"Let us rise" 32 CSM

[fionntan]

As Irish Republican Socialists we must always rise above
superficial nationalism and recognise uniting the country
is one part of a much larger goal. Any Country that wishes
to be free will not find freedom in that fact that the
country is a Sovereign entity. Nor does a Sovereign country
necessarily mean a ‘united’ country as we see in the
vast majority of countries across the world. What unites
Ireland and the world more than anything is the nature of
our opposition to class inequality and division.
Class inequality and division is the tool of the
oppressors. Take the Twenty Six counties for example, where
5% of the population owns over 90% of the wealth, does that
sound like a united country? On a larger scale we also have
the government giving away countless millions of Euros worth
of oil to Shell and other corporations. Keep in mind we are not
getting any money for it nor do we even get any discount on
the Oil. The oil plants being created in Mayo are guarded by
hundreds of Gardai who should be tackling crime, but instead
they are being paid to guard an oil plant that is stealing our
natural resources. This plant is also killing the rare wildlife in
the area and destroying the once untamed beauty of the area
, not only that, but the lives of the locals are in serious danger
as these plants have exploded in the past and caused massive
devastation.
The government here is also an accessory to the
murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children in
Afganistan and Iraq. Shannon airport is being used to refuel
US planes that go on to land troops into Afghanistan to fight
the USA's old allies. These planes are also capable of dropping
gigantic bombs on cities that cause huge damage and
civilian casualties with no warning given. On top of that the
Lisbon scandal was an insulting affair. We in the 32 county
Sovereignty Movement opposed Lisbon mainly on the basis
that it recognised the illegal occupation of the six counties and
did not allow the entire 32 counties to vote. When the Twenty
Six counties did vote no we were all told (in dressed up terms)
that we were essentially too stupid to actually know what we
where voting for! And so our democratic vote was blatantly
ignored - and we where made to vote again. Scare mongering
and lies were the order of the day as Irelands corrupt elite
urged for a YES vote, ''vote yes for jobs'' they said. Now many
months on some people are starting to conclude that it was all
a lie.
Keep in mind what is mentioned here was not done
by the British Government, but the so-called "Government of
the Irish Republic" (sic). Who many claim are already discredited
by claims of corruption. If the occupied six counties were
liberated tomorrow, it would be a sad event if either Fianna
Fail or Fine Gael assumed control. With levies and wage cuts
being thrown upon the majority of people, the situation of the
working class people has become desperate. Is this the type
of Ireland we wish to consolidate? Where the working class
pay for the gluttony of the rich? A truly united Ireland would be
(to take a slogan from Mexico's EZLN) THE PEOPLE
DEMAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OBEY.
In the occupied six counties the British Army supplied
weapons, trained and gave intelligence to the Loyalist death
squads. Many were ordinary Working Class Catholics. Why is
“We as Republicans are apart of an international
struggle that takes place across the world. Many
of the world's Nations oppress the huge majority
of people for their own greedy ends. These countries
may appear to be united on a map and within
their geographical boundaries, but they are far
from free or equal.”
James Connolly - The biggest loss in any one person the Republican
struggle sustained.
this you may wonder? The whole idea was to create a sectarian
conflict, that brought the Loyalist and Republican areas
into conflict with each other. To blur the aims of Republicans
and bog them down in a tribalised conflict where the British
could be seen as the honest broker. This is not new to Ireland,
this has been done all over the world. The capitalists will use
any division they can to keep the working class fighting
amongst each other and not fighting with those in control.
They will use things such as religion, colour and creed. They
do not want a united, educated working class who will challange
their disgraceful behaviour and corrupt rule - that is
what they fear.
The creation of a 32 County Socialist Republic
requires the participation of the working class. But not only the
working class. It also requires the full unity of the Republican
base. Currently, due to the British Imperialist presence upheld
by their colonial militia and the 5000 garrisoned troops, communities
and Republicans themselves are divided. We have a
Republican/Loyalist divide so strong that one cannot even
attempt to build bridges while the British remain. Furthermore
we have so many Republican organisations (again due to the
presence of the British) and the differences within the political
landscape we remain weakened. The division in Ireland has
been planted in the Unionist mindset and stoked by the British
to tribalise the conflict and destroy the achievement of
Republican aims. It must not be merely ''BRITS GET OUT OF
IRELAND'' it must also be ''CAPITALISTS GET OUT OF IRELAND''.
If we achieve unity tomorrow, the Free State government
would very likely keep volunteers in jail, and when they
get out of jail they'll ensure it would be hard for them to get
employment. Is a Pro-Capitalist Ireland under the boot of
today's mainstream parties what volunteers want to risk their
lives for? A country where people are getting imprisoned for
small fines when the government has been robbing us off millions
and getting away with it?
We as Republicans are apart of an international
struggle that takes place across the world. Many of the
world's Nations oppress the huge majority of people for their
own greedy ends. These countries may appear to be united
on a map and within their geographical boundaries, but they
are far from free or equal. The removal of partition is a huge
step towards the Socialist Republic, where we will build a free
Ireland and rise up against the corrupt governments, corrupt
police forces and their financial backers in the banking system.
A country where the people have a voice, a country
where education and healthcare is a right and not a privilege
that you struggle to pay for. Where our communities work as
one to tackle crime, and where the Gardai are fully accountable
to the people. An Ireland where the homeless will not be
left to die on the streets, a place where the old will not be
abandoned and where the vulnerable will be taken care of.
Where the working class will have their rights and dignity
recognised. An Ireland that will not sell or build roads over its
own heritage, and where our rivers will not be polluted. A
country that will value its neutrality and speak out as a nation
against the murder campaigns of the USA, Israel, and Britain.
Ultimately we must try to build a country where the people
administer the law with the people in mind.
It is up to Republican Socialists to lead the way. We
must stand alongside our communities and build from inside
the Republican Socialist base that will sustain us in our goals.
We must protect the people from the injustices thrown upon
them. While so called ''socialists'' stand at the back bench
begging the capitalists for minor reform, let it be known that it
is Irish Republicans who are out there alongside the people
acting out what these champagne revolutionaries only talk
about. Republicans must not resign themselves to talking
shops and backroom rhetoric as have so many others. Neither
is there any fooling ourselves that this will all be done by 2016.
We must set about creating the foundations of an alternative,
not just for Republicans, but for the working class as a whole.
The Men and Women, boys and girls, of the Irish Republican
Army did not lay down their lives so their children could be
exploited by the Capitalist Irish republic. James Connolly has
been the biggest loss in any one person Ireland has ever sustained.
James Connolly said that ''Only the Irish working class
remain as the uncorruptable inheritors of the irish struggle for
freedom''. But we do not have the Irish working class in charge
of their own government. We do have however shameless
profiteers and political family dynasties who join the "family
business" when they are old enough. Is this the type of Ireland
we wish to create? We as Republicans stood up to Britain
because they exploited the people through systems of slavery,
had no respect for our culture and ruled with an iron fist when
we cried out for change. What has changed? Nothing it
seems. We must put our struggle into perspective, if we speak
up simply against Britiain, all we really fight for is an
enlargened Free State. Ar aghaidh chuig an Phoblacht
sóisialaí! Onwards to the Socialist Republic!

[fionntan]

Here is the link to the news sheet/Republican news of the 32CSM. http://32csm.info/am10.pdf

[777]

32CSM sems to be building into quite a force!:thumbup1:

[costello1977]

32csm sems to be building into quite a force!:thumbup1:

up the rira!

[Small Geezer]

So 32csm are socialists?

[Who?]

So 32csm are socialists?

Yes, they are, take a look...

From Wikipedia:
Political Ideology Physical force Irish republicanism
(Linked to the Real Irish Republican Army),
Socialism

[Nachie]

According to this thread (http://www.anarchistblackcat.org/index.php/topic,6614.msg70356.html) many Irish anarcho-syndicalists see them as nationalist bigots better not associated with

[Saorsa]

^ Who cares?

[Volcanicity]

According to this thread (http://www.anarchistblackcat.org/index.php/topic,6614.msg70356.html) many Irish anarcho-syndicalists see them as nationalist bigots better not associated with
LOL.As if they give a shit what Anarcho-syndicalists think.

[The Vegan Marxist]

According to this thread (http://www.anarchistblackcat.org/index.php/topic,6614.msg70356.html) many Irish anarcho-syndicalists see them as nationalist bigots better not associated with

Sooo, why exactly should we believe them? :confused:

[fionntan]

According to this thread (http://www.anarchistblackcat.org/index.php/topic,6614.msg70356.html) many Irish anarcho-syndicalists see them as nationalist bigots better not associated with


But yet if i were to say that i see Anarcho syndicalists in Belfast as a lot of rich kids completely detached from the working class would my word be taken on it???

[fionntan]

According to this thread (http://www.anarchistblackcat.org/index.php/topic,6614.msg70356.html) many Irish anarcho-syndicalists see them as nationalist bigots better not associated with


Great link a Swedish anarchist saying keep members of the 32CSM away from protests because they have a military wing:lol: and a Irish man saying ach well we cant stop them attending:rolleyes: The 32CSM are the organisers of the majority of these protest they speak of.

[Devrim]

They are supporters of the sort of people who justify shooting pizza delivery men because they are supporting imperialism, and place bombs in town centres. They have that sort of interest in the working class.

Devrim

[fionntan]

They are supporters of the sort of people who justify shooting pizza delivery men because they are supporting imperialism, and place bombs in town centres. They have that sort of interest in the working class.

Devrim


I was wondering when you would of stuck your pacifist rant in. "They" as you refer to the IRA executed 2 British soldiers and injured a collaborator in the operation you refer to. And your reference to bombs in town centres ?? Where would you prefer they were planted in forests??

[Devrim]

I was wondering when you would of stuck your pacifist rant in. "They" as you refer to the IRA executed 2 British soldiers and injured a collaborator in the operation you refer to. And your reference to bombs in town centres ?? Where would you prefer they were planted in forests??

It is not pacifism at all. I just don't see that shooting "collaborators", which I believe means a Polish and an Irish pizza delivery man, and putting bombs in the centre of Omagh, killing 29 people and injuring a further 220 have anything at all to do with the struggle of the working class.

Devrim

[Devrim]

But yet if i were to say that i see Anarcho syndicalists in Belfast as a lot of rich kids completely detached from the working class would my word be taken on it???

The last one that I met was a train driver.

Devrim

[fionntan]

The last one that I met was a train driver.

Devrim


Yeah Jason is an exception..

[fionntan]

It is not pacifism at all. I just don't see that shooting "collaborators", which I believe means a Polish and an Irish pizza delivery man, and putting bombs in the centre of Omagh, killing 29 people and injuring a further 220 have anything at all to do with the struggle of the working class.

Devrim

What has the collaborators nationality got to do with it? Good try but...

And Omagh was a British bomb...

[fionntan]

It is not pacifism at all. I just don't see that shooting "collaborators", which I believe means a Polish and an Irish pizza delivery man, and putting bombs in the centre of Omagh, killing 29 people and injuring a further 220 have anything at all to do with the struggle of the working class.

Devrim

While men like Joseph Craven McMonagle and McCann
Will fight and die until they drive those tyrants from our land
Young and old side by side fighting day by day
They are the Army of the People - the IRA!

They know because history has taught them
The errors of the past
They know that freedom does not mean the Tricolour
from the mast
Free Staters call them traitors, and at every chance betray
The Army of the People - the IRA!

Beware the risen people
The workers on the march
They stand for Connolly, Costello and the vision of Karl Marx
So if you want an Ireland, socialist and free
Join the Army of the People - the RIRA! :thumbup1:

[Palingenisis]

What has the collaborators nationality got to do with it? Good try but...

And Omagh was a British bomb...

Pizza delievary men are hardly Marshall Petain.

[fionntan]

Pizza delievary men are hardly Marshall Petain.

Thats beside the point the message has always been clear in Ireland If you collaborate with the enemy in any shape or form be prepared to pay the consequences. So an easy solution is don't...

[Leo]

This is a disgustingly anti-working class position.

[fionntan]

You see Leo i think the opposite. The occupation forces and collaborators are anti working class oppressors and are treated as such...

[Palingenisis]

Thats beside the point the message has always been clear in Ireland If you collaborate with the enemy in any shape or form be prepared to pay the consequences. So an easy solution is don't...

What did the Pole know about Ireland?

And let's remember this didnt happen in the middle of a campaign. Its not also like he was doing construction work on the base or was involved long term in aiding British Imperialism, or aiding it in any particularly meaningful way.

It would be much better if you just said that the delieverary boys getting shot was a tragedy and shouldnt have happened rather than dress them up as BA recruiting agents or whatever. It makes you look like psychoes.

[Leo]

You see Leo i think the opposite. The occupation forces and collaborators are anti working class oppressors and are treated as such... You are justifying, in fact praising the murder of workers, the murder of pizza delivery men because they were just doing their job, that is delivering pizzas.

This is a despicable nationalist argument, it is a completely anti-working class position.

Pizza delivery men are workers, they are not, no matter who they deliver their pizzas to, "anti-working class oppressors". The real anti-working class oppressors are the nationalists who murdered them, proving once again that they are as disgustingly brutal as the British Army.

[Palingenisis]

They know because history has taught them
The errors of the past
They know that freedom does not mean the Tricolour
from the mast
Free Staters call them traitors, and at every chance betray
The Army of the People - the IRA!


Have the Reals and their supporters really learned the errors of the past? In my experiance a lot of you believe that the war was winable only that the Provos were stabbed in the back by Gerry and Marty failing to see why the Provos were incapable of driving out the Brits...No mind getting rid of capitalism.

[fionntan]

I am looking at Irish history and that tells us that collaborators in what ever shape or form end up in a bad way..And why would i have to say the delivery MEN getting shot was a tragedy i dont speak for the IRA..Im mearly a supporter of Irish independence and socialism.

[fionntan]

You are justifying, in fact praising the murder of workers, the murder of pizza delivery men because they were just doing their job, that is delivering pizzas.

This is a despicable nationalist argument, it is a completely anti-working class position.

Pizza delivery men are workers, they are not, no matter who they deliver their pizzas to, "anti-working class oppressors". The real anti-working class oppressors are the nationalists who murdered them, proving once again that they are as disgustingly brutal as the British Army.


The
collaborators

wernt
killed.. You really want to know what your talking about before jumping in. Two
British

mercenaries
were executed..

[Devrim]

What has the collaborators nationality got to do with it? Good try but...

And Omagh was a British bomb...

Which was why the Real IRA admitted it and apologised at the time:


First Statement issued by those calling themselves the "real" IRA to the Dublin office of the Irish News Tuesday 18 August 1998.
In a statement to the Dublin office of the Irish News, the group admitted planting the Omagh bomb which killed 28 people and injured 220.
The "real" IRA claimed there had been "three warnings put in, there were 40 minutes warning on each of them" before Saturday's explosion in Omagh.
The group went on to claim that two warning calls had been made to UTV and one to the Samaritans in Coleraine.
"Each time the call was made it was very clear and the people talked back.
"The location was 300-400 yards from the courthouse on the main street.
"At no time was it said it was near the courthouse. It was a commercial target."
The group went on to say that they did not intend "at any time to kill any civilians".
According to the statement by the group, the bomb attack was "part of an ongoing war against the Brits".
"We offer apologies to the civilians."


Or was that the Brits too?

Devrim

[fionntan]

Which was why the Real IRA admitted it and apologised at the time:



Or was that the Brits too?

Devrim


Thats not an IRA statement its a news headline you copied and pasted:lol::lol:

[costello1977]

Which was why the Real IRA admitted it and apologised at the time:



Or was that the Brits too?

Devrim


Considering that for the most part a lot of socialists on this forum are basing their intelligence and opinion on articles and reports from the anti-Republican, pro-imperialist British media, they will never truly grasp the class nature of the struggle in Ireland.

Also, what in the name of sam hill is the criac with putting your name at the end of every statement. Strikes me as a bit self important and unsocialist.:confused:

[Leo]

The
collaborators

wernt
killed..

I presumed they died after being shot at - most people tend to. Doesn't really change the issue though.

[Devrim]

Thats not an IRA statement its a news headline you copied and pasted:lol::lol:

Obviously, I think the full statement was this:


This is about the explosion. This is Oglaigh na hEireann [IRA]. There were three warnings and there were 40 minutes' warning on each of them - two to UTV and one to the Samaritans in Coleraine. Each time this was made clear and people talked back."The location was 300 to 400 yards from the courthouse on the main street. At no time was it said it was near the courthouse. It was a commercial target. Despite media reports it was not our intention at any time to kill any civilians.
"It was a commercial target, part of an ongoing war against the Brits. We offer apologies to the civilians.

It was widely reported in the media at the time, and I don't remember them denying it was their statement, which I presume they would have if it hadn't been.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

I am looking at Irish history and that tells us that collaborators in what ever shape or form end up in a bad way..And why would i have to say the delivery MEN getting shot was a tragedy i dont speak for the IRA..Im mearly a supporter of Irish independence and socialism.

Actually some collaborators have ended up doing quite well for themselves.

And maybe you should say its a tragedy because its a tragedy that made the IRA and Republicans in general look like psychoes in the eyes of a lot of basically progressive ordinary people. There are degrees of collaboration and delievering a Pizza to a base during a time when there is no armed campaign going on ranks pretty low down the scale.

[costello1977]

How does it not change the issue? You said they were needlessly killed, but they weren't. Moreover, the fellas were told to get out of the way twice before the vols opened fire according to security sources.

Grasping at straws cara, you need to get your head out of the sand, partition and acceptance of British rule in Ireland will forever condemn the working class of Ireland, whose biggest enemies are the business interests of the British Empire and the corrupt greed of the bourgeoisie leaders of the "Free State"!

[Palingenisis]

Obviously, I think the full statement was this:

It was widely reported in the media at the time, and I don't remember them denying it was their statement, which I presume they would have if it hadn't been.

Devrim

There is substanial evidence that it was work of agent provocatuers and certainly the UK, Free State and US goverments knew all about it and let it go off.

[costello1977]

There is substanial evidence that it was work of agent provocatuers and certainly the UK, Free State and US goverments knew all about it and let it go off.

It also exploded ten feet or so from a RUC cordon and yet not one peeler was injured. When have you ever seen an unmanned police cordon?:confused:

[Palingenisis]

How does it not change the issue? You said they were needlessly killed, but they weren't. Moreover, the fellas were told to get out of the way twice before the vols opened fire according to security sources.

Grasping at straws cara, you need to get your head out of the sand, partition and acceptance of British rule in Ireland will forever condemn the working class of Ireland, whose biggest enemies are the business interests of the British Empire and the corrupt greed of the bourgeoisie leaders of the "Free State"!

Trotskyism and maybe even Anarchism has more support in the Free State than the 32 csm and the RIRA.

[costello1977]

Trotskyism and maybe even Anarchism has more support in the Free State than the 32 csm and the RIRA.

Sadly true, but neither makes an impact past the pumps in the local. The fact of the matter is that in Belfast, Cork, Sligo, Dublin and Derry, 32csm are progressive helping people tackle anti-social behaviour, poverty and sectarian intolerance. The media blackout on these actions are the only hinderance on the Republican movement.

[Leo]

How does it not change the issue? You said they were needlessly killed, but they weren't.

Shooting pizza delivery men and justifying it saying they are "collaborators" quite clearly puts forward an anti-working class nationalist mentality. It doesn't change the issue one bit. I can go back to my initial post, and change the words "murder" with "getting shot". The point would however fundamentally remain the same.

[Tifosi]

How does it not change the issue?

Because I'd imagine getting shot isn't to pleasant

[costello1977]

Shooting pizza delivery men and justifying it saying they are "collaborators" quite clearly puts forward an anti-working class nationalist mentality. It doesn't change the issue one bit. I can go back to my initial post, and change the words "murder" with "getting shot". The point would however fundamentally remain the same.

So its anti-working class to shoot those who uphold the British Imperialism that subjugates the Irish working class, which only furthers the interest of the Irish ruling class?

Maybe I don't grasp the subtle nature of socialism, but some how I can't help but feel that there is an inherent contradiction in your position which is that you are trying to justify your opposition of a working class struggle by trying to convince yourself it is not a working class struggle.

Take it from me cara, the recent upsurge of "violence" has been caused by the massive social and economical deprivation rampant in Republican areas.

[costello1977]

Because I'd imagine getting shot isn't to pleasant

Pointless post, no one is discussing whether it is sore or not!

[fionntan]

Shooting pizza delivery men and justifying it saying they are "collaborators" quite clearly puts forward an anti-working class nationalist mentality. It doesn't change the issue one bit. I can go back to my initial post, and change the words "murder" with "getting shot". The point would however fundamentally remain the same.


And my point would still be fundamentally the same you dont know what you are talking about. But to get back on track the article posted is from the 32CSM not the IRA.

[Palingenisis]

So its anti-working class to shoot those who uphold the British Imperialism that subjugates the Irish working class, which only furthers the interest of the Irish ruling class?
.

Most left wing working class people in Ireland dont believe that the two men delievering Pizzas were particularly upholding British Imperialism. Good luck persuading them.

[costello1977]

And my point would still be fundamentally the same you dont know what you are talking about. But to get back on track the article posted is from the 32CSM not the IRA.

I was about to say, it is actually an age old tactic of the British to undermine the progression of a Republican movement on a political agenda by continually derailing the topic with talk about the IRA and violence!

[fionntan]

I was about to say, it is actually an age old tactic of the British to undermine the progression of a Republican movement on a political agenda by continually derailing the topic with talk about the IRA and violence!


Yes and the IRA is derailed with talk of politics:lol:

[costello1977]

Most left wing working class people in Ireland dont believe that the two men delievering Pizzas were particularly upholding British Imperialism. Good luck persuading them.

Thats the problem, they've been fooled into believing they are not serving British Imperialism.

Lets look at it though. The delivery men were working for a bourgeoisie business man with a franchise from a foreign big business, namely Domino's Pizza. They were delivering Pizzas for payment, not much admittedly, to foreign Imperial soldiers, stationed in Ireland but on their way to uphold the illegal occupation of Afghanistan by British Imperialism.

It wouldn't have mattered where they were from. They were upholding the capitalist bourgeoisie interest of the Irish Ruling Class and globalisation.

[costello1977]

Yes and the IRA is derailed with talk of politics:lol:

That's them sticks and Irps though cara!:D

[Palingenisis]

Thats the problem, they've been fooled into believing they are not serving British Imperialism.

Lets look at it though. The delivery men were working for a bourgeoisie business man with a franchise from a foreign big business, namely Domino's Pizza. They were delivering Pizzas for payment, not much admittedly, to foreign Imperial soldiers, stationed in Ireland but on their way to uphold the illegal occupation of Afghanistan by British Imperialism.

It wouldn't have mattered where they were from. They were upholding the capitalist bourgeoisie interest of the Irish Ruling Class and globalisation.

Small Irish bosses in my experiance can be worse to work for than big foreign companies and lets face it a lot of people in the Republican movement have a place in their heart for small "native" capitalists. People working doing delieveries often end up delievering things to police stations does that put them on the same level as a tout? Does that make most delievery people class traitors?

[Tifosi]

Thats the problem, they've been fooled into believing they are not serving British Imperialism.

Lets look at it though. The delivery men were working for a bourgeoisie business man with a franchise from a foreign big business, namely Domino's Pizza. They were delivering Pizzas for payment, not much admittedly, to foreign Imperial soldiers, stationed in Ireland but on their way to uphold the illegal occupation of Afghanistan by British Imperialism.

It wouldn't have mattered where they were from. They were upholding the capitalist bourgeoisie interest of the Irish Ruling Class and globalisation.

So to combat a bourgeoisie business man you shoot the work force, yea, great plan.

[costello1977]

So to combat a bourgeoisie business man you shoot the work force, yea, great plan.

Im not saying that, I was saying they are upholding the imperialism.

Moreover, the IRA for years liberated cash from plenty of small business men. The problem for the IRA has always been that they have depended on a number of them for sustinance!

[costello1977]

Small Irish bosses in my experiance can be worse to work for than big foreign companies and lets face it a lot of people in the Republican movement have a place in their heart for small "native" capitalists. People working doing delieveries often end up delievering things to police stations does that put them on the same level as a tout? Does that make most delievery people class traitors?

As I said, i think it's less a soft spot, more a dependance on small capitalists, who have donated money before when it was needed.

The point is they didn't move when they were told to and got caught in the cross fire. I think it's a bit rich of the British media to be getting at this though, considering the amount of innocents they have killed over the past 8 years.

Looking at the stats for this year, the RUC/PSNI has injured more people than any Republican "violence", so why are you collectively, as socialists, not asking questions of the British Government on this forum?

[Saorsa]

Lets look at it though. The delivery men were working for a bourgeoisie business man with a franchise from a foreign big business, namely Domino's Pizza. They were delivering Pizzas for payment, not much admittedly, to foreign Imperial soldiers, stationed in Ireland but on their way to uphold the illegal occupation of Afghanistan by British Imperialism.

It wouldn't have mattered where they were from. They were upholding the capitalist bourgeoisie interest of the Irish Ruling Class and globalisation.

They were pizza delivery boys. They were told to a deliver a pizza by their boss. If they'd said no, they'd have been fire.d There was no mass public boycott campaign against the base, they weren't scabbing on anything... they were just trying to keep shitty job because it's better than being unemployed.

If they hadn't delivered those pizzas it wouldn't have taken the 6 counties even one step closer to being free. All that would have happened is the workers would have lost their jobs.

They were *not* collaborators, and it makes you sound like a dangerous psycho to argue they were.

[fionntan]

In the news over here a few weeks previous before the operation the IRA released a statement saying/telling civilians that the war was going to be being stepped up and not to be anywhere near police stations or British army installations. If people chose to ignore that warning then more fool them..

[costello1977]

They were pizza delivery boys. They were told to a deliver a pizza by their boss. If they'd said no, they'd have been fire.d There was no mass public boycott campaign against the base, they weren't scabbing on anything... they were just trying to keep shitty job because it's better than being unemployed.

If they hadn't delivered those pizzas it wouldn't have taken the 6 counties even one step closer to being free. All that would have happened is the workers would have lost their jobs.

They were *not* collaborators, and it makes you sound like a dangerous psycho to argue they were.

That would have been the start cara. That's what has to happen. The 32csm wants to undermine British Rule in Ireland.

Once again though, the British State has injured more people in Ireland this year, with plastic bullets alone, than the IRA. Are you going to denounce their violence?

They are still arresting and interning Republicans, are you going to denounce that?

They have caused massive social deprivation in Ireland, why are you not denouncing this?

[Palingenisis]

In the news over here a few weeks previous before the operation the IRA released a statement saying/telling civilians that the war was going to be being stepped up and not to be anywhere near police stations or British army installations. If people chose to ignore that warning then more fool them..

I remember when it happened my first reaction was two Brits dead before they could go over and terrorize the Afghans, great, that will show Gerry....However I called over to a friend of mine who is pro-Republican and socialist and he and his girl friend were completely freaked and disgusted over the delievary men getting shot. Alienating people is not a good idea and all this talk of them being collaborators makes it even worse.

[Palingenisis]

They are still arresting and interning Republicans, are you going to denounce that?

They have caused massive social deprivation in Ireland, why are you not denouncing this?

Where did he say anywhere that he supported the British occupation?

Im well aware of internment and just how many people are now in prison but premature armed adventurism isnt helping that problemn.

[Devrim]

The point is they didn't move when they were told to and got caught in the cross fire. I think it's a bit rich of the British media to be getting at this though, considering the amount of innocents they have killed over the past 8 years.

Looking at the stats for this year, the RUC/PSNI has injured more people than any Republican "violence", so why are you collectively, as socialists, not asking questions of the British Government on this forum?

Er... because they are not on here trying to present their anti-working class nationalism as socialism. Of course over the years the British state has promoted and enacted a policy of sectarianism and state terrorism in Northern Ireland. It goes without saying. That isn't the topic of this conversation though.

Devrim

[fionntan]

Where did he say anywhere that he supported the British occupation?

Im well aware of internment and just how many people are now in prison but premature armed adventurism isnt helping that problemn.


"Adventurism" :lol::lol:

[fionntan]

Devrim[/LEFT];1847426]Er... because they are not on here trying to present their anti-working class nationalism as socialism. Of course over the years the British state has promoted and enacted a policy of sectarianism and state terrorism in Northern Ireland. It goes without saying. That isn't the topic of this conversation though.

Devrim


"Northern Ireland" :thumbup1: You keep saying you lived here one question was it you or your father or mother that was stationed here??

[Reznov]

(Off topic but, when i read 32CSM is it weird that I thought of 32 Chaos Space Marines? lol, warhammer players will get this.)

[Tifosi]

In the news over here a few weeks previous before the operation the IRA released a statement saying/telling civilians that the war was going to be being stepped up and not to be anywhere near police stations or British army installations. If people chose to ignore that warning then more fool them..

Sorry but this is fucking shit, you do know that people have to walk/drive past cop shops to get to work, go to the shops, go see friends etc. It's not like they are planning to be their to see the fireworks go off. People shouldn't have to plan their lives around a group of mad guys with guns.

[fionntan]

Where did he say anywhere that he supported the British occupation?

Im well aware of internment and just how many people are now in prison but premature armed adventurism isnt helping that problemn.

Well, this thread is about the 32csm and the IRA was brought up for their actions, so why not bring up the Brits and hold them to account?

[Hoggy_RS]

I think if you want to know if the 32csm are socialists you only need to look at the fact that according to them pizza delivery men are prime targets in their deluded war. Some 32's have socialist views but these are not the views of the leadership.

[fionntan]

Sorry but this is fucking shit, you do know that people have to walk/drive past cop shops to get to work, go to the shops, go see friends etc. It's not like they are planning to be their to see the fireworks go off. People shouldn't have to plan their lives around a group of mad guys with guns.

I meant go near as in working in or on Barracks, not walking past it! You know that well enough, stop trying to sensationalise the point!

[Palingenisis]

"Adventurism" :lol::lol:

Yeah I cant spell....Fair enough.

But the fact is that Provo campaign which had a lot more support FAILED.

Outside of defensive actions what exactly is the point behind a very limited armed campaign now, what can it achieve outside of putting people in jail and possibly if things go wrong further alienating Republicanism from the wider community (particularly in the Free State)?

[Saorsa]

In the news over here a few weeks previous before the operation the IRA released a statement saying/telling civilians that the war was going to be being stepped up and not to be anywhere near police stations or British army installations. If people chose to ignore that warning then more fool them..

You really think every pizza delivery boy in the 6 counties saw that statement? You really think every delivery boy that went to a barracks did so in conscious defiance of the warning?

I don't condemn the attack on the barracks, and if you've read my posts on this site you know I support the struggle against the British occupation. What I'm questioning here is how you can honestly say that a pizza delivery boy who delivers to a barracks in a time of peace is a 'collaborator'.

Maybe if there was a major armed struggle going on. Maybe if there was a public boycott campaign. Maybe then you could call those guys collaborators... but now? Really?

[fionntan]

I think if you want to know if the 32csm are socialists you only need to look at the fact that according to them pizza delivery men are prime targets in their deluded war. Some 32's have socialist views but these are not the views of the leadership.

So what is the difference between the INLA campaign the IRSM supported to the current campaign? What has changed significantly enough for the IRSP to denounce the armed struggle they once thrived on?

[fionntan]

You really think every pizza delivery boy in the 6 counties saw that statement? You really think every delivery boy that went to a barracks did so in conscious defiance of the warning?

I don't condemn the attack on the barracks, and if you've read my posts on this site you know I support the struggle against the British occupation. What I'm questioning here is how you can honestly say that a pizza delivery boy who delivers to a barracks in a time of peace is a 'collaborator'.

Maybe if there was a major armed struggle going on. Maybe if there was a public boycott campaign. Maybe then you could call those guys collaborators... but now? Really?

Cara, there is no peace. The British are presenting this as a peaceful situation but it is far from it and has never been so.

[Saorsa]

"Northern Ireland" You keep saying you lived here one question was it you or your father or mother that was stationed here?

Devrim has shitty left-communist politics, but noone has the right to accuse him of being soft on imperialism or an imperialist collaborator. You're just slinging mud here in the hope it sticks - if you represent the average 32csm member then your organisation has serious issues.

[Palingenisis]

Cara, there is no peace. The British are presenting this as a peaceful situation but it is far from it and has never been so.

Belfast and Derry might not be London or Dublin but its hardly the same as the Troubles.

[fionntan]

Devrim has shitty left-communist politics, but noone has the right to accuse him of being soft on imperialism or an imperialist collaborator. You're just slinging mud here in the hope it sticks - if you represent the average 32csm member then your organisation has serious issues.

Let me assure you, I meant that in jest. Devrim, by ignoring the actions of the state and focussing on the revolutionaries makes his support for the British state implicit!

[Saorsa]

Cara, there is no peace. The British are presenting this as a peaceful situation but it is far from it and has never been so.

The oppressed nationalist communities of the 6 counties are not waging an armed struggle against the Brits. There have been a handful of minor substitutionist actions taken by the RIRA and the CIRA in the past few years, but these attacks have nothing in common with the struggle of the Provos and the INLA.

I'm not dismissing the courage, dedication and good intentions of most 32csm-style republicans. But if you can seriously call a pizza delivery guy a collaborator in this period... your politics have nothing to do with Marxism.

[Devrim]

You keep saying you lived here one question was it you or your father or mother that was stationed here??

Neither, and it isn't much of a political argument, is it?


"Northern Ireland" :thumbup1:

Yes, it is the name of the state, it is an international board where many people are not familiar with the Irish Republican phraseology, and people refusing to admit things doesn't make them not true.

Devrim

[fionntan]

Belfast and Derry might not be London or Dublin but its hardly the same as the Troubles.

Granted cara, but by that logic, 1981 was peaceful by the standards of 1971. It's not the scale of the offensive, it's the fact that there is resistance against British rule in Ireland, on any scale, makes the peace here a fallacy!

[Palingenisis]

So what is the difference between the INLA campaign the IRSM supported to the current campaign? What has changed significantly enough for the IRSP to denounce the armed struggle they once thrived on?

If you honestly believe that the same conditions exist in Ireland as they did in the 1970s you are seriously deluded.

[Saorsa]

No capitalist state is at peace. There is class war all over the planet. And in places like Ireland, there's a whole other dimension of national liberation to be fought for.

But that doesn't make a pizza delivery boy a 'collaborator'. Do you really think you'll build support amongst the Irish working class with that kind of rhetoric?

[fionntan]

The oppressed nationalist communities of the 6 counties are not waging an armed struggle against the Brits. There have been a handful of minor substitutionist actions taken by the RIRA and the CIRA in the past few years, but these attacks have nothing in common with the struggle of the Provos and the INLA.

I'm not dismissing the courage, dedication and good intentions of most 32csm-style republicans. But if you can seriously call a pizza delivery guy a collaborator in this period... your politics have nothing to do with Marxism.

This is slowly turning into an argument over semantics. Can we focus on the 32csm and the positive moves they have made over the past few years politically and not the IRA.

Can we focus on the 32csm, and,if you want to debate the IRA, start a thread about them?

[fionntan]

If you honestly believe that the same conditions exist in Ireland as they did in the 1970s you are seriously deluded.

The INLA fought the war in the 80's when those conditions weren't the same as in the 70's. Your argument is flawed.

[Saorsa]

This is slowly turning into an argument over semantics.

I disagree. I think we're discussing an important subject, the question of what defines collaboration and what an appropriate response to it is.

[Palingenisis]

Granted cara, but by that logic, 1981 was peaceful by the standards of 1971. It's not the scale of the offensive, it's the fact that there is resistance against British rule in Ireland, on any scale, makes the peace here a fallacy!

What about prudence? What about developing a stratergy that can actually deliever victory rather than just striking out blindly?

The overwhelming majiority of the Republican working class bought into the sectarian piosoned chalice of the GFA because they wanted the Troubles to stop.

[Palingenisis]

Devrim has shitty left-communist politics, but noone has the right to accuse him of being soft on imperialism or an imperialist collaborator. You're just slinging mud here in the hope it sticks - if you represent the average 32csm member then your organisation has serious issues.

The 32s are very mixed bunch...Some of them are really good....But when it involves guns they all go a bit mad.

[fionntan]

I disagree. I think we're discussing an important subject, the question of what defines collaboration and what an appropriate response to it is.

Granted, but not on a 32csm thread, do it on an IRA thread!

[fionntan]

What about prudence? What about developing a stratergy that can actually deliever victory rather than just striking out blindly?

The overwhelming majiority of the Republican working class bought into the sectarian piosoned chalice of the GFA because they wanted the Troubles to stop.

The working class were bought over for the peace and promises of better living conditions, which haven't materialised. The social and economic conditions which caused the struggle pre-1969 are still present in Belfast, Derry and most larger cities across the entire country!

[Palingenisis]

Granted, but not on a 32csm thread, do it on an IRA thread!

Uh....Who gives the speeches at your commemorations? Which set of prisoners are you involved in trying to support?

While they are two seperate organizations the 32 csm and the RIRA are part of the same movement and pretty much share the same mentality.

[fionntan]

Uh....Who gives the speeches at your commemorations? Which set of prisoners are you involved in trying to support?

While they are two seperate organizations the 32 csm and the RIRA are part of the same movement and pretty much share the same mentality.

Thats not the point and you know that, this is a diversionary tactic. The fact remains there is a political ideology that Republicanism bases itself in, and it's detractors are quite happy to use this tactic to undermine the Republican position. Let's sum it up.

Whilst there is British rule in Ireland, violence will continue!

[Hoggy_RS]

So what is the difference between the INLA campaign the IRSM supported to the current campaign? What has changed significantly enough for the IRSP to denounce the armed struggle they once thrived on?

well for one thing the INLA has been on ceasefire for 12 years and has decomissioned. The IRSM is open to change and has changed it direction in order to work towards its goals of a workers republic. The 32CSM is following the same failed path the provos did and are unable to see the lack of support for armed struggle amongst the working class.

the IRSM has adapted to the current conditions, the 32CSM continue to stubornly follow a failed path.

[fionntan]

well for one thing the INLA has been on ceasefire for 12 years and has decomissioned. The IRSM is open to change and has changed it direction in order to work towards its goals of a workers republic. The 32CSM is following the same failed path the provos did and are unable to see the lack of support for armed struggle amongst the working class.

the IRSM has adapted to the current conditions, the 32CSM continue to stubornly follow a failed path.

The IRSM will fail, as they have followed on do the same beaten track that the Provos, the Sticks, the Fianna Fail lot have all been led down. The fact is that the leaders of those movements are becoming very wealthy, despite never having worked even a day in their lifes.

Where do the Irps go now cara? Do they sit with the other socialists in bars and wistfully dream about their goals or do they enter into constitutional politics and then do exactly what all the others have done before?

You know, the only thing that hasn't been tried to see if it works is a British withdrawal!

[Palingenisis]

The working class were bought over for the peace and promises of better living conditions, which haven't materialised. The social and economic conditions which caused the struggle pre-1969 are still present in Belfast, Derry and most larger cities across the entire country!

It wasnt just those reasons that made so many people buy into the GFA...It was the fact that they wanted to breathe without the death squads, the RUC, so many people in prison and the BA....All things people would be willing to suffer if there was a CHANCE of it delievering victory.

[fionntan]

It wasnt just those reasons that made so many people buy into the GFA...It was the fact that they wanted to breathe without the death squads, the RUC, so many people in prison and the BA....All things people would be willing to suffer if there was a CHANCE of it delievering victory.


One glance at the GFA and you would have known that there was no victory. It was so long to put people off reading it and listen to the leaders say it was a victory.

Having lived my life in North Belfast, I remember Provos telling us of the new housing we were getting, which were still waiting on, and the end of social and economic deprivation, also never delivered on.

[Palingenisis]

The IRSM will fail, as they have followed on do the same beaten track that the Provos, the Sticks, the Fianna Fail lot have all been led down. The fact is that the leaders of those movements are becoming very wealthy, despite never having worked even a day in their lifes.

Where do the Irps go now cara? Do they sit with the other socialists in bars and wistfully dream about their goals or do they enter into constitutional politics and then do exactly what all the others have done before?

You know, the only thing that hasn't been tried to see if it works is a British withdrawal!

Republican Sinn Fein and the 32 csm have very little if any support in the Free State. Most people here believe that you are out and out psychoes. A lot of the PUL working class which dont have that much better conditions honestly that you are sectarian. Until those two facts change armed actions will not get anywhere. Indeed if something goes wrong with a bomb and a civilian gets killed it could make things a lot worse.

[Palingenisis]

One glance at the GFA and you would have known that there was no victory. It was so long to put people off reading it and listen to the leaders say it was a victory.

Having lived my life in North Belfast, I remember Provos telling us of the new housing we were getting, which were still waiting on, and the end of social and economic deprivation, also never delivered on.

The GFA is Imperialist and sectarian.

But the PSNI are nothing like the RUC and people arent been killed on a regular basis by death squads.

[fionntan]

Republican Sinn Fein and the 32 csm have very little if any support in the Free State. Most people here believe that you are out and out psychoes. A lot of the PUL working class which dont have that much better conditions honestly that you are sectarian. Until those two facts change armed actions will not get anywhere. Indeed if something goes wrong with a bomb and a civilian gets killed it could make things a lot worse.

Once again, all one sided. Why have you forgotten to mention the political work the 32csm has achieved all over Ireland? I think it suits your agenda to criticise the IRA instead of dealing with the facts.

[fionntan]

The GFA is Imperialist and sectarian.

But the PSNI are nothing like the RUC and people arent been killed on a regular basis by death squads.

Rubbish, they are the exact same force, working for the British government and they still intern and intimidate normal people all over Belfast. They are scum. Didn't you see their reactionary abuse of the people of Ardoyne on the 12th of July at their peaceful protest?

[Palingenisis]

Once again, all one sided. Why have you forgotten to mention the political work the 32csm has achieved all over Ireland? I think it suits your agenda to criticise the IRA instead of dealing with the facts.

What exactly is my agenda?

True the 32 csm does have very good activists but also you dont have a thought out political programme. Outside of supporting the RIRA and wanting an end to occupation there isnt that much political unity among you. This is a problemn in Ireland...Blind activisism of one sort or another that in the end gets nowhere because its not guided by understanding.

[Palingenisis]

Rubbish, they are the exact same force, working for the British government and they still intern and intimidate normal people all over Belfast. They are scum. Didn't you see their reactionary abuse of the people of Ardoyne on the 12th of July at their peaceful protest?

They are still the police force of an occupying capitalist state, they are still scum...But they are nothing like the RUC were.

[fionntan]

They are still the police force of an occupying capitalist state, they are still scum...But they are nothing like the RUC were.

Cara, take it from the people of Ardoyne, they are the same beast with a different monicker!

[Revy]

All good stuff to read that they are writing but I looked up this 32csm. They're IRA. I've stated how I feel about the IRA but I will say it again, the IRA are scumbags, who endorse murder of the working class. The pizza delivery thing is just the cherry on top on the bloody cake. They have killed and attacked so many people for allegedly being involved in drugs. Fuck the IRA, all of its wannabe splinters, I don't care for any of them. They are not allies of the working class, not in this universe. What kind of revolutionaries blow up the working class in bombings pretending that this is "revolution"? Omagh and other examples of their "solidarity".

These are not people who will unite Ireland, the working class, or anyone. Their "campaigns" have been utter failures. They are, in no uncertain terms, reactionaries, enemies, elements which must be cast aside in any revolutionary situation. They certainly won't be leading the Irish working class like they imagine themselves to be doing. Not if genuine revolutionaries have any say.

[Palingenisis]

All good stuff to read that they are writing but I looked up this 32csm. They're IRA. I've stated how I feel about the IRA but I will say it again, the IRA are scumbags, who endorse murder of the working class. The pizza delivery thing is just the cherry on top on the bloody cake. They have killed and attacked so many people for allegedly being involved in drugs. Fuck the IRA, all of its wannabe splinters, I don't care for any of them. They are not allies of the working class, not in this universe. What kind of revolutionaries blow up the working class in bombings pretending that this is "revolution"? Omagh and other examples of their "solidarity".

These are not people who will unite Ireland, the working class, or anyone. Their "campaigns" have been utter failures. They are, in no uncertain terms, reactionaries, enemies, elements which must be cast aside in any revolutionary situation. They certainly won't be leading the Irish working class like they imagine themselves to be doing. Not if genuine revolutionaries have any say.

And of course the flipside of people getting all carried away by guns is people who are freaked out by violence full stop. Its sad that so often the debate never gets beyond the IRA being bold knights in revolutionary shining armour versus the IRA being "murdering" scumbags :(.

[aty]

All good stuff to read that they are writing but I looked up this 32csm. They're IRA. I've stated how I feel about the IRA but I will say it again, the IRA are scumbags, who endorse murder of the working class. The pizza delivery thing is just the cherry on top on the bloody cake. They have killed and attacked so many people for allegedly being involved in drugs. Fuck the IRA, all of its wannabe splinters, I don't care for any of them. They are not allies of the working class, not in this universe. What kind of revolutionaries blow up the working class in bombings pretending that this is "revolution"? Omagh and other examples of their "solidarity".

These are not people who will unite Ireland, the working class, or anyone. Their "campaigns" have been utter failures. They are, in no uncertain terms, reactionaries, enemies, elements which must be cast aside in any revolutionary situation. They certainly won't be leading the Irish working class like they imagine themselves to be doing. Not if genuine revolutionaries have any say.
Bobby Sands, Ivor Bell and Brendan Hughes were more genuine revolutionaries than you will ever be and calling them reactionary enemies while sitting in the fucking US is to piss on all genuine revolutionaries.

Please, read something about irish republicanism before open your mouth.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Seeing as there appears to be a couple of 32CSM people on the forum - maybe you could explain this one -

According to 32CSM's policy document on policing, the 32 CSM is opposed to “the British constitutional status in Ireland and its use of policing to underpin that status” but instead calls for “the deployment of an international Police Force to secure and administer civic order under the auspice of the United Nations”. In other words, the 32 CSM wants to replace the PSNI with an imperialist police force, without any input from or democratic control by working class people in Northern Ireland.

A clarification would be appreciated.

[Leo]

So its anti-working class to shoot those who uphold the British Imperialism that subjugates the Irish working class, which only furthers the interest of the Irish ruling class?By... delivering pizzas. Wow, what a horrible thing to do, certainly those delivery men were furthering the interests of whatever bourgeoisie by delivering pizzas.


Maybe I don't grasp the subtle nature of socialismBeing a defender of workers being shot for being workers and doing their job, you certainly don't grasp the nature of socialism.


but some how I can't help but feel that there is an inherent contradiction in your position which is that you are trying to justify your opposition of a working class struggle A working class struggle of... shooting delivery men?

Yes, the working class struggles against pizza delivery men, the working class struggles by shooting pizza delivery men, the working class certain does not struggle against the actual bosses as workers.


Lets look at it though. The delivery men were working for a bourgeoisie business man with a franchise from a foreign big business, namely Domino's Pizza. Workers tend to work for a boss, you know. This is a part of the definition of being a worker, selling your labor to a boss.

Of course, I am sure to you it would have been very different if workers are working for a local, patriotic business rather than a foreign big business.


They were delivering Pizzas for payment, not much admittedly, to foreign Imperial soldiersPizza delivery man deliver pizzas to whoever orders pizzas. Its their job.

What a reactionary thing to do.

I myself am a waiter. What do you think I should do when a Turkish nationalist waiter comes into the pub I work in and orders a beer, should I refuse to serve? Break a glass in the fellas head? Naturally, I can't since I would be fired if I did that, so I need to serve the guy a beer because I need to have a job in order to keep living.


It wouldn't have mattered where they were from. They were upholding the capitalist bourgeoisie interest of the Irish Ruling Class and globalisation. By... delivering pizzas.

Seriously, I am utterly disgusted by all this. You are really showing the true colors of the organization you defend as well.

[Revy]

Bobby Sands, Ivor Bell and Brendan Hughes were more genuine revolutionaries than you will ever be and calling them reactionary enemies while sitting in the fucking US is to piss on all genuine revolutionaries.

Please, read something about irish republicanism before open your mouth.

How impressive, you have referred to my location. Apparently you have to be living in Ireland to have an opinion on it. That's good next time there is a debate about say, Nepal, I will yell at everyone for not being from Nepal and therefore their views are wrong. Conveniently your location is not listed.

The IRA is disgusting, they show how disgusting they are all the time. I read lots about their escapades in terrorizing communities with their anti-drug shit. It sounds all noble until you're the one being tarred and feathered, kneecapped, tortured and shot to death because you were allegedly involved in drugs, even if you are innocent of that. If I were living in Northern Ireland, the smart thing to do would be to purchase a gun so that when these sickos see you as their next victim, you could blow their brains out.

I have no need to respect anti-drug vigilante psychopaths. I don't see the connection between that crazy shit and the left.

[Palingenisis]

Bobby Sands, Ivor Bell and Brendan Hughes were more genuine revolutionaries than you will ever be and calling them reactionary enemies while sitting in the fucking US is to piss on all genuine revolutionaries.

Please, read something about irish republicanism before open your mouth.

What do you mean by a real revolutionary? Someone who actually wants to revolutionize society or someone who is good at shotting people?

Ivor Bell had very little if any politics beyond "Brits out!", he objected to funds going into political work because for him the Army was all that mattered to him and everybody else's role was basically to passively cheer them on. At the time the sidelining of his faction was seen as a victory by the left...Now that Adams has turned out to be such a scumbag its worrying that a lot of Republicans seems to be revising history and making the likes of Ivor Bell the "real revolutionary". He was no Joe Mc Cann.

[Palingenisis]

I have no need to respect anti-drug vigilante psychopaths. I don't see the connection between that crazy shit and the left.

Do you have any idea of what the heroin industry does to working class communities?

Working class communities in Dublin and elsewhere ASKED the Provos to sort out the heroin gangs because the state was more than happy to let them carry out their business. Than there is the fact that Loyalists earned their funds partly by selling drugs (and indeed had connections to figures in the Dublin crime scene such as Martin Cahill).

That said some of recent actions of Republican Action Against Drugs such as shooting someone for selling hash pipes have been mental and seem to be motivated by wanting to be seen to be doing something.

[Palingenisis]

The creation of a 32 County Socialist Republic
requires the participation of the working class. But not only the
working class. It also requires the full unity of the Republican
base.

What does this mean? Who else will participate in the creation of 32 county Socialist Republic? The amount of actual working farmers left in Ireland is so small that they dont count as a social force and everyone else has class interests opposed to socialism.

[Blackscare]

This thread and costello1977 are completely disgusting.

[costello1977]

This thread and costello1977 are completely disgusting.

How constructive this post is! Completely disgusting aye? Tell me this what are your sources for your belief structure about Ireland? Your information source is an anti-Irish pro-british media so of course they are going to call Irish Revolutionaries "the scum of the earth" and I hope you can live with yourself whilst you continue to support such a vile and denegrading occupation of Ireland by a foreign country.

As I said before, I don't condone the two pizza men getting shot, far from it. I was asked how it was justifiable and offered a justification, once again I don't condone it. I pointed out neither were killed and that they were told weeks before not to engage with the British forces of occupation because it would put their life in danger. The British media did not report this on a wide scale and they put these mens life at risk, their boss put their lives at risk. The IRA targetted and killed 2 soldiers, no one else.

Im going to list now several of the greatest socialist revolutionaries ever to have lived and because they have been hidden by the British media, no doubt you will have heard of very few.

Seamus Costello, Brendan Hughes, Peader O'Donnell, Ronnie Bunting, Noel Lyttle, Dominic McGlinchey, Bobby Sands, Patsy O'Hara, James Connolly, Miriam Daly, Joe McCann, Gino Gallagher, the list really could go on. These men were true socialist revolutionaries be they marxist or just plain socialists.

[costello1977]

What does this mean? Who else will participate in the creation of 32 county Socialist Republic? The amount of actual working farmers left in Ireland is so small that they dont count as a social force and everyone else has class interests opposed to socialism.

Thats very true. The ranchers bought up most of the land in the 20's and have continued to weed out the small farmers since. They are the reason, imo, that the 1921 treaty was signed in such a rushed fashion. They realised that they could replace the British ruling class and subjugate the Irish working class, and have contrived with the British imperialised since to do so.

To be honest, we could have a good conversation on the history of this period, but I feel it would be constantly derailed by anti-revolutionary semantics from uneducated psuedo-revolutionaries from without Ireland!

[Fietsketting]

So its anti-working class to shoot those who uphold the British Imperialism that subjugates the Irish working class, which only furthers the interest of the Irish ruling class?


What did the guy who brought pizza around do? Put the anchovies in the shape of a red hand? :rolleyes:

[costello1977]

What did the guy who brought pizza around do? Put the anchovies in the shape of a red hand? :rolleyes:

Aye, very good. They were told to get out of the way and didn't. Their fault.

And as for the fellas crying here about targetting the boss instead of the workers, youse would be crying just as hard if they had, need I remind you reactionary psuedo revolutionaries that they were targetting a barracks filled with British soldiers, about to get shipped to Afghanistan to commit war crimes against the working class there.

[Palingenisis]

Thats very true. The ranchers bought up most of the land in the 20's and have continued to weed out the small farmers since. They are the reason, imo, that the 1921 treaty was signed in such a rushed fashion. They realised that they could replace the British ruling class and subjugate the Irish working class, and have contrived with the British imperialised since to do so.


The country still had more than its share of small farmers in the 1950s though despite the ranchers grabbing up land in the 20s (much of which was a very dark time for Ireland as a whole). You have to remember that until the 1960s it was Fianna Fail policy to keep people on the land and even get them to return to it if possible. That was quietly dropped in the 1960s and basically the various goverments actually took on a lot of the programme for modernization laid out in Eoghan Harris's "Ireland's Industrial Revolution". This is very different country than it was in the 1960s in terms of its socio-economic make up.

[costello1977]

The country still had more than its share of small farmers in the 1950s though despite the ranchers grabbing up land in the 20s (much of which was a very dark time for Ireland as a whole). You have to remember that until the 1960s it was Fianna Fail policy to keep people on the land and even get them to return to it if possible. That was quietly dropped in the 1960s and basically the various goverments actually took on a lot of the programme for modernization laid out in Eoghan Harris's "Ireland's Industrial Revolution". This is very different country than it was in the 1960s in terms of its socio-economic make up.


I wouldn't put much faith in the analysis of that great self-publicist and group B leader. He is a bourgeoisie psuedo-republican. I am very aware of the agarian policy of the FF in the 60's because it was the Republican movement who stood against the push of workers back into the country to work for the ranchers. They were trying to put the workers back on the farms because they were running down the ship yards and shipping the labour to cheaper areas in third world countries.

I would agree cara, but do you really think that you are going to make these people give up the wealth they stole from the Irish?

With regards to world socialism, does anyone on this forum think that talking and waiting for revolution to happen is a strategy? Do you really think battering a few facists is going to make the world's workers stand up and over throw imperialism?

[Fietsketting]

Aye, very good. They were told to get out of the way and didn't. Their fault.



Just as heroic as C18, probely did it in the evening when the poor chap was driving by on his scooter making a living for wife and kids? And all that where there are plenty of targets for a revolutionairy like yourself!

Happens me all the time when i walk around town. Policestations, party offices, city council structures, army barracks but I always feel the rage against delivery guys with there counter revolutionairy pizza's, really.

[Palingenisis]

I wouldn't put much faith in the analysis of that great self-publicist and group B leader. He is a bourgeoisie psuedo-republican. I am very aware of the agarian policy of the FF in the 60's because it was the Republican movement who stood against the push of workers back into the country to work for the ranchers. They were trying to put the workers back on the farms because they were running down the ship yards and shipping the labour to cheaper areas in third world countries.


Harris is a scumbag but his suggestion to invite in multinationals and make it cosy for them as opposed to old Fianna Fail policy of being as self-reliant as possible was taken up by the ruling class aswell as other ones he made in the 70s. He is an important figure even though a sinister and pretty mad one. Are you from the six counties? We didnt have any shipyards as far as Im aware of down here. That was the majior reason behind partition...Keeping the industrial north for England ( of course sectarianism was cynically used in order to do that...Carson with his half Italian mammy and Dublin childhood didnt believe a word of his own waffle).

[costello1977]

Just as heroic as C18, probely did it in the evening when the poor chap was driving by on his scooter making a living for wife and kids? And all that where there are plenty of targets for a revolutionairy like yourself!

Happens me all the time when i walk around town. Policestations, party offices, city council structures, army barracks but I always feel the rage against delivery guys with there counter revolutionairy pizza's, really.

Considering that the attack took place at Masserene Barracks, a British Army barracks, in Ireland and that the revolutionaries walked around the barracks and tried to kill more and that the two soldiers killed were carrying weapons and that the pizza men weren't the target, you have just showed how ignorant and ill informed of the facts that you are.

[costello1977]

Harris is a scumbag but his suggestion to invite in multinationals and make it cosy for them as opposed to old Fianna Fail policy of being as self-reliant as possible was taken up by the ruling class aswell as other ones he made in the 70s. He is an important figure even though a sinister and pretty mad one. Are you from the six counties? We didnt have any shipyards as far as Im aware of down here. That was the majior reason behind partition...Keeping the industrial north for England ( of course sectarianism was cynically used in order to do that...Carson with his half Italian mammy and Dublin childhood didnt believe a word of his own waffle).

Great post cara, I am from the occupied North and as a result my only real knowledge politically of the south comes from the RTE and the Pheonix, so I will be a little sceptical :blushing:, but I can't argue against the fact that his policies have formed much of the current structure of the south, he is very much so seen as an important figure in the country, unfortunately.

I realise that the wasn't a shipyard down there but in the 50's 60's they were trying to destroy the ones up here, as you pointed out one of the major reasons for partition was the Belfast shipyard, which they then got rid of when a cheaper option came along.

[Palingenisis]

I wouldn't put much faith in the analysis of that great self-publicist and group B leader. He is a bourgeoisie psuedo-republican. I am very aware of the agarian policy of the FF in the 60's because it was the Republican movement who stood against the push of workers back into the country to work for the ranchers. They were trying to put the workers back on the farms because they were running down the ship yards and shipping the labour to cheaper areas in third world countries.

I would agree cara, but do you really think that you are going to make these people give up the wealth they stole from the Irish?

It wasnt as much a matter of pushing people back into the land to work for the ranchers. People were given incentives to buy their own farms. There was a whole idealogical dimension to it that saw Ireland as essentially rural, Roman Catholic and "pure" which has totally gone.

Which part of the Republican stood against it? Certainly I can imagine people like Roy Johnston doing so but definitely not those who later went on to form the Provisionals.

[Fietsketting]

Considering that the attack took place at Masserene Barracks, a British Army barracks, in Ireland and that the revolutionaries walked around the barracks and tried to kill more and that the two soldiers killed were carrying weapons and that the pizza men weren't the target, you have just showed how ignorant and ill informed of the facts that you are.

How hard can it be to see the difference between a delivery guy and a soldier? Plus, I don't need facts to be able to tell what a piece of nationalist shit you are. If you can't get it into your head that shooting a delivery guy is not the way forward you are more ignorant then a dodo.

That they shoot soldiers fine, but your defending killing off fellow workers for delivering pizza. Dumbass!

[costello1977]

It wasnt as much a matter of pushing people back into the land to work for the ranchers. People were given incentives to buy their own farms. There was a whole idealogical dimension to it that saw Ireland as essentially rural, Roman Catholic and "pure" which has totally gone.

Which part of the Republican stood against it? Certainly I can imagine people like Roy Johnston doing so but definitely not those who later went on to form the Provisionals.

No, it was Johnston and Goulding I think, merely because they were becoming more involved in social agitation and less in Republicanism. I was something I think that they were in favour of but stood against because they didn't want the church to be involved in the state. They were trying to break the country from the image of pure roman catholics in order to attract the protestants of the North to their positon, also the reason the sticks began to become tied in with the UVF in the 70's.

[costello1977]

How hard can it be to see the difference between a delivery guy and a soldier? Plus, I don't need facts to be able to tell what a piece of nationalist shit you are. If you can't get it into your head that shooting a delivery guy is not the way forward you are more ignorant then a dodo.

That they shoot soldiers fine, but your defending killing off fellow workers for delivering pizza. Dumbass!

Im not defending it, they weren't the target, Im just saying that it was a military operation and they got caught in the crossfire. Considering that neither were killed nor suffered seriously life threatening injuries i would say that the volunteers did not riddle them as has been suggested by various media outlets.

More to the point, I would begin to argue against your insult in bold, but I feel that considering you lack the facts of one of the most talked about incidents in the last ten years in Ireland, you will lack any relevant information to the converstaion at hand nor to the Irish question in general, stop trolling!

[Palingenisis]

No, it was Johnston and Goulding I think, merely because they were becoming more involved in social agitation and less in Republicanism. I was something I think that they were in favour of but stood against because they didn't want the church to be involved in the state. They were trying to break the country from the image of pure roman catholics in order to attract the protestants of the North to their positon, also the reason the sticks began to become tied in with the UVF in the 70's.

Its a real tragedy that Cathal Goulding got sucked into the economism of the likes of Harris.

How tied in with the UVF were the sticks in 70s? I know that they held talks with them but the Provisionals also did so...I know that Group B had a relationship with Loyalists in the 80s but that was because they had degenerated into a criminal gang by that stage.

Do you know anything about the split from the Sticks thats around at the moment called the Official Republican Movement?

[costello1977]

Its a real tragedy that Cathal Goulding got sucked into the economism of the likes of Harris.

How tied in with the UVF were the sticks in 70s? I know that they held talks with them but the Provisionals also did so...I know that Group B had a relationship with Loyalists in the 80s but that was because they had degenerated into a criminal gang by that stage.

Do you know anything about the split from the Sticks thats around at the moment called the Official Republican Movement?

Oh aye the super sticks? ORM are a bunch of super stalinists! Look for a book called the lost revolution about the entire history of the OIRA, worth every penny you'll pay for it mo chara.

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Revolution-Story-Official-Workers/dp/1844881202/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283090758&sr=8-1

Theres the UK version http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Revolution-Story-Official-Workers/dp/0141028459/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283090844&sr=8-1

[Palingenisis]

Oh aye the super sticks? ORM are a bunch of super stalinists! Look for a book called the lost revolution about the entire history of the OIRA, worth every penny you'll pay for it mo chara.


I read it when it came out....I must go over it again. Brillant and important book.

What do you mean by super-Stalinists? Are they full on anti-revisionists (as in rejecting the leadship of the USSR post Stalin)? What do they think of Mao?

[costello1977]

I read it when it came out....I must go over it again. Brillant and important book.

What do you mean by super-Stalinists? Are they full on anti-revisionists (as in rejecting the leadship of the USSR post Stalin)? What do they think of Mao?

From what I aware, they rejected the sticks because they wanted to do away with the OIRA altogether, as in standing down the criminality because they have forged extensive economic links with both China, via the super dollars scheme, and North Korea. A small number of sticks in Belfast, Newry and some in Dublin wanted to retain the OIRA seeing it as the vanguard of the movement and they at least have an office in Belfast. Don't think there is much animosity though and it wasn't over the fall of the USSR. I wouldn't be to up to date with their politics with regards to Mao.

[Palingenisis]

From what I aware, they rejected the sticks because they wanted to do away with the OIRA altogether, as in standing down the criminality because they have forged extensive economic links with both China, via the super dollars scheme, and North Korea. A small number of sticks in Belfast, Newry and some in Dublin wanted to retain the OIRA seeing it as the vanguard of the movement and they at least have an office in Belfast. Don't think there is much animosity though and it wasn't over the fall of the USSR. I wouldn't be to up to date with their politics with regards to Mao.

The thing is though that the ORM have decomissioned the weapons that they have but Sean Garland and his lads are holding on to theirs. I heard that even though its a break from the Sticks that they are mainly made up of people who werent actually members of the Workers Party but had been and left during the mess they became in the six counties during the 80s and would still be known locally as "sticks". They dont exist in Dublin.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I am still awaiting a comment on this if possible -


Seeing as there appears to be a couple of 32CSM people on the forum - maybe you could explain this one -

According to 32CSM's policy document on policing, the 32 CSM is opposed to “the British constitutional status in Ireland and its use of policing to underpin that status” but instead calls for “the deployment of an international Police Force to secure and administer civic order under the auspice of the United Nations”. In other words, the 32 CSM wants to replace the PSNI with an imperialist police force, without any input from or democratic control by working class people in Northern Ireland.

A clarification would be appreciated.

As for the Provos - the initial Provisional split from Sinn Fein was a right-wing split brought about by the opposition to the left moving republican movement from both the British and Irish establishments. Brian Hanly's book goes into detail of the nature of the split.

Provisional SF was a right-wing nationalist movement that was pushed to the left because of the social convulsions of the period and by the influx of Catholic working class youth into the IRA during internment and in the aftermath of bloody Sunday. Subsequently many of these volunteers developed a left-wing political outlook while in prison as a result of reading left-wing literature and engaging in political discussions. However, none of these individuals ever had a controlling influence on the political outlook of the PIRA and the leadership of that organisation always maintained a purely netionalist outlook.



Im going to list now several of the greatest socialist revolutionaries ever to have lived and because they have been hidden by the British media, no doubt you will have heard of very few.

Seamus Costello, Brendan Hughes, Peader O'Donnell, Ronnie Bunting, Noel Lyttle, Dominic McGlinchey, Bobby Sands, Patsy O'Hara, James Connolly, Miriam Daly, Joe McCann, Gino Gallagher, the list really could go on. These men were true socialist revolutionaries be they marxist or just plain socialists.
I am afraid there is a serious need to differentiate this list -

James Connolly never - not once - engaged in acts of individual terror or urban guerillaism like the members of the various recent republican paramilitary groups above - all of whom engaged in urban guerillaism - a method of struggle that is an anathema to Marxism and socialism.

Peadar O'Donnell should also be placed on a different list - he did engage in guerilla action during the War of Independence - but his political outlook evolved. He attempted to push the IRA to the left, trying to get it to participate in supporting workers in struggle rather than engaging in guerillaism. He failed and subsequently left to form the left-wing Republican Congress which enjoyed a certain level of support in Catholic and Protestant working class areas - North and South - including on the Shankill Road.

A final word about Joe McCann - the potential existed for him to develop in a Marxist direction. He had good instincts and unfortunately his death cut short his political development. However, it is most likely that he would have split from the OIRA along with Costello and gone down the individual terror route.

The rest were all paramilitaries who were actively involved in a campaign of individual terror and sectarianism to varying degrees. Several were killed as a result of republican feuds and all are now dead (and from paramilitary activity with the exception of one - Brendan Hughes, who was actively questioning republican strategies at the time of his death). None had anything in common with the political outlook, political actions or political ideals of James Connolly.

By the way - Miriam Daly was a woman.

[Revy]

Do you have any idea of what the heroin industry does to working class communities?

Working class communities in Dublin and elsewhere ASKED the Provos to sort out the heroin gangs because the state was more than happy to let them carry out their business. Than there is the fact that Loyalists earned their funds partly by selling drugs (and indeed had connections to figures in the Dublin crime scene such as Martin Cahill).

That said some of recent actions of Republican Action Against Drugs such as shooting someone for selling hash pipes have been mental and seem to be motivated by wanting to be seen to be doing something.

Save me the crocodile tears about drugs and heroin and what the heroin "industry" does to "communities". That's what these sickos do, they ride on the coattails of "communities" in order to act like serial killing sickos. That's what vigilantism is, often brutally punishing the innocent who happen to be accused of something. You can look at vigilantism in US history and see how it was often racist. I bet the IRA is probably not that far away from racism being the "hardcore" nationalists they are.

But I guess maybe Jack the Ripper was a true revolutionary, for killing the prostitutes after all, look what prostitution does to working class communities. *insert crocodile tears here*

[Soldier of life]

The IRSM will fail, as they have followed on do the same beaten track that the Provos, the Sticks, the Fianna Fail lot have all been led down. The fact is that the leaders of those movements are becoming very wealthy, despite never having worked even a day in their lifes.

Where do the Irps go now cara? Do they sit with the other socialists in bars and wistfully dream about their goals or do they enter into constitutional politics and then do exactly what all the others have done before?

You know, the only thing that hasn't been tried to see if it works is a British withdrawal!

This is an overly-simplistic schoolboy analysis.

The INLA decision bears no resemblence to the Provos, the Sticks or Fianna Fail.

You are comparing a tactical decision in relation to the tangible prosecution of an ideology to the altering of ideology completely, which led to a change in tact. And the sticks comparison is just bizarre, sure the sticks still haven't decomissioned.

The provos changed their political position completely. They didnt just decom, they accepted NI as a legitimate political entity, supported the removal of articles 2 and 3 of the free state constitution and fully signed up to the unionist veto, all of which represented a seismic shift from a republican position to a constitutional nationalist one. The sticks also altered their position, believing armed action was illegitimate because it divided workers. These positions are nowhere close to that of the IRSP, and certainly nowhere near Fianna Fail.

The INLA made a tactical decision that runs parallel with marxist ideology, that socialism must be built by the masses, and national liberation must be achieved by them also. The INLA do not condemn armed action, they just re-evaluated it's strategic value at this point and in their decision sought to place the emphasis where it always should have been, with mobilising workers to take part in the struggle. The IRSP''s ideology and politics remains unchanged. It rejects the PSNI, the GFA, the unionist veto etc

Tell me how is this in any way comparable to the examples you gave?