Revleft makes me....

[BuddhaInBabylon]

feel completely stupid. reading some of the posts and analyses that people write here makes me realize how very little i know. The thing that surprises me the most though is the ages of some of you out there who concern yourselves enough to study, read, and understand the concepts and principles of political science, economics, and philosophy. I'm 26 and i'm just now starting to get a handle on where it is i stand in relation to politics, and why i have always despised capitalism. I still can't even really verbalize the how and why of it all yet. Just feelings mostly. Some of you out there though, i must say, impress the shit out of me.

Sometimes this board also makes me want to bang my head off of a brick wall. But for the most part, you people impress me.:thumbup1:

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think that a lot of people here (myself included, occassionally) just regurgitate information they read in books, which are almost always sources related to whatever their ideological viewpoint is. With some posters this was incredibly obvious (BobKindless's massive walls of text, for example). I'd say that 99% percent of what's on this site is simply regurgitated information and analysis, which doesn't say a whole hell of a lot about the intelligence of the membership.

[Tablo]

Some members really are pretty smart. Regurgitating info is fine as long as you actually understand it and it is all actually relevant.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Some members really are pretty smart. Regurgitating info is fine as long as you actually understand it and it is all actually relevant.

I don't really think so, actually. Anyone can repeat talking points. Even stupid people.

[Rusty Shackleford]

feel completely stupid. reading some of the posts and analyses that people write here makes me realize how very little i know. The thing that surprises me the most though is the ages of some of you out there who concern yourselves enough to study, read, and understand the concepts and principles of political science, economics, and philosophy. I'm 26 and i'm just now starting to get a handle on where it is i stand in relation to politics, and why i have always despised capitalism. I still can't even really verbalize the how and why of it all yet. Just feelings mostly. Some of you out there though, i must say, impress the shit out of me.

Sometimes this board also makes me want to bang my head off of a brick wall. But for the most part, you people impress me.:thumbup1:


wait till you find our the majority of posters are under 20.

im sorry i had to, it was kind of a rub it in joke.

well hey, some of it is us just using marxist/philosophical jargon all the time.
there are some terms which have a lot of theory behind them but if you say bourgeois and capital enough in a post, it looks intelligent.

i wrote a rather lon response in the "what happened to the working class in the US" post in politics.
i spent a half hour thinking and writing an it turned out to be incoherent and only a quarter or half correct. is all trial and error.
for the first few months i was on here i stuck almost strictly to the learning section so i could pick up on whats going on.


this also happens in real life too unfortunately.
most leftists in the US are ideologically driven(most of the time coming from material experiences) but this means that most parties and organizations openly use big words and fancy concepts at meetings. what seems glaringly obvious or simple to us on Revleft actually is a difficult concept for some people. it just takes time:thumbup1:

[Jazzhands]

I think my debating skills have actually gotten much worse since I joined Revleft. Anyone else feel that way?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I think my debating skills have actually gotten much worse since I joined Revleft. Anyone else feel that way?
kinda. we end up getting so used to reveft style arguments we lost our ability to talk to human beings. (yes revleft is populated by robots and you are the only one who is a human!)

[Pavlov's House Party]

kinda. we end up getting so used to reveft style arguments we lost our ability to talk to human beings. (yes revleft is populated by robots and you are the only one who is a human!)

"Yeah but I don't really feel like burgers tonight"

"FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING TROT SCUM, I HOPE YOU'RE BANNED."

[Rusty Shackleford]

"Yeah but I don't really feel like burgers tonight"

"FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING TROT SCUM, I HOPE YOU'RE BANNED."
exactly. lol.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

"Yeah but I don't really feel like burgers tonight"

"FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING TROT SCUM, I HOPE YOU'RE BANNED."
I've had that discussion in real life with a Stalinist (two of them) who called me an anarchist, a trot, a liberal, and a pacifist because I'd rather have veggie burgers than meat ones.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i actually know marxist-leninists who are vegetarians. what people eat isnt really political. unless its babies. Stalinists and Juche ideologues eat babies.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

i actually know marxist-leninists who are vegetarians. what people eat isnt really political. unless its babies. Stalinists and Juche ideologues eat babies.

The same two Stalinists I can quote in saying "This is America where we speak english."

[Widerstand]

what people eat isnt really political.

Say what you want, speciecism will still be reactionary.

^sentence related, I started calling everything reactionary or bourgeois =(

[Jazzhands]

good god, what has happened to us? it's like the board is turning us all into drones powered on dialectics and sectarianism.

inb4 Rosa, again.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The same two Stalinists I can quote in saying "This is America where we speak english."
double-u teaeff
do you know what party they were from or if they were just some assholes?


Say what you want, speciecism will still be reactionary.

^sentence related, I started calling everything reactionary or bourgeois =(
oh you are one of those animal liberation people right? :lol:


good god, what has happened to us? it's like the board is turning us all into drones powered on dialectics and sectarianism.

inb4 Rosa, again.
rosa actually went on to accept dialectics. thats why i havent seen her post in a few months.

[Tenka]

Stalinists and Juche ideologues eat babies.

Slander plain and simple. Babies taste disgusting.

[NecroCommie]

I feel that I am way too accustomed to the rational and coherent way of debating that is dominant in revleft. Then I go into the real world and can't deal with the: "I feel it so it must be true"- arguments. Please revleft, start being less intelligent.

[NecroCommie]

Also, in the real world I grow so irritated at the non-coherent deniers of logic that most of the time I am completely ready to commit 1st degree murder.

[La Comédie Noire]

I've learned a lot from Revleft actually, mostly because it's populated by a bunch of predatory know it alls.


rosa actually went on to accept dialectics. thats why i havent seen her post in a few months.

Hahaha really??

[Widerstand]

oh you are one of those animal liberation people right? :lol:

I'm an ethical vegan. I don't actually waste my time running around stealing animals from farms and spray painting "murder" on meat factories. But I know some people that did/do.


I feel that I am way too accustomed to the rational and coherent way of debating that is dominant in revleft.

Is there some forum newbies can't view? :confused:

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'm an ethical vegan. I don't actually waste my time running around stealing animals from farms and spray painting "murder" on meat factories. But I know some people that did/do.

ok, well im not going to comment any more on this before this turns into a meat eater vs. veg*n thread. which surprisingly are like little nukes on this forum. that and DPRK threads.

[Widerstand]

meat eater vs. veg*n

Sectarianism comes in many shapes and sizes.

[Jazzhands]

rosa actually went on to accept dialectics. thats why i havent seen her post in a few months.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:laugh::laugh::laugh: really? that's hilarious. source???

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Please revleft, start being less intelligent.

I'll try, I promise.



do you know what party they were from or if they were just some assholes?

I do know, do you want me to tell you? There maybe a sectarian shit throwing fight in response.

[La Comédie Noire]

I bet it's like the end of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's nest, they just hunted her down and lobotomized her or put her through some rigorous socialist reeducation program.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'll try, I promise.



I do know, do you want me to tell you? There maybe a sectarian shit throwing fight in response.
just pm im i guess. i dont want some shit to start

[leftace53]

revleft makes me feel illiterate because I've pretty much only read the manifesto, and some kropotkin. That too shoddily.

[Widerstand]

revleft makes me feel illiterate because I've pretty much only read the manifesto, and some kropotkin. That too shoddily.

Can relate. The massive use of theoretical and historical citations on this and other websites has brought me to the point where I can't pass by a book store without looking for new leftist stuff to read. Which sadly happens more often than me actually reading it.

Walls of books. Everywhere around me.

[Tablo]

Thanks to Revleft I have wasted numerous hours reading through marxists.org. :(

[Rusty Shackleford]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:laugh::laugh::laugh: really? that's hilarious. source???
nah i made it up. would be funny though

Thanks to Revleft I have wasted numerous hours reading through marxists.org. :(
whats wrong with marxists.org?

[Tablo]

nah i made it up. would be funny though

whats wrong with marxists.org?
Nothing at all. I actually love the site, but I still spent several hours there instead of doing more important thing like masturbating.

[Chimurenga.]

Slander plain and simple. Babies taste disgusting.

Yeahh... not a fan.

[Widerstand]

Nothing at all. I actually love the site, but I still spent several hours there instead of doing more important thing like masturbating.

I fap to Rosa Luxemburg texts.

[Rusty Shackleford]

c'mon Karinpon and Proletarianrevolution, you know im joking.

[Tablo]

I fap to Rosa Luxemburg texts.
Don't we all?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Nothing at all. I actually love the site, but I still spent several hours there instead of doing more important thing like masturbating.
Talk about a sex drive!!! Ay dios mio!
I don't masturbate much. I do it every couple of weeks or so. I like my Battery Operated Boyfriend. :thumbup::wub::p

[Widerstand]

Talk about a sex drive!!! Ay dios mio!
I don't masturbate much. I do it every couple of weeks or so. I like my Battery Operated Boyfriend. :thumbup::wub::p

YAnyYTjjhJ0

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

YAnyYTjjhJ0
I love that song! But there are no coins involved, just batteries.

[leftace53]

Talk about a sex drive!!! Ay dios mio!
I don't masturbate much. I do it every couple of weeks or so. I like my Battery Operated Boyfriend. :thumbup::wub::p

If its not Sankara's sex life, its Esperanza's :lol:
I kid I kid, I am a degenerate who finds amusement at facepalming when anonymous people on a leftist forum post about their sex lives.

[Il Medico]

Some people on here are brilliant. Some cause me brain damage with their idiotic ramblings. Just like real life.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

If its not Sankara's sex life, its Esperanza's :lol:
I kid I kid, I am a degenerate who finds amusement at facepalming when anonymous people on a leftist forum post about their sex lives.
I was referring to a vibrator. I've decided that I'm taking a break from having a sex life.

I'm also trying to quit drinking, smoking cigarettes and doing drugs that are not just weed.:bored:

[Tablo]

I was referring to a vibrator. I've decided that I'm taking a break from having a sex life.
??? But sex is a break from real life!

[leftace53]

I was referring to a vibrator. I've decided that I'm taking a break from having a sex life.

Yea, I did that for a while. Not bad while it lasted, but its back to the old fashioned way for leftace.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

??? But sex is a break from real life!
For some...

[Il Medico]

And now it's leftace's sex life. lol

[Widerstand]

??? But sex is a break from real life!


For some...

low blow.

[leftace53]

And now it's leftace's sex life. lol

I'll keep you and RevLeft updated about it, don't worry. :lol:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

low blow.
How so? I haven't blown anyone in a while.:rolleyes:

Sex has been mainly a task for me. Something I trade. There are few exceptions.

[Il Medico]

I'll keep you and RevLeft updated about it, don't worry. :lol:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk34/stingrays01/Misc%20Picks%20and%20Avatars/MichaelJacksonEatingPopcorn.gif

[leftace53]

How so? I haven't blown anyone in a while.:rolleyes:

Oral sex causes cancer now!

Oh Doctor, how amusing you are. You are the funny in "funny". A riot indeed. I crack up everytime. et cetera et cetera.

[Blackscare]

I don't really think so, actually. Anyone can repeat talking points. Even stupid people.


Guyz I am original hardxcore.


All facts and opinions you espouse have to originate in your own head or else you're not cool.

[Il Medico]

Oh Doctor, how amusing you are. You are the funny in "funny". A riot indeed. I crack up everytime. et cetera et cetera.
You know it.

[Blackscare]

I've learned a lot from Revleft actually, mostly because it's populated by a bunch of predatory know it alls.



Read: people on the internet who don't care about my feewings and call me out on stupid shit.


(not that I even remember a specific post of yours, or you in general, but that's the only way I can see you calling us 'predatory' lol)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Oral sex causes cancer now!
Well that is great considering the last 5 years or so...


I am fucked.:crying:

[leftace53]

I am fucked.:crying:

Aren't we all.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Yes, especially when I lost count a couple years back.

[Aloysius]

Revleft...Oh the things I could say, be it in praise or admonition...
Many Revlefters seem to be assholes. To me anyway.
Otherwise I like this place. Haven't had any dreams about it yet.
I haven't even touched the Theory forum yet. It's too menacing.
I stick to Chit-Chat, Learning and OI.
Has anyone written an Ode to RevLeft yet?

[leftace53]

Revleft...Oh the things I could say, be it in praise or admonition...
Many Revlefters seem to be assholes. To me anyway.
Otherwise I like this place. Haven't had any dreams about it yet.
I haven't even touched the Theory forum yet. It's too menacing.
I stick to Chit-Chat, Learning and OI.
Has anyone written an Ode to RevLeft yet?

I thought I was nice :crying:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I thought I was nice :crying:
Tears, tears such rivers I can swim in.:rolleyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

dont worry i hardly touch theory or history lol.

[scarletghoul]

It is true that most of the intelligent-looking posts on here are just using marxist jargon and regurgitating pre-existing points or in some cases just historical narratives. This isn't always a bad thing, but yeah don't be fooled into thinking everyone's a super genius or whatever. If you spent all your teen years reading about Albania you could probably write some detailed posts on things too. In other words there's a big difference between knowledge and intelligence.

A few posters here do have a genuine creativity and freshness of thought however, and most Marxists in this era would have to be at least a bit thoughtful. Anyway don't feel stupid, when I first joined RevLeft I made stupid threads like 'marxism is just another religion' or some shit haha

[Rusty Shackleford]

It is true that most of the intelligent-looking posts on here are just using marxist jargon and regurgitating pre-existing points or in some cases just historical narratives. This isn't always a bad thing, but yeah don't be fooled into thinking everyone's a super genius or whatever. If you spent all your teen years reading about Albania you could probably write some detailed posts on things too. In other words there's a big difference between knowledge and intelligence.

A few posters here do have a genuine creativity and freshness of thought however, and most Marxists in this era would have to be at least a bit thoughtful. Anyway don't feel stupid, when I first joined RevLeft I made stupid threads like 'marxism is just another religion' or some shit haha
.

[Tablo]

It is true that most of the intelligent-looking posts on here are just using marxist jargon and regurgitating pre-existing points or in some cases just historical narratives. This isn't always a bad thing, but yeah don't be fooled into thinking everyone's a super genius or whatever. If you spent all your teen years reading about Albania you could probably write some detailed posts on things too. In other words there's a big difference between knowledge and intelligence.

A few posters here do have a genuine creativity and freshness of thought however, and most Marxists in this era would have to be at least a bit thoughtful. Anyway don't feel stupid, when I first joined RevLeft I made stupid threads like 'marxism is just another religion' or some shit haha
I think this is pretty accurate.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

when I first joined RevLeft I made stupid threads like 'marxism is just another religion' or some shit haha
You should be banned!:tongue_smilie::tt2::p:laugh::laugh:

[scarletghoul]

LOL yeah,,
I had like 200 negative rep at one point

well this is why i stick up for naive new members who post stupid things.. many of them can be educated

[Rusty Shackleford]

how does one even neg rep?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

LOL yeah,,
I had like 200 negative rep at one point

well this is why i stick up for naive new members who post stupid things.. many of them can be educated
I was never naive... :rolleyes:

I'm intelligent, I can only apply it to artistic endeavors.

[Aloysius]

I thought I was nice :crying:
You are, by far, the nicest person I've encountered in the 2(?) months I've been here.

[scarletghoul]

I was never naive... :rolleyes:

I'm intelligent, I can only apply it to artistic endeavors.
Artistic intelligence is the only kind that can never truly run dry .. it is always fresh and creative by its very nature, unlike mathematical or scientific or whatever intelligence which operates within a limited space and ultimately interprets things rather than makes them

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Artistic intelligence is the only kind that can never truly run dry .. it is always fresh and creative by its very nature, unlike mathematical or scientific or whatever intelligence which operates within a limited space and ultimately interprets things rather than makes them
Yes, but there is no practical use.

[NecroCommie]

I dont get it. If just repeating knowledge does not count as intelligence, does it mean that differentiating between valid and invalid "knowledge" is not intelligence? A lot of stupid people repeat already made points, yes. Still there is a difference, because these other people have not been able to make a difference between sheer lunacy and actual logic.

Am I the one to talk. I barely ever step outside chit-chat. :D

[La Comédie Noire]

I think what's really astonishing is peoples' capacity here to remember historical information, I read a lot of history, but it's one of those things that's really hard to absorb. Some people are all like "no stupid! in blah blah you had the blah blah which lead to the bleh!"

[Honggweilo]

I was referring to a vibrator. I've decided that I'm taking a break from having a sex life.


well, you've come to the right place; revleft failsafe chastitybelt. be sure to read the manual, or you'll end up a-sexual

[Il Medico]

It is true that most of the intelligent-looking posts on here are just using marxist jargon and regurgitating pre-existing points or in some cases just historical narratives. This isn't always a bad thing, but yeah don't be fooled into thinking everyone's a super genius or whatever. If you spent all your teen years reading about Albania you could probably write some detailed posts on things too. In other words there's a big difference between knowledge and intelligence.

A few posters here do have a genuine creativity and freshness of thought however, and most Marxists in this era would have to be at least a bit thoughtful. Anyway don't feel stupid, when I first joined RevLeft I made stupid threads like 'marxism is just another religion' or some shit haha
This is actually pretty dead on, I think.

[Aloysius]

For me, it's not the history, it's tossing around of words and phrases like "dictatorship of the proletriet" and shit like that. I wish someone could re-write Principals of Communism and Communist Theory in lay-english, because I feel stupid when those words are thrown around.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

well, you've come to the right place; revleft failsafe chastitybelt. be sure to read the manual, or you'll end up a-sexual
Oh good! I could use one of those...


... Of course how would I use my vibrator?

[Honggweilo]

Oh good! I could use one of those...


... Of course how would I use my vibrator?

become mod or admin, enough loop"holes" that way

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

become mod or admin, enough loop"holes" that way
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[RedAnarchist]

For me, it's not the history, it's tossing around of words and phrases like "dictatorship of the proletriet" and shit like that. I wish someone could re-write Principals of Communism and Communist Theory in lay-english, because I feel stupid when those words are thrown around.

I had a look at the Principles of Communism and tried re-writing some of it. Here's what I've done -


What is Communism?

Communism is a political belief regarding the conditions that are required in order to bring down the current system and free the average working person from their monotonous life of working for richer people who can afford a better lifestyle due to owning the factories, tools, equipment and vehicles used by the worker. In Communist theory, the workers are known as the "proletariat", whilst the bosses of the workers (including the government) are the "bourgoisie". The bourgoisie are people who leech off of the workers, harvesting profits that far exceed the wages of their workers in order to become even richer. This is obviously unfair, and this is obviously a situation that does not have to remain.

What is the Proletariat?

Firstly, the world "proletariat" is from the Latin "proletarius", and is used by Communists as a term for the workers, people who are in a lower social class than the "bourgoisie". Bascially, if you do not own your workplace, the company you work for or employ anyone else, then you are a member of the proletariat - a proletarian.

The proletarian must sell their labour power to the bourgoisie in order to recieve a wage. In more basic terms, the proletarian does a task for their boss, and in return they are given their wage. This means that the proletariat class is forever stuck in a position of reliance on the bourgoisie, and until the system is removed, things will remain so. The proletarian will stay as a proletarian, unless he or she decides to exploit his or her fellow workers and attempt to become "bourgois" - a member of the bourgoisie.

Proletarians, then, have not always existed?

There has always been poor people, and there has always been workers. In medieval times, things were far worse for people in most societies in the world - there was an even stricter hierarchy, and many labourers were either slaves, or virtual slaves. The monarch was always at the top, along with the nobility. The clergy of whatever religion was dominant were usually high up the hierarchy themselves, exploiting the fear of uneducated, illiterate labourers in order to get even richer - the roof repair funds of the day were taken seriously back then by the labourers, and because they couldn't read, they couldn't scrutinise the religious scriptures. It's a sad fact that throughout much of human history, the religious leaders of the world have exploited the fears and superstitions of much of society, and many people went to their graves after a short life of work, church, misery and disease.

As capitalism developed, and as people overthrew their kings and queens, the monarchs and nobles were replaced by presidents, prime ministers, politicians, business owners and entrepreneurs, although the clergy remained. The richer "bourgoisie" held the vast majority of power and wealth, and the proletariat were expected to start work at an early age and early in the morning, and they were expected to work for most of their lives. Back in the days of Karl Marx, the workers had very few rights, and were expected to work six days a week with a meagre wage. There was no minimum wage, no sick days, no bank holidays, no five day working week. Workers in the early 21st century can thank the communists, anarchists and socialists of the 19th and 20th centuries for much of their rights today, although we still have a long way to go. Of course, the bourgouisie would prefer it if we just accepted what we've got, to not be so "selfish", but the workers need not listen to these hypocritical, greedy, exploitative leeches. Even though communism offers everyone a better life, they would much rather keep their capitalist system, keep their huge riches so vast that they couldn't spend it all if they had a hundred years to do so.

How did the proletariat originate?

The origins of the proletariat are to be found in the Industrial Revolution of the 18th and 19th centuries that began in the United Kingdom and spread throughout the world.

It was thanks to human creativity and invention that the Industrial Revolution took place. The invention of such objects as the mechanical loom and the steam engine were to bring about a shift in the UK, from being a mostly agricultural society to being a mostly industrial society, with the same effect happening elsewhere as the Industrial Revolution spread. Such machines were expensive to obtain, and as such only the rich capitalists - part of the bourgoisie - could buy them. As they were more efficient than workers with more traditional tools and machinery, this meant that the ability to produce goods was held firmly in the hands of the richest members of society.

The task of producing an object became more divided, and now instead of one worker producing one object, there were many workers making parts of an object, which was then assembled into the final product. This meant that it was now possible to produce goods quicker and faster, and so mass production developed. What could once only be done by humans could now be done by machines.

The workers were now deprived of the independence that they had once had by producing their goods in the traditional ways, and were now becoming dependent on their bosses, who became even richer as the profits increased. It was as if the workers had become objects themselves, just like the machines they now used to make goods for their bosses, who would give them a wage in return, which could then be spent on buying the goods made by other workers, and giving other bosses more money. The workers are the source of all profit, but they see only a tiny fraction of it, whilst the bosses get most. Sadly, most workers seem to see this as acceptable, that someone who had "worked hard" to build up a business deserved their massive profits.

Because of the Industrial Revolution, society became more divided along class lines - the division between bourgoisie and proletariat was evident, and still is today regardless of what some may like to think. These two classes, "bourgoisie" and "proletariat", can be explained further as -

( The class of the capitalists, who own the factories, the companies and get most of the profit for doing the least amount of work. This class owns and controls the means of producing goods, and so have an unfair share of the wealth of their society. This class is the bourgoisie.

(b) The class of the workers, who must work for the capitalist class in order to recieve a wage. This class must devote most of their days, most of their week and most of their lives to creating a profit for their bosses. This class is the proletariat, and they must sell their labour to the bourgoisie in order to support themselves - i.e. they must do a task for a wage.

Under what conditions does this sale of the labour of the workers to the capitalists take place?

Labour - the ability of a worker to do a task - is a commodity that can be bought and sold just like any other. In a capitalist society, the price of a commodity is equal to the cost of its production. The price of labour is therefore equal to the cost of the production of labour.

This creates a problem for the worker - the costs of production consist of the quantity of what is necessary for the worker to be able to work, in order to enable the worker to continue working, and to prevent the proletarian class from dying out. In more simple terms, the worker will only get a wage that is necessary for his survival, which is necessary to allow him to work, which is necessary for the capitalist if he or she wishes to make a profit. The capitalist wishes to make as large a profit as possible, and certainly doesn't want the worker to get more than he or she needs! This will continue for as long as the current capitalist system is in place - the capitalist gives only the minimum necessary to the worker, and the worker gives as much as the capitalist wants, which always dwarfs what the capitalist has given to the worker.

In fact, a minimum wage has only existed in most countries for a very short time - it is one of the little breadcrumbs that the capitalists have thrown to the workers in their deluded hope that these breadcrumbs will forever appease the workers, but eventually the workers will not accept breadcrumbs and will instead seize the loaf! The first minimum wage law was in 1894 in New Zealand, which is very early compared to Ireland's minimum wage law (2000), Pakistan (1992), United Kingdom (1999) and the United States (1938). Many countries still do not give workers a minimum wage, a situation which is unacceptable in modern times.

Since business can be volatile, it follows that the worker sometimes gets more and sometimes gets less for his or her labour, but in reality this does not happen and the worker must be happy with his or her minimum. Recessions and depressions, such as the recent recession, are caused by capitalists, but it is the workers who are hit hardest, because in a capitalist society they are the ones who must be worst off. This economic law operates more strictly in societies where big business has more power and control.

What working classes were there before the Industrial Revolution?

The working classes of the world have always lived in different circumstances and had different relationships to the owning and ruling classes, such as the nobility of feudal times. Modern workers - in the West, at least - have a much better, easier life than their ancestors did, but the current system is not something that they have to accept. Society can be better off without capitalism, without this cycle of exploitation.

Many workers in previous eras were slaves, and there still are many people held as slaves even today, a human tragedy that should be being stamped out, but this will never happen in a world where people are still seen by the rich as commodities that can bring them even more profit. For much of human history, owning people as slaves was seen as normal, even good if you got a profit out of your slaves. It has only been recently, with the continuing rise of the workers from their knees, that slavery has become a vile and inhuman atrocity that should be seen as a part of history and not as a reality for many people even today.

In the Middle Ages of Europe, the workers were serfs of the land-owning nobles and not expected to be anything more than a serf. They spent six days a week toiling in the fields for their masters, and on Sundays went to church where they were scolded like naughty children by the clergy, and told of horrible torments that would last for eternity if they did not obey god and his commandments, adn back then the monarch was seen as someone who was placed in their position by god, so the serfs were told to obey those above them in the hierarchy as well. A terrible and probably short life, and one probably blighted by disease, poverty, hunger and fear - it would provide them with great comfort to know that their descendants grew sick of the exploitative leeches of the ruling classes and overthrew them in a series of revolutions. It would bring great joy to them that the workers had some sort of control over their lives. One day, our descendants will have finally removed this unfair system from our societies. Perhaps, if we are optimistic, we will be the generations that begin that process?

In what way do proletarians differ from slaves?

The slave is sold and he or she is then owned by someone else for the rest of their life, whilst the proletarian must sell themselves every day and every hour in order to survive. Whilst we may not have the total loss of freedom and personhood that a slave suffers, we are similar in that we are commodities used by those more richer and powerful than us to gain some sort of profit. The individual slave is assured an existence - if it can be called that - because it is in his or her master's interests. The individual worker has no such assurance - he or she is only useful to the capitalist when they can provide a profit -and any such assurance of an existence belongs only to the proletarian class as a whole. To the capitalist, it is acceptable that someone may be homeless, or stealing food to survive, but it is not acceptable for the proletarian class to die out, because that would result in the loss of their profit.

The slave does not need to compete - for him or her, there is no "rat race", because there is no competition between slaves. There is, however, competition between workers, which is something that only benefits the capitalist. Co-operation between the workers is necessary in order to remove the need for capitalists - for them, trade unions and worker cooperatives are a nightmare.

The slave is not counted as a human being, for he or she is simply a possession in the minds of any twisted society that finds slavery to be acceptable. The worker, however, is counted as a human being and is therefore on a higher social level than the slave. the capitalists would have no concerns about bringing back slavery if it was profitable.

The slave can free him or herself by fighting against his/her situation and become a proletarian, but the proletarians themselves can only be freed by the abolishment of private property in general.

In what way do proletarians differ from serfs?

The serf possesses and uses an instrument of production, a piece of land and in order to keep that land the serf gives up part of their product or part of the services of their labour. The worker works with the instruments of production owned by the capitalists, for the profit of the capitalists, and in exchange receives a small part of that profit.

The serf gives up, whilst the proletarian recieves. The serf, like the slave, has an assured existence whilst the proletarian does not, and like the slave, the serf is outside competition whilst the proletarian is inside it.

The serf has a few ways of liberating themselves - either they move to the cities and large towns of their country and become a handicraftsman - these would be people like carpenters, tailors and masons. Another option would be to give money to his lord and therefore becomes a free tenant of his land, or he ovethrows his lord and becomes a property owner himself. All three of these options lead to one result - the serf climbs into the owning class and enters into competition. Meanwhile, the proletarian has only one option - to liberate themselves by abolishing competition, private property and all class divisions and distinctions.

[Aloysius]

I had a look at the Principles of Communism and tried re-writing some of it. Here's what I've done -

I love you forever.

Just sayin'.