An honest question

[727Goon]

Alright let me start out by saying I dont know shit about transsexuals or the gay community in general, so please dont get offended by any of my questions. I have heard people talk on here about pre op trans people getting "Sir'ed" and how they take it as a personal insult. Now obviously referring to someone by something they dont want to be called is insulting, but if someone looks like a man I think most people are going to automatically assume that they consider themselves a man. I dont really understand why pre-op trans people are insulted by being "Sir'ed" I think most people dont really know what to call them or dont automatically assume that they are trans, but I guess theres something I'm not getting. I also read somewhere that a pre-op trans was offended that a doctor wrote their gender as Male. I feel like this is a bit over the top, I consider gender to be something that is biological and concrete, if you want to identify as something you biologically arent thats fine and I respect that, but I think in the biological sense if you are pre-op you are still technically the gender you were born. Is this a bigoted opinion?

[Ele'ill]

Alright let me start out by saying I dont know shit about transsexuals or the gay community in general, so please dont get offended by any of my questions. I have heard people talk on here about pre op trans people getting "Sir'ed" and how they take it as a personal insult. Now obviously referring to someone by something they dont want to be called is insulting, but if someone looks like a man I think most people are going to automatically assume that they consider themselves a man. I dont really understand why pre-op trans people are insulted by being "Sir'ed" I think most people dont really know what to call them or dont automatically assume that they are trans, but I guess theres something I'm not getting. I also read somewhere that a pre-op trans was offended that a doctor wrote their gender as Male. I feel like this is a bit over the top, I consider gender to be something that is biological and concrete, if you want to identify as something you biologically arent thats fine and I respect that, but I think in the biological sense if you are pre-op you are still technically the gender you were born. Is this a bigoted opinion?

The issue becomes what makes a male a male and a female a female. Is it physical or is it 'spirit' or 'soul'? Is it a 'want'?

[727Goon]

The issue becomes what makes a male a male and a female a female. Is it physical or is it 'spirit' or 'soul'? Is it a 'want'?

I think it's both. But if you are physically one gender I think its a bit much to be insulted when people you dont refer to you as that gender, but I feel like I'm missing something.

[Ele'ill]

I think it's both. But if you are physically one gender I think its a bit much to be insulted when people you dont refer to you as that gender, but I feel like I'm missing something.


If a man walks up to you and says 'hi how are you? Welcome to the first day on the job' and shakes your hand and you say 'thanks sir' and 'he' becomes offended I think it's a bit much in regards to your guilt.

If it's known that the person is easily offended then perhaps there's no need to indicate gender in a greeting?

Maybe there isn't any need to mention gender in a greeting anyways.

[counterblast]

Alright let me start out by saying I dont know shit about transsexuals or the gay community in general, so please dont get offended by any of my questions. I have heard people talk on here about pre op trans people getting "Sir'ed" and how they take it as a personal insult. Now obviously referring to someone by something they dont want to be called is insulting, but if someone looks like a man I think most people are going to automatically assume that they consider themselves a man. I dont really understand why pre-op trans people are insulted by being "Sir'ed" I think most people dont really know what to call them or dont automatically assume that they are trans, but I guess theres something I'm not getting. I also read somewhere that a pre-op trans was offended that a doctor wrote their gender as Male. I feel like this is a bit over the top, I consider gender to be something that is biological and concrete, if you want to identify as something you biologically arent thats fine and I respect that, but I think in the biological sense if you are pre-op you are still technically the gender you were born. Is this a bigoted opinion?

First, what does looking "like a man" even mean? I'm really interested to know.

And secondly, why are trans women expected to meet standards I am not?

Would you say that I, a cisgendered woman, was "less of a woman" if I had a flat chest, facial hair, short hair and other characteristics typical of cisgendered men?

If it gender really comes down to someones genitalia to you, then how is this question even relevant in a day to day interaction? Isn't your entire basis of gender really just one big assumption anyway (assuming you haven't seen everyone you interact with naked)?

Another hypothetical;

If a trans woman gets surgery (bottom surgery), but otherwise keeps her behavior the same (she doesn't take estrogen, she still wears football jerseys, she has a full beard, and she talks in a "deep" voice; does this make her less of a woman?

I don't think that its unreasonable to not assume the gender of those around you, just like it isn't unreasonable to not assume the ethnicity of those around you.

[Quail]

I watched a documentary a while ago, which fucked me off because the jurnalist kept using the wrong pronouns. I hate it when people use the wrong pronouns because that is so fucking insulting.

Edit: Drunk posting is baaaad.

[727Goon]

First, what does looking "like a man" even mean? I'm really interested to know.

And secondly, why are trans women expected to meet standards I am not?

Would you say that I, a cisgendered woman, was "less of a woman" if I had a flat chest, facial hair, short hair and other characteristics typical of cisgendered men?

If it gender really comes down to someones genitalia to you, then how is this question even relevant in a day to day interaction? Isn't your entire basis of gender really just one big assumption anyway (assuming you haven't seen everyone you interact with naked)?

Another hypothetical;

If a trans woman gets surgery (bottom surgery), but otherwise keeps her behavior the same (she doesn't take estrogen, she still wears football jerseys, she has a full beard, and she talks in a "deep" voice; does this make her less of a woman?

I don't think that its unreasonable to not assume the gender of those around you, just like it isn't unreasonable to not assume the ethnicity of those around you.

Men generally are taller and have broader shoulders than women, facial hair, and I guess a more "male" face, I dont know how to describe that. I think its a bit much to get offended if you are pre op to assume that complete strangers will know that you're trans. I think most people do assume the gender of the people they encounter in day to day situations, if someone refers to you as the gender you dont identify with as an honest mistake I dont see the point in getting offended, obviously if you correct them and they keep calling you that its different.

[counterblast]

Men generally are taller and have broader shoulders than women, facial hair, and I guess a more "male" face, I dont know how to describe that. I think its a bit much to get offended if you are pre op to assume that complete strangers will know that you're trans. I think most people do assume the gender of the people they encounter in day to day situations, if someone refers to you as the gender you dont identify with as an honest mistake I dont see the point in getting offended, obviously if you correct them and they keep calling you that its different.


You're using general statements, to describe something you claim is absolute. What you're really saying is "there is no universal way to be a man".

Which makes it curious why one must undergo surgery to become a "real" woman.

People make assumptions about a lot of things. Sometimes I immediately assume some one is queer based on their mannerisms which are typically associated with queerness. But I never act on that assumption as though it is fact.

[727Goon]

I think to physically be a woman you need to get surgery if you were born a man. But if you identify as a woman than that's fine, but it's a little much to assume complete strangers will know that you identify as a woman rather than a man and I think theres no reason to take an honest mistake as an insult.

[Revy]

We can fret about gender definitions or accept that there are differences between people and that these are not something to care about. That they should be respected as who they are instead of a definition people want to shove down their throat. I don't think that it matters if you have matching genitalia. If we can't see it, it really is none of our business what genitals they have. They are who they are.

Trans people have every right to correct people. Honest mistake or not. Everyone else doesn't like to be called "she" if they're a man, or "he" if they're a woman. Why would it be different for trans people?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Alright let me start out by saying I dont know shit about transsexuals or the gay community in general, so please dont get offended by any of my questions.
Why do people always try to lump us in with the gay community? Sure LGBT includes us in the T part, but we don't really fall under the "gay" part.
However, I'll try not to get offended but I will correct you and answer your questions as they come up with full honesty...


I have heard people talk on here about pre op trans people getting "Sir'ed" and how they take it as a personal insult. Now obviously referring to someone by something they dont want to be called is insulting, but if someone looks like a man I think most people are going to automatically assume that they consider themselves a man.
If you assume you make an ass out of u and me. You can make an ass out of yourself all you want, but I want to make my own destiny.


I dont really understand why pre-op trans people are insulted by being "Sir'ed" I think most people dont really know what to call them or dont automatically assume that they are trans, but I guess theres something I'm not getting.
I am pre-op. I am very blatantly presented as a woman full time, and I'm on my hrt. If someone sirs me, they are doing it intentionally to piss me off. I usually don't get read as trans, as I am that passable, but on the rare occasion that I get read it is still pretty obvious I identify as a woman. Therefore, they are intentionally trying to insult me.
Btw, penis does not equal male and vagina does not equal female.


I also read somewhere that a pre-op trans was offended that a doctor wrote their gender as Male. I feel like this is a bit over the top, I consider gender to be something that is biological and concrete, if you want to identify as something you biologically arent thats fine and I respect that, but I think in the biological sense if you are pre-op you are still technically the gender you were born. Is this a bigoted opinion?

I read the same article. She had an ID card that said F (stands for Female) as she had gotten her gender marker changed and was legally female. They also called her a transvestite, which was offensive.
I was literally born female, I was born into a male body (though I have reason to suspect something different there and need to get an MRI of my lower torso, but that is a different discussion.) I am internally female and spent the first two decades of my life hating my life and hating my body. I knew from an early age.
I'd say the opinion is bigoted but in your case most likely purely out of ignorance. You seem to just be confused.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Men generally are taller
Many ciswomen are taller than me.


and have broader shoulders than women,
most ciswomen I have met have shoulders that are as broad or more broad than mine.


facial hair,
So what you are saying is that a pre-pubescent boy is more of a woman that a woman going through menopause?


and I guess a more "male" face,
Really? I have none of the hard features and they are not going to set in which reminds me that I need to take my spironolactone and my estrogen.


I dont know how to describe that. I think its a bit much to get offended if you are pre op to assume that complete strangers will know that you're trans. I think most people do assume the gender of the people they encounter in day to day situations, if someone refers to you as the gender you dont identify with as an honest mistake I dont see the point in getting offended, obviously if you correct them and they keep calling you that its different.
See above responses...

[Hiratsuka]

This has already become a witch hunt. For the sake of not derailing this thread, let's just say that genetically men have XY chromosomes and women have XX. Clearly there is a tendency for humans to be born either "male" or "female." We could be more inclusive by saying anyone with a Y chromosome is genetically male.

And no, it's not rude to mistake someone to be cis-gendered. But to insist after it's pointed out that they prefer to be called a certain thing is rude.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

This has already become a witch hunt. For the sake of not derailing this thread, let's just say that genetically men have XY chromosomes and women have XX. Clearly there is a tendency for humans to be born either "male" or "female." We could be more inclusive by saying anyone with a Y chromosome is genetically male.

And no, it's not rude to mistake someone to be cis-gendered. But to insist after it's pointed out that they prefer to be called a certain thing is rude.
How is this a witch hunt? I did not accuse anyone of anything.

there is also xxy.

Which is another type of intersex

[Hiratsuka]

How is this a witch hunt? I did not accuse anyone of anything.

there is also xxy.

Which is another type of intersex

Not you, Counterblast, but she has a tendency to do that anyway.

[Tablo]

Gender is based on how an individual feels. Like it is what they feel they are. I myself reject a gender label as I feel neither male or female in gender.

A person's sex, I believe, is generally determined by the individuals sexual organs. It might be defined based on DNA, but what is in the DNA is normally physically observable(the exception being post-op).

To get to my main point, I do not get offended when I am referred to as a male despite the fact I reject giving myself a gender identity. I don't think people should get all offended by it either. It should be enough for the individual to politely correct the person. We should all respect a person's preferred identity. Of course there are assholes who like to harrass people for their identity being different than their phycal sex. In these such cases there is no need to deal with these assholes politely.

If anyone feels anything I said is incorrect or offensive then please let me know either in this thread or via PM since this is a topic I have never deeply explored beyond trying to figure out my own identity.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Not you, Counterblast, but she has a tendency to do that anyway.
Really? I think Counterblast is being quite civil, especially in this thread.

[leftace53]

Not you, Counterblast, but she has a tendency to do that anyway.
Wait till Iseul gets here!

I never understood the particular "taking offense" to something that just isn't true. If someone called me a man, I can't imagine that I'd take offense, as much as I'd just say it isn't true. Same with a transgender, calling an MtF "sir" just isn't true. But it is understandable to get irritated about it because of the many forms of discrimination transgenders face anyways.

I just call people whatever they want to be called, how does it even remotely benefit me to call someone the wrong pronoun purposefully.

[GreenCommunism]

if someone refers to you as the gender you dont identify with as an honest mistake I dont see the point in getting offended, obviously if you correct them and they keep calling you that its different.

i do strive for a society which all members are considered androgyne, but in the meantime i think this is a giant step forward.


I am pre-op. I am very blatantly presented as a woman full time, and I'm on my hrt. If someone sirs me, they are doing it intentionally to piss me off. I usually don't get read as trans, as I am that passable, but on the rare occasion that I get read it is still pretty obvious I identify as a woman. Therefore, they are intentionally trying to insult me.
Btw, penis does not equal male and vagina does not equal female.

surely you can understand that in our homophobic society male do not like to be called female and vice versa. it has something to do with supposedly not being a 'real' male or in fact not conforming to the ideals of patriarchy. while for woman it is mostly about being unattractive. i am not sure it is homophobia or transphobia since homophobia has more to do with being an imperfect member of a gender ,or being a member of a gender acting as if he was the opposite gender.

i personally remember being called a woman when i was young and was kinda pissed about it, i was not a communist or anything like, for years as a communist i didn't understand transexuality but revleft showed me the light that they truly deserve to be protected like homosexuality, in fact i would like their protection to be the same.

in some way i feel that you ascribe to some idea that men and woman are different, but i wonder in what manner, do you mean culture or behavior caused by biology?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

surely you can understand that in our homophobic society male do not like to be called female and vice versa. it has something to do with supposedly not being a 'real' male or in fact not conforming to the ideals of patriarchy. while for woman it is mostly about being unattractive. i am not sure it is homophobia or transphobia since homophobia has more to do with being an imperfect member of a gender ,or being a member of a gender acting as if he was the opposite gender.

i personally remember being called a woman when i was young and was kinda pissed about it, i was not a communist or anything like, for years as a communist i didn't understand transexuality but revleft showed me the light that they truly deserve to be protected like homosexuality, in fact i would like their protection to be the same.

in some way i feel that you ascribe to some idea that men and woman are different, but i wonder in what manner, do you mean culture or behavior caused by biology?
I am having trouble understanding your posts. Are you drunk?

[GreenCommunism]

i'm just french ;) .

well sorry, mostly i was saying that being called a man when you are a woman in this society is insulting, so i was comparing that to my experience as a kid when i had no beard since i look very young in facial structure.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

i'm just french ;) .

well sorry, mostly i was saying that being called a man when you are a woman in this society is insulting, so i was comparing that to my experience as a kid when i had no beard since i look very young in facial structure.
Oh, I get it now.