Exploitation of workers by small Irish businesses.

[Palingenisis]

For anyone who thinks small capitalists are in anyway "progressive" here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaPWzBCGycg&p=FB100DB16B6F05AC&playnext=1&index=15
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaPWzBCGycg&p=FB100DB16B6F05AC&playnext=1&index=15)

[Die Neue Zeit]

Did you read my stuff on Cooperative Production?

[Peter The Painter]

The thing is, people live in capitalist society, so, of course they end up the smaller image of their own opressor.

People do not understand the system is inhumane, so they just try and do the best they can to make things as good as possible for themselves and their family, the only was to spread workers solidarity, is to expose the true nature of the society we are forced to live in.

But yes, those who overtly exploit and degrade workers need to be dealt with.

I would suggest expropriating small buisnessmen who are oppresive, but only if we take strides to knock the big fish on their ass too.

The top handfull of hedgefund managers made 25 billion last year, so, all in all, these people are the fat cats, unless we fight them, fighting small buisnesses will just get people unemployed.

[Palingenisis]

I would suggest expropriating small buisnessmen who are oppresive, but only if we take strides to knock the big fish on their ass too.

The top handfull of hedgefund managers made 25 billion last year, so, all in all, these people are the fat cats, unless we fight them, fighting small buisnesses will just get people unemployed.

I posted this because their is this romantic preferance in a lot of the left here for small native business as opposed to huge transnationals but from the point of view of the working class its often better to work for the latter. Some Trotskyite even said here that small businesses shouldnt be expropriated! I would expropriate them all...However I do think that working farmers are a seperate issue.

[Peter The Painter]

For a dirty evil stalinist, you are spot on :)

So, why are farmers seperate, they are claiming land as their own, they should be made to give the produce they do not need to the workers, otherwise expropriate away.

No one has the right to buy and sell the earth for private gain.

[gorillafuck]

Some Trotskyite even said here that small businesses shouldnt be expropriated!
I've never heard a Trotskyist say that. I've only ever heard that sort of thing from Maoists.

[Palingenisis]

I've never heard a Trotskyist say that. I've only ever heard that sort of thing from Maoists.

Red Dave made that comment (I think it was in the process of giving out about Stalin's collectivization).

[Palingenisis]

So, why are farmers seperate, they are claiming land as their own, they should be made to give the produce they do not need to the workers, otherwise expropriate away.

No one has the right to buy and sell the earth for private gain.

Because working farmers (Im not talking about big farmers) like craftspeople who dont employ anyone else actually produce stuff themselves. They arent basically leechs on human activity the way small business are.

[Peter The Painter]

But they own land, and if they refuse to grow communaly for workers, aswell as themselves, when a peoples revolution is happening, I am sure the masses would just take their produce, of course leaving them what they need to eat.

Also, alot of small bakeries and shops gave quite alot to revolutionary groups in the US, such as giving it for community food drives etc, so, not all petit bourgoisie are evil, some just work hard and, actually, put more hours in than most workers.

Some shops, only employ their family, we have a corner shop, where the guy, who moved here from India, employs his relatives, does he deserve to be expropriated?

A Chinese guy own the chippy, and employs his family, this breeds alot of exenophobia, ie, locals often refer to the corner shop as the "paki shop"

What is your opinion of these buisnesses?

[Palingenisis]

But they own land, and if they refuse to grow communaly for workers, aswell as themselves, when a peoples revolution is happening, I am sure the masses would just take their produce, of course leaving them what they need to eat.


I think these questions will have to be sorted out on a case to case basis. Obviously if they present any trouble whatsoever to the revolution they must be swept aside....As socialization happens though I would see tiny business people being absorbed quietly into the proletariat.

However there is a class conciousness of the petit-bourgieouse best summed up by the word "mean".

[Palingenisis]

Has RAAN written anything on the agarian question?

If so Id like to read it. :)

[Peter The Painter]

I do not know mate, I think they would support expropriation, by the workers, for the gain of the workers.

But never expropriation, by a "revolutionary party state", which just becomes the new rulling class.

If any RAAN & ROLLers wanna say what they think, please let us know.

Pallegenisis, RAAN does not have an official line, it has no party line, as it is not a party, just autonomous groups of badass radicals :)

BTW, just out of curiosity, does Palegenisis mean rebirth?

[Nachie]

Re: RAAN, we do not have anything very specific to the agrarian question laid out, but I did briefly discuss Venezuelan campesino movements and the need for land seizure/reform in my text The Civil War in Venezuela and we have often discussed within the network our preference for the Cuban model of permaculture and organic urban farming whereby communities directly control their own food production, which is something I'm sure we could extrapolate into rural areas :)

As you say though I think many things will have to be decided on a case by case basis since there is no blueprint for communism, and in the short term we need not focus on ideologically rigid pronouncements of what will happen where, but moreso on developing the practical unity in theory/activity - expressed as a physical organization/network - that creates the possibility for solutions to be found.

[Peter The Painter]

The thing is though Nachie, at least over here, the Libertarian/Anarchist/Councilist movement, has turned into a lifestylist thing, which is eliteist, and seeks to isolate itself, rather than becom a mass movement.

Insurrectionists oppose any organisation, and working with leninists, if you are anti authoritarian, is simply impossible, as major differences that cannot be settled rule out any cohesion.

The fact that, its harder to join a Anarchist/Council group, or even hear about one here, spells out, how dead the movement is, some Anarchists i have talked to, say that they want everyone "not to have to work after a revolution"

This hippy liberalism has slowly been sinking, and the antiauthoritarian left, needs to start building up again from scratch.

New ideas must be formed, and as you say, a steady working movement established, before we can even contemplate expropriation of small buisnesses as a current issue.

[Palingenisis]

The thing is though Nachie, at least over here, the Libertarian/Anarchist/Councilist movement, has turned into a lifestylist thing, which is eliteist, and seeks to isolate itself, rather than becom a mass movement.

.

This thread was aimed at pointing out to certain Left-Nationalists their niavity and even their treachery in favouring "Orish" small businesses...However Cafe Irie the business in that clip has a very "right-on" hippie/punk image with posters for punkie/indie bands and even anarchist meetings on the wall and people with dreadlocks serving you...And yet....

[Nachie]

I think there are definite parallels to be found in the historical demand for "black-owned businesses" in the United States. Such calls were usually advanced during comparatively less advanced stages of the civil rights struggle, or put forward by nationalist groups such as the Nation of Islam, who had no interest in preventing the creation of a black bourgeoisie and perhaps even wanted to become it.

See also the way the Black Panthers changed point 3 of their Ten Point Program from "We Want An End To The Robbery By The White Man Of The Black Community." to "We Want An End To The Robbery By The Capitalists Of Our Black Community." :)

[Peter The Painter]

Huey Newton ended up spending thousands of party funds on Cognac, renting a penthouse, and scoring smack.

He started out with the real intention to do good, he even became a communist, focusing on class, but he said, the white man is fighting for better pay, he can get a haircut and join the establishment anytime, us black people are the natural allies of the third world and the proletariat.

Black Nationalism is anti worker.

And I do not see how anyone can say that Irish Republicanism is not.

The Irish are under imperialism, but are not being killed and hunted, unless the Irish people were still being burnt out of their homes and being ethnically cleansed, I do not see why the Irish English Scottish Welsh cornish nations cannot become one after a revolution.

all nationalism is bad, as it removes the focus from class to nation state struggle, but seeing as I reject the nation and the state, i do not support ireland,or England or Scotland or wales.

How does blowing up packed pubs help the proletariat?

[Palingenisis]

I think there are definite parallels to be found in the historical demand for "black-owned businesses" in the United States. Such calls were usually advanced during comparatively less advanced stages of the civil rights struggle, or put forward by nationalist groups such as the Nation of Islam, who had no interest in preventing the creation of a black bourgeoisie and perhaps even wanted to become it.


Not really because small business people in the 26 counties suffer NO national oppression....And even in the occupied six counties I am beinging to be sceptical of the "Broad Front".

[Peter The Painter]

And by the way, I am not an English chauvanist, I understand the Irish have the right to fight Imperialism, but the People do, these fucking IRA groups are fucking nationalistic to the core.

Apparently a guy on here supports killing Pizza delivery men as collaborators, i mean seriously, that is just disgusting. and when pubs are bombed, all it does is set the English workers against the Irish cause.

I mean if we are honest, the Irish struggle, is based on the fat Imperialism is wrong and it has raped Ireland, not because of horrific living standards, People in Northern Ireland, The republic, and the UK, are all pretty much the same, Its not like the Irish are starving, because we English workers are nicking your produce, This whole, fuck the Brits is bollocks, how about fuck the capitalists/imperialists.

The fact the SDLP had more support than the SF and IRA, shows just how marginal support was anyway, like 99 percent were catholic, only way the 6 counties can become free, is if the sectarian lines broke.

[Palingenisis]

There are SO many thread discussing the six counties lets not turn this into another....But as someone with a good bit of prod the SDLP or as they are known here the Stoops tend to be a LOT more sectarian than the Shinners and in general the Dissoes tend to be a less sectarian than the Shinner again. The occupied north of Ireland is not a simple place (Carson who was brought up in Dublin had an Italian Roman Catholic mammy for instance....And very, very, very probaly didnt believe a word that he ranted up there).

[Palingenisis]

The fact the SDLP had more support than the SF and IRA, shows just how marginal support was anyway, like 99 percent were catholic, only way the 6 counties can become free, is if the sectarian lines broke.

The Stoops did not have a LOT more support....And the Stoops are on there way to non-existance now. A lot of people didnt vote but passively or actively supported the militarary campaign especially after the Officials went went weird in the 80s.

[Peter The Painter]

SF, have just made Gerry Adams AN d Martin, career politicians, they aint living in some nationalist Ghetto up North, with no job, or prospects are they.

And as i said, in WW2 the soldiers reason for fighting was different from the Ruling classes reason for fighting.

The rank and file in my viw, were just fighting to defend their communities, but the people who ordered bombings on pubs, and shopping centres, are the same type, who would replace Britanias Huns with their long range guns, with Irelands Huns, and their capitalist sons.

The only war is class war, this includes fighting imperialism, as it is ruling classes paid soldiers, against the people, but, unless it can get both communities in Ulster together, whats the point in blowing shit up, it just devides the workers.

[Kano]

I posted this because their is this romantic preferance in a lot of the left here for small native business as opposed to huge transnationals but from the point of view of the working class its often better to work for the latter. Some Trotskyite even said here that small businesses shouldnt be expropriated! I would expropriate them all...However I do think that working farmers are a seperate issue.

So lets say you're a person who is interested in fashion, or film or music. How is your passion to be fed if there are to be no small businesses? Small businesses are usually run by people who have a passion for thier chosen field. They run music shops, art and culture events etc...Having a country which only produces things that humans need to survive, like bread, water and clothes is not a place anybody is going to want to live.

Humans by default are creative, it is not evil to be interested in things other than politics. Its perfectly normal to have an interest in nice food or arts and crafts. How are these hobbies to succeed in a country with no small businesses?

Its a question the left seems to be ignoring. How to deal with the middle class before and after revolution.