Millitant ClassWar In The FirstWorld.

[Peter The Painter]

It seems, in the first world, the only thing we do, myself included, is talk about revolution, I wanted to know, who would advocate Millitant ClassWar, in London, or Paris, or Madrid?

In the first world, Class consciousness, is very low, this means, to raise it, very high profile actions woulod need to be carried out, by workers, us already Class consciousness, being the most ready for class war, would be the ones who would have to get the ball rolling.

I do not advocate Armed Struggle, as this in no way possible yet, but, expropriatin the rich, and banks, and setting up urban communes for the youth, homeless and hardup workers to live, for free, are all things to do.

The prevailing Capitalist culture, seeps into relationships, family life, it becomes a part of everyday life, The most politically advanced among us, need to start putting ourselves on the line, I mean, marching and protesting embasies is all well and good, but as ineffective, as a condom with pin holes in it.

please share ideas.

[Reznov]

I do not advocate Armed Struggle, as this in no way possible yet, but, expropriatin the rich, and banks, and setting up urban communes for the youth, homeless and hardup workers to live, for free, are all things to do.

The prevailing Capitalist culture, seeps into relationships, family life, it becomes a part of everyday life, The most politically advanced among us, need to start putting ourselves on the line, I mean, marching and protesting embasies is all well and good, but as ineffective, as a condom with pin holes in it.

please share ideas.

And how do we set up these communes? Who pays for it, how? How do we check if the people living in these communes are becoming more class-aware? And lastly, how do you know they plan on waging a "Militant class war"?

Of course it does, the best way is just to inform people. Inform your friends, then hopefully they will inform their friends and so on. Other then helping Worker unions or particiapting in strikes I dont really see any other way of actually doing anything at all to be effective.

[Peter The Painter]

expropriating the rich.

All rich people, can be expropriated, that money could finance printing hundreds of thousands of papers, How about expropriating a casino owner, and posting the money through the postboxes of the local estates?

Taking over flats, and housing illegal immigrants, running food drives, and collections, to help the elderly, with heating bills, and food at winter.

Running daycare for single mothers, painting murals all over town depicting revolutionary slogans, helping wounded soldiers get decent accomodation, Fighting fascists in the streets, Opening soup kitchens, Driving families to visit inmates who are incarcerated, seting up pirate radio, distributing revolutionary literature

Its not that hard to think of stuff if you want to.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

expropriating the rich.

All rich people, can be expropriated, that money could finance printing hundreds of thousands of papers, How about expropriating a casino owner, and posting the money through the postboxes of the local estates?

Taking over flats, and housing illegal immigrants, running food drives, and collections, to help the elderly, with heating bills, and food at winter.

Running daycare for single mothers, painting murals all over town depicting revolutionary slogans, helping wounded soldiers get decent accomodation, Fighting fascists in the streets, Opening soup kitchens, Driving families to visit inmates who are incarcerated, seting up pirate radio, distributing revolutionary literature

Its not that hard to think of stuff if you want to.

Now wer'e talking! About lack of class war in the 1st world, just want to remember about the great protests in France around 2006, when the goverment wanted to a new law that would make it esyer to fire young people and they managed to stop it, with force. Dont foget about whats going on in Grecee, and Portugal was quite hot for a while. But as you say you dont see to many of grassroot attempts of selfe managedment, class traitors in parties and unions, along with the entrance of neoliberalism have destroyd peoples belive in changes and cooperation here in the 1st world. Sadly i dont know how to start such things that youre suggesting, but i most certenly welcome such initiative.

[Peter The Painter]

I am hoping some guys from the UK & Eire, would start up an autonomous RAAN group.

If Anyone is interested, please join the group.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=582

[Magón]

Taking over say apartments and maybe just little parts of housing neighborhoods (depending on where you live), could be taken over and used. (A two or three square blocks of houses and apartments?) Hanging banners with Class Awareness questions on them from the windows, so people could see, and start getting an understanding of what's going on could work? (As well as maybe the printing of pamphlets to be handed out to them on the street?) You could even (if you live in an apartment complex, and it has roof access (or more importantly, you have roof access,) could create a small little communal garden on top with a green house and everything else you might need for growing food. (So you're not depending on Super Markets, etc.) If you live in a housing neighborhood, then just making a garden with whatever yards you have under control, could be use to help feed everyone. Getting into contact with a local free foods market, (aka non-profits) could also become apart of helping distribute and organize the food situation.

Building on giving people free reign over their dues, by stopping the payment of taxes to the government could also work? Of course, I'm pretty sure barricades would be needed to be built up, as the Fed would probably come knocking pretty quick.

Not too sure how easy it would be at the start, but of course nothing really ever is, so what would be most important, is holding more rallies, speeches, etc. to inform people of what's going on in their own backyards. Having maybe organized school walkouts, etc. to get people more aware outside your city/school too. Of course, this would all have to come before anyone started taking over apartments, neighborhoods, and making their own little communes.

[Peter The Painter]

I really enjoys your posts Nin, usually, you get some Leninist saying, god, why bother thinking or doing anything constructive, you councilist prick :)

And yeah, get where your coming from, but i think, a group of consciouss workers, could take them over, and have them open to homeless and squatters etc, this would go on national TV, and gain alot of interest, this could lead to solidarity within the left, because alot of revolutionaries, would want to improve on the media interest and start taking over more and more flats and second homes, and doing more and more expropriation.

Workers who arew involved could tell their workmates, propoganda billboards and grafiti could be put up, strikes could eventually be called.

A whole new culture could be develloped, where, alternative ways of living together, and growing food, like your roof garden idea.

Having riots infront of parliment, erecting baracades, workers refusing to pay taxes, gas stations being taken over, supermarkets being taken, and held by workers

[Magón]

I really enjoys your posts Nin, usually, you get some Leninist saying, god, why bother thinking or doing anything constructive, you councilist prick :)

And yeah, get where your coming from, but i think, a group of consciouss workers, could take them over, and have them open to homeless and squatters etc, this would go on national TV, and gain alot of interest, this could lead to solidarity within the left, because alot of revolutionaries, would want to improve on the media interest and start taking over more and more flats and second homes, and doing more and more expropriation.

Workers who arew involved could tell their workmates, propoganda billboards and grafiti could be put up, strikes could eventually be called.

A whole new culture could be develloped, where, alternative ways of living together, and growing food, like your roof garden idea.

Having riots infront of parliment, erecting baracades, workers refusing to pay taxes, gas stations being taken over, supermarkets being taken, and held by workers

lol Most of my time, I'm actually busy discussing matters with just Capitalist Liberals, (since I live in a University Town) who want "Anarchy" or "Communism", but would never really be for such a thing that they think would take so much away from them?

Anyway, I get where you're coming from, but just going by where I live and work, a small group would have to start small. Like I said, I live in a University Town, so pamphlets, speeches, rallies, etc. would all work much more productively to the general idea and situation, than just having the small group go right out and take over the gas stations, banks, whatever. Getting the people aware through talks, etc. would be much more appreciated too I think. Plus, it'd be hard to get some of the gas station attendants around here, to actually see it our way for the better. They'd be fearful of losing their job, but of course the obvious reply would be, "How can you loose a job when you're the one in control of where you work?" :thumbup1:

Plus, there's already a Pirate Radio Station here, and it's been raided by the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) in the past years for not accepting to be apart of the FCC's regulations. (Censorship of words, etc.) But they're up and running, and quite willing to let anyone speak for a time slot. (No money needed I don't think?) So a University/College Town would work well I think, to try and show what the real beauty of it all is.

[777]

The Stormfront lot are trying to get behind an operation they call P.L.E (Pioneer Little Europe) which is basically about setting up all white areas by dedicated activists.

Unfortunately for them, they are piss poor at actually doing anything.

But the left....actually quite good at organising :thumbup1:

If a group of highly dedicated activists moved into an area and started organizing in a certain way, then this sorta thing could really take off.

[Peter The Painter]

LOL, the stormfront boys make me laugh, they are so splintered and disconected to the masses, it makes us look like fucking organisational heros :)

And, if your interested 777, join the group, I am looking for people to start an autonomous RAAN group with in the UK and Eire

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=582

[777]

Yeah, that would be cool man. Once you start developing strategies and planning properly then all you really need is people and a bit of true grit..... and we are chock full of that :thumbup1:

[pranabjyoti]

The problem with the working class of first world, if they are like Peter, then actually they are living in some kind of imaginary world and no idea about world. I have doubt, those, who have little or no respect about the leaders of the working class, is just incapable to organize any proper struggle.

[Peter The Painter]

Oh fuck off you fucking idiot.

Because i do not fucking want some leader, telling me and my class what to do, does not mean that i am anti worker.

You, the one upholding a bunch of power hungry, meglomaniacs, like;

A) Mao, who did a deal with the USA over vietnam, killed dissenters, Was so ruthless, officials lied about the quotas, so when the floods etc came, millions died.

B) Stalin, banned Homosexuality, Banned alcohol, established a beauracratic hellhole, where people went missing and were tortured.

Sent around 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole of the chechen population to siberia for "ALL COLLABORATING WITH THE NAZIS":confused: millions died = GENOCIDE.

Your the anti worker
Your the petit Bourgoisie

So fuck off throwing insults, because you dont like people speaking ill of Stalin and Mao, two dead authoritarian bastards.

[Blood]

I actually would support an armed struggle against Capitalism and the First World. I think it's really the only way this day in age. Nobody's mind will change by talking. It's already been tried. The Capitalists have such a grip on the world populace that nobody cares about other opinions.

It's like a dog and it's owner; you wave a bunch of different foods in front of a dog, and they will salivate until you give them the food. Sometimes they will become distracted with something else, but then you just switch the item and yell out to them and they will see you have something new to give them, and they continue on being hypnotized. This is how the world today is. And the other countries that are being exploited by Capitalism have no true government, because they have nothing to trade because they have been exploited for so long. I don't know if the dog metaphor could be applied to England, but America is such a useless country because of it.

That's why I believe if you want to start a struggle, you have to start in the poor third world nations. Once they rise up and beat the Capitalists in their countries, then the Capitalists will struggle for resources and become weak from the lack of resources and the wide-spread lack of resources. Resources from other nations is all they rely on. Very few thing are "made in the U.S.A".

I guess in the end, I am saying "Yes, I would support an armed struggle or an action orientated development".

[The Douche]

How do you "expropriate" (politically motivated robbery) without engaging in armed struggle?

Creating a neighborhood is different from robbing banks, if you rob a bank your apartment commune is gonna get raided. I'm not opposed to either, there is a thread on the RAAN board, started by me, about trying to start a RAAN community actually.

[pranabjyoti]

Oh fuck off you fucking idiot.

Because i do not fucking want some leader, telling me and my class what to do, does not mean that i am anti worker.

You, the one upholding a bunch of power hungry, meglomaniacs, like;

A) Mao, who did a deal with the USA over vietnam, killed dissenters, Was so ruthless, officials lied about the quotas, so when the floods etc came, millions died.

B) Stalin, banned Homosexuality, Banned alcohol, established a beauracratic hellhole, where people went missing and were tortured.

Sent around 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole of the chechen population to siberia for "ALL COLLABORATING WITH THE NAZIS":confused: millions died = GENOCIDE.

Your the anti worker
Your the petit Bourgoisie

So fuck off throwing insults, because you dont like people speaking ill of Stalin and Mao, two dead authoritarian bastards.
Problem with half baked fuckers like you is that YOU ARE THE REAL BARRIERS BEFORE THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF WORKING CLASS. Just shut your fucked up mouth and stay away from us as far as possible. Men like you are worst menaces than the imperialists and I STRONGLY SUSPECT THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY AN IMPERIALIST AGENT, who had been appointed to point out the real activists and spreading imperialist BS about our great leaders in the name of "anti-dogma" and "anti-authoritarianism". Those who are engaged in real revolutionary activities around the world can do better without you.

[The Douche]

Lol, that dude said "our great leaders", and he was serious.:laugh:

[Magón]

How do you "expropriate" (politically motivated robbery) without engaging in armed struggle?

Creating a neighborhood is different from robbing banks, if you rob a bank your apartment commune is gonna get raided. I'm not opposed to either, there is a thread on the RAAN board, started by me, about trying to start a RAAN community actually.

I think armed struggle here means through full blown revolution with armed struggle, rather than just pulling off some bank heists or two in armed struggle.

As for the rest, how I see it could work out first, is create your community around banks, or have a banks within your community. Then you wouldn't have to go out of your community, take it, come back, get raided, etc. Plus, depending on the community's size, which would probably be a fairly reasonable size, keeping the money would be reasonable. I'm not sure how keen cops are when they have to raise 100+ (maybe a little less) homes (counting apartments and various neighborhoods that would be under peaceful control.) Just to find a few hundred, maybe a couple grand worth of money.

[Peter The Painter]

HAHAHA

Really, i mean you just make your own ideology look moronic, and infantiley passive agressive.

Some MLMs on here,while i disagree with them, actually have a love for the people, and debate rather than spread malicous lies.

I quite like reading MLM posters here like

Palegenisis
Bailey
Ben G
Scarletghoul

But your just fucking mental

Imperialist agent HAHHAHA, the fact you think a working class guy, from the Internet, is the biggest thing blocking revolution is so fucking immencely funny, its like you got up this morning and went

Capitalists, imperialists, fascists, racists, nah they are ok, it just Peter the Painter

LULZ:lol:

[pranabjyoti]

Lol, that dude said "our great leaders", and he was serious.:laugh:
I am serious because I live in a real world and at least I, and I sure so many workers around the world feel the lack of a true revolutionary leader this time. At least, I don't want to be a part of the half baked sect of "anti-authoritarian" AH.:mad:

[Peter The Painter]

How do you "expropriate" (politically motivated robbery) without engaging in armed struggle?

Creating a neighborhood is different from robbing banks, if you rob a bank your apartment commune is gonna get raided. I'm not opposed to either, there is a thread on the RAAN board, started by me, about trying to start a RAAN community actually.

Well, We will not come into direct opposition to the state, as in, gun battles etc, but expropriation, does not have to be done with a beret on, i mean just expropriate at first without letting on its anything but a robbery.

Latewr when support is high, the the workers can start to openly fight the state, and move into the higher phases of the struggle

With some bad ass Army vets like you, it will be a doddle :thumbup1:

[The Douche]

I think armed struggle here means through full blown revolution with armed struggle, rather than just pulling off some bank heists or two in armed struggle.

As for the rest, how I see it could work out first, is create your community around banks, or have a banks within your community. Then you wouldn't have to go out of your community, take it, come back, get raided, etc. Plus, depending on the community's size, which would probably be a fairly reasonable size, keeping the money would be reasonable. I'm not sure how keen cops are when they have to raise 100+ (maybe a little less) homes (counting apartments and various neighborhoods that would be under peaceful control.) Just to find a few hundred, maybe a couple grand worth of money.

100 homes? So you think you can get 200 or 300 people involved in this? Not gonna happen, most of the time these projects struggle to get 20 people involved. You have to have jobs, be able to pay bills etc, if you think you're gonna get that money through expropriation you're gonna need to be pretty dedicated to that. A few thousand dollars isn't gonna support shit, it would take hundreds of thousands. And what, you think because you rob the bank around the corner, nothings gonna happen? Ok buddy...

[Peter The Painter]

I am serious because I live in a real world and at least I, and I sure so many workers around the world feel the lack of a true revolutionary leader this time. At least, I don't want to be a part of the half baked sect of "anti-authoritarian" AH.:mad:

In b4 he becomes the first

MarxistLeninistMaoistThirdworldistAvakianistNewSyn thesistJucheBot :)

[The Douche]

Well, We will not come into direct opposition to the state, as in, gun battles etc, but expropriation, does not have to be done with a beret on, i mean just expropriate at first without letting on its anything but a robbery.

Latewr when support is high, the the workers can start to openly fight the state, and move into the higher phases of the struggle

With some bad ass Army vets like you, it will be a doddle :thumbup1:

Man, I am not runnin up in any banks. As soon as you start using that neighborhood/community for a base of illegal actions it will be a target. You think the cops won't figure out whats going on?

If you want to build intentional communities to use as physical manifestations/"base areas" I'm all for that. But I think you're wandering off into a very distant fantasy if you think you can just rob banks, distribute money, and get away with it. And if you think that will somehow start revolution, you are sadly mistaken.

Thinking that actions like those, committed by specialists and professionals, will result in revolution, is inherently anti-working class, and certainly something RAAN is opposed to. The point is to make the struggle broad, not confined to a select few.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Forgot to tell about Italy in the 70s, wen workers re-stared to occupie factories, organized militias (even took up the fight with the maffia in some places!) had some good wild cat strikes and along with this the workers neighbourhoods started to organize councils on how they wanted to live, to wich costs etc. During the same decade here in Sweden i heard that people did got out on "rent-strikes", they wouldn't pay the landlords prices.

[Peter The Painter]

Cmoney You miss understand, the point is, after consciousness is raised, and the community, or most of it, is radicalised, then, the to start off the assault on the state, ordinary workers will start to expropriate, baks, and the rich bastards who live like fat cats.

So, what will the governemnt do, assault the community right, but when they do that, the people will resist, and the anger and discontent will spread, and people will be reaching out to people in the workplace,and at school,and in the boozer.

Taxes not being payed, rioting, expropriation, the situation will escelate.

The cops heavy handedness will lead to more and more being radicalised, until, we have enough workers and weapons, when the people can rise up and take over factories and the trains and the estates, and resist the states efforts to take them back

No leaders, no vanguard, just workers.

[Magón]

100 homes? So you think you can get 200 or 300 people involved in this? Not gonna happen, most of the time these projects struggle to get 20 people involved. You have to have jobs, be able to pay bills etc, if you think you're gonna get that money through expropriation you're gonna need to be pretty dedicated to that. A few thousand dollars isn't gonna support shit, it would take hundreds of thousands. And what, you think because you rob the bank around the corner, nothings gonna happen? Ok buddy...

It wouldn't be anything fast or rampant, with suddenly 2-300 hundred people following and joining in. It would of course take time, and as you gain more and more people, then you gain more places/neighborhoods that are friendly, or at least sympathetic to what's happening. And I never said anything wouldn't happen, but it's going to be harder for police or any other form of State to get through, if the bank is surrounded by blocks of anti-State people, and barricades have been put in certain places to keep the State out anyway. (Now before you say the bank(s) you take won't sustain you for very long, especially with that many people, they wouldn't have to.) Like I said earlier, protests, speeches, rallies, etc. would all have to come first to show and tell people what's happening to them. That's where most people listen, rather than through this sudden action of robbing banks. People would be educated, and hopefully it'd all gradually come together and people would become self sustaining/sufficient. Gas stations, would be ran by those who worked at them. (Though I do hope, that the need for cars would have gone down considerably. Depending on where it is you live.) Stores would be ran by those working at them as well.

And also, I said that the production of food could also come from farming in one's backyard, or non-profit stores that are all around California for example. So you wouldn't necessarily be so dependent on things directly from the Super Market right down the street or a few blocks away. And if it was an Anarchist Community struggle, than paying bills/taxes would cease to be, and people would stop paying the state for what they currently occupy. People would on their own realization, cease paying taxes on their cars, homes, etc. and would find their own ways through collectives to successfully get to and where they want. That's why I took the University Town I live in as an example. If something like what I've said were to happen here, all that I've said earlier would have to have a part. Robbing banks, etc. would probably have to come in last or so, or at least during the transition from state power to people's self governing power.

[The Douche]

Look at exarchiea in Greece, the neighborhood is known as a hub for revolutionaries. The whole area lives and breathes anti-authoritarian, radical politics, according to you, that means revolution should be happening?

You're not really making sense.

[Peter The Painter]

Well, no, thats not the point.

I was talking about a strategy, after class consciosness is raised, and people are ready for revolution.

To get to this stage of course, we need to be reaching out to the community with things like homeless shelters, running daycare for single mothers, helping the elderly with heating bills and care.

The only way to raise consciousness as far as i am concerned is to help the people in everyday struggles.

If you got to bradford and give out preachy leaflets, you get no support, however if you go to bradford, and help the locals kick the BNP/NF out of their streets, you have some natural allies, who will listen, and maybe end up supporting, and fighting with you.

[Magón]

Look at exarchiea in Greece, the neighborhood is known as a hub for revolutionaries. The whole area lives and breathes anti-authoritarian, radical politics, according to you, that means revolution should be happening?

You're not really making sense.

Would you disagree that revolution is happening there? In Exarchia I mean, not just Greece as a whole. That's a pocket of hope, and so would anywhere else that started doing it. If you hadn't realized, Exarchia doesn't get a lot of news time, so the knowing of it is very limited and probably very differing depending on where you hear about it.

Revolution would start, when more and more people begin to see a "hub" as hope, and actual freedom, and start to say to themselves, "Hey, why isn't my neighborhood/community working in that manner?" Then you have that community begin its own little revolution from the State.

[Peter The Painter]

What Nin said, it would of course take time Cmoney, we are not talking a sponteneous uprising :)

Sorry if i wasunclear.

[777]

If I was to plan this community thing out it would go something like this:


1, A group of activists (about 4-8) come together and agree on working together in a specific area. It would be an area with a strong working class community.

2, the activists would need a base of operation. The best thing to do would be to set up a squat. This squat should be close to the target area, and preferably within it. If not, a council house, or private property would be good enough.The activists should set up the base so that they can be as self-sufficient as possible. Ideally it would have land to grow food on.

3, Each member of the group should invest a set amount of money into group funds - in proportion to their income.

4, the members of the group should all receive formal lessons in political and economic theory. They should all know what they are about. This would be an ongoing progress involving reading lists and such.

5, The group sets up a local blog so that people have an interface with the group. This blog can be used to bring up local issues and to teach. It is also a good contact point.

6, The group begin to work with other local activists, campaigning for relevant issues, community work ect and also go about spreading literature and propaganda in the area.

7, the group begins to become more involved in the local community. They are now activly setting up their own campaigns such as local credit unions and co-ops, youth projects and stuff.

All this action, concentrated in such a way by dedicated people can only serve to radicalize the community. Within two to three years you will likely have from the original 4-8 activists created 200+ activists.

[Peter The Painter]

777 I would replace the blog, with public speeches at libraries, or in the squat, the Internet, seems to isolate people.

[777]

777 I would replace the blog, with public speeches at libraries, or in the squat, the Internet, seems to isolate people.

Well, you gotta do both I reckon.

[Peter The Painter]

Yeah, i mean, if you do both, then thats good, but if you only use the blog, you end up with people who, maynot be interested in being active in real life.

But yeah, both should be done of course.

[Nachie]

God DAMN it would be sick if RAAN could start its own Exarcheia somewhere...

But I feel like this may not be possible while our numbers are so small. Of course tenant's unions and rent strikes and supermarket appropriations and things of that nature should definitely be organized on a case-by-case basis as opportunity arises for the people affected to assert autonomy and for us to act as an organized and militant enabler for that, but I think that unless some very specific opportunities arise we will be just putting ourselves on the course to burn out by trying to seize an entire neighborhood all at once.

In the meantime, actions should be focused so as to build the visibility and street credibility of the network and cement an identity as "folk heros" and a culture of resistance that people are very comfortable joining in themselves. This does not preclude any form of action, but it does mean that we must at all times avoid the type of specialization that cmoney was referring to. Specialization of individual cells with a particular interest in certain types of actions can be a good thing, but always with the idea that the entire populace needs to be armed, and cannot be represented in struggle by a tiny military wing. Also, specialization of actions should not occur before a sufficient culture of action and (anti-)political consciousness has been cultivated in general, so that the attentions of any one group of people on particular forms of action does not impede the growth of the tendency as a whole and its encompassing of all available tactics.

So while I think open class war and gaining direct control of neighborhoods and defending physical territory is the eventual goal and steps towards it (even on a temporary basis) should be made whenever serious opportunities present themselves, for now we need to maintain that overarching strategic focus which demands that we engage in more cultural, media-savvy actions and long-term organizing with the goal of nurturing us as a general organization in the neighborhoods, as only that will eventually make our more ambitious goals more realistic.

[AK]

Ben G
Wtf, since when was Ben G a Maoist? :confused::confused:
I'm not aware of any other Ben Gs on this board, so you must be talking about The Ben G - he's a Trotskyist, ya hear?

[Peter The Painter]

authoritarian then, they are pretty much the same :)

[Chambered Word]

authoritarian then, they are pretty much the same :)

Maoism is a very long shot from Trotskyism.

[Peter The Painter]

yeah, maoists openly become nationalistic, Trots parrot the idea of spreading revolution, even though they, are the exact same beauracratic mess.

Just my opinion, I am not sectarian.

I love all radicals, except those focoist bastards...no just kidding even them.:laugh:

[Reznov]

I think armed struggle here means through full blown revolution with armed struggle, rather than just pulling off some bank heists or two in armed struggle.

As for the rest, how I see it could work out first, is create your community around banks, or have a banks within your community. Then you wouldn't have to go out of your community, take it, come back, get raided, etc. Plus, depending on the community's size, which would probably be a fairly reasonable size, keeping the money would be reasonable. I'm not sure how keen cops are when they have to raise 100+ (maybe a little less) homes (counting apartments and various neighborhoods that would be under peaceful control.) Just to find a few hundred, maybe a couple grand worth of money.

How many people do you think we would need to get started? I really like the idea of the apartment complex, and maybe you could possibly buy out the entire building of all the complexs and use that? Or have a house with a lot of acres of land I guess.

But before staritng all this, do you think RAAN or whatever party/group should try to accumulate a bunch of money before this all happens to buy the land/apartments, enough food in the beginning, enough supplies form the start and to basically act as a backup if any problems that arise that force us to spend money? (Like a car breaking down, person getting sick/hurt?)

Also, should a member be given a sum of money for a gun and bullets for protection of the commune? (Should every member in the commune learn how to shoot a gun and get mandatory exercise?)

[Peter The Painter]

BUYING or renting flats is not revolutionary, however, occupying them, whooping the landlords arse, and fighting the pigs who come to reclaim them is, if say the whole RAAn group got to about 30 members, they could break into newly developed, posh private flats, and let all the homeless, and all the radicals come and live, free of charge.

The cops might be able to take them back, but, the idea is to throw up little acts of resistance, to show workers that we can take back whats our, and if the rich, and their phsycopigs wanna take it back, we will fight them.

This builds class consciousness.

Imagine if consciousness was high when Ian Tomlinson was killed, we would have another greece on our hands.

so acompany these acts of resistance, with programs in the communisty, like, helping the elderly, running daycare, free soup kitchens etc, you have an insurrection, waiting to happen.

[communard71]

Armed struggle is pointless unless a dedicated revolutionary group decided to attack the infrastructure of a first world country. Telecommunications would have to be a primary target. Face to face combat with western military units would end in disaster. Strategically, small groups of revolutionaries would need to be positioned around major transportation lines while communication systems the government used were hacked and either interrupted or completely neutralized. The tactical goal would be to seize a small geographical area and force the government’s reaction, i.e. the Paris Commune. The inevitably overblown response might be the matchstick needed for larger class-consciousness. :star2:

[Reznov]

BUYING or renting flats is not revolutionary, however, occupying them, whooping the landlords arse, and fighting the pigs who come to reclaim them is, if say the whole RAAn group got to about 30 members, they could break into newly developed, posh private flats, and let all the homeless, and all the radicals come and live, free of charge.

The cops might be able to take them back, but, the idea is to throw up little acts of resistance, to show workers that we can take back whats our, and if the rich, and their phsycopigs wanna take it back, we will fight them.

This builds class consciousness.

Imagine if consciousness was high when Ian Tomlinson was killed, we would have another greece on our hands.

so acompany these acts of resistance, with programs in the communisty, like, helping the elderly, running daycare, free soup kitchens etc, you have an insurrection, waiting to happen.

While that sounds pretty nice, it sadly doesn't work in the real world. People are not going to just take over land and then begin fighting cops.

[Peter The Painter]

communard71, you sound like a baaderMeinhoff s choolkid.

How would screwing with the British Armies coms make a iota of difference, straight up struggle, with the best trained millitary in the world, can only result in dead workers.

The workers are the only ones who can, and should lead a revolution.

Vanguards bwecome eliteist
The leaders become murdering paranoid wrecks
the workser never get to control the means of production, and in turn their own destiny.

Your importance, is based on how active you are and how dedicated you are, but you never get to tell other workers what to do, or hold power or authority over any section of the working class.

[Peter The Painter]

Thats why i said community programs, and marches and speeches will have to come first, but, i mean why after we have quite a bit of support, I would be ok with doing shit for the cause.

[Magón]

How many people do you think we would need to get started? I really like the idea of the apartment complex, and maybe you could possibly buy out the entire building of all the complexs and use that? Or have a house with a lot of acres of land I guess.

Sadly, if you were to buy out entire buildings, your whole temporary profit would be gone in hours. That's why it's best to get people listening, doing it themselves, and spreading the message through rallies, speeches, etc. Places where large gatherings can take place for one, is probably the most important to get the ball rolling. I'd say a range of 8-10 people to start it all, and gather more people as more information is given out by the 8-10 people. Then I'd say you'd probably have a nice little varying range of maybe a 50+ people. Then they just take it from there, by holding rally after rally, speech after speech, handing more and more info out to the masses. Once you've got that, and have had a large enough people, then you can begin taking over apartments, etc.

Because in the 1st World, it's no doubt that cops would come in and tear down a small group trying to succeed with this. So having numbers is important in the matter I think, of starting a powerful revolution in the 1st World.


But before staritng all this, do you think RAAN or whatever party/group should try to accumulate a bunch of money before this all happens to buy the land/apartments, enough food in the beginning, enough supplies form the start and to basically act as a backup if any problems that arise that force us to spend money? (Like a car breaking down, person getting sick/hurt?)

Buying of land wouldn't happen, people would just cease paying the money that they would normally have to do, but of course still inhabit their apartments, homes, etc. This would be accomplished first, by speeches, rallies, etc. to show people that it's not only them who's doing it, and that many people can do it, and not be afraid to do it, no matter what the backlashing is. It's basically ceasing to allow Capitalists to continue controlling the land or grounds, that they don't really have any power. Sort of show that they have really no power to tell these people you have to pay rent, etc.


Also, should a member be given a sum of money for a gun and bullets for protection of the commune? (Should every member in the commune learn how to shoot a gun and get mandatory exercise?)

Guns and such would probably come last, and probably be the final stage, once enough of these communes arise. Because if you have the cops come busting in, they're going to confiscate the weapons and ammunition anyway, and if they see guns, they're going to start shooting first. (But yes, learning to shoot a gun would become something mandatory, as it'd be an armed populous, rather than an typical Western World Military.) And along with exercise, I don't see why it'd have to be mandatory, but I think that it'd be up to the individual person to choose whether they work out or not. I think with all the work being done by those being apart of this idea, would get enough exercise, or start getting exercise enough.

[Peter The Painter]

yeah, guns are a part of the last stage.

its about the microphone, the brick, the pipe, the petrol bomb.

A loudspeaker can resound louder with a single mum, with a shivering elderly couple in the winter, with a black guy being pushed against the wall by snarling pigs, more than any gun can.

[communard71]

[QUOTE=Peter The Painter;1855361]communard71, you sound like a baaderMeinhoff s choolkid.

How would screwing with the British Armies coms make a iota of difference, straight up struggle, with the best trained millitary in the world, can only result in dead workers.

I said exactly that, face to face combat is ill-advised under present circumstances. Also, I'm talking on the level of abstraction, what would we do if a fight happened, for anyone having served in the military, you would relaize how important communication and control is. Baader Meinhoff schoolkid? I'm not sure what that means except your insulting me, kinda lame.

[Peter The Painter]

wasnt an insult, but seriously, no wrecking comms is not high on the scale of to do list of the masses who rise up and overthrow the system.

Maybe to some guerrillas who are detached from the workers.

[Blood]

Communications has it's advantages and disadvantages of attacking first. The Cons of attacking it first are that they will not stop the government communication drastically. The Pros are the people who blindly follow Capitalism will really have nothing to look to for real guidance except for the government. The government would tell everyone to stay at home. This would minimize the risk of casualties when the attack on the governmental headquarters occurs (if it were ever to occur).