Obstacles to class conciousness

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

When a city's sports team wins, the working class fans feel like they have won. They Identify with their team. When their tream is sucessful, they feel that they are sucessful. After all, the team represents them, the people. it is "their team", so when the team loses, they feel they have lost. When they win, they likewise feel that they have won.And this is just a part of their Alienation, they feel power either through Consumerism, i.e buying means posessing and owning=a feeling of power since they have none in their life, either economically or politically. And through their sports team, when their team wins, this=a feeling of power and superiority.

And this is a huge part of the problem. With possessions like homes and autos, this does not qualify one as part of the owning class, who possess income producing corporate property. The former is income-consuming personal use property. But owners of the latter will mistakenly see themselves as having a common interest with those those who expropriate lobor and land for profit. the more they consume, the more successful they feel.and having achieved this affluent, heavily mortgage and precarious middle-class consumer status, these workers find themselves expressing the same moral virtues in their holdings that the owning class expresses, and that is an hosillity toward the less affluent workers.

With much of their life spent indulging in consuming and personal acquisition, after all, the more you possess, the more successful you will be viewed, the more successful, powerful you will feel. Their life becomes committed to property as any of the corporate rich. And when movements call for nationalization,or a more equitable distribution of goods, it is seen as robbing them of the fruits of their labor. They become stricken by fear of equality. And it is this attitude that serves the interests of the owning class. So they develope a shared ideology with the owning class. the will not criticize them, for they would hope to be them, and have what they have one day.

Having given a huge portion of their life's labor to privatized accumulation, people are not ready to stare the truth in the face,admitting that they've spent a better portion of their life, living a morally and ethically bankrupt existence under a morally and ethically bankrupt system. A system that has comsumed their past and mortgaged their future. To do so would be to admit that they have been living by false values and they have wasted their lives. A truth to hard and staggering to embrace.

[communard71]

So, is the “obstacle” to class-consciousness the self-delusional cognitive dissonance on the part of mid-level consumers? Or are these people victimized by capitalist control too? :confused:

[fa2991]

Has anyone else noticed that all of LFB's threads revolve around working people being drunk, stupid, drug-taking, TV-watching, sports-obsessed, meat-eating, servile morons?

[Autumn Red]

This pretty much sums up the American government: Two members of two different Golf Clubs both wanting your money for themselves. They have perpetuated the idea of American "oneness" so that the class lines become blurred due to Nationalism. In America, it doesn't matter if you're working class or middle class, as long as you're a white, protestant, and born here.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

So, is the “obstacle” to class-consciousness the self-delusional cognitive dissonance on the part of mid-level consumers? Or are these people victimized by capitalist control too? :confused:

Good question.It's both. Take the last first.They are controlled buy capitalism through the pressure to consume, and faux self satisfaction that is derived from it, and unbeknownst to them, are alowing themselves to be dominated by it, and dedicating a huge portion of their lives to it, i.e consumer accumulation of products.

And so there is a mental conflict."since i've done well,so it is possible for others to do well, i.e it's their own fault for their position in life". or "it's working for me, therefor it can work for everybody else". or "they did not apply themselves or get an education". Or they blame all the economic problems as being the fault of "Immigrants", "unions", "seniors", "welfare recipientes", "High wages and pensions" siding with the corporations, because after all, they feel that what is good for the coporation is good for them, their interest is my interest. And what is hurting the corporation and hurting their profits is hurting me.for they are trying to climb the corporate latter, they hope to be living a lavish lifestyle.And if anybody comes out and attacks capitalism and the profit motive, and calls for a redistribution of wealth,i.e equality,they feel that you are robbing them of what they have accumulated, and you are distroying their chance of living an affluent life.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Has anyone else noticed that all of LFB's threads revolve around working people being drunk, stupid, drug-taking, TV-watching, sports-obsessed, meat-eating, servile morons?


No, not all, but a percentage. But now that you said that, prove that it isn't true. 2nd, you really should go back and read Marx's theory of Alienation.Because what you are doing is attacking Marx and Engles for calling attention to the condition that capitalism has caused.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No, not all, but a percentage. But now that you said that, prove that it isn't true.
I don't drink, I'm not stupid, I don't do drugs, I barely watch T.V., I only like playing sports I can't stand watching them. I'll admit though I do like my meat. Anyways you're the one making the statement, burden of proof is on you, not us. What's the deal with your hate for the working class anyways?

[jake williams]

No, not all, but a percentage. But now that you said that, prove that it isn't true.
The working class is the most progressive class in history. Almost any major victory achieved by people in industrialized countries - from the 8 hour day and the effective end of child labour to public healthcare and education to feminist and anti-racist struggles - has been won by the fighting working class.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I don't drink, I'm not stupid, I don't do drugs, I barely watch T.V., I only like playing sports I can't stand watching them. I'll admit though I do like my meat. Anyways you're the one making the statement, burden of proof is on you, not us. What's the deal with your hate for the working class anyways?

Again, you are looking at the world and making a judgement by how you live your life. And you are trying to place me in a bad light by saying 'I hate the working class". No, I don't. I hate the mentally lazy condition they are in. And if you can't separate the two, too bad. Again, read Marx's theory of Alienation.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

The working class is the most progressive class in history. Almost any major victory achieved by people in industrialized countries - from the 8 hour day and the effective end of child labour to public healthcare and education to feminist and anti-racist struggles - has been won by the fighting working class.

You are right, WHEN they join forces collectively and use their strength.But there is a difference between fighting for reforms and a revolution.

[Hit The North]

As the current economic crisis confirms, these middle class consumer life-styles, fuelled by access to cheap credit, are not sustainable and even contribute to the depth of the crisis through the accumulation of personal debt and, worse, public debt.

Capitalism remains unstable and prone to crisis and, as Marx discovered 150 years ago, it is incapable of solving its own contradictions. This means that the middle class (or middle income holders) will continue to be squeezed as capital contracts and, in an attempt to right itself, applies pressure on labour. Suddenly, the "income-consuming personal use property", which you mention, the house, the car, all lose value, or are revealed for what they always were: 'debt' - and unsustainable debt when the job goes because of redundancies in the public sector.

There's nothing like a property crash, a pay freeze, or a squeeze on credit, to remind people of exactly where they stand in the scheme of things.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

As the current economic crisis confirms, these middle class consumer life-styles, fuelled by access to cheap credit, are not sustainable and even contribute to the depth of the crisis through the accumulation of personal debt and, worse, public debt.

Capitalism remains unstable and prone to crisis and, as Marx discovered 150 years ago, it is incapable of solving its own contradictions. This means that the middle class (or middle income holders) will continue to be squeezed as capital contracts and, in an attempt to right itself, applies pressure on labour. Suddenly, the "income-consuming personal use property", which you mention, the house, the car, all lose value, or are revealed for what they always were: 'debt' - and unsustainable debt when the job goes because of redundancies in the public sector.

There's nothing like a property crash, a pay freeze, or a squeeze on credit, to remind people of exactly where they stand in the scheme of things.

You are right, and some will join the fight and become class concious, some will not. And they will blame immigrants, unions, seniors,welfare etc.
But thanks for focusing on the purpose of the thread and not skipping over the entire content and saying that I hate workers" lol lol lol.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Again, you are looking at the world and making a judgement by how you live your life. And you are trying to place me in a bad light by saying 'I hate the working class". No, I don't. I hate the mentally lazy condition they are in. And if you can't separate the two, too bad. Again, read Marx's theory of Alienation.

"Again"? What do you mean by "again", I don't remember me and you ever talking before. I'm not the one making assumptions, just an example of where a working class person is not those things. Again burden of proof is upon you, you made the statement, not me. What your rant amounts to is nothing new, it's completely overdone, you're preaching to the choir. We know consumerism is bad, we know what alienation is and how it works here on Revleft. But that doesn't overshadow the fact that you show a great deal of disdain for the left. You never responded to my comments in a thread where you say we're intellectually lazy for shouting "old slogans and revolutionary rhetoric". So it's funny that you say that but at the same time you obviously partake in it. Or did you just figure out what alienation meant?

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I don't drink, I'm not stupid, I don't do drugs, I barely watch T.V., I only like playing sports I can't stand watching them. I'll admit though I do like my meat. Anyways you're the one making the statement, burden of proof is on you, not us. What's the deal with your hate for the working class anyways?


Even Marx said in the "economic and Philosophic Manuscrips" "Private property has made us so stupid and one-sided" so I guess you have a problem with Marx too!!!

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Even Marx said in the "economic and Philosophic Manuscrips" "Private property has made us so stupid and one-sided" so I guess you have a problem with Marx too!!!
Well I don't worship Marx as a god and don't think he's correct in everything he says if that's what you're saying. Marxism isn't a religion buddy.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

"Again"? What do you mean by "again", I don't remember me and you ever talking before. I'm not the one making assumptions, just an example of where a working class person is not those things. Again burden of proof is upon you, you made the statement, not me. What your rant amounts to is nothing new, it's completely overdone, you're preaching to the choir. We know consumerism is bad, we know what alienation is and how it works here on Revleft. But that doesn't overshadow the fact that you show a great deal of disdain for the left. You never responded to my comments in a thread where you say we're intellectually lazy for shouting "old slogans and revolutionary rhetoric". So it's funny that you say that but at the same time you obviously partake in it. Or did you just figure out what alienation meant?

Firt off, the thread isn't about the left. That is a differrent issue. You want proof, here we go, since you have ignored the examples i've given in the past, i'm forced to repeat myself. 50 people show up for a protest of high heating costs, 25,000 show up at 5am for a chicken wing eating contest. A chemical factory in the area is causing high cancer rates, birth defects, respiratory problems, so a rally is called by a group. Nobody shows up. 2 days later over 2,500 show up at a club accross the street to see an Elvis impersonator. SHALL I GO ON?

[Steve_j]

There's nothing like a property crash, a pay freeze, or a squeeze on credit, to remind people of exactly where they stand in the scheme of things.

Good point but as previously mentioned this isnt necessarily such a good thing, without years of strong class conciousness being fostered within the community, sudden increased economic hardship can have some devestating results.

As to the ops question, i might be stating the obvious but i think exposure is a difficult issue, at times of low class consciousness it is very difficult to raise it due to fewer people to disseminate ideas and information, also seeing capitalisms somewhat automated response to class antagonisms sees it constantly trying to reinvent itself in order to survive and subdue dissent is a major challenge.

Edit, also the media, propaganda is an important tool, and when it is primarily controled by corporate, capitalist or government powers that wish to ensure and legitimise their existance we are fighting an uphill battle.

[fa2991]

2nd, you really should go back and read Marx's theory of Alienation.Because what you are doing is attacking Marx and Engles for calling attention to the condition that capitalism has caused.

:confused:


Firt off, the thread isn't about the left. That is a differrent issue. You want proof, here we go, since you have ignored the examples i've given in the past, i'm forced to repete myself. 50 people show up for a protest of high heating costs, 25,000 show up at 5am for a chicken wing eating contest. A chemical factory in the area is causing high cancer rates, birth defects, respiratory problems, so a rally is called by a group. Nobody shows up. 2 days later over 2,500 show up at a club accross the street to see an Elvis impersonator. SHALL I GO ON?

Now that's just plain funny. :lol:

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

:confused:



Now that's just plain funny. :lol:


I'm glad you think that not responding to the issues that are hurting them, killing them is funny. Do you think working people attacking immigrants, attacking government workers, attacking welfare recipients, attacking unions is funny? because this is all part of a lack of class conciousness.It's all part of workers attacking other workers. Are you saying that I shouldn't criticize those workers and their hate for immigrants, the poor etc? Are you saying that I shouldn't criticize working people attacking members of their own class, and fighting against their own interest? can't you see that it isn't hating the working class, but hating their Intellectual mindset.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Well I don't worship Marx as a god and don't think he's correct in everything he says if that's what you're saying. Marxism isn't a religion buddy.



Before I let that go, what is it that you don't agree with, what was Marx wrong about?

[fa2991]

I'm glad you think that not responding to the issues that are hurting them, killing them is funny.

I think it's the Elvis impersonator that did it. That's hilarious.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I think it's the Elvis impersonator that did it. That's hilarious.


Well,l I don't think so. People having to make decisions that are reduced to "shall I fight against being poisoned which will cause workers to lose their jobs because the factory will move, [that was the threat from the owner when he saw the poster] or should we keep our mouths shut and be poisoned slowly". I fail to see the humor in it.

[communard71]

After further thought, I've decided it’s the capitalist class which pose the largest obstacle to class consciousness! Now let’s all leave LFB alone, after all, the large majority of working class people aren’t class consciousness because they are entranced by promises of comfort both overt and covert from the capitalists, as if that’s news to any of us on revleft! The trick is how does a revolutionary cut the population off from their addiction to (the promise of) things and put them on the road to class consciousness? In the end, the only way is to overthrow those in power. So are people capable of that or do they need others to urge them along? If so, how?:)

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Many people are stuck in 1917. they don't realize it's a totally different milieu.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Firt off, the thread isn't about the left. That is a differrent issue. You want proof, here we go, since you have ignored the examples i've given in the past, i'm forced to repeat myself. 50 people show up for a protest of high heating costs, 25,000 show up at 5am for a chicken wing eating contest. A chemical factory in the area is causing high cancer rates, birth defects, respiratory problems, so a rally is called by a group. Nobody shows up. 2 days later over 2,500 show up at a club accross the street to see an Elvis impersonator. SHALL I GO ON?
Well I don't follow you around in threads, I've read and responded to you in one thread I remember and you never responded back. I'm not questioning the fact that the working class is alienated/not class conscious. That's obvious, we are probably the farthest right of any industrialized country. The right went crazy over the public option, people have gone insane making plots to overthrow the government, people kill cops because they think they're taking their guns away, etc, and all because Obama is in office! There is no illusion that we are very class conscious. What I was getting at was you don't make a statement and then ask others to provide proof against what you say.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Before I let that go, what is it that you don't agree with, what was Marx wrong about?
He called Laselle a "Jewish Nigger", that's not cool bruh :cool:

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Well I don't follow you around in threads, I've read and responded to you in one thread I remember and you never responded back. I'm not questioning the fact that the working class is alienated/not class conscious. That's obvious, we are probably the farthest right of any industrialized country. The right went crazy over the public option, people have gone insane making plots to overthrow the government, people kill cops because they think they're taking their guns away, etc, and all because Obama is in office! There is no illusion that we are very class conscious. What I was getting at was you don't make a statement and then ask others to provide proof against what you say.


No, you do when a person is told they are wrong. you just don't tell someone "they're wrong" and then leave it at that. I have no problem being wrong, but it has to be proven.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

He called Laselle a "Jewish Nigger", that's not cool bruh :cool:


In which of his writings can I find this statement?

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

He called Laselle a "Jewish Nigger", that's not cool bruh :cool:


I'm still waiting for proof of this. I'm also shocked that no one challeged this on this board. So I did, and yes, you were right. I will read on further.:(

[La Comédie Noire]

The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation.


It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow’s importunity is also nigger-like.http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm

[A Revolutionary Tool]

In which of his writings can I find this statement?
It's in a private letter to Engels.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm


The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation. The chap would sooner throw money down the drain than lend it to a ‘friend’, even though his interest and capital were guaranteed. In this he bases himself on the view that he ought to live the life of a Jewish baron, or Jew created a baron (no doubt by the countess). Just imagine! This fellow, knowing about the American affair, etc., and hence about the state of crisis I’m in, had the insolence to ask me whether I would be willing to hand over one of my daughters to la Hatzfeldt as a ‘companion’, and whether he himself should secure Gerstenberg’s (!) patronage for me! The fellow has wasted my time and, what is more, the dolt opined that, since I was not engaged upon any ‘business’ just now, but merely upon a ‘theoretical work’, I might just as well kill time with him! In order to keep up certain dehors vis-à-vis the fellow, my wife had to put in pawn everything that wasn’t actually nailed or bolted down!