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Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 00:12
Review of Dr Helene Guldberg's new book Just Another Ape?.

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Friday 27 August 2010
Me human, you chimp
In a sparkling, erudite polemic, Helene Guldberg demolishes the idea that apes are just like humans, and puts the case for rescuing, and celebrating, the story of our uniqueness.
Tim Black


When spiked’s Dr Helene Guldberg began doing the research for what was to become Just Another Ape?, she anticipated that the study and analysis of ape behaviour would shed some light on how humans came to be. After all, we shared a common ancestor just six million years ago – a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. It would surely be plausible, then, to expect to find a nascent form of our human abilities in our primate cousins, a seed, perhaps, of our linguistic capacity, our tool-using potential or our intense sociality.

But such insight into our human present was not forthcoming. ‘Having investigated further’, she writes, ‘I am no longer convinced that the study of apes can help explain much about human behaviour’.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Far from sheding light on the evolution of humanity, the study of apes – whether chimpanzees, bonobos or gorillas – is often used to efface that development. Distinctions are glossed, differences erased, and our uniqueness lost. It seems that the contemporary focus on ape behaviour does not allow us to see how far we have come but how near we still are. Look, run newspaper reports, they mourn like us; they use tools like us; they communicate like us. In fact, they are us! (Give or take a dragged knuckle or two.)

This sentiment is not confined to apes; it is often extended to other animals, too. In the words of the British psychologist Richard Ryder, former chair of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, to elevate humans above other species is, ‘like racism or sexism’, little more than ‘a prejudice based upon morally irrelevant physical differences’. This all-too-human discrimination, in the words of philosopher Peter Singer’s hugely influential 1975 book Animal Liberation, is nothing less than ‘species-ism’. ‘This idea’, ran a New York Times editorial from last year, ‘that we have ethical obligations that transcend our species… is one whose time appears to have come’. Indeed. Everywhere one looks these days, the supposed interests of animals are rendered equivalent to humanity’s. Long-held distinctions are increasingly blurred. But in this loss of perspective, in this tendentious drawing close of us and animals, our humanity is diminished and our vast, species-specific achievements are denigrated.

Little wonder that the contemporary obsession with animals often goes hand-in-hand with what Guldberg calls the ‘broader contempt for humanity’. This is evident in the flippancy with which our demise is speculated upon, not to mention hoped for. Upon becoming patron of the Optimum Population Trust in 2009, Sir David Attenborough declared: ‘I’ve never seen a problem that wouldn’t be easier to solve with fewer people, or harder, and ultimately impossible, with more.’ Bestselling author Lionel Shriver went further: ‘If [humans] make a mess of matters and disappear, another form of life will take our place – creatures beautiful, not so self-destructive or simply weird. That’s cheerful news, really.’ Never has callousness towards other humans seemed so at home with a love of other creatures.

While this mood of misanthropy is most definitely abroad, Guldberg is quick to point out that intuitively, experientially, most of us do value humans above animals. We may like pets, but we prefer people. For all the gee-whiz, aren’t animals amazing wildlife documentaries, we know that a cat’s ability to paw a door open, or even a chimpanzee’s dexterity with a stick when digging for termites, is far inferior to what humans have done with the microchip. We also tacitly accept that an animal’s life, in the interests of medical research for instance, is worth less than the human lives that the research might save. This ability to elevate our interests above animals does not make us sadists: it makes us human. However, as Guldberg points out, ‘the problem is that it is considered outrageously arrogant to assert this superiority’.

And that is why this sparkling, erudite polemic is so welcome. Just Another Ape? draws out, not our similarities with our closest animal relative, the ape, but our differences to it. It dwells not on the affinity between a vervet monkey’s set of alarm calls and human language, but on the near-fathomless chasm that divides them. It is what separates us from the animals that is important to Guldberg, not what binds us. Yes, we may share 98 per cent of DNA with chimpanzees, but we also share 70 per cent with yeast. Clearly biology does not exhaust our humanity. We are a bit more than our DNA. As Guldberg argues: ‘Our biology is the precondition for our humanity, but our instincts are transformed into something very different as a result of human consciousness and culture.’ Or as she puts it later in the book: ‘We need to look to cultural evolution, rather than genetic evolution, to explain the vast gulf that exists between the capabilities and achievements of humans and those of apes.’

For Guldberg, it is our culture that sets us apart from other species. That is, humans do not learn merely from those living, but from past generations, too. We do not have to re-invent everything for ourselves, from the wheel upwards – rather, we develop in an already cultivated world, one in which we learn from others and build upon existing achievements. If we are to be animals, then we are cultural animals.

Of course, there are plenty of people willing to dismiss claims made for humanity’s unique cultural ability. Apes can make history, too, primophiliacs claim. Apes accumulate knowledge, they pass on skills, and they acquire behaviours conditioned by their society. They are not simply as nature intended; they are cultivated.

Guldberg’s argument is particularly subtle here. She acknowledges that apes do seem to develop certain society-specific skills. That is, they appear to learn from one another. For instance, in 1999 developmental psychologist Andrew Whiten and colleagues reviewed existing field studies of chimpanzee behaviour and found 39 local traditions – foraging techniques, communications and grooming rituals – that were particular to specific groupings. But does this mean they are learning from others and building on past achievements in the way we understand it?

Drawing a distinction between imitation and emulation, Guldberg argues that while human infants can learn through imitating others – that is, they can grasp both the how and why of certain actions – apes, of whatever sort, tend merely to emulate. They try to reproduce the result without understanding how it was achieved. They can’t grasp the process leading to a behaviour – they can only see the product. That it takes chimps four years to develop a skill like nut-cracking suggests that they are not really learning the how and what of the process; they are simply attempting to emulate a specific behaviour. It is less a case of learning how to do something and more a laborious trial-and-error exercise – for they know not what they do.

That’s why, given the right conditions, all ape behaviour could be invented by a solitary chimp. ‘To say that there is no substantial difference between cultural transmission among apes and humans’, concludes Guldberg, ‘is like saying there is no substantial difference between a glacier and a car – both move from A to B, albeit one a lot slower than the other’.

Whether it is the ability to acquire culture – and in humanity’s case, innovate upon the acquisition – or the capacity to grasp others as intentional beings with motives, interests and rationales, humanity’s distinct capacity for culture separates us, not just from cats and dogs, but from our ape ancestors, too.

That apes can seem to behave like us is not evidence that they are like us. One of the most spectacular examples of such misapprehension comes in Guldberg’s discussion of ‘language and communication’. There she looks at Koko the gorilla, born in San Francisco Children’s Zoo in 1971, but moved to a trailer aged two and brought up like a human child. Koko now has a vocabulary of 1,300 sign-language words. On her thirty-eighth birthday in 2009, Koko reportedly signed three birthday wishes, involving future child prospects, her hopes for the Mauri wildlife preserve and a particularly plaintive one: ‘Koko hopes that people will become aware of the plight of her species before it is too late.’ Which all sounds pretty amazing.

Yet an actual transcript of another ‘conversation’ with Koko tells a different story. In response to a question as to whether she liked to chat with people, Koko responded ‘Fine nipple’. Her language coach Francine Patterson explained: ‘Nipple rhymes with people, she doesn’t sign people per se, she was trying to do a “sounds like”.’ Charades aside, the absence of grammar of even the most primitive kind, and the seeming random generation of words, suggests Koko possesses nothing like a language as we understand it. What there is, however, is a considerable amount of human interpretation when it comes to deciphering what apes are signing. Writing of Koko and her teacher in The Language Instinct, Steven Pinker was dismissive: ‘Patterson in particular has found ways to excuse Koko’s performance on the grounds that the gorilla is fond of puns, jokes, metaphors, and mischievous lies. Generally the stronger the claims made about animal’s abilities, the skimpier the data made available.’

But there is something more to this particular anecdote, something almost moving. The sheer human effort involved in showing that a gorilla is talking – Patterson’s sheer linguistic ingenuity – is not proof of a gorilla’s humanity, but of ours. Guldberg’s brilliant book reminds us why we should always keep this distinction between them and us in mind.

Tim Black is senior writer at spiked.

Just Another Ape?, by Dr Helene Guldberg, is published by Imprint Academic. (Buy this book from Amazon(UK) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1845401638/spiked).)


reprinted from: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_article/9459/

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th September 2010, 00:48
Of course, the fact that there are significant differences between humans and chimps does not justify their slaughter in the name of unsustainable forms of development.

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 10:12
Of course, the fact that there are significant differences between humans and chimps does not justify their slaughter in the name of unsustainable forms of development.

No one suggested that it does.

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th September 2010, 12:35
No one suggested that it does.

This coming from the guy who said hunters needed better traps to catch chimps?

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 13:17
This coming from the guy who said hunters needed better traps to catch chimps?

Yes. That is a case of poverty and economic want justifying the slaughter, not any biological dissimilarity between us and apes.

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th September 2010, 13:24
Yes. That is a case of poverty and economic want justifying the slaughter, not any biological dissimilarity between us and apes.

We should be encouraging sustainable development, not unsustainable and environmentally damaging practices brought about by capitalism.

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 15:45
We should be encouraging sustainable development, not unsustainable and environmentally damaging practices brought about by capitalism.

We should demand that poverty is abolished -- not join the ideogues of Western capitalism in lecturing poor Africans about how they make a living.

Dean
7th September 2010, 16:15
We should demand that poverty is abolished -- not join the ideogues of Western capitalism in lecturing poor Africans about how they make a living.
Expanding industries which have a floundering resource - namely chimp hunting - are going to be direct causes of impoverishment.

NoXion is 100% correct that we need to expand sustainable developmental programs, and placing resources instead in industries which do not meet these goals will backfire.

ZeroNowhere
7th September 2010, 16:55
I'm not sure that I recall the traps being set only for chimps? From what I recall, the article mentioned any animal being able to trip them. On the other hand, if chimps are disabling these, then that may be problematic.

28350
7th September 2010, 17:15
If god didn't want us to eat them why did he make them so tasty?

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th September 2010, 17:49
Believe me VG1917, I would love to see a prosperous Africa with advanced technology. But I have no reason to believe that following American/European/Russian patterns will achieve that without significant environmental damage.

If Africa is to develop, it must be done on the continent's own terms.


I'm not sure that I recall the traps being set only for chimps? From what I recall, the article mentioned any animal being able to trip them. On the other hand, if chimps are disabling these, then that may be problematic.

My understanding is that the chimps are caught for "bushmeat".

Omnia Sunt Communia
7th September 2010, 19:28
Yes. That is a case of poverty and economic want justifying the slaughter

I had the "economic want" for a new PlayStation 3 so I sold a rock of crack to a group of 6th graders, pimped out my mentally retarded cousin, took a job at a factory as a scab, and submitted my job resume to the local police department.

khad
7th September 2010, 19:34
We should demand that poverty is abolished -- not join the ideogues of Western capitalism in lecturing poor Africans about how they make a living.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-america-have-t135830/index.html?p=1761383#post1761383


the European discovery of America had immensely revolutionary consequences because it gave way to the destruction of feudalism and made possible the creation of a global capitalist economy which would ultimately bring together virtually the whole of humanity under its umbrella.* This rise of global capital in turn made possible for the first time in human history a genuinely universal struggle for human emancipation, through its creation of an international working class.

:closedeyes:

Omnia Sunt Communia
7th September 2010, 19:38
Also, from this insipid article:


We are a bit more than our DNA. As Guldberg argues: ‘Our biology is the precondition for our humanity, but our instincts are transformed into something very different as a result of human consciousness and culture.’ Or as she puts it later in the book: ‘We need to look to cultural evolution, rather than genetic evolution, to explain the vast gulf that exists between the capabilities and achievements of humans and those of apes.’We're "more than our DNA"? What "more", the immortal soul given to us by the Christian God? And what the fuck is up with the division between "cultural evolution" and "genetic evolution"? More unscientific nonsense...

Then again these are the same "socialists" who defend tiger farms and the manufacture of plastic bags:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/5364/
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4392/

Also this is from their editorial statement:


spiked is endorsed [presumably through necromancy - o.s.c.] by free-thinkers such as John Stuart Mill
Nobody can suppose that it is not more beneficial to a Breton, or a Basque of French Navarre, to be brought into the current of the ideas and feelings of a highly civilised and cultivated people—to be a member of the French nationality

These Trots need to follow their leader and get rammed in the skull with a mountain climber's axe...

VERBAL WARNING for flaming. - Bob The Builder

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 20:23
I had the "economic want" for a new PlayStation 3 so I sold a rock of crack to a group of 6th graders, pimped out my mentally retarded cousin, took a job at a factory as a scab, and submitted my job resume to the local police department.

1. The wants of poor people in Africa are much more serious than computer games consoles. Try food, decent shelter, access to electricity -- i.e. the basics. But well done on trivialising the poverty which millions of people have to endure.

2. Hunting an animal in order to survive is not comparable to selling drugs to children, being a pimp, being a scab, or being a policeman. It's not even close. But well done on laying bare your utter contempt for the poor.



We're "more than our DNA"? What "more", the immortal soul given to us by the Christian God? And what the fuck is up with the division between "cultural evolution" and "genetic evolution"? More unscientific nonsense...



:confused:

You're clearly very confused. There is nothing 'scientific' about claiming that human society and culture are determined by human biology. Yes, there is much more to being human than our genetic makeup.

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 20:26
http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-america-have-t135830/index.html?p=1761383#post1761383



:closedeyes:

What's the problem there?

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 20:29
Believe me VG1917, I would love to see a prosperous Africa with advanced technology. But I have no reason to believe that following American/European/Russian patterns will achieve that without significant environmental damage.

If Africa is to develop, it must be done on the continent's own terms.

On its own terms or according to your terms?

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th September 2010, 21:15
On its own terms or according to your terms?

I like to think that most people in Africa are capable of giving a shit about their environment.

khad
7th September 2010, 21:23
Just admit it, bro--you just hate chimpanzees. ;)

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 21:26
I like to think that most people in Africa are capable of giving a shit about their environment.

Caring about your natural surroundings and wanting economic development -- which is, btw, seen as the most urgent need by Africans, so much so that every political party, tendency or movement in most of Africa , from leftwing to rightwing, has to at least pay lip service to its provision in order to hope to win any support at all -- can go hand in hand.

But the bottom line is that people in Africa recognise that they need better living standards, at least as high as the modest levels enjoyed by the average Westerner, more than they need nature reserves. The effective prioritisation of the latter is predominantly a Western phenomenon. And it should be clear why.

Dean
7th September 2010, 21:53
1. The wants of poor people in Africa are much more serious than computer games consoles. Try food, decent shelter, access to electricity -- i.e. the basics. But well done on trivialising the poverty which millions of people have to endure.

2. Hunting an animal in order to survive is not comparable to selling drugs to children, being a pimp, being a scab, or being a policeman. It's not even close. But well done on laying bare your utter contempt for the poor.
The response by progressives or a progressive society should not be the expansion of the industrial bases for destitute acts of poverty (such as traps for chimps) unless you would like to relish and encourage such uncomfortable acts for some strange reason.

What needs to be done is to re-incentivize African agriculture and provide good trade and aid systems for locations which do not have sufficient food resources. Encouraging unsustainable modes of food production among populations which are already resorting to such unfavorable resources is an incredibly bad economic policy.

What you'll experience is a short boom in such hunting while migrants move to the area in the hopes of hunting or trading for the food. Then the food resource will quickly dry up and there will be even more people starving, since someone, thinking like you, decided to invest in an incredibly bad economic model which the locals have only resorted to in the absence of better resources.

Dimentio
7th September 2010, 22:02
Caring about your natural surroundings and wanting economic development -- which is, btw, seen as the most urgent need by Africans, so much so that every political party, tendency or movement in most of Africa , from leftwing to rightwing, has to at least pay lip service to its provision in order to hope to win any support at all -- can go hand in hand.

But the bottom line is that people in Africa recognise that they need better living standards, at least as high as the modest levels enjoyed by the average Westerner, more than they need nature reserves. The effective prioritisation of the latter is predominantly a Western phenomenon. And it should be clear why.

The thing is that if you treat environment as something hostile and is depleting its resources, it would eventually turn into a hostile place. Resources are utilised inefficiently today, so inefficiently that the world is overexploited - while people still starve. For what good is a worker's paradise if it cannot be upheld?

Vanguard1917
7th September 2010, 22:09
What you'll experience is a short boom in such hunting while migrants move to the area in the hopes of hunting or trading for the food. Then the food resource will quickly dry up and there will be even more people starving, since someone, thinking like you, decided to invest in an incredibly bad economic model which the locals have only resorted to in the absence of better resources.

From the other thread:



I personally would like to see in my lifetime an Africa in which there has been vast industrial and agricultural development so that backward practices like hunting for survival, regardless of the animal being hunted, no longer need to exist. And while i certainly don't think that it's a good idea for chimpanzees to be hunted to extinction, as a Marxist and a humanist i can have no time whatsoever for the largely Western middle-class demonisation of the impoverished African hunters who undertake such practices in order to live.

ÑóẊîöʼn
7th September 2010, 23:25
From the other thread:

Your implied route to such a state - given your blanket condemnations of environmentalism - would result in environmental damage that is unacceptable by virtue of its direct effect on people. Better ways of trapping chimpanzees will lead to fewer chimps (if not their extinction) and more hungry people.

Also, it is perfectly possible to be against the practice of chimp hunting without have any axe to grind against the hunters themselves. You are correct that they have little choice, but that is the problem! They need a more diverse and sustainable range of life options, but that won't happen via expansion of bad practices.

Rosa Lichtenstein
7th September 2010, 23:44
Thanks for that review VG1917; this is one of the few things we seem to agree about. Can't say I agree with much else.

Comrades might also like to consult the following:

Taylor, J. (2009), Not A Chimp. The Hunt To Find The Genes That Make Us Human (Oxford University Press).

Bickerton, D. (2009), Adam's Tongue. How Humans Made Language. How Language Made Humans (Hill and Wang).

Radick, G. (2007), The Simian Tongue. The Long Debate About Animal Language (University of Chicago Press).

Wallman, J. (1992), Aping Language (Cambridge University Press).

Omnia Sunt Communia
8th September 2010, 00:31
1. The wants of poor people in Africa are much more serious than computer games consoles. Try food, decent shelter, access to electricity -- i.e. the basics.

Plenty of people in the US are lacking in those departments as well but still dream of buying the newest electronic entertainment consoles. Not all workers act in their own personal best interest or in the best interests of the human race.

As a US worker I am struggling to obtain "the basics". I currently have no food, cannot afford to pay rent for "decent shelter", no foreseeable way of paying future electric bills. With all that said I would prefer my current existence to an existence of relative comfort poaching native bears to extinction for their gallbladders.


Hunting an animal in order to survive is not comparable to selling drugs to children, being a pimp, being a scab, or being a policeman.It does if a) the animal is in danger of being extinct, and b) due to its close biological relationship to humans is not even healthy for humans to eat. (Selling ape meat and selling crack are literally analogous in the latter respect)


But well done on laying bare your utter contempt for the poor.You're projecting resentment of liberal environmentalism onto communists, which is a waste of time, and an obvious struggle to justify your own obsolete technocratic Trotskyite ideology.


Yes, there is much more to being human than our genetic makeup.There is? So you believe in a "cultural soul" independent of the organic genotype?


Thanks for that review VG1917; this is one of the few things we seem to agree about. Can't say I agree with much else.

Comrades might also like to consult the following:

Taylor, J. (2009), Not A Chimp. The Hunt To Find The Genes That Make Us Human (Oxford University Press).

Bickerton, D. (2009), Adam's Tongue. How Humans Made Language. How Language Made Humans (Hill and Wang).

Radick, G. (2007), The Simian Tongue. The Long Debate About Animal Language (University of Chicago Press).

Wallman, J. (1992), Aping Language (Cambridge University Press).

Another anti-marxist chimes in to spam the debate with capitalist lies about animal consciousness. (Note the extensive smattering of poorly researched vulgar materialist tirades against dialectics on the author's website and RevLeft post trail)

The Marxist view of animals is not that they are lacking consciousness or language but rather species-being. An animal is aware of its individual interests and the interests of its pack but not the interests of its entire species. This is why a stray dog may befriend a Greek anarchist and, on the basis of that personal friendship, aid in a human attack on the police, but dogs will never collectively organize to attack the human ruling class even though it is in the interest of their species.

It is an over-simplification to say animals are "not proletariat", since their labor is exploited by the bourgeoisie all the time, and it is therefore in their objective interests to rid themselves of capitalism. However, since they lack species-being they can only engage in primal acts of individual revolt, and need the help of humanity's collective decision-making to overthrow the global capitalist order and free themselves.

Proving that an ape has difficultly learning human sign language does not establish that human communication is more sophisticated or complex, it would be very difficult for humans to learn to communicate in the manner of birds, which is also very sophisticated and complex. However, what matters is not that bird-language is sophisticated and complex, but that humans have species-being and birds do not, this is what we should be proud of. And our species-being is what tells us it is not advisable to wipe out our closest relative in the animal kingdom, further irreparably destroying our world's biological diversity and closing the door on future opportunities to study the evolution of man. However capitalism has trained man to ignore her species-being and instead act in the interests of an elite minority.

anticap
8th September 2010, 01:07
I didn't even read past the thread title, because my brain reversed "human" and "primate" and I thought, "bullshit."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm an ape, and apes are primates.

Also, I want to scream (like the primate that I am) whenever I find people discussing "animals" as separate from humans. I wish they would refer to the other animals as such ("other animals"). I can't help thinking that these people consider humans somehow above the other animals, despite the fact that this cannot be argued logically without arbitrarily (and fallaciously) selecting for human strengths, nor does it make any sense from an evolutionary standpoint (a garden slug is every bit as evolved as you are).

Dean
9th September 2010, 14:14
I split the off-topic stuff. 09-09-10 Dean

Rosa Lichtenstein
9th September 2010, 16:21
Ok, thanks.:)

My reply to 'Omnia Sunt' can now be found here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/dialectical-materialism-act-t141418/index.html

Dean
9th September 2010, 17:57
Ok, thanks.:)

My reply to 'Omnia Sunt' can now be found here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/dialectical-materialism-act-t141418/index.html

Yeah, I meant to leave a link but I was having problems with it. Thanks.

Vanguard1917
11th September 2010, 13:18
As a US worker I am struggling to obtain "the basics".

You may be, but you're probably typing your nonsense on a computer and you have access to the internet, all the while trivialising the kinds of poverty which make hunting for survival wholly understandable.



Plenty of people in the US are lacking in those departments as well but still dream of buying the newest electronic entertainment consoles.


Again, you clearly hold the masses in contempt. Not just the African poor, but the US masses, too.


It does if a) the animal is in danger of being extinct, and b) due to its close biological relationship to humans is not even healthy for humans to eat. (Selling ape meat and selling crack are literally analogous in the latter respect)


:lol:

:thumbup1:



There is?

Yes, of course there is. If human society and culture were determined by human genes, human society and culture would have changed very little, if at all, in the last 50,000 years.


You're projecting resentment of liberal environmentalism onto communists, which is a waste of time,

Meanwhile, biological determinism and misanthrophy are central tenets of communist theory.

Vanguard1917
11th September 2010, 14:01
Also, it is perfectly possible to be against the practice of chimp hunting without have any axe to grind against the hunters themselves. You are correct that they have little choice, but that is the problem!

That's not far from the point i've been trying to make: that you don't have to be a fan of the practice of hunting chimpanzees for survival, in order to oppose the Western depiction of these hunters as evil. People are driven to such practices as a result of poverty and economic underdevelopment, which makes it all the more insulting that the very people who most strongly condemn such practices are also likely to be the people who openly tell African countries that they should not aspire to large-scale economic development because, if they were to, we would apparently need 'five planet earths'.

Lenina Rosenweg
13th September 2010, 17:12
This was put into the other thread.


Originally Posted by Omnia Sunt Communia
-
You cite academics who wish to establish that the primary 'leap' between humanity and other animals is ego awareness or linguistic skill rather than species-being

Manuscripts of 1844
I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on the difference between ego awareness/linguistic skill and species being. I am perhaps a bit shaky on the concept of "species being". As I understand this essentially means that humanity is capable of creating/planning with itself in mind. "The worst of carpenters is better than the best of bees".

I'm not challenging your point, I want to learn. I agree w/your take on animal protection, avoiding the extremes of having little regard for animals in pursuit of development on one hand and "animal rights" people equating animals with humans on the other. I've had long debates with friends on this.

BTW, not all us Trots hate chimpanzees. Micheal Lowy is a proponent of eco-socialism, although I'm not sure myself how I feel about this.The CWI has written on the environmental crisis from a socialist perspective, although a lot more work needs to be done in this area.

Omnia Sunt Communia
17th September 2010, 04:09
You may be, but you're probably typing your nonsense on a computer and you have access to the internet

There was recently an enormous mass-uprising organized in Mozambique primarily with text-messages. The telecom industry is currently well on it's way to building communications infrastructure in the "global south".

Anyway access to library computers in no way makes US workers 'privileged' or whatever, it's more rote boring ad hominem on your part to justify a ludicrous position.


Again, you clearly hold the masses in contempt. Not just the African poor, but the US masses, too.okayz


If human society and culture were determined by human genes, human society and culture would have changed very little, if at all, in the last 50,000 years. Human culture is based on our physical and psychological needs, which has a good deal to do with genetics.


misanthrophyLike the misanthrope who thinks it's OK to spread diseases by selling starving poor people troglodyte meat, because said misanthrope has a reactionary populist ideology that cannot accept that some workers (such as poachers, police officers, prison guards, etc.) do not always act in the best interests of humanity or the globe?

Vanguard1917
17th September 2010, 08:34
There was recently an enormous mass-uprising organized in Mozambique primarily with text-messages. The telecom industry is currently well on it's way to building communications infrastructure in the "global south".

Mozambique has a GDP per capita of $465, while the US has one of $46,381. So the likelihood is that, however bad your poverty, if you live in the US it is likely to be quite different to the one experienced by the average person in Mozambique.



Human culture is based on our physical and psychological needs, which has a good deal to do with genetics.



It having 'a good deal to do with genetics' does not mean that genetics determine human society and culture, as you claimed.



Like the misanthrope who thinks it's OK to spread diseases by selling starving poor people troglodyte meat, because said misanthrope has a reactionary populist ideology that cannot accept that some workers (such as poachers, police officers, prison guards, etc.) do not always act in the best interests of humanity or the globe?


Police officers aren't workers. Neither are prison guards. And, for that matter, nor are people who make their money solely through poaching, although they cannot be compared to the first two because they are not the paid protectors of the ruling class. They are just people who, as a result of poverty, have been forced into hunting illegally in order to survive. That you demonise these people is why i initially called you a misanthrope.

Dean
17th September 2010, 19:34
Police officers aren't workers. Neither are prison guards. And, for that matter, nor are people who make their money solely through poaching, although they cannot be compared to the first two because they are not the paid protectors of the ruling class.
Bullshit. They are wage-laborers who are exploited, plain and simple.

Their labor is transformed into value for the capitalist class. You might as well complain about truck drivers who transport propaganda, or those who perform services in arms and pulp manufacturing for the arms and media industries.

Your characterization of COs and POs as "not workers" only serves to obfuscate their material relations to the means of production, probably due to some petty moral oversimplification of the world.

ZeroNowhere
17th September 2010, 20:25
Bullshit. They are wage-laborers who are exploited, plain and simple.

Their labor is transformed into value for the capitalist class.
While I agree that they are wage-labourers, and sell their labour-power as a commodity, their labour is not transformed into value. However, it is a necessary condition for the realization of value.

Dean
21st September 2010, 22:04
While I agree that they are wage-labourers, and sell their labour-power as a commodity, their labour is not transformed into value. However, it is a necessary condition for the realization of value.
Actually, it depends. For private security contractors, it is transformed into value. For the state apparatus, it can be transformed into value but it is far less common.

Pawn Power
29th September 2010, 01:23
I like to think that most people in Africa are capable of giving a shit about their environment.

In fact, they appear to give a shit much more than most Americans and Europeans.

Here are some folks that vanguard ignores to prove his bizarre points.

South African activist Kumi Naidoo (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/10/greenpeace_internationals_new_exec_director_kumi)

Angelique Kidjo of Benin (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/14/the_leaders_of_this_world_stand)

One of Nigeria’s best known environmental leaders, Nnimmo Bassey. (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/8/nigerian_environmentalist_nnimmo_bassey_the_global )

And more voices from Africa against environmental destruction and for sustainability. (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/7/voices_from_africa_drought_crop_shortages)

bailey_187
5th October 2010, 12:51
In fact, they appear to give a shit much more than most Americans and Europeans.

Here are some folks that vanguard ignores to prove his bizarre points.

South African activist Kumi Naidoo (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/10/greenpeace_internationals_new_exec_director_kumi)

Angelique Kidjo of Benin (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/14/the_leaders_of_this_world_stand)

One of Nigeria’s best known environmental leaders, Nnimmo Bassey. (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/8/nigerian_environmentalist_nnimmo_bassey_the_global )

And more voices from Africa against environmental destruction and for sustainability. (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/7/voices_from_africa_drought_crop_shortages)

These people hardly lead mass movements in Africa, say like pro-industrialisation Communist groups did at one time, though do they?

These people arent rallying millions to their cause and becoming heros to millions of Africans and people of African descent across the world like Kwame Nkrumah (who advocated policies scorned at by environmentalists such as buildings a large dam) or many other supposedly anti-imperialist/colonial leaders did.

Vanguard1917
5th October 2010, 21:12
These people hardly lead mass movements in Africa, say like pro-industrialisation Communist groups did at one time, though do they?

These people arent rallying millions to their cause and becoming heros to millions of Africans and people of African descent across the world like Kwame Nkrumah (who advocated policies scorned at by environmentalists such as buildings a large dam) or many other supposedly anti-imperialist/colonial leaders did.

Indeed. The defeat of 'third world' anti-imperialist movements -- which, after all, declared that the problem with imperialism was that it was keeping their countries economically backward in relation to the West -- was one of the preconditions for the rise of green politics, which openly tells poor countries that they have to manage without large-scale economic development.

bricolage
5th October 2010, 21:15
These people arent rallying millions to their cause
Neither are communists.

Kwame Nkrumah (who advocated policies scorned at by environmentalists such as buildings a large dam)
When he wasn't banning strikes.