same as an American waving the constitution saying it's "their right" to bear arms (in your case, separate).

The reason they identify with Canada is because they consider themselves Canadians, not Québécois. To the average Canadian, Canada includes Québec. It is pretty important to us culturally and historically. That's why they don't call themselves Québécois "patriots", because they're objective enough to realize how ridiculous that sounds.


..... *removes quebec flag from his window*

If it makes you happy there are no Canadian flags in my room, I actually have the flag of the FLQ in my room among other flags.

[GreenCommunism]

There have been, to the best of my knowledge, no such cases because of the one-state solution they advocate.


they could still burn the israeli flag, a one state solution would have a different flag.


And I'm saying that because there are American bourgeoisie it doesn't necessarily mean that the African bourgeoisie aren't exploiting Africa's resources. Both of these are true, the truth of the oppressor class cannot be so easily defined as entire nations / peoples.

yes the quebecois bourgeoisie are exploiting quebecois workers are well, and to some extent oppressing them. my point is that while independance might not stop the exploitation of quebec worker it will stop the oppression of quebec worker from the canadian parliament.


I agree, that did happen. But you know what else happened? The Government of Quebec allowed it to happen to, in fact they encouraged it. Until the 1960s Quebec was very loyalist to Canada, excluding the 1838 rebellions (which also happened here, don't forget that). They encouraged British exploits, supported them militarily and invited Anglophone Capitalism into their nation.

Of course Canada is going to allow it to happen in Quebec, why would a Capitalist Country not allow the expansion of Capitalism?

.... a frigging conquered nation? what do you expect of them.


Using the word "patriot"... make you sound a lot like the right wing crazies in America. You know, they refer to themselves as "patriots" as well, saying their staying true to the goals of the revolutions of the past. Defending the 1838 rebellions and the quiet revolution on grounds of "patriotism" is much the same as an American waving the constitution saying it's "their right" to bear arms (in your case, separate).

The reason they identify with Canada is because they consider themselves Canadians, not Québécois. To the average Canadian, Canada includes Québec. It is pretty important to us culturally and historically. That's why they don't call themselves Québécois "patriots", because they're objective enough to realize how ridiculous that sounds.

who cares if the american right wing crazies call themselves patriots, the 1838 called themselves patriots. it is part of our heritage and we shouldn't allow the americans to ruin anything. it is our culture, fuck them.

stop calling my nationalist movement ridiculous please, your opposition to my nationalist movement is the only ridiculous thing present in this conversation, where is my autonomy and self-determination. why do i have to be pushed around by you. your opposition is chauvinist. i meant anglophones to be integrated in our society and call themselves quebecois.


If it makes you happy there are no Canadian flags in my room, I actually have the flag of the FLQ in my room among other flags.

why do you have the FLQ flag? you are opposed to independance.

[Soseloshvili]

they could still burn the israeli flag, a one state solution would have a different flag.

It still represents the Israeli people. And they don't hate Israelis, just Zionism, so why burn it?


yes the quebecois bourgeoisie are exploiting quebecois workers are well, and to some extent oppressing them. my point is that while independance might not stop the exploitation of quebec worker it will stop the oppression of quebec worker from the canadian parliament.

And leave us both vulnerable to American Imperialism / Capitalism. Together we're at least a decent sized nation and aware of our independence from America, apart we're as weak as all those tiny Latin American countries that were taken over by America decades ago.


.... a frigging conquered nation? what do you expect of them.

My point was that your province practiced fiscal Conservatism for a long time and openly advocated foreign investment. It wasn't entirely Imperialism that drove it but the backwards, church dominated nature of pre-quiet revolutionary Québec.


who cares if the american right wing crazies call themselves patriots, the 1838 called themselves patriots. it is part of our heritage and we shouldn't allow the americans to ruin anything. it is our culture, fuck them.

stop calling my nationalist movement ridiculous please, your opposition to my nationalist movement is the only ridiculous thing present in this conversation, where is my autonomy and self-determination. why do i have to be pushed around by you. your opposition is chauvinist. i meant anglophones to be integrated in our society and call themselves quebecois.

Do you know why they called themselves patriots? Those were men advocating the ideals of the patriots, the men who fought the American Revolution. They essentially were advocating the bourgeois liberal democracy promoted by Americans... that's how the rebellions of 1838 played out here you know, the major battle of that rebellion in Ontario was the American invasion at windsor, which the army fought off. Those patriots were advocating the same things those people who wave the American constitution around on Capitol Hill defend today. And you defend them. What does that make you?

You just admitted yourself a Nationalist. We are Communists, we preach Internationalism, the opposite of that. Basically your an ethnic Nationalist, or more rigidly defined a Linguistic Nationalist. That puts you in league with those National Socialists in Arabia forcing minorities to learn Arabic language and culture as well as those guys who during the Trudeau era said that Trudeau's true plan was to turn Canada into a Francophone state.

And why should anglophones integrate into your society and be Québécois? Here Francophones have the freedom to be Franco-Ontariens and have their own cultural organizations, schools, radio channels, and even newspapers. They have the right to identify as Québécois (if that's where they're from) without questioning. Why shouldn't anglo-Quebecers have that right? So they have to identify as a Québécois to live in Québéc? You sound like those anti-immigration protestors.


why do you have the FLQ flag? you are opposed to independance.

I'm actually not really opposed to independance. Basically if the majority of the Québécois, as well as a majority of anglophones there, ask for Québec's independance than who am I to oppose them. However when a small faction arrises and says that it's Québec's right to separate (without considering the consequences or whether Québec actually wants it) and that this must be demanded from the "Canadian oppressor state" than I strongly disagree.

In theory, I'm okay with Québec having political independance. I just don't know about economic independence, it could be damaging to both economies and leave us vulnerable to American Imperialism and Capitalism. We could become a dependant nation, either one of us.

[GreenCommunism]

It still represents the Israeli people. And they don't hate Israelis, just Zionism, so why burn it?

well perhaps there are better symbols to attack, personally i would feel bad if they attacked a synagogue but not if they burn the flag as it represents the government, for example the flq blew up post-canada boxes.


And leave us both vulnerable to American Imperialism / Capitalism. Together we're at least a decent sized nation and aware of our independence from America, apart we're as weak as all those tiny Latin American countries that were taken over by America decades ago.

i still don't see how that leaves quebec and canada vulnerable, we export electricity to the usa so we do have some lever over them. look at how stephen harper sucked to america in the wood crisis. there wouldn't be any difference. those small latin american countries are very different, the usa install puppet dictatorship over there.


Do you know why they called themselves patriots? Those were men advocating the ideals of the patriots, the men who fought the American Revolution. They essentially were advocating the bourgeois liberal democracy promoted by Americans... that's how the rebellions of 1838 played out here you know, the major battle of that rebellion in Ontario was the American invasion at windsor, which the army fought off. Those patriots were advocating the same things those people who wave the American constitution around on Capitol Hill defend today. And you defend them. What does that make you?

You just admitted yourself a Nationalist. We are Communists, we preach Internationalism, the opposite of that. Basically your an ethnic Nationalist, or more loosely defined a Linguistic Nationalist. That puts you in league with those National Socialists in Arabia forcing minorities to learn Arabic language and culture as well as those guys who during the Trudeau era said that Trudeau's true plan was to turn Canada into a Francophone state.

And why should anglophones integrate into your society and be Québécois? Here Francophones have the freedom to be Franco-Ontariens and have their own cultural organizations, schools, radio channels, and even newspapers. Why shouldn't anglo-Quebecers have that right? So they have to identify as a Québécois to live in Québéc? You sound like those anti-immigration protestors.

god you are such a demagogues, the french revolution had much more leftist flair than it used to be especially the sans culotte and robespierre. it doesn't matter what terms we use.

we don't force anyone to learn our language more than ontario does, yet we are a threatened minority. correct me if i am wrong, but quebec with the law 103 now has more rights for the anglophone then francophones have in ontario, since francophone in ontario cannot go through a private school in order to enter a franco-ontarian school.

have you ever read lenin? national war of liberation are a-okay. every oppressed nation in the world should be liberated and if anything, communist assisting them will give respect among the population for they understand their plight. sure we are internationalist, but that would be in the framework on equality between nations. as for stateless socialism i welcome it but only when there is no longer imperialism. and i will state it again, it is always right to rebel against the oppressor. our nationalism is liberation nationalism and it is just.

i am not a linguistic nationalist, the PQ is trying this retarded line and it is reactionary, what i was envisioning was an english community in quebec after independance who identify as quebecois instead of canadians, for the record i have no problem with anyone identifying to any nation and living in quebec, they are still civic quebecois and i won't mind considering them members of my nations,or compatriot just to tease you in fact, i don't give a shit if you are a member of my nation or not.


I'm actually not really opposed to independance. Basically if the majority of the Québécois, as well as a majority of anglophones there, ask for Québec's independance than who am I to oppose them. However when a small faction arrises and says that it's Québec's right to separate (without considering the consequences or whether Québec actually wants it) and that this must be demanded from the "Canadian oppressor state" than I strongly disagree.

In theory, I'm okay with Québec having political independance. I just don't know about economic independence, it could be damaging to both economies and leave us vulnerable to American Imperialism and Capitalism. We could become a dependant nation, either one of us.

DAMN, finally something reasonable out of a canadian communist when it comes to independance.

this small faction you call are arguing for independance, we won the 1995 referendum but the canadian state cheated us of it. we would not do independance undemocratically.

As for the party, the program was shared by both the CPC and the PCQ, the PCQ could not argue and state it was for independance without the PCC agreeing. beside they were not asking the oppressor state, they were asking member of the oppressor state who are communist, there should have been more sympathy in my opinion, the problem is the canadian communist party is very nationalist and anti-american influence, so some of this nationalism inevitably turn to anti-secession movement.

the 1995 proposals would still mean alot of economic cooperation between canada and quebec, i really don't see how we can be more dependant of the usa than we are right now.

[Soseloshvili]

well perhaps there are better symbols to attack, personally i would feel bad if they attacked a synagogue but not if they burn the flag as it represents the government, for example the flq blew up post-canada boxes.

Gee, that sure was smart. Blowing up post offices, harming workers because the Canadian Postal Service represented anglo-Imperialism. Gimme a break.

I've already explained that it's the flag of a people, the Israelis, not a flag of an ideology. That's like saying that the flag of Québec doesn't represent Québécois people, but Québec Separatism.


i still don't see how that leaves quebec and canada vulnerable, we export electricity to the usa so we do have some lever over them. look at how stephen harper sucked to america in the wood crisis. there wouldn't be any difference. those small latin american countries are very different, the usa install puppet dictatorship over there.

America controls the majority of the world's wealth and has leverage over every country, even Capitalist giants like China. It is the leading political, military, cultural and economic force on the planet. I have no doubt that if Québec separated and became Socialist that we would see another Grenada at the first opportunity. They absolutely have the potential to dominate us in every single way if we are divided, at least united we can resist American Imperialism to some degree.


god you are such a demagogues, the french revolution had much more leftist flair than it used to be especially the sans culotte and robespierre. it doesn't matter what terms we use.

The French revolution was bourgeois revolution as well. The difference between France and Québec is that France had subsequent working class revolutions like the 1848 revolution or the Paris Commune. Québec remained in an almost feudal state for the next 100 years or more.


we don't force anyone to learn our language more than ontario does, yet we are a threatened minority. correct me if i am wrong, but quebec with the law 103 now has more rights for the anglophone then francophones have in ontario, since francophone in ontario cannot go through a private school in order to enter a franco-ontarian school.

Sure they can. People here do it all the time... come from the French language private system to go to the bilingual Public Secondary School. I don't know what you're talking about, you're allowed to jump from private to public at any time.

Right. Québec has Bill 101. That means that if I want to go to school and learn English, even if my parents don't, I can't. Any adopted anglophone into a French family couldn't go to an English school. Any anglophone raised by francophone grandparents but who had anglophone parents couldn't go to an English school. The list goes on and on. Not to mention that you're not actually allowed to put a sign only in English in Québec.

Right now if I felt like it I could start taking my education in French. On top of that I could chose to open a business right now and serve people only in French if I was so inclined. Don't try to tell me that that Québec is more linguistically liberal than Ontario.


have you ever read lenin? national war of liberation are a-okay. every oppressed nation in the world should be liberated and if anything, communist assisting them will give respect among the population for they understand their plight. sure we are internationalist, but that would be in the framework on equality between nations. as for stateless socialism i welcome it but only when there is no longer imperialism. and i will state it again, it is always right to rebel against the oppressor. our nationalism is liberation nationalism and it is just.

Wars of liberation are okay when you're actually oppressed. I'd have no problem with a war of liberation of say, Kurds because they are an oppressed people. You, as much as you like to make yourself believe, are not oppressed. In fact, there's been very little of this oppression within the past 100 years, now the situation in Québec is actually reversing, Francophones oppressing Anglophones.


i am not a linguistic nationalist, the PQ is trying this retarded line and it is reactionary, what i was envisioning was an english community in quebec after independance who identify as quebecois instead of canadians, for the record i have no problem with anyone identifying to any nation and living in quebec, they are still civic quebecois and i won't mind considering them members of my nations,or compatriot just to tease you in fact, i don't give a shit if you are a member of my nation or not.

Again: why do they have to be considered Québécois to live in Québéc? Here in Ontario a Québécois can come live here, thrive in the French community, participate in Ontarian matters and still be a Québécois, not an Ontarian. Why does an anglophone have to be a Québécois, what if he rejects the notion of Québec as an entity? What if he finds it offensive to be referred to as something that he is obviously not and be told by the state that he is a Québécois? Why must he feel a sense of pride to Québec, in any way what-so-ever? And I'm the chauvanist.


DAMN, finally something reasonable out of a canadian communist when it comes to independance.

this small faction you call are arguing for independance, we won the 1995 referendum but the canadian state cheated us of it. we would not do independance undemocratically.

As for the party, the program was shared by both the CPC and the PCQ, the PCQ could not argue and state it was for independance without the PCC agreeing. beside they were not asking the oppressor state, they were asking member of the oppressor state who are communist, there should have been more sympathy in my opinion, the problem is the canadian communist party is very nationalist and anti-american influence, so some of this nationalism inevitably turn to anti-secession movement.

the 1995 proposals would still mean alot of economic cooperation between canada and quebec, i really don't see how we can be more dependant of the usa than we are right now.

So the moment I offer up something remotely close to your Nationalist cause, I'm "reasonable". Right.

I'm saying a referendum doesn't have to be called every 10 years to determine if independence is an issue. Twice now there have been referendums on Québec's independence, twice the answer has been "no". How were you in any way cheated out of the 1995 referendum? Explain.

Your party was in the wrong. My party's policy is that if Québec decides to push for independance in a majority, we can't really disagree. What we will not do is isolate ourselves from the majority of the population by declaring ourselves full-fledged Separatists. Your faction, with its Nationalist ideals, turned its nose up at us, walked out, and in the process destroyed the only slightly influential Communist Party in the province.

We can be more dependant. Canada has the capability to be a fairly important trading power in the world right now. By dividing ourselves in half one of us, Canada or Québec, will become a place for foreigners to set up shop so that we can prop up our economies. I know that to some degree this is happening right now, but it would only worsen with separation.

[GreenCommunism]

Gee, that sure was smart. Blowing up post offices, harming workers because the Canadian Postal Service represented anglo-Imperialism. Gimme a break.

I've already explained that it's the flag of a people, the Israelis, not a flag of an ideology. That's like saying that the flag of Québec doesn't represent Québécois people, but Québec Separatism.


post office box, not a post office, very little people have actually being harmed, so stop assuming, they were a symbol. just like people used to make graphiti over nazi graphiti in germany. and actually the flq flag represented separatism , so federalist could burn it i suppose.


America controls the majority of the world's wealth and has leverage over every country, even Capitalist giants like China. It is the leading political, military, cultural and economic force on the planet. I have no doubt that if Québec separated and became Socialist that we would see another Grenada at the first opportunity. They absolutely have the potential to dominate us in every single way if we are divided, at least united we can resist American Imperialism to some degree.

i argue there won't be any difference.


The French revolution was bourgeois revolution as well. The difference between France and Québec is that France had subsequent working class revolutions like the 1848 revolution or the Paris Commune. Québec remained in an almost feudal state for the next 100 years or more.

yes but read up robespierre.


Sure they can. People here do it all the time... come from the French language private system to go to the bilingual Public Secondary School. I don't know what you're talking about, you're allowed to jump from private to public at any time.

Right. Québec has Bill 101. That means that if I want to go to school and learn English, even if my parents don't, I can't. Any adopted anglophone into a French family couldn't go to an English school. Any anglophone raised by francophone grandparents but who had anglophone parents couldn't go to an English school. The list goes on and on. Not to mention that you're not actually allowed to put a sign only in English in Québec.

Right now if I felt like it I could start taking my education in French. On top of that I could chose to open a business right now and serve people only in French if I was so inclined. Don't try to tell me that that Québec is more linguistically liberal than Ontario.

this is bullshit, you can't go to a french public school without having parents who are french speakers.

Wars of liberation are okay when you're actually oppressed. I'd have no problem with a war of liberation of say, Kurds because they are an oppressed people. You, as much as you like to make yourself believe, are not oppressed. In fact, there's been very little of this oppression within the past 100 years, now the situation in Québec is actually reversing, Francophones oppressing Anglophones.

we are oppressed, and this is paranoia, there is no way francophones are oppressing the anglophones. this is crazy.


Again: why do they have to be considered Québécois to live in Québéc? Here in Ontario a Québécois can come live here, thrive in the French community, participate in Ontarian matters and still be a Québécois, not an Ontarian. Why does an anglophone have to be a Québécois, what if he rejects the notion of Québec as an entity? What if he finds it offensive to be referred to as something that he is obviously not and be told by the state that he is a Québécois? Why must he feel a sense of pride to Québec, in any way what-so-ever? And I'm the chauvanist.

what !! they can live in quebec if they want to, stop purposely misunderstanding what im saying. he is a quebecois citizen, therefor he is quebecois. if he wants to identify as anything it is his choice, i was merely thinking of anglo-phone quebecois who would identify as such, and i welcome them as part of the nation. i would actually be thrilled to find anglophone in favor of independance, just like i am thrilled whenever i see an immigrants being in favor of independance, to be honest, reading the RRQ it is written that many immigrants are tired of being refered to as allophone or newcomers, they are quebecois and this is what they identify as.


So the moment I offer up something remotely close to your Nationalist cause, I'm "reasonable". Right.

I'm saying a referendum doesn't have to be called every 10 years to determine if independence is an issue. Twice now there have been referendums on Québec's independence, twice the answer has been "no". How were you in any way cheated out of the 1995 referendum? Explain.

Your party was in the wrong. My party's policy is that if Québec decides to push for independance in a majority, we can't really disagree. What we will not do is isolate ourselves from the majority of the population by declaring ourselves full-fledged Separatists. Your faction, with its Nationalist ideals, turned its nose up at us, walked out, and in the process destroyed the only slightly influential Communist Party in the province.

We can be more dependant. Canada has the capability to be a fairly important trading power in the world right now. By dividing ourselves in half one of us, Canada or Québec, will become a place for foreigners to set up shop so that we can prop up our economies. I know that to some degree this is happening right now, but it would only worsen with separation.

no the moment you actually state that it is up to us to choose, you are being reasonable.

why not called every 10 years? the 1995 referendum was stolen by the money, by the speed in which new immigrants were given citizenship since they often vote against it, by allowing canadian students in universities to vote against it. and many other deceitful way, the simple fact that there was not equal spending, and in fact, ILLEGAL, spending by the federalist means the whole game is unfair.

our party already believed in independance, and we wanted to argue for it as loud as we wanted to, the communist party of canada's structure did not allow us to do so. i understand that it would be hard to make the population swallow this in canada so in fact, the structure was wrong, there should have simply been a separate programme for the communist party of quebec.

we did not destroy the only slightly influential party, we are still alive and kicking gears.



We can be more dependant. Canada has the capability to be a fairly important trading power in the world right now.

and so does quebec, we have ressources if you didnt already know.

By dividing ourselves in half one of us, Canada or Québec, will become a place for foreigners to set up shop so that we can prop up our economies

dam foreigners eh.


I know that to some degree this is happening right now, but it would only worsen with separation.

why would it do so, since we would be in a economic partnership, and why can't we bargain together either. if quebec and canada have a good relationship there is no reason for us not to bargain together.

[Soseloshvili]

post office box, not a post office, very little people have actually being harmed, so stop assuming, they were a symbol. just like people used to make graphiti over nazi graphiti in germany. and actually the flq flag represented separatism , so federalist could burn it i suppose.[QUOTE=GreenCommunism;1882491]

That's exactly my point. The Canadian flag doesn't represent Capitalism's oppression of Québec, it represents Canadian people. So don't burn our flag, you'd be pissed off if we burned yours.

[QUOTE=GreenCommunism;1882491]yes but read up robespierre.

I know of Maximilien Robespierre. He was still a bourgeois, and a tyrant at that. Why do you bring him up?


this is bullshit, you can't go to a french public school without having parents who are french speakers.

Actually you're wrong, that's only in Québec. That's what I was talking about with bill 101 and such, it actually prevents you from going to an English school unless one of your legal guardians speaks English. We have no law like that here.


we are oppressed, and this is paranoia, there is no way francophones are oppressing the anglophones. this is crazy.

What, just because they're Francophones they must be the embodiment of the proletariat? Give me a break.

I'm not acting as if it's universal, I'm explicitly arguing against that. But to say that there aren't places where the Québécois act as an oppressor-class is to be wilfully blind. To say the opposite, that the English never act as an oppressor-class to the French, would also be blind.

Why do you deny that a Québécois élite could exist? Of course it can, any people of any race or background can be an oppressor class, given the right circumstances. Take the Cuban people, during the Cuban revolution it was very much so a struggle against American Imperialist oppression, however, there was also very much so a Cuban oppressor-class, independent of the American Imperialists, that they had to contend with. This was because of situations that had formed long before the Americans intervention in Cuba, during the years of Spanish rule. Same goes for Québec.


what !! they can live in quebec if they want to, stop purposely misunderstanding what im saying. he is a quebecois citizen, therefor he is quebecois. if he wants to identify as anything it is his choice, i was merely thinking of anglo-phone quebecois who would identify as such, and i welcome them as part of the nation. i would actually be thrilled to find anglophone in favor of independance, just like i am thrilled whenever i see an immigrants being in favor of independance, to be honest, reading the RRQ it is written that many immigrants are tired of being refered to as allophone or newcomers, they are quebecois and this is what they identify as.

Okay. What if the majority of anglophones choose to identify as Canadians, not Québécois? They consider Québec as part of Canada, not independent. What is your stance on those individuals, who actively oppose Québec's independence yet still wish to live there?


no the moment you actually state that it is up to us to choose, you are being reasonable.

why not called every 10 years? the 1995 referendum was stolen by the money, by the speed in which new immigrants were given citizenship since they often vote against it, by allowing canadian students in universities to vote against it. and many other deceitful way, the simple fact that there was not equal spending, and in fact, ILLEGAL, spending by the federalist means the whole game is unfair.

Why not hold a referendum every 10 years? Because that would basically be just a constant push for a different result from the sovereigntists. We've had two, which to the best of my knowledge have been completely democratic, in the past 3 decades we've already had two, each time with the same result, so why bring up the issue again and again, seriously.

Wow, so you suggest that only Québécois should be able to vote? Canadians who are actually living in Québec shouldn't have had the ability to help determine something that will obviously affect their future?

Unequal spending isn't deceitful. It just means that the federalists REALLY REALLY REALLY didn't want to lose, and that the sovereigntists were confident enough that Québec would choose correctly that they didn't spend as much money as the other side during the campaign. It's not as if each side was told how much it could spend and the Federalists got more.

Also consider this. During the 1995 referendum, all areas inhabited by Acadians in the East didn't vote for independence, as did all the areas inhabited mainly by Native Americans. In all cities (except Montréal which voted mainly "no", but that was to be expected), even in Québec city, the vote was always very very close. Only in the countryside was there a strong push for "yes", which means they voted mainly out of petty Nationalism.


our party already believed in independance, and we wanted to argue for it as loud as we wanted to, the communist party of canada's structure did not allow us to do so. i understand that it would be hard to make the population swallow this in canada so in fact, the structure was wrong, there should have simply been a separate programme for the communist party of quebec.

You argued your case, and the party made some changes to the program reflecting basically what I've said all along, if there is a big enough push for it from the workers of Québec, why not? But they stopped short of advocating full independence.

Because of your faction's Nationalist nature, this wasn't good enough for you.


we did not destroy the only slightly influential party, we are still alive and kicking gears.

Right. Then tell me, why isn't your party putting out a successful newspaper, like the CPC? We actually had a semi-successful newspaper in French, Clarté, until your faction up and left.




and so does quebec, we have ressources if you didnt already know.

Actually no, you don't. And neither does Anglophone Canada. Because an independent Québec would be a country with a population of only 8 million, smaller than a lot of U.S. states, even small ones like New Jersey. And Canada would have only 26 million, less than the state of California.

Than think. We are rich with natural resources and lacking in people. America, with it's amazing potential to generate Capital in foreign countries, would have the capacity to hold quite a bit of leverage over a country of 8 million with plenty of natural resources.

That's not to mention that Canada's policy of multiculturalism is the product of the biculturalism of our unification. If we separate, what's to keep Québec or Canada from degenerating into a slightly Fascist state similar to the U.S.A, with its ultranationalism. Unity prevents this.


dam foreigners eh.

I was referring to foreign corporations, which have been taking over here and destroying the gains won by workers against Canadian corporations. Don't try to be a demagogue and portray me as a Fascist.


why would it do so, since we would be in a economic partnership, and why can't we bargain together either. if quebec and canada have a good relationship there is no reason for us not to bargain together.

Right, like an independent, Nationalist Québec would want anything economically to do with Canada. I though you were against association-independence?

[GreenCommunism]

That's exactly my point. The Canadian flag doesn't represent Capitalism's oppression of Québec, it represents Canadian people. So don't burn our flag, you'd be pissed off if we burned yours.

your party said the total opposite

I know of Maximilien Robespierre. He was still a bourgeois, and a tyrant at that. Why do you bring him up?

his origins and action are inconsequential, he was the extreme-left of the french parliament.

What, just because they're Francophones they must be the embodiment of the proletariat? Give me a break.

I'm not acting as if it's universal, I'm explicitly arguing against that. But to say that there aren't places where the Québécois act as an oppressor-class is to be wilfully blind. To say the opposite, that the English never act as an oppressor-class to the French, would also be blind.

Why do you deny that a Québécois élite could exist? Of course it can, any people of any race or background can be an oppressor class, given the right circumstances. Take the Cuban people, during the Cuban revolution it was very much so a struggle against American Imperialist oppression, however, there was also very much so a Cuban oppressor-class, independent of the American Imperialists, that they had to contend with. This was because of situations that had formed long before the Americans intervention in Cuba, during the years of Spanish rule. Same goes for Québec.

it is insane to believe the quebecois are oppressing the canadians as a whole. you know very well what i meant.


Okay. What if the majority of anglophones choose to identify as Canadians, not Québécois? They consider Québec as part of Canada, not independent. What is your stance on those individuals, who actively oppose Québec's independence yet still wish to live there?


why are you being a pain in the ass on purpose. they can identify with any nation they want to and live where i am. i am only excited by the prospect of an anglophone community who is truly quebecois in all aspects and roots for the montreal canadians, or the soon to come team in quebec city. you know why? because i am not a chauvinist nationalist like you, i actually enjoy real multiculturalism instead of shoving english down the throat of my people.


You argued your case, and the party made some changes to the program reflecting basically what I've said all along, if there is a big enough push for it from the workers of Québec, why not? But they stopped short of advocating full independence.

Because of your faction's Nationalist nature, this wasn't good enough for you.

demi-measures is bullshit, my party wanted to argue for independance, my party wanted to be recognize as a party in favor of independance in front of the people. for long the communist party of canada has ignored our status of colonized people, communists are not perfect beings, they are just as racist as others.

Right. Then tell me, why isn't your party putting out a successful newspaper, like the CPC? We actually had a semi-successful newspaper in French, Clarté, until your faction up and left.

it was too much trouble and we lack the staff to do it, we lost several key members also, i am working on learning programs to work on bringing back the newspaper and other media publications thank you.


Actually no, you don't. And neither does Anglophone Canada. Because an independent Québec would be a country with a population of only 8 million, smaller than a lot of U.S. states, even small ones like New Jersey. And Canada would have only 26 million, less than the state of California.

Than think. We are rich with natural resources and lacking in people. America, with it's amazing potential to generate Capital in foreign countries, would have the capacity to hold quite a bit of leverage over a country of 8 million with plenty of natural resources.

That's not to mention that Canada's policy of multiculturalism is the product of the biculturalism of our unification. If we separate, what's to keep Québec or Canada from degenerating into a slightly Fascist state similar to the U.S.A, with its ultranationalism. Unity prevents this.

how can you even call canada multiculturalist, it is assimilationist bullshit. there is no extreme-right in canada or quebec. the only political party to have said something remotely racist are the autonomist, our nationalist parties never did. the danger resides in the nationalist who want to stay in canada, not the independantist who dream of freedom and internationalism. beside, the fascist threat nowdays is a fucking joke.

Right, like an independent, Nationalist Québec would want anything economically to do with Canada. I though you were against association-independence?

right, like an independant, nationalist Canada would want anything economically to do with Quebec. no i'm not against association-independance. but i wonder if my party follows this line or not. i'll have to look with them. to be honest i don't care either way.


Why not hold a referendum every 10 years? Because that would basically be just a constant push for a different result from the sovereigntists. We've had two, which to the best of my knowledge have been completely democratic, in the past 3 decades we've already had two, each time with the same result, so why bring up the issue again and again, seriously.

Wow, so you suggest that only Québécois should be able to vote? Canadians who are actually living in Québec shouldn't have had the ability to help determine something that will obviously affect their future?

Unequal spending isn't deceitful. It just means that the federalists REALLY REALLY REALLY didn't want to lose, and that the sovereigntists were confident enough that Québec would choose correctly that they didn't spend as much money as the other side during the campaign. It's not as if each side was told how much it could spend and the Federalists got more.

Also consider this. During the 1995 referendum, all areas inhabited by Acadians in the East didn't vote for independence, as did all the areas inhabited mainly by Native Americans. In all cities (except Montréal which voted mainly "no", but that was to be expected), even in Québec city, the vote was always very very close. Only in the countryside was there a strong push for "yes", which means they voted mainly out of petty Nationalism.


LOL, THEY REALLY REALLY REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE. who are you kidding, they used their superior money to outspend us into submission. it was ILLEGAL.

yes anglophones in quebec should be able to vote, however, students who are merely visiting for a week should not be able to.

It's not as if each side was told how much it could spend and the Federalists got more.

actually yes, there were limits, and we didn't break it, and the federalist broke it.


Also consider this. During the 1995 referendum, all areas inhabited by Acadians in the East didn't vote for independence, as did all the areas inhabited mainly by Native Americans. In all cities (except Montréal which voted mainly "no", but that was to be expected), even in Québec city, the vote was always very very close. Only in the countryside was there a strong push for "yes", which means they voted mainly out of petty Nationalism.

you hold very hateful ideas for the countryside, the acadians and the natives have no nationalism? could it be that they voted because they were scared of their situation?

[danyboy27]

http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/une-autre-%C3%A9conomie-est-possible-2e-cercle


yea right, another controlling state, that just what we might need!






http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/la-d%C3%A9mocratisation-des-relations-de-travail-du-mythe-%C3%A0-la-r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9
[/URL]
yea, Union leader and rich bourgeois Journalists will explain us how democratisation in a workplace mean! fuck that, Unionism wont solve any problem, only cause more irritation.




[URL]http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/manif-nationale-pour-un-v%C3%A9ritable-plan-de-lutte-%C3%A0-la-pauvret%C3%A9 (http://www.quebecsolidaire.net/evenement/2010-09/manif-nationale-pour-un-v%C3%A9ritable-plan-de-lutte-%C3%A0-la-pauvret%C3%A9)

yea yea, they got the ''solutions'' right....

[GreenCommunism]

yea right, another controlling state, that just what we might need!

are you an anarchist or what?


yea, Union leader and rich bourgeois Journalists will explain us how democratisation in a workplace mean! fuck that, Unionism wont solve any problem, only cause more irritation.


yea yea, they got the ''solutions'' right....

the communist party has the solution to workplace democracy and poverty. quebec solidaire is our platform to express our voice and a way to fight neo-liberal policies, because you probably didn't get it yet, every other party has adopted neo-liberal orthodoxy except quebec solidaire.

stop being such a negative nancy, what other political party even mention those issues?

[Soseloshvili]

your party said the total opposite

When has the party ever said that... I know they considered not using the maple leaf in its symbol because it might represent anglo-imperialism to Québécois workers, but that's it


his origins and action are inconsequential, he was the extreme-left of the french parliament.

So? What does he have to do with anything, he was the leader of the extreme left during the French Revolution. He didn't advocate working class ideas, to very best of my knowledge.


it is insane to believe the quebecois are oppressing the canadians as a whole. you know very well what i meant.

You obviously haven't paid attention to everything I've written up to this point. I specifically said that they are not oppressing Canadians as a whole. My point was that neither Canadians nor Québécois are entirely an oppressor-class over one another, the truth is somewhere inbetween.


why are you being a pain in the ass on purpose. they can identify with any nation they want to and live where i am. i am only excited by the prospect of an anglophone community who is truly quebecois in all aspects and roots for the montreal canadians, or the soon to come team in quebec city. you know why? because i am not a chauvinist nationalist like you, i actually enjoy real multiculturalism instead of shoving english down the throat of my people.

Oh, I see. The way you worded it made you seem like you wanted all anglophones in Québec to identify as Québécois.

Right, we're the ones shoving English down your throats. I point to bill 101, which essentially means your shoving French down English throats. You can't put up an English only sign in Québec. You can't go to an English school in Québec unless one of your legal guardians speaks French. Am I missing anything?


demi-measures is bullshit, my party wanted to argue for independance, my party wanted to be recognize as a party in favor of independance in front of the people. for long the communist party of canada has ignored our status of colonized people, communists are not perfect beings, they are just as racist as others.

There's my point. You have to realize that not all of Québec is actually in favour of independence... by doing that we could isolate ourselves from the working class.

Colonized people? Give me a break. You are not colonized. In fact, if we want to get history straight, you are colonizers. French Canadian Jesuits were reponsible for the early conversion camps forced upon Native Americans, the city I live in was founded as a Jesuit school for the Cayuga people.

Yes, in the year 1759 New France was defeated and conquered by the English. However the immediate afteraffects (the right of Québec to its own government, laws, language and religion) gave you more freedom than you'd ever even had under the French.

You are an integral part of this country, in every way equal to the other provinces in this country and in many cases you have more rights than any other province in this country. If you say Québec has no say in what happens in parliament that's bullshit, Québec has more seats than any other province except Ontario.


it was too much trouble and we lack the staff to do it, we lost several key members also, i am working on learning programs to work on bringing back the newspaper and other media publications thank you.
I will be the first to help, if such a thing comes into being


how can you even call canada multiculturalist, it is assimilationist bullshit. there is no extreme-right in canada or quebec. the only political party to have said something remotely racist are the autonomist, our nationalist parties never did. the danger resides in the nationalist who want to stay in canada, not the independantist who dream of freedom and internationalism. beside, the fascist threat nowdays is a fucking joke.

Obviously you don't follow politics outside of Québec to closely. In Calgary there's basically a war between Anti-Fascist Action of Calgary and the Aryan Gaurd, I believe they're called. There are Fascist groups in the west, and with Québec gone the West would have far more power, giving these guys a shot at actually meaning something.
Uh, I can call Canada multicultural because it's kind of what the government decided our national policy is like 30 years ago. Originally Canada promoted biculturalism, referring to the French and English cultures, however this was scrapped during the Trudeau era.

A little proof of the Nationalism behind the Québec sovereignty movement: Many influential Québécois separatists have criticized multiculturalism as a policy for Québec, they believe there should be Interculturalism, meaning immigrants should be allowed but should have to assimilate into French languages and culture. Like I said before, linguistic imperialism.


right, like an independant, nationalist Canada would want anything economically to do with Quebec. no i'm not against association-independance. but i wonder if my party follows this line or not. i'll have to look with them. to be honest i don't care either way.

Actually they would, considering Canadians consider Québec an integral part of their society and want to cooperate with them. Very few Canadians, even on the right, are anti-Québec. They're just anti-separatist.


LOL, THEY REALLY REALLY REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE. who are you kidding, they used their superior money to outspend us into submission. it was ILLEGAL.

yes anglophones in quebec should be able to vote, however, students who are merely visiting for a week should not be able to.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the Separatists weren't required to raise funds to support their cause, like any other political movement. Give me a break. It's not like the Federalists funded their movement by robbing banks, they managed to raise more money than you by completely legal means and that was all. Besides, campaigns aren't always won by who has the most money.

Bullshit that happened. You have to register to vote in this country, you can't just walk up and sign a ballot. You have to have proof of residency in Québec to vote in Québec, it's the same here in Canada.

Instead of excepting that you lost in a democratic referendum TWICE, you blame it on "corruption". Typical.


actually yes, there were limits, and we didn't break it, and the federalist broke it.

Were you each given the same amount of money to spend by the government, if any? I highly doubt that the government openly favoured one faction, whether the Federalists managed to raise more money privately than your faction is irrelevant.


you hold very hateful ideas for the countryside, the acadians and the natives have no nationalism? could it be that they voted because they were scared of their situation?

Yea, because they were scared of the situation. They were scared of the possibility of Québec treating them like shit and expecting them to assimilate, with their policy of "interculuralism" and all. That's a legitimate fear.

Acadians aren't Nationalist... they pride themselves on being Maritimers, Canadians and Acadians. Unlike most Québécois, Acadians don't consider themselves different than Canadians (even though Acadians are far more different from Canadians than Québécois are).

It could also be that they voted because they, you know, actually support the Federalist point of view.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

they pride themselves on being Maritimers, Canadians and Acadians. Unlike most Québécois, Acadians don't consider themselves different than Canadians (even though Acadians are far more different from Canadians than Québécois are).

Fuck you, don't speak for me.

[GreenCommunism]

There's my point. You have to realize that not all of Québec is actually in favour of independence... by doing that we could isolate ourselves from the working class.

Colonized people? Give me a break. You are not colonized. In fact, if we want to get history straight, you are colonizers. French Canadian Jesuits were reponsible for the early conversion camps forced upon Native Americans, the city I live in was founded as a Jesuit school for the Cayuga people.

Yes, in the year 1759 New France was defeated and conquered by the English. However the immediate afteraffects (the right of Québec to its own government, laws, language and religion) gave you more freedom than you'd ever even had under the French.

You are an integral part of this country, in every way equal to the other provinces in this country and in many cases you have more rights than any other province in this country. If you say Québec has no say in what happens in parliament that's bullshit, Québec has more seats than any other province except Ontario.

you should read the flq archive. http://www.marxists.org/history/canada/quebec/flq/index.htm

as for the seats, what the fuck is this supposed to mean.



Right, we're the ones shoving English down your throats. I point to bill 101, which essentially means your shoving French down English throats. You can't put up an English only sign in Québec. You can't go to an English school in Québec unless one of your legal guardians speaks French. Am I missing anything?

yes bill 101 made by us. also, you can't go to a french school in ontario unless one of your legal guardian speaks french. am i missing something?


Obviously you don't follow politics outside of Québec to closely. In Calgary there's basically a war between Anti-Fascist Action of Calgary and the Aryan Gaurd, I believe they're called. There are Fascist groups in the west, and with Québec gone the West would have far more power, giving these guys a shot at actually meaning something.
Uh, I can call Canada multicultural because it's kind of what the government decided our national policy is like 30 years ago. Originally Canada promoted biculturalism, referring to the French and English cultures, however this was scrapped during the Trudeau era.

A little proof of the Nationalism behind the Québec sovereignty movement: Many influential Québécois separatists have criticized multiculturalism as a policy for Québec, they believe there should be Interculturalism, meaning immigrants should be allowed but should have to assimilate into French languages and culture. Like I said before, linguistic imperialism.

well i wouldn't have any problem with assisting comrades in another country though i'm not sure i agree with violence or that i could even participate in it.


A little proof of the Nationalism behind the Québec sovereignty movement: Many influential Québécois separatists have criticized multiculturalism as a policy for Québec, they believe there should be Interculturalism, meaning immigrants should be allowed but should have to assimilate into French languages and culture. Like I said before, linguistic imperialism.

either they are assimilationist idiot, or they criticize CANADIAN multiculturalism. beside, it is much easier to understand since quebec culture is threatened as opposed to the canadian culture.


Actually they would, considering Canadians consider Québec an integral part of their society and want to cooperate with them. Very few Canadians, even on the right, are anti-Québec. They're just anti-separatist.

oh cut this bullshit, racism is on both side, what about don cherry, what about the anti-quebec sentiment page on wikipedia? we tried as best as we can to live within canada . it has miserably failed.


Were you each given the same amount of money to spend by the government, if any? I highly doubt that the government openly favoured one faction, whether the Federalists managed to raise more money privately than your faction is irrelevant.

1. they did favor one faction, the gouvernement is federalist. 2. there were spending LIMITS, which the federalist camp cheated on.

Yea, because they were scared of the situation. They were scared of the possibility of Québec treating them like shit and expecting them to assimilate, with their policy of "interculuralism" and all. That's a legitimate fear.

Acadians aren't Nationalist... they pride themselves on being Maritimers, Canadians and Acadians. Unlike most Québécois, Acadians don't consider themselves different than Canadians (even though Acadians are far more different from Canadians than Québécois are).

It could also be that they voted because they, you know, actually support the Federalist point of view.

yes, and when the jewish community overwhelmingly vote against independance, it causes anti-semitism, when the italian community overwhelmingly vote against independance, it causes racism and so on . this is why the quebec independance movement is moving to the right, and this is why we try to navigate the boat to the left, we need those communities to vote like us, even if we lose another referendum and independance never happens, if we can only get those populations to vote in favor of independance as a whole or at least equal to us i would consider it a victory.

[GreenCommunism]

do you read french well my bilingual canadian friend ?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9f%C3%A9rendum_de_1995_au_Qu%C3%A9bec#Contro verse_au_sujet_du_d.C3.A9roulement_du_r.C3.A9f.C3. A9rendum

immigrants who are not from french speaking countries like haiti has overwhelmingly voted against. there has been a far too high number of naturalization during 1995, also there was 54 000 people without a sun card ( healthcare card) who voted. it is fraud,

the referendum was lost by about 30 000-40 000 votes. it was stolen, there are many different scandals, including one that was in favor of independance which was 5 500 people losing their vote, but the fraud was by far in favor of the federalist camp.

[Soseloshvili]

Fuck you, don't speak for me.

Touchy. That's just the feeling I've got from the Acadians I have met. No offense intended.

[Soseloshvili]

you should read the flq archive. http://www.marxists.org/history/canada/quebec/flq/index.htm

Unlike you I'm not averse to reading things that contradict my opinion, I've read a lot of the FLQ archive. I'm using "The Canadian Communist Party and the Independence of Quebec" in an article as we speak.


as for the seats, what the fuck is this supposed to mean.

That means that in our current governing body, you are fairly represented. What the hell else could it mean.


yes bill 101 made by us. also, you can't go to a french school in ontario unless one of your legal guardian speaks french. am i missing something?

You really don't follow anything outside of Quebec, do you? Yes, in Ontario, you can go to school in French. I have an anglophone friend who went to the local French school because he wanted to improve his French. We were the ones who actually whined and nagged when Quebec put bill 101 into effect (which I may remind you, is a pathetic nationalist law that has been criticized by the United Nations for its linguistic imperialism).


either they are assimilationist idiot, or they criticize CANADIAN multiculturalism. beside, it is much easier to understand since quebec culture is threatened as opposed to the canadian culture.

I'll repeat: many Quebec separatists support Interculturalism, a policy which believes immigrants should be treated fairly but should give up their language and culture rights and assimilate. They are a crazy minority, it's a real and major belief of your ideology. Why you don't know this, I have no idea.

Actually no, they're just opposed to multiculturalism because that puts English and French at the same level. Separatists just want French to be superior. I'm still not seeing how this is in any way not Nationalist, chauvanist and inclining towards Fascist, with this view of competing nations of which one must be the strongest.


oh cut this bullshit, racism is on both side, what about don cherry, what about the anti-quebec sentiment page on wikipedia? we tried as best as we can to live within canada . it has miserably failed.

What did Don Cherry ever do, tell me I'm unaware. Yes there is some anti-quebec sentiment among the traditionalist Canadian opinion, but it's not all to common. I hardly ever here French Canadians insulted... maybe it's just because of where I live, I don't know.


1. they did favor one faction, the gouvernement is federalist. 2. there were spending LIMITS, which the federalist camp cheated on.

Favouring is a lot different than supporting, get your facts straight. By the way, I hope you know our government (the dreaded anglo-chauvanist one) has declared Quebec's separation legal so long as its done through a legal referendum.

So? Oh my god, they broke the spending limit by their own initiative! Pfft.


yes, and when the jewish community overwhelmingly vote against independance, it causes anti-semitism, when the italian community overwhelmingly vote against independance, it causes racism and so on . this is why the quebec independance movement is moving to the right, and this is why we try to navigate the boat to the left, we need those communities to vote like us, even if we lose another referendum and independance never happens, if we can only get those populations to vote in favor of independance as a whole or at least equal to us i would consider it a victory.

They don't vote for you because only a Nationalist would possibly do so. The Quebec separatist movement started out as a movement of the right, periodically changed to the left and is now rightist again. Don't kid yourself.

Maybe the reason it caused those feelings is because of the pent up existance of them all along? As Nationalists, you invariably believe your people have more of a right to their own liberty than others. This is proven through interculturalism. When other ethnic minorities who thrive under the policy of multiculturalism, meaning that all peoples are equal, vote against this Nationalism it's easy to scapegoat them.

[GreenCommunism]

That means that in our current governing body, you are fairly represented. What the hell else could it mean.

yes and other political parties don't want to form governments with us, dirty separatist.

I'll repeat: many Quebec separatists support Interculturalism, a policy which believes immigrants should be treated fairly but should give up their language and culture rights and assimilate. They are a crazy minority, it's a real and major belief of your ideology. Why you don't know this, I have no idea.

Actually no, they're just opposed to multiculturalism because that puts English and French at the same level. Separatists just want French to be superior. I'm still not seeing how this is in any way not Nationalist, chauvanist and inclining towards Fascist, with this view of competing nations of which one must be the strongest.

who the fuck are you to claim you know my ideology? we are a people threatened with the destruction of our language, and you dare call us fascist? who the fuck are we supposed to attack? this is bullshit anyway, many hard nationalist are very open to other cultures. by having english education they do not integrate into society, many people assimilate easily in our society just like the haitians for example, and for others it takes more time, the population just happens to be more impatient with them, and with canada there is frankly no good reason to even integrate into quebec society. did you know that bilingual anglophones are poorer than pure anglophones?


What did Don Cherry ever do, tell me I'm unaware. Yes there is some anti-quebec sentiment among the traditionalist Canadian opinion, but it's not all to common. I hardly ever here French Canadians insulted... maybe it's just because of where I live, I don't know.

well anti-english sentiment is pretty rare. can you explain the gazette? they call quebec a haven for corruption in canada, isn't it ironic that it is the liberal party that is the most corrupted of all political parties, yes , the one that shove federalism down our throat.

Montreal lives in a language apartheid,


Favouring is a lot different than supporting, get your facts straight. By the way, I hope you know our government (the dreaded anglo-chauvanist one) has declared Quebec's separation legal so long as its done through a legal referendum.

So? Oh my god, they broke the spending limit by their own initiative! Pfft.

lol? they shouldn't favor either side, they declared it legal after the frigging referendum was lost. and we don't have to have a referendum, so many countries declared independence simply with a political party in power, an election is enough. if it is better to have a referendum for our own goals then alright, if not, screw you. we won't play by the rules of the oppressor, this is a mistake too many people did.

what are you talking about, the point is they spent more than they were supposed to, it was competly illegal and you dare defend fraud.


They don't vote for you because only a Nationalist would possibly do so. The Quebec separatist movement started out as a movement of the right, periodically changed to the left and is now rightist again. Don't kid yourself.

Maybe the reason it caused those feelings is because of the pent up existance of them all along? As Nationalists, you invariably believe your people have more of a right to their own liberty than others. This is proven through interculturalism. When other ethnic minorities who thrive under the policy of multiculturalism, meaning that all peoples are equal, vote against this Nationalism it's easy to scapegoat them.

it started off as pretty neutral and there were many good comrade who were in favor of independance, including from the communist party. have you really read that article about the flq? look at how the communist party of france called the algerian nationalist movement a narrow nationalism, just like the communist party of canada and you argue. face it, you are chauvinist.

they did not vote for us because they identify as canadian nationalist as opposed to quebec nationalist, the main reason was that it was only 20 years since the 1960s at the first referendum and 35 years in the next one. each time english canada claimed that a vote for no was a vote to reform canada, which never happened.

all people are not equal, our people is oppressed by your form of multiculturalism, multiculturalism only works in ontario where there is a large amount of immigrants and diferent language. there are 5 time more english speaking quebecois than there are french speaking canadians.

[danyboy27]

do you read french well my bilingual canadian friend ?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9f%C3%A9rendum_de_1995_au_Qu%C3%A9bec#Contro verse_au_sujet_du_d.C3.A9roulement_du_r.C3.A9f.C3. A9rendum

immigrants who are not from french speaking countries like haiti has overwhelmingly voted against. there has been a far too high number of naturalization during 1995, also there was 54 000 people without a sun card ( healthcare card) who voted. it is fraud,

the referendum was lost by about 30 000-40 000 votes. it was stolen, there are many different scandals, including one that was in favor of independance which was 5 500 people losing their vote, but the fraud was by far in favor of the federalist camp.
ho noes the evil foreigner supported by evil federalists plotted against the secession of quebec!
damn you, you jews, italians and haitian!!

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Touchy. That's just the feeling I've got from the Acadians I have met. No offense intended.

Fine, then say that.
If we really believe in people speaking for themselves, y'know ...

[GreenCommunism]

ho noes the evil foreigner supported by evil federalists plotted against the secession of quebec!
damn you, you jews, italians and haitian!!

the haitians voted for us. more like, the foreigners are manipulated by the evil federalist, causing racial divide getting in the way of class struggle. have you never heard of the irish immigration in canada and how it was a tool of imperialism at that time? immigration should never be a tool of imperialism, but i'm sure you think what i just said is racist because of you're ultra-leftism.

[danyboy27]

the haitians voted for us. more like, the foreigners are manipulated by the evil federalist, causing racial divide getting in the way of class struggle. have you never heard of the irish immigration in canada and how it was a tool of imperialism at that time? immigration should never be a tool of imperialism, but i'm sure you think what i just said is racist because of you're ultra-leftism.

so, what you are saying is that, most of the italian, german, japanese, chinese, all those immigrant who been allowed to live in Quebec at differents part of the history of Quebec, it was all a grand scheme to manipulate us and controling us, all along?

wow man, just wow.


yea i have to admit, i am that hardcore, i am an ultra leftist, and to be honest i can live with it quite well.

I guess, if i was a bit more right wing like you, a bit more nationalistic and french canadian chauvinist, my politics would be easier to justify.

[GreenCommunism]

so, what you are saying is that, most of the italian, german, japanese, chinese, all those immigrant who been allowed to live in Quebec at differents part of the history of Quebec, it was all a grand scheme to manipulate us and controling us, all along?

wow man, just wow.


yea i have to admit, i am that hardcore, i am an ultra leftist, and to be honest i can live with it quite well.

I guess, if i was a bit more right wing like you, a bit more nationalistic and french canadian chauvinist, my politics would be easier to justify. hmph, god your being stupid. none of those immigrants were a plot to control us except the irish, because thats what they did, they made irish came here to drown us and lower our democratic power, a very old colonialism strategy. now the irish speak french and identify with us, so there's no problem. i don't care about all those immigrants, the fact is that they identify as canadians as opposed to quebecois . and i still don't care, you are so politically correct you can't get this one without talking about racism. see what would you think of a nation like say britain taht conquers a country in africa then encourage other white nation who are already conquered by britain to immigrate there because there is alot of jobs? that would be colonialism, it's always like that. the italians were the one most opposed to bill 101, it's not a coincidence, and to be honest, i don't CARE. i'm just stating facts, but you hysterical anti-racist can't get this through your brain. as a fact, i stated that i really hope to get allies in those communities for independance, what would be racist is to assume that because of their RACE they would never vote in favor of it. i however, personally feel that natives are more important to target as they are very symbolic of the opression we caused them.

you know this kind of bullshit you pull out is just like one of the adq representative said when someone complained that there are few immigrants in the adq, he responded by saying this is insulting!
I'M AN IMMIGRANT I'M ITALIAN. like this isn't a proof of white supremacy.

isn't it great you named everyone except the irish? shows just how hysterical you are.

[danyboy27]

hmph, god your being stupid. none of those immigrants were a plot to control us except the irish, because thats what they did, they made irish came here to drown us and lower our democratic power, a very old colonialism strategy. now the irish speak french and identify with us, so there's no problem. .
yea, granted...so?





i don't care about all those immigrants, the fact is that they identify as canadians as opposed to quebecois . and i still don't care, you are so politically correct you can't get this one without talking about racism. are.
i am not politicly correct, i am a communist, i dont care about the other people language or nationalities, that why i dont give a rat ass about the spoken language of other or their nationalities, unlike you.



. see what would you think of a nation like say britain taht conquers a country in africa then encourage other white nation who are already conquered by britain to immigrate there because there is alot of jobs? that would be colonialism, it's always like that.
still, that not a reason to see Foreigner who speak english or have difference ethnicities has a threat...they been used, just like we been used, we are all brothers and sisters.


. the italians were the one most opposed to bill 101, it's not a coincidence, and to be honest, i don't CARE. .
hoo you do care who supported bill 101, only evil english speaking pro federalist would oppose to such thing!






. i'm just stating facts, but you hysterical anti-racist can't get this through your brain. as a fact, i stated that i really hope to get allies in those communities for independance, .
well thank you, i am a hysterical anti-racist who hate chauvinists like you, who believe english speaking foreigner in Quebec are a federalist threat to us, and that the only good foreigner is the one who speak french and support the separation of quebec from canada.



.

you know this kind of bullshit you pull out is just like one of the adq representative said when someone complained that there are few immigrants in the adq, he responded by saying this is insulting!

i fail to see a link between ADQ bigotry and my hatred of french canadian chauvinists who feel entitled to crusade against those who dare to speak english in Quebec.



.

I'M AN IMMIGRANT I'M ITALIAN. like this isn't a proof of white supremacy.

so? what is it supposed to mean? that its okay to be a french canadian chauvinist when you came from another country? Last time i checked sarkozy was an immigrant too.

[GreenCommunism]

almost all of what you just said is basicly bullshit. they have been used, we agree, you see racism where there isn't and that is the definition of hysterical anti-racism.

what about pro-american influence in say albania or croatia, don't you think it sucks to have a part of your population feeling culturally closer to a superpower and always taking the opinion of the colonizer, of the oppressor, i want them to be part of my oppressed nation, not a sold-out fifth column.

and they have the right to vote for whoever they want, jesus chris.

[GreenCommunism]

so? what is it supposed to mean? that its okay to be a french canadian chauvinist when you came from another country? Last time i checked sarkozy was an immigrant too.

i'm saying sarkozy is white. and if the adq has any immigrants then they are most certainly almost all white.

[danyboy27]

almost all of what you just said is basicly bullshit. they have been used, we agree, you see racism where there isn't and that is the definition of hysterical anti-racism.
.
I dont see racism but chauvinism, the feeling that x culture should prevail over the other, x language should prevail over the other. ''we are french canadian and we aint like your kind around here, speak french please or get the fuck out''

this kind of stupid chauvinism make me fucking sick, its narrow minded, elitist and stupid, no matter if its done by people speaking english, french or dutch.



what about pro-american influence in say albania or croatia, don't you think it sucks to have a part of your population feeling culturally closer to a superpower and always taking the opinion of the colonizer, of the oppressor, i want them to be part of my oppressed nation, not a sold-out fifth column.

being pro american or pro x country have nothing to do with the language or even the ethnicity of people there are ton of pro american person in Quebec who dosnt even speak english, but agree with the tenets of free market and capitalism.

Immigrants dont want to be part of an opressed nation, or a nation for that matter, they want better living condition, not being dragged in the middle of the night by militia men and have his finger cut off.
their support for the federal governement dosnt have nothing to do with real nationalism or loyalty, they just want to stay here and have a decent living, and they feel that has lomng they continue supporting the federal governement, good thing will happen.

they are not a fith column, just normal immigrants.

[Soseloshvili]

yes and other political parties don't want to form governments with us, dirty separatist.

Actually you left the NDP-Liberal-Bloc coalition, not the other parties. Remember that.


who the fuck are you to claim you know my ideology? we are a people threatened with the destruction of our language, and you dare call us fascist? who the fuck are we supposed to attack? this is bullshit anyway, many hard nationalist are very open to other cultures. by having english education they do not integrate into society, many people assimilate easily in our society just like the haitians for example, and for others it takes more time, the population just happens to be more impatient with them, and with canada there is frankly no good reason to even integrate into quebec society. did you know that bilingual anglophones are poorer than pure anglophones?

I'm not making this up or anything, it's documented and I can prove it. In 2008 the Quebec government formed a commission to do report on the success of multiculturalism in Quebec, the entire commission being made up of Quebec separatists. They reported that multiculturalism was incorrect for Quebec, and that interculturalism should be favoured.

Read it for yourself. http://www.accommodements.qc.ca/documentation/rapports/rapport-final-abrege-fr.pdf

On the subject of your language being threatened, give me a break. How many Quebecois who have francophone families are being raised in English? Virtually none. Many may learn English, true, I know they do. But that's second language, your language isn't threatened at all.

Really? Here it's the opposite, bilingual workers are paid far more. I wonder why.


well anti-english sentiment is pretty rare. can you explain the gazette? they call quebec a haven for corruption in canada, isn't it ironic that it is the liberal party that is the most corrupted of all political parties, yes , the one that shove federalism down our throat.


The Liberal party was at the head of the Quiet Revolution that brought an end to the decades of suffering under the Quebecois Nationalist group Union Nationale. They have at no point shoved federalism down your throat, it was under the Liberals that you got your referendum.


Montreal lives in a language apartheid,


Lol, don't make me laugh. Despite your movements constant allusions to it the Quebecois' "suffering" can in no way be compared to that of African Americans, Black South Africans or Palestinians. You are no oppressed... hell, Haitian immigrants (whom you seem to hate so much for their opposition to Quebec's independence) are more oppressed than you.


Language Apartheid is a colourful word. I have another one: bilingualism.


lol? they shouldn't favor either side, they declared it legal after the frigging referendum was lost. and we don't have to have a referendum, so many countries declared independence simply with a political party in power, an election is enough. if it is better to have a referendum for our own goals then alright, if not, screw you. we won't play by the rules of the oppressor, this is a mistake too many people did.


You really don't get it. Nothing, absolutely nothing illegal happened during either of the referendums. You lost legally and legitimately twice. Like I've said, if the people of Quebec want independence they can have it, but they obviously don't want it. You basically want to keep trying again and again until there's a different result. So what, after independence are you going to hold more referendums to determine whether you should rejoin? Of course not. Then tell me how demanding more and more referendums from Canada is fair. It's been done twice. It's over.



what are you talking about, the point is they spent more than they were supposed to, it was competly illegal and you dare defend fraud.


Fraud's a strong word. Going over the limit set for private fundraising isn't fraud. It may be excessive and under some municipal bylaw illegal. If you were to charge the federalist movement in some court case for that violation, they'd probably get a $100 fine.


it started off as pretty neutral and there were many good comrade who were in favor of independance, including from the communist party. have you really read that article about the flq? look at how the communist party of france called the algerian nationalist movement a narrow nationalism, just like the communist party of canada and you argue. face it, you are chauvinist.


I'm using that article right now, "The Canadian Communist Party and the Independence of Quebec"


To say the least it's mainly crap. Basically they paint the CPC as an oppressor, a defendor of the bourgeoisie. Then they paint themselves as "patriots" who "seen" (I say this jokingly, because they just decided this without any indication and to this day the majority of Quebecois dont support separatism or the FLQ) that Quebec wanted to separate.


The CPC actively defends Quebec's national rights. They just don't believe in separation as a goal. The two are separable you know.




they did not vote for us because they identify as canadian nationalist as opposed to quebec nationalist, the main reason was that it was only 20 years since the 1960s at the first referendum and 35 years in the next one. each time english canada claimed that a vote for no was a vote to reform canada, which never happened.


Actually no, that justy means they identified not as Quebecois Nationalist. They could identify as anything else, such as, say, Internationalist. You know, what Communists are supposed to be.


all people are not equal, our people is oppressed by your form of multiculturalism, multiculturalism only works in ontario where there is a large amount of immigrants and diferent language. there are 5 time more english speaking quebecois than there are french speaking canadians.


Okay, first, if it isn't working in another province that's not the fault of Ontario but the fault of provincial Nationalism. It's not my fault Quebec is plagued with Nationalists.


That's because there are more anglophones in this country than there are francophones. Quebec has always historically had a large anglophone population, the Quebecois were so secluded with in their own borders that they didn't start adventuring out until the mid 19th century.