No money vs equal pay for all vs differing pay

[COMPLEXproductions]

Okay, so I know my answer(may change depending on what I read from here and various places). Ideally most of us want a place with no money whatever. I wanna know:
1)Should we have no money as an end result?
2)Are any currency forms unrealistic?
And my favorite,
3)How should we go about reaching YOUR global ideal?(Or your nationalistic ideal if you're nationalist)


And PLEASE if we could refrain from debates of any sort. I just want to know YOUR SET ideas individually. It helps me understand better. I can argue the points on my own for myself.(Though I foresee that the more replies here, the less this request is met.)

[Peter The Painter]

The thing is, even if we are all paid the same, we are still having to work for a wage, and if there are no bourgoise, then who will pay this wage, since in communism, there is no state, so how could we be paid in a communist society?

In simple terms, when capitalism stops, money becomes a relic of the old mode of production, and we no longer will have use or need for money, as profit and bills will not even exist :)

[Zanthorus]

Money should be abolished, but it would still be necessary to have some unit of account in order to plan production efficiently. I agree with Paul Cockshott that labour-time accounting is the way to go.

[COMPLEXproductions]

The thing is, even if we are all paid the same, we are still having to work for a wage, and if there are no bourgoise, then who will pay this wage, since in communism, there is no state, so how could we be paid in a communist society?

In simple terms, when capitalism stops, money becomes a relic of the old mode of production, and we no longer will have use or need for money, as profit and bills will not even exist :)

How would production and labor go about in your envisioned society?

[Peter The Painter]

worers would elect councils to implement their ideas and keep things running smoothly, these councils could be removed/elected at any time, and each councilmember has no power, except that given by the workers to be their workplace representative.

All property would be made communal, and all people given jobs, as money would not be an issue like nowadays where people are layed off and there are always unemployed in capitalism.

Production of goods would become plentifull as people not profit would be the key factor.

The working day could be cut to 5 hours or so.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Money can and should be abolished, and in my estimation this can be achieved my making the transition to a kind of economy based on actual resources (energy, materials and skilled labour).

The Venus Project have an article (http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy) on the subject of resource-based economies.

Technocracy Incorporated was the first to propose energy accounting (http://www.technocracy.org/transition/banking-system/227-economysocialbrief29) as a replacement for the monetary system. What this would mean for most end-users would be that instead of exchanging money for goods and services, an energy distribution card (http://www.surepost.org/fileManager/viewFile.php?group=5&sec=7&SID=&user=&id=1) would record acquirement of goods and use of services.

EOS (http://www.eoslife.eu/) has an article by Dr Wallace (http://www.eoslife.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=176:thermoeconomics-the-use-of-exergy-in-alternative-socioeconomics&catid=23:economics&Itemid=95) on a simlar idea; thermoeconomics, base on exergy, a unit that measures the usable energy in a system.

Also worth reading is Cult of Reason's Introduction to Anarchist Communist Technocracy (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=39).

Some alternative systems, such as labour vouchers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_voucher), share some of currency's problems, but you can't fake energy.

Economic systems that are traditionally advocated by anarchists, such as mutual aid and gift economies, function better on smaller scales such as self-sufficient communities (c. 200 people) or between members of informal or semi-formal groups. For this reason it would be entirely unsurprising if such petty economies were to be coexistent with larger-scale resource-based economies.

As for how such systems are to be set in place, I pretty much agree with Cult of Reason:


1. Advocate both Federalist Anarchism and ACT, with the former having slightly higher priority.
2. Have a Libertarian Socialist revolution, with a majority of Federalists and a minority of the Federalists being avowed Technocrats.
3. Set up a Federalist Anarchist system across Northwestern Eurafricasia and the Americas, at the least, which either has a top level of federation on a continental or a national scale (the latter is relatively easy to amend, with just one extra layer of federation), but no smaller. "Small-workshop"-ists and Villagists must be vehemently opposed.
4. Adopt Energy Accounting and other Technocratic concepts and start separating the technical and social structures, if they are not separate already.
5. Construct technate infrastructure, Urbanates, the Hydrology etc..

[Die Neue Zeit]

Some alternative systems, such as labour vouchers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_voucher), share some of currency's problems, but you can't fake energy.

You're assuming that labour vouchers will be physical and not electronic. :glare:

[COMPLEXproductions]

You're assuming that labour vouchers will be physical and not electronic. :glare:

I agree, but you aren't stating what it is you would do either :) . If you would please do so, I'd appreciate it

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You're assuming that labour vouchers will be physical and not electronic. :glare:

That just makes one of the problems worse - electronic data can be flawlessly copied with an absolutely minimal expenditure of energy. Most money nowadays is in digital form, and by far the biggest producers of spurious "value" aren't forgers, but the major banks who arbitrarily increase the total of their account through various means.

I'm not convinced that a similar kind of inventive book-keeping would not eventually transpire under a labour voucher system.

On the other hand, energy production and usage can be directly measured using physical means. The efficiency of a process can be measured by how much wasted energy (heat, noise, vibration etc) it gives off. Materials can be weighed to see how much there is, and inspected for its quality. Workers can be given assessments, tests and exams to determine the scope of their abilities, and can be given training to further them.

But perhaps instead of starting an argument, you could give us a link; I'm sure you've gone into more depth on the subject than is possible in a debate.