According to my classical political theory professor, Plato invented communism

[GPDP]

So I'm taking a course on classical political theory, which covers the ancient Greeks all the way to Machiavelli, and my professor, a 30-something newly-minted doctor, starts telling us about Plato and his Republic. She then said the following gem, paraphrased:

"In his Republic, Plato even outlaws love. This means Plato came up with the first communist society. Marx schmarx, Plato thought of it first."

You heard it here first, guys: communists are anti-love, and our ideological father is not Marx, but Plato.

Is it wrong for me to question her credentials?

[JazzRemington]

well, having a Ph.D. (or in some cases, a master's) doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're talking about. I'd call her on it.

[leftace53]

I am against love. Therefore all communists are against love. Thus a communist society is anti-love and pro-hate. I thought this was a well known fact among communists?


:lol:

[Autumn Red]

Plato does advocate a society that takes responsibility for the general well being of everyone, but this doesn't equate Communism. Sure, some of Plato's ideas are shared with the Left in general, but it's ridiculous to say that because he was against love he invented Communism. :\

It's like saying because I'm against hate I invented Fascism. :lol:

[Q]

Your professor sounds like an idiot. Good luck passing her tests.

[NecroCommie]

This makes me lose all faith in scientists.

[Dimentio]

So I'm taking a course on classical political theory, which covers the ancient Greeks all the way to Machiavelli, and my professor, a 30-something newly-minted doctor, starts telling us about Plato and his Republic. She then said the following gem, paraphrased:

"In his Republic, Plato even outlaws love. This means Plato came up with the first communist society. Marx schmarx, Plato thought of it first."

You heard it here first, guys: communists are anti-love, and our ideological father is not Marx, but Plato.

Is it wrong for me to question her credentials?

What the fuck.

But it wouldn't surprise me. My Economic History teacher claimed that Marx and Engels supported imperialism and that Lenin did it too.

[Rusty Shackleford]

no, hum*nity's very existence invented communism.

[Widerstand]

This is the reason why I stay away from both politics and philosophy courses...

[Queercommie Girl]

Yes Plato did "invent" communism, but so did Confucius. What's your point?

Confucius actually explicitly said in one of the classical texts of Confucianism, The Book of Rites:

"When the Great Way prevails, all-under-heaven will belong to all people. Virtuous and capable people will be elected into office, and everyone will be considerate and kind to one another. Everyone respects other people's parents as their own parents, everyone loves other people's children as their own children. There is care for every old person, meaningful employment for every adult, and good education for every child. There is a means of support for the widows, the widowers, the disabled, and for all who find themselves alone in the world. Every man and woman has an appropriate and positive role to play in society. A sense of sharing displaces the effects of selfishness and materialism. A devotion to public duty leaves no room for idleness. Intrigues and conniving for ill gain are unknown. Villains such as thieves and robbers do not exist. The door to every home need never be locked and bolted by day or night. These are the characteristics of an ideal world, the Great Commonwealth State."

-- The Book of Rites, Book IX

Don't be Eurocentric. In fact, Confucius's idea here is objectively better than Plato's as Plato was an idealist but Confucius's idea here is a historical and materialist one. There is also no mention of a ruling elite of philosopher-kings imposing their wills on the public, rather, virtuous people are elected by the people.

In the most basic and most general sense, socialist ideas have existed as long as humanity itself. But it was only with Marx and Engels that socialism was elaborately formulated in a scientific sense.

As Trotsky once said: I believe that socialism represents the aspirations of the human race towards equality, justice, freedom and happiness. No-one has the right to judge that it is utopian, no-one can declare its death, because such aspirations have existed throughout all of human history, and they will certainly continue into the future.

As for Confucius's description here, Chinese Marxists generally believe that it was a "romantic memory" of the distant primitive communist era in China's distant past, very distant even in Confucius's time 2500 years ago. But actually modern anthropological discoveries about primitive communist peoples such as the native Americans, as clearly recorded in Engels' great classic The Origins of the Family, do fit with Confucius's utopian description quite well. There was no family (hence everyone treats other people's parents and children as their own), no private property (hence little selfishness and materialism and everyone works for the public good) and general democracy (hence virtuous people are elected into public office).

Confucius, despite all his talents and knowledge, could only dream about this kind of world, as he lived in the violent and brutally oppressive era of the Spring and Autumn Period 2500 years ago. But for socialists today, the material conditions are sufficient for us to realise this kind of world in practice.

There is nothing wrong with studying the likes of Plato and Confucius, as Lenin said, socialists should learn from the best elements of feudal and capitalist civilisation. But we must study them with a clear head and the correct political consciousness.

[Raúl Duke]

So I'm taking a course on classical political theory, which covers the ancient Greeks all the way to Machiavelli, and my professor, a 30-something newly-minted doctor, starts telling us about Plato and his Republic. She then said the following gem, paraphrased:

"In his Republic, Plato even outlaws love. This means Plato came up with the first communist society. Marx schmarx, Plato thought of it first."

You heard it here first, guys: communists are anti-love, and our ideological father is not Marx, but Plato.

Is it wrong for me to question her credentials?

It's a Poli Sci course, this doesn't amaze me.

In my limited experience, they tend to know much less about Marx than history professors.


This is the reason why I stay away from both politics and philosophy courses...

I don't know much about philosophy courses to critique them, but I agree with the poli sci in most university is just rubbish.

[Queercommie Girl]

Socialists should be both "red" and "expert", not just "red". We should learn and become knowledgable in both Eastern and Western philosophy as well as bourgeois political science. Doesn't mean we have to agree with them, but socialism inherits all the positive aspects of all human civilisation.

[Das war einmal]

'Bleach is healthy. It's mostly water. And were mostly water. Therefor, we are bleach.'

[Pretty Flaco]

According to me, I'm Roman and wrote The Republic

[GPDP]

I should note this is the professor's first year teaching at my uni, and she is in fact replacing our previous political theory professor, who was a Marxist and would never have made such an idiotic statement. I should also note with the exception of my Public Administration class, which has no business being required under Political Science IMO since it has its own department and degree plan, my Pol Sci education has actually been very enlightening and fairly free of bullshit. I've heard plenty of horror stories about Pol Sci here in the states, but for the most part I've managed to avoid them.

And again, I must note she emphasized the whole "outlawing love" aspect of Plato's Republic as indicative of a communist society, not any of the general welfare aspects of it, which had she brought up, I probably would've still disagreed about that somehow making Plato the first "communist" but at least it would've been somewhat understandable. To me, she was clearly talking about communism in a "the whole society is bleak and run by a totalitarian dictator" sense, which again, even if she genuinely believed that is what communism would actually be, in terms of political theory, it has never been advocated by Marx, and as learned as she appears to be in political theory, she should know that. I am in fact going to talk to her about it, perhaps in an e-mail, because it fascinates me that a person that has attained a doctorate would say something so ridiculous.

I definitely am starting to miss the previous theory professor, though, as he was a big believer in teaching political theory through a materialist framework (that is, he would outline the material conditions for the societies under which the great thinkers developed their thoughts, and thus helped us better understand where they're coming from), whereas it appears this new professor is hopelessly idealistic, even outright stating she genuinely believes ideas are what shape the world.

[Red Commissar]

This is actually not uncommon of a sentiment nowadays. An awfully schematic and surface look at The Republic will have some people think the communal lifestyle of the Guardians somehow equal to communism (lawls all equal111!1).

First problem with this is that Plato's Republic is not really "communist". He opens it up pretty much on the basis of a harmonious society that is based on a balance of three forces in society. The communal aspect only seems to be limited to the Guardians, mainly the ruler segment of them (The Philosopher-Kings).

Another, often overlooked element of the Republic, is that Plato's whole reason for creating this arrangement was for him to find justice in the individual. He reasoned that justice in the individual could only be found when justice in society was found. The three segments of the Republic's society (the commoners, soldiers, and rulers) in harmony corresponded to three factors of the human soul that had to be in balance.

Though unfortunately this is a concept that has attempted to be played out too much. Karl Popper I know tried to blame Plato's thoughts in Republic for all the bad "totalitarian" regimes, chiefly Hitler and Stalin. Some odd analysis where he claims that Plato's thinking led to Hegel, who led to Marx who somehow led to both Stalin and Hitler.

[Barry Lyndon]

Kind of odd since Plato went on and on about the material world being 'shadows in a cave', ie an illusory reflection of the 'real' ideal world or some convoluted shit, the exact OPPOSITE of historical materialism.

As for love, look at the Che Guevara quote in my signature. I guess Che didn't get the memo that communists are against love. :laugh:

[Chambered Word]

I hope the OP is trolling.

[Pavlov's House Party]

well political sciences teachers are usually full of shit. i took a poli sci class and the teacher insisted that countries like sweden were the kind of socialism marx talked about. he'd even shrug off the fact that sweden has a monarchy just because it suited his political definitions. next to the economics department, political sciences is filled with the more speculative and the teacher's bias bullshit than anything else.

[GPDP]

In other news, I'm also taking a Social and Political Philosophy class, and so far it looks like it's gonna be awesome. We're gonna be talking about Liberalism (through Kant), Anarchism, Communism (specifically Marxism), and what he calls Despotism (through Machiavelli).

Unlike my political theory professor up there, this guy actually knows what he's talking about, and has encouraged us to let go of our preconceptions about all these terms and look at what the people theorizing about these subjects actually have to say. He is also having us write two papers comparing these views (Liberalism versus Anarchism, and Communism versus Despotism), and in each one, choose our preferred ideology. The last paper would then compare the two remaining ideologies, and have us choose the "best" one.

Which means I'm gonna end up writing a paper in which I bash Anarchism from a Marxist perspective. :D:D:D Just kidding, guys. I'll at least have you win over the liberals.

[Widerstand]

Which means I'm gonna end up writing a paper in which I bash Anarchism from a Marxist perspective. :D:D:D Just kidding, guys. I'll at least have you win over the liberals.

Be a Sectarianist today. Because it doesn't matter what everyone else believes, they are wrong.

[GPDP]

Be a Sectarianist today. Because it doesn't matter what everyone else believes, they are wrong.

Hey, I'll be fair lol I just like the idea of getting a grade for being sectarian :D.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Tell her she's the most intelligent person you've ever heard. Then make whoopee.

[GPDP]

This just in: Sparta was communist.

I'm beginning to think she doesn't take communism seriously as a political ideology at all other than as an insult toward societies she finds particularly brutal or authoritarian.

[Q]

This just in: Sparta was communist.
As far as my understanding goes of Sparta I think it best summarises as some form of "war-communism" as it was basically a huge barrack.

But I could be very wrong.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

According to me, I'm Roman and wrote The Republic

Yeah, but Rosemary's Baby was better.

[GPDP]

"While you're reading the Republic, you'll see Plato is advocating a very authoritarian state. Think Orwell. Think Marx."

facepalm.jpg

[ContrarianLemming]

so, did u email her?

[GPDP]

Nah, I forgot about it for a while and then decided it wasn't worth it. I quite like her, actually. She just has a really shitty definition of communism.

[ContrarianLemming]

Nah, I forgot about it for a while and then decided it wasn't worth it. I quite like her, actually. She just has a really shitty definition of communism.

ask her, in class, to define communism, then smugly correct her.

[Apoi_Viitor]

"While you're reading the Republic, you'll see Plato is advocating a very authoritarian state. Think Orwell. Think Marx."

facepalm.jpg


Your should ask your Professor why Orwell joined the Party of Marxist Unity in Spain. Maybe it was because of his anti-authoritarianism?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy.

Plato FTW.

In all seriousness though, I'm pretty sure Tiqqun invented communism.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Report back when you have her n00dz

[free marijuana]

Bugger telling her what communism is at this stage. Sleep with her, and then as you are cuddling after sex mention that you disagree with her definition of communism, and then go on to correct her misconceptions.

After Sex(TM): The best time to convince people that they are incorrect about communism.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

After Sex(TM): The best time to convince people that they are incorrect about communism.
Well then, I've got a lot of work to do.

[ContrarianLemming]

Bugger telling her what communism is at this stage. Sleep with her, and then as you are cuddling after sex mention that you disagree with her definition of communism, and then go on to correct her misconceptions.

After Sex(TM): The best time to convince people that they are incorrect about communism.

comrade, you've gotten off to a good start

[Amphictyonis]

So I'm taking a course on classical political theory, which covers the ancient Greeks all the way to Machiavelli, and my professor, a 30-something newly-minted doctor, starts telling us about Plato and his Republic. She then said the following gem, paraphrased:

"In his Republic, Plato even outlaws love. This means Plato came up with the first communist society. Marx schmarx, Plato thought of it first."

You heard it here first, guys: communists are anti-love, and our ideological father is not Marx, but Plato.

Is it wrong for me to question her credentials?

She's probably referring to Plato's account of the utopia Atlantis. Not sure what she means about outlawing love?