National *SOCIALISM*?????

[Rafiq]

Hey everyone. I was just wondering, were the Nazis really 'Socialists'? I am really confused. If National Socialism was mix of Nationalism and Socilaism, wasn't the USSR, North Korea, and every 'marxist' nation National Socialist? Or was the name just created because Socialism was very popular in Europe?


P.S. I have no sympathy toward Nazi Fascist scum

[#FF0000]

No, the Nazis had a very different definition of socialism than we Marxists do. For them, a social welfare system and things like that within the framework of a capitalist set-up (with government intervention) was socialism. In the USSR, the idea was to set up a Worker's state, (though how successful that was is up for debate. In another thread.)

So, yeah. The nazis had their own meaning for "socialism" that is disconnected from what Marxists believe, and, like you said, it was also picked to sort of attract working class people to the party.

[JazzRemington]

It should be further noted that Hitler was actually pro-private property and had a pessimistic attitude about the term "socialism".

[Tablo]

The only reason the party adopted the term socialism and the red flag tot begin with was because workers parties were popular in Germany around that time.

[Thug Lessons]

There's really no end to the different ways people have defined the word 'socialism'. The Nazis wouldn't be socialist under the communists' definition, and the communists probably wouldn't be socialist under the Nazis' definition. With that in mind, it's clear that the two don't have the same system.

However, both should be seen as a reaction to capitalism. Communism is a progressive reaction that seeks to advance society as so it resolve the problems that capitalism has created. Fascism is a reactionary reaction (hurr) that looks to pre-capitalist value systems as a solution to capitalism's flaws. Since they share a starting point, fascism and communism have some similarities, but on the balance their policies are radically different. They're not exact opposites as some have claimed, but only lunatics on the right-wing fringe try to conflate them.

[Conquer or Die]

National Socialism is simply the government taking control of the economy and political structure of the country and promoting a divisive hierarchy. It shares the same goals of Free Market Capitalism by a different method and it shares a similar method to Left Socialists with a radically different goal.

Marxist-Communists are necessarily socialist. Anarchists don't have to be. Both are opposed to exploitation.

[Dimentio]

Hey everyone. I was just wondering, were the Nazis really 'Socialists'? I am really confused. If National Socialism was mix of Nationalism and Socilaism, wasn't the USSR, North Korea, and every 'marxist' nation National Socialist? Or was the name just created because Socialism was very popular in Europe?


P.S. I have no sympathy toward Nazi Fascist scum

During those days, socialism was a really popular concept in most countries amongst broad segments of the population. Nationalism was also a popular concept. Hitler got the genial idea to combine the two terms and name a social darwinistic conspiratistic joke ideology after them.

Names are important.

I doubt he would have won any votes with having his group named: "The Antisemitic Social-Darwinist German Genocide Party"

[Ocean Seal]

Hey everyone. I was just wondering, were the Nazis really 'Socialists'? I am really confused. If National Socialism was mix of Nationalism and Socilaism, wasn't the USSR, North Korea, and every 'marxist' nation National Socialist? Or was the name just created because Socialism was very popular in Europe?


P.S. I have no sympathy toward Nazi Fascist scum
No, generally when the word national is in front of a leftist ideology (with liberation being the exception) it becomes a right wing ideology.
National Socialism (Hitler and the such)
National Anarchists (a new reactionary group)
National Syndicalism (Franco)

The Nazis practiced no socialism and instead formed a corporate state. The created a vanguard against the working class. They encouraged class collaboration instead of class warfare. They essentially favored the idea of elites taking the power and the creation of a protected wealthy class.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

During those days, socialism was a really popular concept in most countries amongst broad segments of the population. Nationalism was also a popular concept. Hitler got the genial idea to combine the two terms and name a social darwinistic conspiratistic joke ideology after them.

Names are important.

I doubt he would have won any votes with having his group named: "The Antisemitic Social-Darwinist German Genocide Party"


True, in one documentary i saw, about ww2, they interwied a man that was a former meber of the hitler jugend. There he also told his fascination for the words, remeber the ww1 patriotism that had grown frome since the french revolution and (in Germany) becomed even stronger since the reunifiation of all the small german provinces, was still very strong so this man said that 'Nationalism' in his eyes where something really good, to belive and love your country, and socialism that was some kind of justice. He simply took the good things frome the both and combined them in his head and thas what many others belived that the term stod for, however it was more of a try to win over the working class, since (as menthioned) the labour movement was very strong at the time in Germany.

[Weezer]

We can argue over semantics, but ideology is more important in this case.

No, National Socialism and Marxism are not related in anyway. They are polar opposites.

[Rafiq]

During those days, socialism was a really popular concept in most countries amongst broad segments of the population. Nationalism was also a popular concept. Hitler got the genial idea to combine the two terms and name a social darwinistic conspiratistic joke ideology after them.

Names are important.

I doubt he would have won any votes with having his group named: "The Antisemitic Social-Darwinist German Genocide Party"


I lol'd at The AntiSemitic Social Darwinist German Genocide Party

[L.A.P.]

It was a way to manipulate people to join and was trying to appeal to the working class by deeming themselves the "National Socialist German Worker's Party" now if I didn't know who the Nazis and Fascist were I would have thought this was a communist/socialist/marxist party.

[Rafiq]

Okay thanks for clearing this all up comrades

[DragonQuestWes]

No, National Socialism was not Socialist and never will be, because it is Far-Right.

National Socialism to me is an oxymoron because if you have only Socialism for who you see as "citizens," that would contradict the principles of Socialism.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

There's really no end to the different ways people have defined the word 'socialism'. The Nazis wouldn't be socialist under the communists' definition, and the communists probably wouldn't be socialist under the Nazis' definition. With that in mind, it's clear that the two don't have the same system.

However, both should be seen as a reaction to capitalism. Communism is a progressive reaction that seeks to advance society as so it resolve the problems that capitalism has created. Fascism is a reactionary reaction (hurr) that looks to pre-capitalist value systems as a solution to capitalism's flaws. Since they share a starting point, fascism and communism have some similarities, but on the balance their policies are radically different. They're not exact opposites as some have claimed, but only lunatics on the right-wing fringe try to conflate them.

But isn't Obama a "socialist fascist communist" (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/lazarowitz8.1.1.html)?

[Jimmie Higgins]

However, both should be seen as a reaction to capitalism. Communism is a progressive reaction that seeks to advance society as so it resolve the problems that capitalism has created. Fascism is a reactionary reaction (hurr) that looks to pre-capitalist value systems as a solution to capitalism's flaws. Since they share a starting point, fascism and communism have some similarities, but on the balance their policies are radically different. They're not exact opposites as some have claimed, but only lunatics on the right-wing fringe try to conflate them.
I agree with this to a certain extent - but the "anti-capitalism" of the NAZIs is more like the anti-capitalism of right-wing populism today where far-right people criticize NAFTA. But fascism in general and Nazism too is not a reaction to capitalism, but a reaction to working class movements. So it is a reaction to the mobilization of workers. As such it has constantly tried to take the appeal of radical workers movements and draw it back into a national unity sort of perspective. The glorification of the Roman Empire in Italian, the glorification of the Church in Spain and the glorification of a mythic past in German fascism had less to do with looking to the economic systems of slave societies and feudalism, and more to do with creating a sense of mythical national unity IMO.

So Italian "National Syndicalism" gained a following in reaction to the strike-waves in northern Italy and the 2 red years... they argued that instead of uniting workers (which is decisive in their view) the whole country should unite into a union of all classes.

German National Socialism also gained ground as the German Socialist movement went from electoralism to more radicalism. At a time when all classes were being hurt by capitalism (hence the real practicality of having some criticisms of capitalism in your platform even if you were not all that opposed to the actual system itself) they argued for unifying the country and getting rid of divisive differences of parties representing particular classes in society. The roots of their boots on the ground comes from the right-wing forces that organized to put down the revolutions in Germany after WWI, so they are very much a reaction to worker's movements and socialism.

So fascist "anti-capitalism" is just a tactic at best. US Libertarians use anti-capitalist sentiments from NAZI propaganda to make the BS claim that has gained popularity in the US over the last decade that socialism=nazism. But the problem is that they can't believe that anyone would be against the free market while in truth anyone in the 1930s (even capitalists themselves) would have thought it was absurd NOT to have a criticism of the system at some level. For most NAZIs the main problem with capitalism is that it produced opposition and division in the form of strikes and radical movements and so stability is important in unifying the nation, but beyond that they support capitalism and the capitalists in Europe were some of their major supporters once the NAZIs became a real political force.

[Die Rote Fahne]

"Our term socialism has nothing to do with the Marxian term" - Adolf Hitler.

In saying that, the use of socialism was merely used to gather German working class support for the movement. It was used as more of a buzz word to say "we are for the working class". Telling the workers their woes were caused by the Jew and not the bourgeoisie.

Hitler's socialism was not socialism. It was not egalitarian, it was not working class, etc. I mean, we can all agree that "socialism" be it utopian or Marxist is about the working class owning the means of production and holding political power.

[Nolan]

the "anti-capitalism" of the NAZIs is more like the anti-capitalism of right-wing populism today where far-right people criticize NAFTA.

This. I often compare fascist "anti-capitalism" (which is based on a notion of "culture decay") to the anti-consumerism of many american theo-cons.

Any vague, half-assed complaint can be viewed as "anti-status quo" by people who don't know any better. And as we know the nazis didn't have any material critique of capitalism, just rhetoric for speeches in front of union workers.

[ContrarianLemming]

Marxist-Communists are necessarily socialist. Anarchists don't have to be. Both are opposed to exploitation.

I hear a collective disagreement and loud declarations about anarcho captalism in the distance...

[Revy]

Hey everyone. I was just wondering, were the Nazis really 'Socialists'? I am really confused. If National Socialism was mix of Nationalism and Socilaism, wasn't the USSR, North Korea, and every 'marxist' nation National Socialist? Or was the name just created because Socialism was very popular in Europe?


P.S. I have no sympathy toward Nazi Fascist scum

The "National Socialist" label is something they got from Mussolini who used his own variation National Syndicalist. Many fascist and crypto-fascist groups today have other variations, National Anarchist, National Bolshevik.

The idea of it is, to co-opt proletarian imagery for reactionary and hateful ideas. They pretend to represent a "third position" between the capitalist rulers and the Marxists, by combining all the hate of the far-right with a false proletarian image, to steer people away from supporting genuine workers' movements. That's why the original name of the Nazi Party was simply "German Workers Party". It could have easily sounded like a name people on the German left would have chosen, but the actual ideas were quite different.

Fascism is not socialist. The state Hitler created may not have been a Misesian market "paradise", but it was still capitalism, and not only was it filled with exploitation, dictatorship and military expansionism but also unimaginable horrors in the form of the Holocaust.

Socialism is about the common human bonds of the working class, not racism, xenophobia, homophobia, patriarchy, or any other form of oppression.

[hatzel]

I think most of us are somewhat missing the point here. Claiming that the 'Socialism' was merely tacked on to the end in some kind of PR move is somewhat flawed and narrow-minded. And is somewhat hijacking the term 'Socialism' for our own interpretation of it...

In truth, the Nazi party was 'socialist' in many of the same ways as a Social Democratic party, for instance. They did provide a pretty decent social welfare system, and famously paid attention to public health and environmental affairs, not unlike a modern Social Democrat party may be expected to. Only problem was that you wouldn't feel the advantage of any of this stuff if you weren't 'lucky' enough to be born a German :bored:

I think a few of us here are really more concerned with making sure nobody associates 'our' socialism with 'their' socialism, so just run around claiming that the Nazis had no right to use the term, or that they only used it for some kind of publicity campaign to 'fool' German workers into thinking this was a positive movement for them. To some extent, this is somewhat disparaging of the German population of this time, that they could be so easily hoodwinked, but, on the other hand, there is a certain amount of truth in it. There would, of course, be a segment of the population who would join the movement, merely due to the social stigma attached to communism at this time, and, having spent time in Germany, where the extreme right is perhaps more vilified than in any other country (even though the movement is one of the biggest / most active in Western Europe), and spending time with various radical leftist groups there, I've noticed that there may be some truth in the suggestion. In Germany, as much as in other countries, there are segments (stress on segments) of the radical leftists movement, I would argue, who, in 1930's Germany would find themselves in the Nazi party, but now, due to the change in society, the change of what is considered the 'evil' ideology, they find themselves in radical leftists movements. The fundamental workings of the brain, though, are the same. Love my amateur psychology :thumbup1:

I should mention that the segments I refer to are almost exclusively limited to the more violent elements, black block types. Sometimes I feel as though these are people merely intent on releasing some anger in a violent way. In truth, it's sometimes difficult to imagine that they could never have been made into wartime Nazis, had the society they lived in been more comparable to inter-war Germany...you've just got to replace Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and so on with Fascists or neo-Nazis, and some radical leftists abide by many of the same actions as these hated Nazis did a few generations earlier...I'm sure we're all familiar with the political ideology circle, where extreme left wing fades into extreme right wing

In summary, I'm trying to say that we should dedicate less energy to trying to say why the Nazis were wrong to use the word Socialism in their name, in case people associate our movements with theirs, and divert that energy instead into proving why we even deserve to be considered fundamentally different in basic psychology :thumbup1:

(Something tells me this post isn't going to be received particularly amiably :laugh:)

[Nolan]

I think most of us are somewhat missing the point here. Claiming that the 'Socialism' was merely tacked on to the end in some kind of PR move is somewhat flawed and narrow-minded.

No. That's what it was, in essence. The fact that Hitler himself didn't think highly of incorporating the word "socialist" into the party name should speak volumes.

He preferred "social revolutionary party."


And is somewhat hijacking the term 'Socialism' for our own interpretation of it...Socialism is a very specific thing. We're not the ones hijacking it.


In truth, the Nazi party was 'socialist' in many of the same ways as a Social Democratic party, for instance. They did provide a pretty decent social welfare system, and famously paid attention to public health and environmental affairs, not unlike a modern Social Democrat party may be expected to. Only problem was that you wouldn't feel the advantage of any of this stuff if you weren't 'lucky' enough to be born a German :bored:And they not so famously privatized every public utility they could get their hands on. Otherwise the occasional similarity with social democrat movements isn't shocking.* Fascists try to satisfy all classes as part of their class collaboration projects.


I think a few of us here are really more concerned with making sure nobody associates 'our' socialism with 'their' socialism, so just run around claiming that the Nazis had no right to use the term, or that they only used it for some kind of publicity campaign to 'fool' German workers into thinking this was a positive movement for them. To some extent, this is somewhat disparaging of the German population of this time, that they could be so easily hoodwinked, but, on the other hand, there is a certain amount of truth in it. There would, of course, be a segment of the population who would join the movement, merely due to the social stigma attached to communism at this time, and, having spent time in Germany, where the extreme right is perhaps more vilified than in any other country (even though the movement is one of the biggest / most active in Western Europe), and spending time with various radical leftist groups there, I've noticed that there may be some truth in the suggestion. In Germany, as much as in other countries, there are segments (stress on segments) of the radical leftists movement, I would argue, who, in 1930's Germany would find themselves in the Nazi party, but now, due to the change in society, the change of what is considered the 'evil' ideology, they find themselves in radical leftists movements. The fundamental workings of the brain, though, are the same. Love my amateur psychology :thumbup1:The nazi party wasn't always the nazi party as we know it of course. But as time went on, the elements of the party that weren't extreme right were purged. As for "fundamental workings of the brain" is concerned, you would find much more similarity between fascists and, say, some objectivists than you would between fascists and socialists. The link is their fanatical social darwinism and obsession with some notion of self-superiority (Outside of a political context, this often manifests itself a la Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold). These things of course appeal to a certain kind of person.


I should mention that the segments I refer to are almost exclusively limited to the more violent elements, black block types. Sometimes I feel as though these are people merely intent on releasing some anger in a violent way. In truth, it's sometimes difficult to imagine that they could never have been made into wartime Nazis, had the society they lived in been more comparable to inter-war Germany...you've just got to replace Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and so on with Fascists or neo-Nazis, and some radical leftists abide by many of the same actions as these hated Nazis did a few generations earlier...I'm sure we're all familiar with the political ideology circle, where extreme left wing fades into extreme right wingSo hating nazis is the same as hating Jews. K bro


In summary, I'm trying to say that we should dedicate less energy to trying to say why the Nazis were wrong to use the word Socialism in their name, in case people associate our movements with theirs, and divert that energy instead into proving why we even deserve to be considered fundamentally different in basic psychology :thumbup1:What?


(Something tells me this post isn't going to be received particularly amiably :laugh:)Probably because it was pretty dumb.

*Just so you know, there's nothing remotely "socialist" about an expanded welfare state.

[Publius]

Hey everyone. I was just wondering, were the Nazis really 'Socialists'? I am really confused. If National Socialism was mix of Nationalism and Socilaism, wasn't the USSR, North Korea, and every 'marxist' nation National Socialist? Or was the name just created because Socialism was very popular in Europe?


P.S. I have no sympathy toward Nazi Fascist scum

Is the Democratic Republic of North Korea a democratic republic?

[JustMovement]

I think there was a genuine anti-capitalist movement in the Nazi and Fascist parties. You can hate capitalism, and still fetishize jack boots, miltary marches, chauvanism, and genocide. I think it is just semantics if at that point you can be called socialist in ANY meaningful way.
Anyways in Germany these elements were purged in the aptly named night of long knives.
In general, Fascist ideology, if it can be called such, calls for corporationism. The state in theory tutors both the interest of the workers and the exploiters. I think the fact that all labor union membership is banned except in the one official trade union speaks for itself.

[Che a chara]

"As Marx predicted, Germany developed one of the largest and most powerful socialist movements in the world; but the international socialist movement almost collapsed when Germany launched World War I and the socialist party supported the government. However, socialism remained popular enough so that Adolph Hitler thought he had to call his movement "National Socialism" to gain widespread acceptance, even though once in power he vigorously exterminated socialists."
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/manifesto.html (http://www.wsu.edu/%7Ebrians/hum_303/manifesto.html)

Also it must be noted that the '25-point Program' of the Nazi Party had some what you would call socialist policies, but that can be countered by the other racist and fascist polices placed alongside it, and also by arguing how many of these 'socialist' policies where actually implemented.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

Overall, the term socialist within the Nazi Party was just a ploy to attract the working class within their ranks, army and general support. They distorted their apparent socialist polices and once they gained support for publicizing them, they where done away with.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but I recommend Leon Trotsky's works on National "Socialism" - http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/index.htm

[Conquer or Die]

I hear a collective disagreement and loud declarations about anarcho captalism in the distance...

Anarchists prefer to not engage power with the government. Socialists necessarily have too. Marx sought the ruling class to get control of all institutions and incorporate them under a democratic tyranny. Spooner, Bakunin, Prince Kroptokin, and Emma Goldman were explicitly opposed to the government. Emma Goldman told people not to vote.

Anarcho-Capitalists are nothingists. Their system is simply massive corporate government.

[Rafiq]

Is the Democratic Republic of North Korea a democratic republic?


Well said!

[Baseball]

The "National Socialist" label is something they got from Mussolini who used his own variation National Syndicalist. Many fascist and crypto-fascist groups today have other variations, National Anarchist, National Bolshevik.



Fascism is not socialist. The state Hitler created may not have been a Misesian market "paradise", but it was still capitalism, and not only was it filled with exploitation, dictatorship and military expansionism but also unimaginable horrors in the form of the Holocaust.

Socialism is about the common human bonds of the working class, not racism, xenophobia, homophobia, patriarchy, or any other form of oppression.


The National Socialist Label was not acquired from Mussolini, but rather from a party by the same name which existed in The Austrian Empire prior to WW I. That party got it's name from copying the Czeck National Socialist Party, who in turn was formed as schism within the Czech Social Democratic Party.

the notion that "nationalism" and "socialism" are polar opposites is complexly unhistorical. The rest of the thread extolling the virtues of socialism is nothing more than partisanship.

[#FF0000]

The National Socialist Label was not acquired from Mussolini, but rather from a party by the same name which existed in The Austrian Empire prior to WW I. That party got it's name from copying the Czeck National Socialist Party, who in turn was formed as schism within the Czech Social Democratic Party.

the notion that "nationalism" and "socialism" are polar opposites is complexly unhistorical. The rest of the thread extolling the virtues of socialism is nothing more than partisanship.

I should point out the Czech Nationa Social Party was a liberal party, not a Socialist one.

[Nolan]

The National Socialist Label was not acquired from Mussolini, but rather from a party by the same name which existed in The Austrian Empire prior to WW I. That party got it's name from copying the Czeck National Socialist Party, who in turn was formed as schism within the Czech Social Democratic Party.

the notion that "nationalism" and "socialism" are polar opposites is complexly unhistorical. The rest of the thread extolling the virtues of socialism is nothing more than partisanship.

Do you know what social democracy is?