Fascism and European Paganism

[Autumn Red]

To what extent did the various Fascist movements in the 20th century make use of European Paganism to gain support? I know that there were some really fucked up things that Hitler did in connection to German runes but I don't know any specific details.

Providing book titles = winget

[Kayser_Soso]

To what extent did the various Fascist movements in the 20th century make use of European Paganism to gain support? I know that there were some really fucked up things that Hitler did in connection to German runes but I don't know any specific details.

Providing book titles = winget

The extent to which occultism affected the Third Reich is often exaggerated by conspiracy theorists. Hitler and many other important Reich officials held more or less Christian beliefs, though many showed interest in Germanic history and folklore. The runes were usually used in insignia(most obvious being that of the SS).

Now post-war it was a different story. Many post-war neo-Nazis felt that in some way, Christianity had weakened them. They could not resolve the connection between Christ and the Jews, and with the breakdown of Christian traditions in the middle of the 20th century(a natural effect of capitalism), they sought to adapt by embracing more "Aryan" religions such as Odinism or Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism(you should take the Aryan-ness of all this with a shaker of salt).

[Dimentio]

To what extent did the various Fascist movements in the 20th century make use of European Paganism to gain support? I know that there were some really fucked up things that Hitler did in connection to German runes but I don't know any specific details.

Providing book titles = winget

The fascists in Italy were originally about equally split between a religious right and a militant atheist right. Mussolini himself was an atheist, but supported the Vatican out of opportunistic reasons.

The fascists in most other European countries, especially Spain and Romania, were fanatically religious in the christian sense.

In Germany, the nazis had a sub-group (strong within the SS) which heavily borrowed ideals and myths from Nordic mythology, but that was hardly utilised in order to gain support. Most Germans were christian, so Hitler in general used the christian churches to muster support.

Himmler's support of Nordic mythology wasn't because of opportunistic reasons but because he sincerely believed in some kind of deformed Asatrú religion, sending expeditions to all corners of the world.

Modern esoteric nazis have developed that further, and have combined Ufology with Hinduism. They believe that Hitler is an incarnation of Vishnu(!) who is living in a secret Antarctic base(!!) under the protection of the Vril (!!!) who are a race of extraterrestial Angels (!!!!!) who originally were the ancestors of the Aryan Race (!!!!!!!!!).

If you are interested in such things, go to savitridevi.org

There is also an entire music genre built around that ideology - Neofolk.

[ComradeOm]

To what extent did the various Fascist movements in the 20th century make use of European Paganism to gain support?For support? Not at all. Various Nazis may have dabbled in the occult but it was never part of the NSDAP's (or any other fascist party's) programme or played any meaningful role in their policies

[Dimentio]

For support? Not at all. Various Nazis may have dabbled in the occult but it was never part of the NSDAP's (or any other fascist party's) programme or played any meaningful role in their policies

In fact, it did play a meaningful role in their ideology. Himmler created an entire archeology team of the SS whose sole purpose was to send expeditions to "prove" the superiority of the Aryan race. Karl Maria Willigut (probably one of the least sane individuals of the 20th century) was also quite influential.

[ComradeOm]

In fact, it did play a meaningful role in their ideology. Himmler created an entire archeology team of the SS whose sole purpose was to send expeditions to "prove" the superiority of the Aryan raceYou consider social darwinism and 'racialism' to be pagan ideals?

[Volcanicity]

Himmler purchased Wewelsburg Castle under the influence of the far from sane Willigut,and intended it as a sort of modern day Camelot.With the SS being the knights of the round table.

[Autumn Red]

Thanks for the posts. So I am to assume that Neo-Nazis have made more use of European Paganism/Indo-European religions than the third reich did?

[Volcanicity]

Thanks for the posts. So I am to assume that Neo-Nazis have made more use of European Paganism/Indo-European religions than the third reich did?
Yes it was mostly individual Nazis who were obsessed with it,from what i gather the majority thought it was crazy.

[Comrade Gwydion]

I was going to make a thread about this myself. Being a pagan myself, it irritates the fuck out of me that white-nationalists these days use the pagan imagery, though I can hardly phantom how they'd combine actual pagan beliefs with their ideology....

[Bud Struggle]

In fact, it did play a meaningful role in their ideology. Himmler created an entire archeology team of the SS whose sole purpose was to send expeditions to "prove" the superiority of the Aryan race. Karl Maria Willigut (probably one of the least sane individuals of the 20th century) was also quite influential.

Raders of the Lost Ark. :)

[Agnapostate]

The anti-Judaic themes professed by Hitler were motivated by generations of earlier Christian belief that Jews were duplicitous and manipulative extortionists because of their non-adherence to Christian doctrines on usury.

[Autumn Red]

The anti-Judaic themes professed by Hitler were motivated by generations of earlier Christian belief that Jews were duplicitous and manipulative extortionists because of their non-adherence to Christian doctrines on usury.
Are you referring to Martin Luther here? He was quite influential in moving Germany from Catholicism to Protestantism. (Although Austria and Bavaria are for the most part Catholic.)

Which makes me wonder, why would Catholic Austria so easily allow itself to be combined with protestant majority Germany?

[Dimentio]

You consider social darwinism and 'racialism' to be pagan ideals?

Nope, but Himmler created an entire SS science unit named Ahnerhebe or something like that, which had the only purpose to find ancient "Aryan" artefacts, claim them and bring them to Germany. The stole some runestones in Sweden in 1935.

Their most ambitious project was several expeditions to Tibet. They had a budget of millions of Reichmark.

[Dimentio]

I was going to make a thread about this myself. Being a pagan myself, it irritates the fuck out of me that white-nationalists these days use the pagan imagery, though I can hardly phantom how they'd combine actual pagan beliefs with their ideology....

Ancient Norse paganism was obviously not paganism, but it should not be interpreted as a progressive religion for that. It assumed that the serfs, the free men and the nobility were from the beginning three different races who were the result of the mating of the first woman with the God Heimdall.

Also, their version of paradise was a giant eternal battlefield.

[Agnapostate]

Are you referring to Martin Luther here? He was quite influential in moving Germany from Catholicism to Protestantism. (Although Austria and Bavaria are for the most part Catholic.)

It was a facet of his litany of rantings about Jews' failure to convert to Christianity, but it existed before he did. Quoting from Muller's Capitalism and the Jews:


Jews were not subject to the prohibitions of canon law, and were condemned in any case to perpetual damnation because of their repudiation of Christ. Pope Nicholas V, for example, preferred that “this people should perpetrate usury than that Christians should engage in it with one another."

Thus began an association of moneymaking with the Jews, an association that would further taint attitudes toward commerce among Christians, and that, as we shall see, would continue to cast its shadow into the Age of Enlightenment and beyond. In Passion plays, the negotiations between Judas Iscariot and the Jewish leaders of his day were portrayed as bargaining among typical medieval Jewish money-lenders. So closely was the reviled practice of usury identified with the Jews that St. Bernard of Clairvaux, the leader of the Cistercian order, in the middle of the twelfth century referred to the taking of usury as “Jewing” (iudaizare), and chastised Christian moneylenders as “baptized Jews.”

It was perpetuated by Luther.


Which makes me wonder, why would Catholic Austria so easily allow itself to be combined with protestant majority Germany?

Did they? The Anschluss occurred in the wake of a cancelled referendum and the plebiscite intended as a post-unification approval of that action occurred during what must have been a rather intimidating and coercive presence of the Wehrmacht, with votes open and handed to officials. The vote seemed to be ridiculously skewed in one direction or the other depending on their influence, with major occupied regions and municipalities overwhelingly favoring the unification, and remote unoccupied localities overwhelmingly opposed. There was essentially consensus in one direction or the other.

[Obzervi]

The anti-Judaic themes professed by Hitler were motivated by generations of earlier Christian belief that Jews were duplicitous and manipulative extortionists because of their non-adherence to Christian doctrines on usury.

Are you fucking kidding me? Oh yes, those evil jewish bankers! give me a fucking break. The reason why Jews were oppressed had nothing to do with usury, but because they appeared different from the majority and those in power focused on that difference in order to control the masses and to prevent them from uniting against them.

[Kayser_Soso]

Are you fucking kidding me? Oh yes, those evil jewish bankers! give me a fucking break. The reason why Jews were oppressed had nothing to do with usury, but because they appeared different from the majority and those in power focused on that difference in order to control the masses and to prevent them from uniting against them.

Not true. If this were the case the Nazis could have found other groups of people to use as a scapegoat. European anti-Semitism is indeed the product of old Christian doctrine; German Protestantism and anti-Semitism go hand in hand. One accusation Luther had against the Catholic church was that by forbidding Christians the right to partake in usury, they were allowing Jews to get rich. Of course by Hitler's time, the majority of bankers were no longer Jewish(the Protestant reformation and bourgeois revolution are linked), but then people didn't matter because a cultural myth lives on.

Jews were also seen to be behind Communism, as anti-Semites saw Marx as a Jew and without even reading his work they call his writings a Jewish plot of some kind. It is true that many Jews joined Communist and socialist parties but when we consider the conditions in which they lived- why WOULDN'T they join a party or movement that promised to treat them as equals instead of second-class citizens?

[Kayser_Soso]

Thanks for the posts. So I am to assume that Neo-Nazis have made more use of European Paganism/Indo-European religions than the third reich did?

The Ahnenerbe was the department responsible for searching for a lost "Indo-Germanic" past in places like Tibet and Afghanistan. Their interest in religion had little to do with the occult(though this history served as the basis for the Indiana Jones story) but rather history, which they would twist into a ridiculous narrative where blonde-haired blue-eyed people ruled India or Tibet.

As I said, post-war neo-Nazis tended to develop on this pagan theme, largely out of butt-hurt, believing that Christianity betrayed them. One of these esoteric Nazis was Hitler-worshipper(and I seriously mean worshipper) Savitri Devi Mukherji, a convert to Hinduism who believed Hitler to be nearly an incarnation of Vishnu- and avatar. Christianity on the surface preached about compassion and forgiveness, and these "weak" values seemed to class with Hitler's mad survival of the fittest rhetoric(in the final days of the war he spoke on several occasions about how the German people had proven themselves too weak and thus deserved extermination).

A lot of hard-core Christians in those decades were also emphatic supporters of the government, whether it be democrat or republican. Obviously people who hated the government couldn't get along with flag-waving patriots.

These are just a few key reasons why European Paganism emerged. In Europe the story is slightly different but comes from the same roots. According to their right philosophers, Christianity is inherently Jewish, and comes from "a desert". They believe this is inappropriate cultural "borrowing" or something to this effect. Of course don't tell them how much the culture of Egypt or the Islamic world has positively affected Europe.

[Dimentio]

The Ahnenerbe was the department responsible for searching for a lost "Indo-Germanic" past in places like Tibet and Afghanistan. Their interest in religion had little to do with the occult(though this history served as the basis for the Indiana Jones story) but rather history, which they would twist into a ridiculous narrative where blonde-haired blue-eyed people ruled India or Tibet.

As I said, post-war neo-Nazis tended to develop on this pagan theme, largely out of butt-hurt, believing that Christianity betrayed them. One of these esoteric Nazis was Hitler-worshipper(and I seriously mean worshipper) Savitri Devi Mukherji, a convert to Hinduism who believed Hitler to be nearly an incarnation of Vishnu- and avatar. Christianity on the surface preached about compassion and forgiveness, and these "weak" values seemed to class with Hitler's mad survival of the fittest rhetoric(in the final days of the war he spoke on several occasions about how the German people had proven themselves too weak and thus deserved extermination).

A lot of hard-core Christians in those decades were also emphatic supporters of the government, whether it be democrat or republican. Obviously people who hated the government couldn't get along with flag-waving patriots.

These are just a few key reasons why European Paganism emerged. In Europe the story is slightly different but comes from the same roots. According to their right philosophers, Christianity is inherently Jewish, and comes from "a desert". They believe this is inappropriate cultural "borrowing" or something to this effect. Of course don't tell them how much the culture of Egypt or the Islamic world has positively affected Europe.

One popular theme amongst nazis is to claim that the eastern high cultures - Egypt, Persia, Babylonia, Sumeria, India - in reality were ruled by an "Aryan" upper class. This theory originated in the work of an English doctor in the 18th century, a doctor who - ironically speaking - actually tried to fight against Anti-Indian racism in the British colonies by pointing out that the Englishman and the Indian were "brothers" because they shared the same language group.

Really, most nationalisms in western Europe tried to claim aryanism for themselves in particular. Was a French nationalist "scientist" in the 1880's who claimed that the Celts had been the purest "Aryan" race, and that the Germans were really related to the Fenno-Ugric peoples and not real "Aryans".

[Kayser_Soso]

One popular theme amongst nazis is to claim that the eastern high cultures - Egypt, Persia, Babylonia, Sumeria, India - in reality were ruled by an "Aryan" upper class. This theory originated in the work of an English doctor in the 18th century, a doctor who - ironically speaking - actually tried to fight against Anti-Indian racism in the British colonies by pointing out that the Englishman and the Indian were "brothers" because they shared the same language group.

Really, most nationalisms in western Europe tried to claim aryanism for themselves in particular. Was a French nationalist "scientist" in the 1880's who claimed that the Celts had been the purest "Aryan" race, and that the Germans were really related to the Fenno-Ugric peoples and not real "Aryans".

If you want to see a hilarious modern-day example of this bullshit, look up March of the Titans, which attributes all great things, including the civilization of China and Japan, to the presence of "Nordic" whites.

[Agnapostate]

Are you fucking kidding me? Oh yes, those evil jewish bankers! give me a fucking break. The reason why Jews were oppressed had nothing to do with usury, but because they appeared different from the majority and those in power focused on that difference in order to control the masses and to prevent them from uniting against them.

Then...actually cite a counterargument or point out problems with the source I referenced instead of posting a stupid rant?


If you want to see a hilarious modern-day example of this bullshit, look up March of the Titans, which attributes all great things, including the civilization of China and Japan, to the presence of "Nordic" whites.

They do the same to Sumerians, Egyptians, and Mayans, and probably more extensively than that. Since there's no archaeological or anthropological evidence of these ludicrious claims, and they're essentially fighting a dogma-based religious war against science akin to the creationist "debate" against evolutionary biology, it's actually an implicit admission that they recognize that non-European civilizations and cultures rivalled and surpassed those in Europe. They care enough to try to claim them.

[ComradeOm]

Which makes me wonder, why would Catholic Austria so easily allow itself to be combined with protestant majority Germany?Because the power of religion as a unifying or dividing force has often been grossly overstated. Even in the depths of the European religious wars (16-17th Cs) Austria remained tightly bound to the other German states through a host of political institutions

[Kayser_Soso]

They do the same to Sumerians, Egyptians, and Mayans, and probably more extensively than that. Since there's no archaeological or anthropological evidence of these ludicrious claims, and they're essentially fighting a dogma-based religious war against science akin to the creationist "debate" against evolutionary biology, it's actually an implicit admission that they recognize that non-European civilizations and cultures rivalled and surpassed those in Europe. They care enough to try to claim them.

Yeah their methodology is hilarious too. They say "look at the figure on this pot, he looks nordic or he has light skin!!! This civilization must have been created by nordics!!" Of course plenty of ancient art has pictures of people who had blue skin, or were half-goat half man. What moron would suggest that blue people and satyrs actually existed?

[Palingenisis]

For support? Not at all. Various Nazis may have dabbled in the occult but it was never part of the NSDAP's (or any other fascist party's) programme or played any meaningful role in their policies

What about the whole use of runes? The Hitler Youth having bonfires on hills on various pagan "holydays"?

Certainly it did play a role with the SS and their various ceremonies and strange castles.

[ComradeOm]

What about the whole use of runes? The Hitler Youth having bonfires on hills on various pagan "holydays"?

Certainly it did play a role with the SS and their various ceremonies and strange castles.Yes, the Nazis certainly had a penchant for pointless symbolism. But then since when do we judge a party's programme or policies by its typeface?

The SS in particular, that incestuous group of militaristic fanatics, were receptive to this sort of occult nonsense that was washing around Europe at the time. They were not exactly representative of the German population however and these sorts of 'traditions' were kept very much 'in-house'. Colourful but ultimately entirely meaningless

[Kayser_Soso]

What about the whole use of runes? The Hitler Youth having bonfires on hills on various pagan "holydays"?

Certainly it did play a role with the SS and their various ceremonies and strange castles.

A lot of Christian holidays fell on Pagan holidays, and some Pagan traditions still existed in European societies. For example the Maypole(which represents a dick apparently) was a common holiday tradition in European societies but it has Pagan roots.

Just like today, Nazis were good at telling people what they wanted to hear. If one Nazi supporter believed that the Reich defended "Positive Christianity" and therefore their personal faith, they would infer that from propaganda. If one had interest in pre-Christian Germanic traditions, they had crap for them too.

Ironically Hitler had a few disparaging quotes about Germanic Paganism in Mein Kampf and once in Table Talk. Feel free to copy them and use them to piss of Neo-Pagan fascists and neo-Nazis. They'll love it!:

From Mein Kampf: The characteristic thing about these people [modern-day followers of the early Germanic religion] is that they rave about the old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist) blackjack.[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs#cite_note-77)

It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wodan). Our old mythology ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund. -Table Talk

[synthesis]

I wouldn't say that paganism played a direct role in Fascist parties' material rise to power. I would say that it generally played a role in the ideologies from which the Fascist parties originated.

Christianity is a universalist religion, and it is easy to see how ultra-nationalists would ascribe anti-nationalist traits to it.

For example - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has mentioned Julius Evola, a major influence on Italian fascism. From the world's most accurate encyclopedia, one might be introduced to Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity, by Nicholas Goodrich-Clarke, which noted that Evola sought to "replace Judeo-Christianity" with a "pagan imperialism" derived from the practices of ancient Rome.

Japanese fascism was also strongly derived from paganism; the emperor was seen as the offspring of a Shinto goddess. Once again, it was implicitly (sometimes explicitly) presented in contrast to the "invading" Christian religion.

The Arrow Cross Party in Hungary? Based, in part, on espousing Magyar paganism. The Metaxas Regime in Greece? Argued in favor of reviving the "heathen values of ancient Greece, specifically those of Sparta," although "the Christian values of ancient Byzantium" were also included.

The Norwegian Nasjonal Samling? Sought a revival of "Viking religion" in Norway. Read this (http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/13shnir.html) for information on the role of paganism in modern Russian fascism. Also look up the "New Life Movement" of the Chinese KMT. Even Fascist regimes that enforced Christianity often based their symbolism on the "national religions."

I don't think these are just coincidences. Fascism is simply the implementation of authoritarian nationalism; if Christianity is an opiate, then Fascism often transformed paganism into methamphetamine.

[Kayser_Soso]

I wouldn't say that paganism played a direct role in Fascist parties' material rise to power. I would say that it generally played a role in the ideologies from which the Fascist parties originated.

Christianity is a universalist religion, and it is easy to see how ultra-nationalists would ascribe anti-nationalist traits to it.

For example - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has mentioned Julius Evola, a major influence on Italian fascism. From the world's most accurate encyclopedia, one might be introduced to Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity, by Nicholas Goodrich-Clarke, which noted that Evola sought to "replace Judeo-Christianity" with a "pagan imperialism" derived from the practices of ancient Rome.

Japanese fascism was also strongly derived from paganism; the emperor was seen as the offspring of a Shinto goddess. Once again, it was implicitly (sometimes explicitly) presented in contrast to the "invading" Christian religion.

The Arrow Cross Party in Hungary? Based, in part, on espousing Magyar paganism. The Metaxas Regime in Greece? Argued in favor of reviving the "heathen values of ancient Greece, specifically those of Sparta," although "the Christian values of ancient Byzantium" were also included.

The Norwegian Nasjonal Samling? Sought a revival of "Viking religion" in Norway. Read this (http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/13shnir.html) for information on the role of paganism in modern Russian fascism. Also look up the "New Life Movement" of the Chinese KMT. Even Fascist regimes that enforced Christianity often based their symbolism on the "national religions."

I don't think these are just coincidences. Fascism is simply the implementation of authoritarian nationalism; if Christianity is an opiate, then Fascism often transformed paganism into methamphetamine.

Dude, the Japanese were just following their own religion at the time. Christianity had been more or less kept to a minimum since the destruction of Amakusa, and the only difference during Japan's militaristic days was a trend away from Buddhism. The emperor had at the time always been seen as a god. It was not new.

[synthesis]

True, but there remains the common theme of rejecting "foreign religion" in favor of the native brand.

[freepalestine]

Raders of the Lost Ark. :)yeh.also,that film and some of whats been written reminds me in many ways,of israeli state archaeology in palestine

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

However the fascist profession of commitment to paganism is limited by their practical commitment to the capitalist mode of production which is paganism's historical enemy.

[ComradeOm]

However the fascist profession of commitment to paganism is limited by their practical commitment to the capitalist mode of production which is paganism's historical enemy.Hmmm? It was Christianity that wiped out paganism... some several centuries before the emergence of industrial capitalism

[Devrim]

To what extent did the various Fascist movements in the 20th century make use of European Paganism to gain support? I know that there were some really fucked up things that Hitler did in connection to German runes but I don't know any specific details.

Not at all. European paganism was an absolutely tiny movement made up of a handful of loons whom even Hitler was disparaging about. There was no support to be gained there worth having.

Effectively there were no pagans in Europe to gain support from.

Devrim

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Hmmm? It was Christianity that wiped out paganism... some several centuries before the emergence of industrial capitalism

Historically speaking the prolonged and systematic persecution of pagans (a.k.a. the "burning times") began during the emergence of capitalism as a force in Europe. Before then, Christian heretics were the primary scapegoat.

[Dimentio]

Historically speaking the prolonged and systematic persecution of pagans (a.k.a. the "burning times") began during the emergence of capitalism as a force in Europe. Before then, Christian heretics were the primary scapegoat.

You mean the "witch burnings"? Most of those women were christian, they were just outcasts from their neighbourhoods or had knowledge of medicine. It isn't an intrinsically pagan thing to know about medicine, and I don't think most ordinary Europeans during the late middle ages/early renaissance made any deep thoughts about religion.

[bcbm]

Hmmm? It was Christianity that wiped out paganism... some several centuries before the emergence of industrial capitalism

i don't think "wiped out" is correct. a lot of pagan traditions persisted, especially in more remote areas and while christianity dominated, there are many cases of christian and pagan beliefs mixing- the benandanti for example.


roughly a century or two prior to the Industrial Revolution. Obviously dating this exactly is an impossible task but it is typically held to have begun during the late 18th C in Britain... the last execution for witchcraft being almost a century prior to this. In the rest of Europe, where industrial capitalism did not arrive until the mid-19th C, the gap is even more pronounced

the witch trials were part of the attack on the poor through primitive accumulation that, i think, marks the beginnings of capitalism.

[ComradeOm]

Historically speaking the prolonged and systematic persecution of pagans (a.k.a. the "burning times") began during the emergence of capitalism as a force in Europe. Before then, Christian heretics were the primary scapegoat.The rash of witch trials ("burning times" is a ridiculously sensationalist phrase) peaked in the late 16th C which was:

1) roughly around 1200 years after the Franks converted. By the time of the trials England had been Christian for 900 years, Germany for around 800-500 years, the Balkans for 700-600 years, Poland was 500 years, and the process was almost complete in Scandinavia about 400 years prior to the witch trials craze. And about 1500 years in Rome and Byzantium. All fairly rough dates of course (it often being a gradual process) but the last major campaign against pagan populations, in Europe, was probably the Northern Crusade which were complete by the early 15th C

2) roughly a century or two prior to the Industrial Revolution. Obviously dating this exactly is an impossible task but it is typically held to have begun during the late 18th C in Britain... the last execution for witchcraft being almost a century prior to this. In the rest of Europe, where industrial capitalism did not arrive until the mid-19th C, the gap is even more pronounced

3) most definitely not some sort of concerted assault against paganism. This is a seriously outdated and discredited notion that relies heavily on modern (neo-pagan) associations between witchcraft and paganism. These links were largely lacking in the 16th/17th Cs. There were many factors behind the burnings/hangings (not least the turmoil and hardship of decades of near-continuous confessional strife) but some sort of over-arching Christian plot to wipe out the witches was not one of them

So no, there is no connection between the emergence of capitalism and an assault on pagans. If only because the dates don't match and paganism as a mass religion had been annihilated some several centuries before "the burning times"

[Kayser_Soso]

the witch trials were part of the attack on the poor through primitive accumulation that, i think, marks the beginnings of capitalism.

No they weren't. People accused of witchcraft could be nearly anyone. I have read one theory that the paranoia might have been the result of an outbreak of Ergotism. Primitive accumulation in those days meant largely slavery.

If the stamping out of Paganism in Europe coincides with anything its the downfall of Classical society and the slave-master system in favor of feudalism.

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

Hmmm? It was Christianity that wiped out paganism... some several centuries before the emergence of industrial capitalism

The emergence of modern industry was, in my opinion, merely the fruition of centuries of primitive accumulation by the bourgeoisie.

Christianity did not have mass-communication, universal compulsory education, etc., only primitive statecraft, so there was a very prolonged emergence of Christian cultural hegemony.


roughly around 1200 years after the Franks converted. By the time of the trials England had been Christian for 900 years, Germany for around 800-500 years, the Balkans for 700-600 years, Poland was 500 years, and the process was almost complete in Scandinavia about 400 years prior to the witch trials craze.

Even after Christianity became the state religion, popular pre-Christian religious traditions persisted, especially with the acquiescence of the Christian establishment of said traditions through religious syncretism.

The total obliteration of pagan ideologies was not needed for the supremacy of the Christian establishment, however it was needed for the primitive accumulation of capitalism.


the last major campaign against pagan populations, in Europe, was probably the Northern Crusade which were complete by the early 15th CYes but the popular folk religions likely persisted until the 17th century.


roughly a century or two prior to the Industrial Revolution.To be clear, we're talking about the primitive accumulation of capitalism which gave way to the industrial revolution.


most definitely not some sort of concerted assault against paganism.If you read the documents of the witch-hunters, it clearly was.


This is a seriously outdated and discredited notion that relies heavily on modern (neo-pagan) associations between witchcraft and paganism. I won't comment on "neo-paganism", (I assume you're talking about shit like Robert Graves.) however the historical reality is obvious, as indicated by the etymology of the word 'witch'. (Grimm, et. al)


There were many factors behind the burnings/hangings (not least the turmoil and hardship of decades of near-continuous confessional strife) but some sort of over-arching Christian plot to wipe out the witches was not one of themIt was not so much a "Christian plot" (the nation-states were actually responsible for more killings than the church bureaucracy) as a necessity of the emergent economic conditions.


You mean the "witch burnings"? Most of those women were christian, they were just outcasts from their neighbourhoods or had knowledge of medicine. It isn't an intrinsically pagan thing to know about medicine, and I don't think most ordinary Europeans during the late middle ages/early renaissance made any deep thoughts about religion.

I'm not as learned on the subject as I should be but I'd guess most socially dissident or socially ostracized Christians of the time were more likely to be persecuted as Anabaptists. (Anabaptism was actually considered more of a threat because it was an organized offensive against the political establishment)

Up until Newton, the scientific tradition of the aristocratic elite was primarily influenced by classical European thought, especially given the influence of the Italian Renaissance. Similarly the folk sciences of the masses were derived from a syncretism of Christianity and "heathen" folk religions. (Compare beliefs about astrology, plants, animals, ghosts, elves/faeries, etc.) Both scientific traditions were inevitably violently destroyed during the emergence of capitalism.

[Dimentio]

In truth, you cannot claim that there was a broad limit between christianity and paganism. Generally, the pagans just christened their old local gods with christian names (and sometimes paganised Christ, like Baldr is an example of).

[ComradeOm]

i don't think "wiped out" is correct. a lot of pagan traditions persisted, especially in more remote areas and while christianity dominated, there are many cases of christian and pagan beliefs mixing- the benandanti for exampleBy 1500 Europe was overwhelmingly Christian. Pagan religions were practised on any scale only on the remotest fringes of the continent (such as Lapland). Now you're correct to point out that a lot of pagan traditions were incorporated into Christianity (open cults like the Benandanti being amongst the extreme examples of this) but this should not disguise the fact that paganism as a mass religion (or, rather, collection of religions) was effectively dead


the witch trials were part of the attack on the poor through primitive accumulation that, i think, marks the beginnings of capitalism.The witch trials were the result of a flaring of millenarianism on a superstitious and war-wracked continent. The violence was indiscriminate and often targeted local officials. A number of witchfinders did enrich themselves (not the same thing as primitive accumulation) but these regularly met violent ends of their own at the hands of communities weary of the violence

(I do like the story, probably false, that the infamous Matthew Hopkins was himself hanged as a witch by a village unwilling to pay his 'fees')


Christianity did not have mass-communication, universal compulsory education, etc., only primitive statecraft, so there was a very prolonged emergence of Christian cultural hegemony.One that was unquestionably complete by the early 17th C. What you are regurgitating is the old notion that paganism survived as a folk religion until it was finally crushed under the guise of witch hunting. This nonsense (most notably advocated by Murray) is itself a product of the fashion for the occult in the early 20th C. Let me be clear - this is bullshit. I know of not one real historian who believes that paganism survived on any scale until the 16-7th Cs or that the witch hunts were an effort to stamp out paganism. There are of course plenty of historians who have lined up, quite rightly, to condemn this as nothing but pseudohistory

"Pre-Christian religious traditions persisted" only insofar as they were incorporated into Christian practices or were relegated to the level of folklore and 'pantry superstition'


If you read the documents of the witch-hunters, it clearly wasAnd if I read the documents of the Nazis, to tie in which this thread, I'll find that they were waging a crusade against Judo-Bolshevism. Were they?

The witch hunters employed violence for their own aims. Some of them were undoubtedly delusional enough to believe that they were doing God's work and saw vast conspiracies were there were none. Others were content to simply persecute their political opponents (including state officials sent to calm the situation down) and label them as part of a vast pagan conspiracy


...however the historical reality is obvious...As I've noted above, academic consensus is almost uniformly in agreement that the "history reality" is essentially the opposite of what you are suggesting. The witch hunts were simply not an attempt to crush a collection of vibrant mass 'folk religions'

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

a lot of pagan traditions were incorporated into Christianity

And were subsequently destroyed by the witch trials...


The witch trials were the result of a flaring of millenarianism on a superstitious and war-wracked continent.

This is unscientific, and pretty much differs little from the History Channel's explanation of the events. You need to apply the principles of Marxism and look to the economic causes. I recommend you read Federici's Caliban and the Witch, if you haven't already.


The violence was indiscriminateAs was the Holocaust, the US firebombing of Japan, and so on...no one said capitalist terrorism was "discriminate".


and often targeted local officials.Not as commonly as it targeted the most poor and marginalized sectors: vagrants, Basques, Gypsies "heathens", divorcees and single women, etc.....


these regularly met violent ends of their own at the hands of communities weary of the violenceReally? I was under the historical impression that resistance to the witch-hunts was relatively uncommon...what specific historical incidents are you referring to?


One that was unquestionably complete by the early 17th C.Actually, you're mostly right, by the early 17th century witch trials were basically just attacks on random socially dissident people, mostly women. But it began as a contradiction between the 'heathen' folk traditions and the march of bourgeois progress.


What you are regurgitating is the old notion that paganism survived as a folk religion until it was finally crushed under the guise of witch hunting. This nonsense (most notably advocated by Murray) is itself a product of the fashion for the occult in the early 20th C. Let me be clear -
this is bullshit.It's good to know you can used boldened obscenity as as a substitute for an academically substantial argument...

Obviously all 19th and 20th century attempts to revive pagan tradition have been shameful. You yourself have admitted that pagan elements were retained in Christian tradition up until the time of the witch trials, it's obvious by examining the existent historical literature that expressions of 'heathen' cultural tropes were a common demarcation of witches. That's not to say there was an 'occult secret society' of witches or a long-lost classical goddess cult, but rather there was the violent shift in ideological hegemony which targeted those who clung to the "superstitious" traditions.


I know of not one real historian who believesIsn't this a "True Scotsman"? Maybe Federici is not a "real historian" because she is a communist and a woman.


were relegated to the level of folklore and 'pantry superstition'And we're talking about the folk and 'pantry' medicine of the peasant masses. Please keep up...


And if I read the documents of the Nazis, to tie in which this thread, I'll find that they were waging a crusade against Judo-Bolshevism. Were they?Well, it is not difficult to infer from those documents, were it not otherwise well-known, that the Nazis were massacring Jews and attempting to colonize Soviet territory.


Some of them were undoubtedly delusional enough to believe that they were doing God's workAt the same time the bourgeois atheist intellectuals such as Hobbes and Newton, who unlike the commoners did not believe in magic or witchcraft, still condoned the witch trials for the necessary destruction of social undesirables. However this is usually ignored by modern bourgeois narratives which scape-goat the witch trials entirely on the "superstitious" and "medieval" Christians.


academic consensus is almost uniformly in agreement that the "history reality" is essentially the opposite of what you are suggesting.And the "academic consensus" is also of the opinion that North America was depopulated of Indians inadvertently. Too bad academic consensus is not always congruent with historical reality

[Dimentio]

Capitalism did not start the witch trials...

[ComradeOm]

And were subsequently destroyed by the witch trials...It really is quite baffling as to how, in a century of massive upheaval caused by theological reform and counter-reform, you pick the witch trials as important


This is unscientific, and pretty much differs little from the History Channel's explanation of the events. You need to apply the principles of Marxism and look to the economic causesThe belief that anything and everything has a economic root is not Marxist. Its simply sort of vulgar economic determinism

Any real materialist and class based analysis of Europe during this period would no doubt point to the disorienting effects of decades of war and confessional strife that a) weakened the powers of the state, b) encouraged this same state to strengthen its central apparatus, c) secured the already established manorial economy, d) bankrupted both communities and governments, e) severely disrupted trade, f) brought about new pressures on the land due to depopulation, and so forth. I could go on and on about the turmoil that affected Europe during this period and how it introduced immense flux into social relations in the formative period of the proto-nationstate

But then why bother with history when you can spin conspiracies about pagan witches and the secret war waged against them?


I recommend you read Federici's Caliban and the Witch, if you haven't alreadyIt was too much to hope that you'd recommend an actual history of the with-hunts by an actual historian. That might be troublesome of course... what with no actual historians agreeing with your analysis. Perhaps they are all off writing for the History Channel?


Isn't this a "True Scotsman"?You clearly do not know the meaning of this expression


Maybe Federici is not a "real historian" because she is a communist and a woman.No, she's not a "real historian" because she is not an historian. She's a social sciences commenter who is hardly qualified to add to the historical record regarding medieval witchcraft. What with, for example, publishing no papers or other works that deal with the history. And, no, Caliban and the Witch does not count. Not least because Federici (IIRC) condones Murray's nonsense

The actual scholars that you want to be reading are the likes of Ronald Hutton, Diane Purkiss (whose The Witch in History: Early Modern and Twentieth-Century Representations so effectively skewers the myth at hand), Jeffrey B. Russell, etc


As was the Holocaust, the US firebombing of Japan, and so on...no one said capitalist terrorism was "discriminate".Yet I have not attempted to argue that either of those was the case of a patriarchal ruling class engaged in some crass form of primitive accumulation


Really? I was under the historical impression that resistance to the witch-hunts was relatively uncommon...what specific historical incidents are you referring to?One example that immediately springs to mind would be Friedrich Forner who was active in Bamberg. Of course resistance to him, and others such as de Lance, was driven not just from the supposed pagans or traumatised communities, but also from local officials and state bodies. For example, Forner had both the town's mayor and chancellor executed before pressure from the Reichshofrat drove him from the town


Actually, you're mostly right, by the early 17th century witch trials were basically just attacks on random socially dissident people, mostly women. But it began as a contradiction between the 'heathen' folk traditions and the march of bourgeois progress.So witch trials at the peak of the craze were simply "random"? Funny that


It's good to know you can used boldened obscenity as as a substitute for an academically substantial argument...Don't talk to me about "an academically substantial argument" when you are the one peddling pseudo-history that is not supported by one expert in the field


You yourself have admitted that pagan elements were retained in Christian tradition up until the time of the witch trials...I did no such thing. The degree to which pagan elements (both Hellenic and otherwise) have been incorporated into Christianity is no secret. I at no point suggested that these once comprised a distinct set of folk religions that were expunged during the witch trials


And we're talking about the folk and 'pantry' medicine of the peasant masses. Please keep up...Except that you have shown nothing to suggest that these "peasant masses" possessed such beliefs in the first place


Well, it is not difficult to infer from those documents, were it not otherwise well-known, that the Nazis were massacring Jews and attempting to colonize Soviet territoryWhich completely sidesteps the point. No one is suggesting that people were not being burned as witches, we are discussing the rationale for this. You suggested that witch-hunter belief in itself was evidence of widespread paganism. This is nonsense and I fail to see why we should treat the wild conspiracies of the Malleus Maleficarum any more seriously than those of Mein Kampf


And the "academic consensus" is also of the opinion that North America was depopulated of Indians inadvertently. Too bad academic consensus is not always congruent with historical realityAnd who decides what the latter is - you? No. The 'reality' is that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the the witch trials were part of a concerted assault against pagan remnants. The entire thesis is entirely unsupported

[Kayser_Soso]

And were subsequently destroyed by the witch trials...

No, Pagan traditions continued after that, particularly in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but even in Protestantism to some extent.






As was the Holocaust, the US firebombing of Japan, and so on...no one said capitalist terrorism was "discriminate".

Apples and oranges.



Not as commonly as it targeted the most poor and marginalized sectors: vagrants, Basques, Gypsies "heathens", divorcees and single women, etc.....

Religious persecution of pagans pre-dates capitalism and mercantilism.



Actually, you're mostly right, by the early 17th century witch trials were basically just attacks on random socially dissident people, mostly women. But it began as a contradiction between the 'heathen' folk traditions and the march of bourgeois progress.

What "bourgeois progress" are you talking about? It was a farming community that could barely survive. It also occurred mainly within one particular religious movement.




Obviously all 19th and 20th century attempts to revive pagan tradition have been shameful. You yourself have admitted that pagan elements were retained in Christian tradition up until the time of the witch trials, it's obvious by examining the existent historical literature that expressions of 'heathen' cultural tropes were a common demarcation of witches.

And long after the witch trials. Soviet researchers found peasants performing pagan rites in villages as late as the 1920s.





And the "academic consensus" is also of the opinion that North America was depopulated of Indians inadvertently. Too bad academic consensus is not always congruent with historical reality

Who says that's the academic consensus?

[Omnia Sunt Communia]

It really is quite baffling as to how, in a century of massive upheaval caused by theological reform and counter-reform, you pick the witch trials as important

Because the massacre of tens of thousands is an important historical event.


The belief that anything and everything has a economic root is not Marxist. Its simply sort of vulgar economic determinismExplain.


Any real materialist and class based analysis of Europe during this period would no doubt point to the disorienting effects of decades of war and confessional strife that a) weakened the powers of the state, b) encouraged this same state to strengthen its central apparatusAnd the witch trials are an expression of B.


Perhaps they are all off writing for the History Channel?No, just the ones who want to scapegoat the atrocities of the witch-hunts on the "superstitious" masses and clerical bureaucrats alone, expunging the role of the state bureaucrats and intellectuals.


No, she's not a "real historian" because she is not an historian. She's a social sciences commenterThat's pedantic.


who is hardly qualified to add to the historical record regarding medieval witchcraft.Her writings on the subject are well-researched which is more important than "qualifications"


And, no, Caliban and the Witch does not count. Not least because Federici (IIRC) condones Murray's nonsenseYour reading comprehension skills are poor, her book criticizes Murray.


Ronald HuttonWho to my knowledge is highly sympathetic to the neo-pagan subculture.


Diane Purkiss (whose The Witch in History: Early Modern and Twentieth-Century Representations so effectively skewers the myth at hand
"Finally, women's confessions show women accused of witchcraft shaping their own stories. [...] cracks in apparently seamless pamphlets or confessions often signify broader faultlines in early modern society as a whole. The denunciation of Anne Bodenham and Anne Jefferies as users of evil magic pointed to their adherence to older, Royalist, traditions disliked by the godly. Their opponents were not necessarily using the term 'witch' disingenously to get rid of opponents; they may genuinely have interpreted ungodliness as a tantamount to a pact with Satan. On the other hand, when the term 'witch' was used of Joan Upney, a different kind of discursive fissure is revealed. There was no longer any place in discourse for someone with her beliefs. 'Witchcraft' became a dumpster for ideas of the supernatural which the better-educated had begun to discard. In one sense, it is difficult to make claims for the agency of poor baffled Joan Upney, whose statements in court reveal inability to grasp the nature of the charges laid against her. However, Joan's adherence to a world-view and a notion of the supernatural profoundly alien to the authoritative discourses enshrined in the witchcraft statutes also demonstrate her relative independence of the very ideologies that the godly were trying to inculcate in the people. Her ignorance of them made her vulnerable when they were mapped awkwardly onto her as part of a witch-hunt, but she had been free of them previously in the sense that she had never troubled her head about them until some neighbours accused her of being a witch."


Jeffrey B. RussellAgain there's nothing necessarily present in that literature that definitively refutes the traditional autonomist marxist / feminist interpretation of the witch hunts' significance. Unless I am missing something that you could direct me towards...


One example that immediately springs to mind would be Friedrich Forner who was active in Bamberg. Of course resistance to him, and others such as de Lance, was driven not just from the supposed pagans or traumatised communities, but also from local officials and state bodies. For example, Forner had both the town's mayor and chancellor executed before pressure from the Reichshofrat drove him from the townSo his witch-hunting campaigns were only viewed as a threat and liquidated by the Reichshofrat once they became so excessively paranoid that they began targeting state officials...this does not contradict my claims that witch hunts were a trend towards the state repression of values and customs that were cause of contradictions in the emergent economic order.


I fail to see why we should treat the wild conspiracies of the Malleus Maleficarum any more seriously than those of Mein KampfMein Kampf is an interesting psychological profile into attacks on Jews just as the Malleus Maleficarum is an interesting psychological profile into attacks on social dissidents of the time


The 'reality' is that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the the witch trials were part of a concerted assault against pagan remnants. The entire thesis is entirely unsupported

A goodly number of Witches were Pagan -- that is, if you take a liberal interpretation of the word "Pagan".
Some scholarly books from the '70's and '80's do indeed dismiss the notion of Pagan Witches. Murray's Witch Cult hypothesis enjoyed tremendous popular support until the 1970's. This enraged many Witchcraft historians, who had long said that there was no evidence to support her thesis. As the new evidence from trial records conclusively debunked Murray's Witch Cult, a lot of academics over-reacted and began to insist that no Witches were Pagan.



The over-reaction was quickly nipped in the bud by Carlo Ginzburg. In a brilliant and meticulously researched study (_Night Battles_), Ginzburg demonstrated that some Italian Witches were indeed drawing on pre-Christian traditions. Most of these Witches were not non-Christian: Ginzburg only found a couple of 15th century Streghe who openly declared that they worshipped Diana. But many others, like the Good Walkers, combined both Christian and Pagan beliefs. (The biography of one Good Walker, Paolo Gasparutto, is on-line.)



Since Ginzburg's ground-breaking work, other researchers have found evidence of Christo-Pagan Witches. Some of the best studies include: _Night Battles_ and _Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbat_, both by Carlo Ginzburg; "The Ladies From Outside: An Archaic Pattern of the Witches' Sabbath" by Gustav Henningsen (appears in _Early Modern European Witchcraft: Centres and Peripheries_ by Bengt Ankarloo and Gustav Henningsen); and "Shamanistic Elements in Central European Witchcraft" by Gabor Klaniczay (appears in his book, _The Uses of Supernatural Power_)

What are your thoughts on Ginzburg, et. al?