Is Catholicism closer to revolutionary politics than Protestantism?

[graffic]

If the title is true, i wonder if anyone knows if there is any theological reason for this. The reason i think this may be true is that by looking at religious socialists I see many are Catholic. Hugo Chavez is a Roman Catholic, philosopher Terry Eagleton describes himself interestingly as a Catholic Marxist and the Labour party in England has strong foundations of Catholic trade unionists.

[Devrim]

I don't think that it is true in any way. Both forms of Christianity are equally reactionary, and people engage in class struggle despite not because of them.

Devrim

[Kiev Communard]

The Catholic version of Christianity is more paternalist, historicaly having emphasized the feudal-style "mutual obligations' between the exploiting and exploited classes due to its role as an ideological underpinning of West European feudalism and later Absolutism, while the Protestant ideology is more individualistic and (in case of Calvinism) openly proclaims the disdain for "lazy poors". However, as Devrim pointed out, both versions of Christianity advocate class society - Catholic one more rigid and hierarchical, Protestant one "competitive" and relatively decentralized, - and therefore can't be reconciled with any scientific theory of socialism.

[bcbm]

"protestantism" isn't really a useful term given that it encompasses a wide range of theological ideas, with lutheranism and the like historically working against proto-communist sects like the anabaptists.

the catholic church does place emphasis on helping the poor and "good deeds" while the dominant protestant sects, as mentioned, often vilify the poor as deserving their lot and are responsible for the "protestant work ethic," perhaps one of the worst ideas created.

[Sasha]

Actually they both have had theological motivated revolutionary tendencys.
Southern American Catholics like chaves are influenced by liberation theology.
Like wise there have been revolutionary currents in Protestantism (like the wederdopers), also in ww2 there was an fierce protestant resistance current. They bases their resistance on the principle of that there is only a king in heaven, and not on earth.

[Devrim]

"protestantism" isn't really a useful term given that it encompasses a wide range of theological ideas, with lutheranism and the like historically working against proto-communist sects like the anabaptists.

They are not proto-communist anymore though, are they? I think the days when religion was used as an expression of 'proto-communist' politics have long since finished.

As for whether it is a useful term or not, it does say something even if it doesn't define it very well. You could say a similar thing about the word 'Islam'.

Devrim

[Zanthorus]

Hugo Chavez is a Roman Catholic, philosopher Terry Eagleton describes himself interestingly as a Catholic Marxist and the Labour party in England has strong foundations of Catholic trade unionists.

You've just refuted your own argument.

[graffic]

Interesting replies. Zanthorus, Terry Eagleton is certainly a revolutionary and i don't see why Hugo Chavez would not be described as a revolutionary.

I think it has a lot to do with the "Protestant work ethic". Countries with more Catholic influence such as Italy, Spain, Latin America don't have such a strong work ethic in society and culture etc

[Invincible Summer]

Although Catholicism is more hierarchical, it does focus a lot of energy into "good deeds" and such. Lots of soup kitchens around here are run by Catholic missions.

Protestants seem to be more reactionary... I mean, televangelism and the Prosperity Gospel are borne from Protestantism.

[Adi Shankara]

Although Catholicism is more hierarchical, it does focus a lot of energy into "good deeds" and such. Lots of soup kitchens around here are run by Catholic missions.

Not only that, but the Catholic homeless shelter I occasionally volunteer at has no requirement to convert, or do they pressure any of the homeless to convert. I'm not sure about all priests or catholic institutions, but I can say with confidence that the one I volunteer at genuinely cares about the homeless. (also, they don't try to convert me either :P)

[Queercommie Girl]

Not only that, but the Catholic homeless shelter I occasionally volunteer at has no requirement to convert, or do they pressure any of the homeless to convert. I'm not sure about all priests or catholic institutions, but I can say with confidence that the one I volunteer at genuinely cares about the homeless. (also, they don't try to convert me either :P)

I wonder however what they would say if a transgendered person like me turns up to their service to volunteer...

[Invincible Summer]

I wonder however what they would say if a transgendered person like me turns up to their service to volunteer...

Well I mean if they serve all different types of people, then I'm sure they won't turn away someone who wants to help.


They may pray for your soul behind your back though :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

I wonder however what they would say if a transgendered person like me turns up to their service to volunteer...

As someone that worked at a similar Catholic shelter in NYC--they wouldn't bother or question or have any issue with you at all. Helping in one thing--conversion is another. If you expressed an interest in converting--and that would be from you on your own accord with no prompting--they would explain their religion. If you didn't ask first you'd never hear about it. And I agree with (the former) Thomas--they do care about the people they work with.


They may pray for your soul behind your back though :lol: For you--not worth the wear and tear on the knees. :D

[Weezer]

http://www.catholicworker.org/

:thumbup1:

[Bud Struggle]

http://www.catholicworker.org/

:thumbup1:Actually when I was in grad school in NYC I used to live in the East Village and cook/pass out newspapers for them.

Great Stuff. That was the Catholic group I was talking about.

[Adi Shankara]

I wonder however what they would say if a transgendered person like me turns up to their service to volunteer...

In all my time, I never seen them turn away anyone, and that included someone who was HIV positive and a pre-op transexual teenager. I think that's why I have more respect for catholic charities than other charities, for they put their money where their mouth is.

[the last donut of the night]

I don't think so. Both funded, or supported in some way, counterrevolutionary and reactionary forces in society: the KKK was heavily supported by southern Protestant churches while the Falange was heavily supported by the Spanish Catholic Church.

[Crimson Commissar]

Both catholicism and protestantism are reactionary religions. Although I'd say catholicism is slightly more reactionary due to how close the catholic church is to an absolute monarchy.

[bcbm]

They are not proto-communist anymore though, are they? I think the days when religion was used as an expression of 'proto-communist' politics have long since finished.

the anabaptists no longer exist, but some of their descendants like the bruderhofs practice a communal lifestyle and hold very similar theological ideas, minus the violent millenarian aspects that were central to muntzer and the early anabaptists.


As for whether it is a useful term or not, it does say something even if it doesn't define it very well. You could say a similar thing about the word 'Islam'.i am not saying the term is completely useless but in the context of this discussion it doesn't really work. catholicism describes a more or less coherent theological set of ideas while protestantism encompasses diametrically opposed factions.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Neither. Both pre-suppose the existence of a man-god who wants us all to kiss his ass.

[Devrim]

the anabaptists no longer exist, but some of their descendants like the bruderhofs practice a communal lifestyle and hold very similar theological ideas, minus the violent millenarian aspects that were central to muntzer and the early anabaptists.

But that is all that it is today, a lifestyle. It posses no challenge to power, which various millenarian sects obviously did.


i am not saying the term is completely useless but in the context of this discussion it doesn't really work. catholicism describes a more or less coherent theological set of ideas while protestantism encompasses diametrically opposed factions.

Yes, fair enough.

Devrim

[Queercommie Girl]

In all my time, I never seen them turn away anyone, and that included someone who was HIV positive and a pre-op transexual teenager. I think that's why I have more respect for catholic charities than other charities, for they put their money where their mouth is.

I do think that modern Catholics are better than Protestants in this regard. Also Catholics are likely to be more inclusive with respect to other religions and less fundamentalist.

[bcbm]

But that is all that it is today, a lifestyle. It posses no challenge to power, which various millenarian sects obviously did.

i wasn't trying to suggest otherwise

[Tavarisch_Mike]

As others allready said, neither do i think that some religion are better then the other, its more about the people. But one thing i noticed is that here in Scandinavia even if we are very secular, we also have this picture of that in some way protenstantism is just little more progressive with decentralization frome Rom. In reality chatolics tend to dont follow theire moral codes all the time and thanks to Luther we now have this fundamentalistic nuts who think that we must belive in evry singel word thats written in the bible.

[Conquer or Die]

Iseul is hilarious. This is his thought process:

"Feeding the poor!!! Those bastards wouldn't do the same for poor old me!"

"Reactionary Assholes are Transophobic!"

"I'm such a fighter for good because I'm posting on this website unlike those people feeding the poor."

Trash.

[Queercommie Girl]

Iseul is hilarious. This is his thought process:

"Feeding the poor!!! Those bastards wouldn't do the same for poor old me!"

"Reactionary Assholes are Transophobic!"

"I'm such a fighter for good because I'm posting on this website unlike those people feeding the poor."

Trash.

So you think transphobia is a trivial issue? That is one refuses to help someone simply because he/she is transgendered is not a big deal? So if someone who is both trans and poor is refused by a religious charity simply because he/she is trans, it doesn't really matter because the charity helps a lot of other poor people who are not trans?

This has nothing to do with me personally. I wasn't talking about "getting fed" at charities, but rather volunteering to work at charities. And don't refer to me as a "he", I'm a "she".

"Feeding the poor" isn't an excuse to be transphobic. Just because someone helps a lot of poor people doesn't mean everything else they say or do automatically becomes permissible.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Trash.

Yep, that's how I'd summarise your posts.

[Conquer or Die]

So you think transphobia is a trivial issue? That is one refuses to help someone simply because he/she is transgendered is not a big deal? So if someone who is both trans and poor is refused by a religious charity simply because he/she is trans, it doesn't really matter because the charity helps a lot of other poor people who are not trans?

You made the claim, not anybody else. You inferred that they're bastards just because they might as well be bastards. If they DID refuse service than that would be an issue, but this wasn't claimed anywhere.


This has nothing to do with me personally. I wasn't talking about "getting fed" at charities, but rather volunteering to work at charities. And don't refer to me as a "he", I'm a "she".

"He" or "She" it's about YOU. Not the universal "YOU" but the revleft comrade Iseul.


"Feeding the poor" isn't an excuse to be transphobic. Just because someone helps a lot of poor people doesn't mean everything else they say or do automatically becomes permissible.

Being Transgendered doesn't give you carte blanche to piss on the good work of others with blind inferences. Somebody who legitimately helps the poor is a good person, and that obviously doesn't make everything they do or say right.

By the way, why is the fact that you're Transgendered important? Who are YOU to judge? YOU made a personal choice for YOURSELF. People who feed the poor make a choice to HELP OTHERS. They deserve more respect than you do based on this simple, binary analysis.

[Queercommie Girl]

You made the claim, not anybody else. You inferred that they're bastards just because they might as well be bastards. If they DID refuse service than that would be an issue, but this wasn't claimed anywhere.


I suggest you read more carefully. I never inferred that "they were bastards". I'm not the kind of person to make random unsupported accusations. I don't even agree with militant atheism. I didn't conclude that they must be transphobic. I just had my doubts. One has the right to have doubts, particularly given the history of Christian attitudes on LGBT issues in general.



Being Transgendered doesn't give you carte blanche to piss on the good work of others with blind inferences. Somebody who legitimately helps the poor is a good person, and that obviously doesn't make everything they do or say right.


As I said, I just had my doubts, I didn't even accuse anyone directly in any way.

You really should learn to read better.



By the way, why is the fact that you're Transgendered important? Who are YOU to judge? YOU made a personal choice for YOURSELF. People who feed the poor make a choice to HELP OTHERS. They deserve more respect than you do based on this simple, binary analysis.

Nice try. Except:

1) I'm not into "identity politics" in the bourgeois consumerist sense. My interest in trans issues is political. That is to say, I care about the trans and LGBT community as a whole, not primarily about myself.

2) I'm far from a "single-issue" activist. I care about much more than just LGBT politics, otherwise I won't even be here on RevLeft.

Don't start accusing other people before you even get the facts straight.

[Conquer or Die]

Mediocre to poor dodge on your part. Make bold, silly, and selfish claims and then start using terms you don't understand.

[Queercommie Girl]

Mediocre to poor dodge on your part. Make bold, silly, and selfish claims and then start using terms you don't understand.

Ok. Here is what I actually said:

I wonder however what they would say if a transgendered person like me turns up to their service to volunteer...

How you can misinterpret that as me conclusively calling them transphobic bastards is beyond my ability to comprehend.