Tony Benn puts BBC in their place

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E21MdXe3BOQ&feature=player_embedded

[Land Of Upright Men]

fuck tony ben and his social democrat anti communist bullshit.

I call for a Fatwa on Tony.

[Crimson Commissar]

fuck tony ben and his social democrat anti communist bullshit.

I call for a Fatwa on Tony.
I wouldn't go as far as calling him a social democrat... He's definitely a socialist, but probably not a communist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

fuck tony ben and his social democrat anti communist bullshit.

I call for a Fatwa on Tony.

I would say it's irrelevant whether he's a socialist, social democrat, or anti-communist. He's using his voice to help those suffering on the Gaza Strip. And if you're going to denounce it purely because he's not of your same thinking standards, then you're the one being counterproductive, not him.

[ComradeOm]

I would say it's irrelevant whether he's a socialist, social democrat, or anti-communist. He's using his voice to help those suffering on the Gaza Strip. And if you're going to denounce it purely because he's not of your same thinking standards, then you're the one being counterproductive, not him.Exactly. A knee jerk call for a fatwa is not the most productive of responses. This isn't about Tony Benn or his politics but the stand (if you want to be melodramatic) that he made in publicising the plight of Palestinians

[welshexile1963]

fuck tony ben and his social democrat anti communist bullshit.

I call for a Fatwa on Tony.

I bet Tony Benn has done more for the working class that you EVER will.

[ed miliband]

I bet Tony Benn has done more for the working class that you EVER will.


Tony Benn's attitude is that the working class cannot liberate themselves but need benevolent, educated men like himself to do so. The fact he still thinks that socialism can be achieved solely through parliamentary means says it all.

[Queercommie Girl]

fuck tony ben and his social democrat anti communist bullshit.

I call for a Fatwa on Tony.

And a "fatwa" is really communist, I guess?

Don't be like Stalin, who refused to co-operate with what he called the "social-fascist" German SPD against the Nazis.

[Queercommie Girl]

Tony Benn's attitude is that the working class cannot liberate themselves but need benevolent, educated men like himself to do so. The fact he still thinks that socialism can be achieved solely through parliamentary means says it all.

That is true, but I'd rather have Benn than Hamas when it comes to the issue in Palestine. The fundamental problem of the latter is that they would rather unite with Palestinian bourgeois than the Israeli working class. At least Tony Benn has more clarity when it comes to the class line.

Although Benn is a reformist himself, he isn't opposed to revolution. He used to work with Trotskyist organisations like the CWI, when the latter was still a part of the Labour Party.

Reformism only becomes reactionary when it opposes revolution, otherwise I think they should be allowed to freely have their say.

National liberation struggles, on the other hand, do become reactionary when they fail to recognise the need for internationalist working class unity.

[Land Of Upright Men]

ctually Ben and Michael Foot and all them old labour pricks are the reason why the Bourgois system can pacify public anger and turn it in meaniness reform, rather than lasting revolution.

They also denounce the IRA INLA, and have a British chauvanist line, fuck them, and fuck any so called marxist who support such eurocentric, oh so educated geniuses who will liberate our poor class by glorious reforms.

Get fucking real.

[Land Of Upright Men]

I bet Tony Benn has done more for the working class that you EVER will.

because elitist politicians are so much better than me, a working class person, nice to know where your head is at you fucking democrat

[ed miliband]

Although Benn is a reformist himself, he isn't opposed to revolution. He used to work with Trotskyist organisations like the CWI, when the latter was still a part of the Labour Party.

Reformism only becomes reactionary when it opposes revolution, otherwise I think they should be allowed to freely have their say.

National liberation struggles, on the other hand, do become reactionary when they fail to recognise the need for internationalist working class unity.

I hear from those who attended Marxism 2010 that Benn mocked the idea of revolution and insisted that reform was the only way to socialism.

Then there is this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6908149.ece

For all my sins I cannot say I'm an authority on national liberation struggles. I do however know that politicians like Benn are not my comrades.

[Land Of Upright Men]

some prick just neg repped me, you know, getting red squares off social democrats really cuts deep, i do not know how i will survive comradeom, you bellend

[ComradeOm]

some prick just neg repped me, you know, getting red squares off social democrats really cuts deep, i do not know how i will survive comradeom, you bellendI'm sure you'll manage somehow. Probably by stomping angrily around some forum crying about all the existence of social democrats. What I would suggest though is that you take this hissy fit somewhere else, rather than cluttering up a thread that is (amazingly enough) not about you, how you are "a working class person" (well done), or fatwas on reformists

What with this being a thread about Tony Benn calling attention to the plight of the Gaza Strip. Note that, as I said, its not about Tony Benn's politics and its not about you

[Queercommie Girl]

I hear from those who attended Marxism 2010 that Benn mocked the idea of revolution and insisted that reform was the only way to socialism.

Then there is this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6908149.ece

For all my sins I cannot say I'm an authority on national liberation struggles. I do however know that politicians like Benn are not my comrades.

Well, he might have changed some of his views in his old age and moved to the right.

People do tend to become less radical when they become older.

National liberation struggles of course are intrinsically partially progressive. But frankly the national liberation struggles in parts of the Islamic world do become somewhat problematic since they are rooted in religious fundamentalism and hatred against countries like Israel. Terrorist groups like Hamas are not directly hurting the Israelis capitalists in power, but ordinary working people of Israel.

When national liberation struggles become such that the working class of other countries (not the capitalists) are directly harmed, they really do become a problem.

Frankly, I think if you think organisations like the Hamas are your "comrades", then it is a bigger problem than if you think reformists like Benn are your comrades. For one thing, do you think genuine atheistic Marxist organisations would even be allowed to operate if people like the Hamas get into power? Look at Iran today for instance. At least before it became neo-liberal and purged all the Trotskyists from the party, the reformist British Labour Party did give the Trotskyists a political platform. Dave Nellist of the CWI used to be a Labour Party MP.

[Land Of Upright Men]

go rim george galloway you reformist pig

[Land Of Upright Men]

no one said they support hamas you strawman prick

also, if british politicians had not said, when does the dog get to decide who sit at the table, and given palestine to the zionists, there would be no hamas.

nearly all jewish leaders, were against the setting up of the jewish state, and most recognise israel, as the largest cause of anti semitism to date.

So take your strawman ohhh hamas arguement and go to starbucks and play cofee shop revolutionary with Tony and the labour massive

[Jolly Red Giant]

ctually Ben and Michael Foot and all them old labour pricks are the reason why the Bourgois system can pacify public anger and turn it in meaniness reform, rather than lasting revolution.

They also denounce the IRA INLA, and have a British chauvanist line, fuck them, and fuck any so called marxist who support such eurocentric, oh so educated geniuses who will liberate our poor class by glorious reforms.

Get fucking real.
Benn is a left reformist but he has stood by his left-wing politics when all around him were scampering to the right, and he should be given credit for it. There are many things I disagree with Benn on - but you really should know what you are talking about before you start throwing around baseless allegations. Tony Benn did not adopt a British chauvanist line - if anything he was a supporter of republicanism. He was an active in the Troops Out movement and has consistantly adopted a pro-withdrawl of the troops position.


Dave Nellist of the CWI used to be a Labour Party MP.
Along with Terry Fields and Pat Wall.

[Queercommie Girl]

no one said they support hamas you strawman prick


I wasn't even responding to you.

All you seem to know how to do is to throw around insults.

I don't know what you actually gain by insulting every genuine reformist out there. As the "transitional programme" states, genuine socialists should support every genuine effort at reform within the current system, while clearly pointing out that these are not sufficient in themselves without a successful revolution.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I have respect for people like Tony Benn as in many cases, they echo some of our arguments in front of large audiences (such as in the video posted).

Reformism isn't the answer, we know this, but anyone who goes onto a national, publicly-owned television station and makes the point of giving the number for the Gaza aid appeal out for many to see (who would otherwise not know of it), is a comrade in my eyes.

[Sam_b]

Do you usually post video links that are about a year old?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Do you usually post video links that are about a year old?

Are you always a ***** on things that are a bit irrelevant?

And why does it matter if it's a year old? The message itself & situation can have greater importance than when it was done, if shown to have relevancy within today's situations.

[28350]

FWIW a fatwā is a legal ruling, not a death sentence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatw%C4%81

[Sam_b]

Are you always a ***** on things that are a bit irrelevant?

It's totally irrelevant.


And why does it matter if it's a year old?

Because it clogs up the forum. Seriously I thought this was a necro. It's about as pointless as putting your political opinions up on a video stream thinking people will watch OH WAIT

[ComradeOm]

Because it clogs up the forumShocking to think that its forcing threads like this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/recent-expulsions-iso-t139791/index.html) or this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/raan-anti-leninist-t140713/index.html) onto the second page :rolleyes:

[The Vegan Marxist]

It's totally irrelevant.



Because it clogs up the forum. Seriously I thought this was a necro. It's about as pointless as putting your political opinions up on a video stream thinking people will watch OH WAIT

Yeah because history is completely irrelevant to today's situations. Spoken like a true Communist. :rolleyes:

[Sam_b]

Yeah because history is completely irrelevant to today's situations

Nobody said that. Tony Benn being on BBC news, a specific instance on the Gaza crisis from last year, is pretty irrelevant to what is happening in Gaza right now.

I don't have any Cuba-style guerilla combat shirts to wear while typing so i'm obviously not as big on history as you are, blatantly.


Spoken like a true Communist
I'm sorry I don't slave over your idols.

"Yeah, because what this world needs is another Khrushchev "

[The Vegan Marxist]

Nobody said that. Tony Benn being on BBC news, a specific instance on the Gaza crisis from last year, is pretty irrelevant to what is happening in Gaza right now.

I don't have any Cuba-style guerilla combat shirts to wear while typing so i'm obviously not as big on history as you are, blatantly.


I'm sorry I don't slave over your idols.

"Yeah, because what this world needs is another Khrushchev "

I would say it's not irrelevant in what's going on, because BBC is still playing its same dirty tricks to help support Israel over those who are suffering in the Gaza Strip.

And who says I slave over idols? I analyze those historical figures & determine their significance to what we're facing today. Each & every one of us do this.

And wow, you used a quote where I was denouncing Khrushchev for his revisionist ways, leading the Soviet Union on a road back to capitalist restoration. :thumbup1:

[Sam_b]

And who says I slave over idols?

I do.


And wow, you used a quote where I was denouncing Khrushchev for his revisionist ways

After somebody denounced Stalin in the thread. The end of Stalinism must automatically equate Khruschevite revisionism, right? I mean, thats really dialectical and all. Such linear thinking means that I don't think you're able to analyse much of anything.

But anyway i'm going to stop bumping this thread.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

because elitist politicians are so much better than me, a working class person, nice to know where your head is at you fucking democrat

What part of Tony Benn is elitist?

He has been a government minister at the highest levels. He is now 80+ years old. Do you see him writing memoirs, wading in on 'New Labour' electoral issues or collecting a nice salary for sitting on the Daily Politics sofa?

No. He is still committed to his version of Democratic Socialism.

Personally, I find it insulting that you have made such comments about a man who has shown over nearly a century that he is a wholly committed Socialist.

Simply because he is not a Leninist you feel like you are morally correct to call for an extra-judicial, religious-induced execution upon an octagenarian.

Shame on you. Absolute shame on you!

[Die Neue Zeit]

That is true, but I'd rather have Benn than Hamas when it comes to the issue in Palestine. The fundamental problem of the latter is that they would rather unite with Palestinian bourgeois than the Israeli working class. At least Tony Benn has more clarity when it comes to the class line.

Although Benn is a reformist himself, he isn't opposed to revolution. He used to work with Trotskyist organisations like the CWI, when the latter was still a part of the Labour Party.

Reformism only becomes reactionary when it opposes revolution, otherwise I think they should be allowed to freely have their say.

National liberation struggles, on the other hand, do become reactionary when they fail to recognise the need for internationalist working class unity.

You should be more specific about reformism. I would apply your statement only to left-reformism.

[freepalestine]

..changed some of his views in his old age and moved to the right. People do tend to become less radical when they become older..frankly the national liberation struggles in parts of the Islamic world do become somewhat problematic..rooted in religious fundamentalism and hatred against countries like Israel. Terrorists like Hamas are not..are you sure your cwi group arent still in the labor party?and yes they like hamas arent political allies of the palestinian left either.

[Die Rote Fahne]

He's not a marxist.

He's a utopian socialist.

He's a voice of reason, and a voice of social change. Better him getting airtime than nobody.

[Queercommie Girl]

are you sure your cwi group arent still in the labor party?and yes they like hamas arent political allies of the palestinian left either.

I'm not a CWI member.

CWI was purged from the Labour Party as the party became neo-liberalised.

[Blackscare]

no one said they support hamas you strawman prick

also, if british politicians had not said, when does the dog get to decide who sit at the table, and given palestine to the zionists, there would be no hamas.

nearly all jewish leaders, were against the setting up of the jewish state, and most recognise israel, as the largest cause of anti semitism to date.

So take your strawman ohhh hamas arguement and go to starbucks and play cofee shop revolutionary with Tony and the labour massive

Hey mister 20-post-in-ima-throw-a-big-fucking-shitfit, chill the fuck out.


If you can't handle a little discussion without totally fucking flipping your shit, I don't know how you even use the internet. Also, telling people to "go rim so-and-so" is just going to get you infracted for homophobia or some shit.


Really, you're just making yourself look like a massive tool.

[Volcanicity]

I dont agree with a lot that Tony Benn says,but the fact that he goes on TV and tours the country giving talks and readings from a Socialist perspective,he should be given respect.He is a voice for the left and people see and hear him who wouldnt normally listen to any politician.And for someone to go onto the BBC and support the Palestinians deserves to be applauded.

[Queercommie Girl]

You should be more specific about reformism. I would apply your statement only to left-reformism.

Ok, I agree.

My point is that it is serious mistake to see genuine left reformism as a political enemy like Stalin did when he refused to unite with the German Social Democrats against the Nazis and accused them for being "social-fascists".

[freepalestine]

I'm not a CWI member. CWI was purged from the Labour Party as the party became neo-liberalised.apologies.when did cwi leave the british labour party.i take they arent the 'militant' group.?

[Queercommie Girl]

apologies.when did cwi leave the british labour party.i take they arent the 'militant' group.?

No apologies required.

The CWI didn't leave the Labour Party, it was purged from the Labour Party in the late 1980s as the Labour Party essentially moved to the right.

In the past, the old Labour Party, despite obvious limitations, did provide some kind of political platform for revolutionary and left reformist socialists of all stripes. Now the Labour Party is just another neo-liberal capitalist party not so different from the Conservatives.

So you see, in the "democratic" Western world, purges do happen, just not as explicitly violent as in the Stalinist USSR.

The CWI is indeed the direct continuation of the Militant Tendency of the Labour Party. In recent years it has changed its official name to "CWI" (Committee For a Worker's International).

[bricolage]

And why does it matter if it's a year old? The message itself & situation can have greater importance than when it was done, if shown to have relevancy within today's situations.
Considering the DEC appeal doesn't even exist anymore I'm not really sure what relevance it has.

[welshexile1963]

What part of Tony Benn is elitist?

He has been a government minister at the highest levels. He is now 80+ years old. Do you see him writing memoirs, wading in on 'New Labour' electoral issues or collecting a nice salary for sitting on the Daily Politics sofa?

No. He is still committed to his version of Democratic Socialism.

Personally, I find it insulting that you have made such comments about a man who has shown over nearly a century that he is a wholly committed Socialist.

Simply because he is not a Leninist you feel like you are morally correct to call for an extra-judicial, religious-induced execution upon an octagenarian.

Shame on you. Absolute shame on you!

Hear Hear well said! :thumbup1:

[welshexile1963]

He's not a marxist.

He's a utopian socialist.

He's a voice of reason, and a voice of social change. Better him getting airtime than nobody.

Nice one :thumbup1:

[Svoboda]

E21MdXe3BOQ
From my watching of the BBC it certainty tries to be impartial in the Arab-Israeli conflict but it seems to me that they are more on the side of the Palestinians, this seemed fairly clear to me by the recent Flotilla incident.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

They are more on the side of Israel, actually. The flotilla incident was too big to ignore, though, and any news outlet that claims true impartiality that ignored that incident would lose whatever credibility they hold.

History tells us that the BBC have leaned considerably in favour of Israel though, the clip posted is a small example of that.