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Soviet dude
27th August 2010, 03:43
Just found this. Seems pretty interesting, in light of previous expulsions (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=139791&highlight=expulsion). I know a guy that used to be involved with the NYC ISO, but stopped, because of basically what he considered an anti-worker sentiment in the organization.

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This is Just to Say


by Donna Chidi (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=431574) on Thursday, August 26, 2010 at 5:19pm

I sent this to you because I have enjoyed working with you in the ISO over the years or you knew how dedicated I was to my work with the ISO and deserve to know what happened with it.

This is just to say that I am no longer a member of the International Socialist Organization (ISO) and did not leave on good terms by any standard. This is also to say that I am still a committed socialist activist and will not allow my negative experiences in the ISO taint my view of revolutionary politics or the amazing activists I met.

If you've got ideas or social justice struggles you're involved in and want to collaborate, then get in touch.

My story is divided into three chronological parts:


Stifling debate about diversity in NYC ISO
Mass expulsion and membership exodus on not-so-good terms in DC ISO - resulting in a 90% white branch in a 54% black city (Oh no, she didn't!)
Getting back to fighting capitalism - LET'S GET ON WITH IT

Appendix: The Full Response

I. Stifling debate about diversity in the NYC ISO
During the convention period in March 2010, three immigrant ISO members of color submitted a document calling for opening up a dialogue about recruiting and retaining members of color. Although I favored many of the ideas and issues raised in the document, the response to it was so hostile that I could not muster up the courage to speak up in defense of the ideas contained within it. It was clear that the leadership had taken a strong position, as quoted below, and any attempts to raise a different perspective would be shut-down without consideration.

Here is a quote from it, but the full four-page response is attached at the bottom in the Appendix:

“…In fact, the term “diversity” is itself a liberal term that sees combining as many different kinds of experiences and backgrounds as possible as an end in of itself, rather than a means to lead the working class to victory over exploitation and oppression.

The identity politics framework of the document is exposed when the document’s authors argue: “We do believe that comrades of color provide an important link between their communities and revolutionary Marxism.” This both assumes that Marxism is foreign to the fight against racism (and therefore requires special conduits) and that there are such things as “communities” based on racial identity. In fact, any racial or ethnic group is broken down into its various class components. Working class Blacks are no more a part of Barack Obama’s “community” as working class women are part of Hilary Clinton’s or gays a part of Barney Frank’s….”

-H.T. on behalf of the NYC District Committee in Response to “Recruiting, Developing, and Retaining Members of Color in the ISO”

The harsh and hostile response effectively shut down discussion – though the main point of “Recruiting, Developing, and Retaining Members of Color in the ISO” was to start such a conversation. As a comrade of color, I identified with the ideas presented in the document about paying special attention to developing members of color as leaders. It’s difficult to develop a person’s skills if you don’t know what their skills are or anything about them for that matter. So although the long-term leaders of the NYC ISO might have intended to train and develop me as a comrade, those intentions remained intentions as I was ignored for the most part and none of them ever initiated conversation with me. Since the call for open discussion about these issues was so harshly shut down, I got the message that I’d better keep my ideas to myself as these issues were not of concern to our leaders.

II. Expulsions and membership exodus on not-so-good terms in DC ISO - resulting in a 90% white branch in a 54% black city
After the Socialism conference in June 2010, a group of people from the DC branch got together to discuss ideas they had to improve upon the work of the branch and decided to put all their thoughts together in a Perspectives document to be presented to the entire branch during the political perspectives discussion/kick off to organizing for the remainder of the summer. Recognizing similar problems, such as stifling debate and democracy (see above), I signed on in support of the document.

However, before the Perspectives meeting was to take place, the leaders of the branch called an “Emergency Meeting” for the Monday evening before, in which we would discuss some important issues in our branch and which Ahmed Shawki of the national steering committee would attend and convene.

At this Emergency meeting, Shawki described reasons why the national steering committee had voted to expel Zach Mason and indefinitely suspend David Thurston of the DC branch, whom he met with and delivered the news that afternoon. Now, 5 hours later, they were not welcome to this “members only” meeting where the issue of their expulsions would be discussed by everyone else. In that meeting in June, now my last ISO meeting, I commented on how sad it was to see socialists stand up and slander and crucify people they had worked with for 14 years and 7 years respectively without even allowing them to attend and defend themselves.

Among several other hostile comments made in my direction because of this, Shawki closed the discussion by inviting me to leave the ISO, although he has never spoken to me before, “If you think these guys are being crucified, then maybe this organization is not the right organization for you.”

Here is the e-mail exchange that then occurred between myself, Michele Bollinger – the acting convener of the branch, and Ahmed Shawki of the national steering committee.
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show details Jul 2

Michele Bollinger to me

Donna,

We would like to meet with you as soon as possible about the status of your membership in the DC branch. Please email back with some dates and time that you are available.

Thanks,
Michele


show details Jul 4
Donna to Michele

Hi Michele,
I believe it was made undeniably clear in the last meeting that I attended that I am not welcome in the DC ISO branch - especially in the comments made by comrades Dave Zirin, Mike Stark, and Ahmed Shawki. Therefore, I am not sure what we would be discussing in particular. If you still need to meet with me, I'm available on Tuesday evening after 6pm.

-Donna


show details Jul 5
Michele Bollinger to Ahmed, me
Hi Donna,

Fair enough, then. I'll take you off the listserve. Any other questions, best to contact Ahmed.

Thanks,
Michele


show details Jul 6
Donna Ugboaja to Michele

Can I have Ahmed's contact info, just in case questions do come up in the coming weeks?

Thanks


show details Jul 6

Michele Bollinger to me

Sure – xxxxxx{Email address}



show details Jul 12
Donna to ashawki
Hi Ahmed,
I've been struggling with finding the words to describe to my NY comrades, what the status of my membership in the ISO is. Evidently, I am no longer a member but I did not resign. Michele Bollinger deferred to you on this question (see messages below) so specifics would be greatly appreciated.

The concerns I need for you to address are: 1) Is there an appeals process for me and 2) How do I explain my membership status to my NY comrades?

Thanks.
Donna


show details Jul 19
Donna to ashawki

Hi Ahmed,
I sent the message below to you last week and am still awaiting your response. It'd be much appreciated.

-Donna


show details Jul 21
Ahmed Shawki to me

Hello Donna:

It is my understanding from the email exchange below that you are no longer a member of the ISO. I base this on what you said in your email of July 4, explaining your decision not to meet with the DC branch committee to discuss your membership status.

So to answer your two questions: 1) I don’t know what you would be appealing and to whom 2) You can circulate this email exchange to comrades in New York to help explain what has taken place. Feel free to have any NYC comrades to email or call me to discuss these issues.


Best. Ahmed



show details Jul 27
Donna Ugboaja to Michele, Ahmed

Hi Ahmed,
I'll use the email exchange then, to describe my membership status. However, I must make the correction that I did not decide NOT to meet with the DC branch committee and offered a date and time that I was available to meet. I only intended in that message to Michele to find out what, said meeting would be about. No one has yet refuted the statement that I am not welcome in the ISO, even though I did nothing wrong by speaking up in that fateful meeting, but somehow I was taken off the listserve before I had a chance to read the email or even think about my membership. As for the Appeals process, obviously, I got the not-so-subtle message that you sent about me leaving the organization and would be a fool to try to claw my way into a group where I am not wanted.

I dedicated the first four years of my adulthood to organizing with the ISO in college in Ithaca, NY and also in New York City and made many personal sacrifices for the sake of my branch in Ithaca. After all that hardwork, including working in a fraction of two people to bring two busloads & carpools of people to the National Equality March last year, you can imagine how I'm feeling very short-changed here.

This terse response you've given to this matter is hardly fitting for the situation and is somewhat dismissive. In my time in the ISO, I saw many new people come and go, but never on such bad terms as the atmosphere in that aforementioned meeting. You said in that meeting "better be friends in the movement, than to be enemies internally," but in order for that to happen, people have to separate on good terms. Nothing about this email exchange implies that you or Michele care about any good terms or amicable relations between myself and the ISO.

However, I will not allow this negative experience color my perceptions of the amazing activists and fighters that I have met in the ISO over the years. This has been a very difficult experience for me and I have taken away important life lessons from it. Hopefully, you all have also learned something from all this as well.

Again, a response would be greatly appreciated.

-Donna


****To date, 8/26/10 no response****

Clearly, I was pushed out/expelled/whatever without a fair process and although it was my intention to resign, I thought I reserved the right to do that myself. In response to that hostile “Emergency meeting,” 6 others resigned from the DC ISO, not including myself. So in total 9 people left the ISO voluntarily and involuntarily as a result of the happenings that day and a realization of the depth of lack of democracy in the ISO.

Most disturbing about the mass-resignations is the complacency of the DC and National ISO leadership to losing a majority of their members of color without regard – almost willingly. They knowingly made the choice to push us out in order to keep the group free of dissenters and people who ask questions – even though it resulted in a much smaller group with a ghastly 90% white majority in a 54% black city, also known as Chocolate City. This may not have been the intention, but actions speak louder than words and over and over again the actions of the leadership ISO say that internal democracy is conditional.


Those of us who left, together with some others, are participating in social justice struggles around DC and are looking to link up with other socialists and activists who want to fight for a better world without tearing each other down along the way.

III. Getting back to fighting capitalism - LET'S GET ON WITH IT
If you've got ideas or social justice struggles you're involved in and want to collaborate, then get in touch – especially if you’re in the Washington DC area.

------------------------------------------------ ~FIN~ ------------------------------


Appendix – The Full Response

“Response to “Recruiting, Developing, and Retaining Members of Color in the ISO”
Comrades who submitted “Recruiting, Developing, and Retaining Members of Color in the ISO” stated as their goal: to “begin an organization‐wide conversation about racial and ethnic diversity in the ISO and our efforts and strategies to recruit, develop, and retain more members of color into it.” Putting aside for the moment the implication that this discussion has not “begun” in the more than 30 years of the life of the organization, the politics of the document are problematic and non‐Marxist.

Despite the authors’ hopes that the document is not “dismissed as one coming from a framework of identity politics,” the politics of the document are in fact based in ‐‐ or at best, influenced by ‐‐ liberal ideas of “diversity” as well as identity politics, “the idea that only those experiencing a particular form of oppression can either define it or fight against it.” (Smith 2008)

A Marxist approach to racism is based on an understanding that it is necessary to build a multi‐racial organization and multi‐racial working‐class struggle because that is the only way that either capitalism or oppression can be fought. And a multi‐racial struggle needs Marxism and the politics of class solidarity to succeed. As the Russian revolutionary V.I. Lenin, put it: “Working class consciousness cannot be genuine political consciousness unless the workers are trained to respond to all cases of tyranny, oppression, violence, and abuse, no matter what class is affected.”

The need for a multi‐racial organization and fight‐back is not a secondary issue to be discussed (or one which comrades of color within the organization are responsible for raising), but is actually the whole purpose of our project. The question of oppression cannot be separated from an analysis of class exploitation and vice‐versa. This is especially the case in the United States, where the historic role of slavery, white supremacy, and Jim Crow segregation have ensured that racism (and particularly racism against African‐Americans) has become the key division used and manipulated by the American ruling class.

Of course we are not yet where we want to be in achieving our goal (whether that be regarding the racial composition of the group, our size, or our implementation in the working class), but unless we are dreaming up wish‐lists for where we want to be, a serious approach to the question would require a concrete assessment of our work, objective challenges, and specific next steps.

Instead, “Recruiting, Developing..” offers a confusing set of broad generalizations regarding objective difficulties, a two sentence throw‐away regarding the tremendous anti‐racist work of the organization over the years, and vague recommendations which mostly outline the work that the organization already does. Yet implicit in the idea that we need to be “systematic” in our approach to recruiting, developing, and retaining members of color in the ISO, is the assertion that we currently do not. Despite this very serious implication, there is no honest or concrete assessment of our current work anywhere in the document.

A quick look at even the last month in NYC alone would demonstrate the opposite—a city wide tour of Brian Jones speaking on civil rights sit‐in movement brought out a multi‐racial periphery (and a high proportion of African American contacts in particular) at every stop; a city‐wide meeting on Haiti that drew 150 people, chaired by a new member; a Campaign to End the Death Penalty anti‐lynching tour; an event at NYU about Marxism, Nationalism, and the Third World; teacher members organizing against school closings in predominantly African‐American and Latino neighborhoods; and as always a commitment to develop comrades, and particularly comrades of color, as meeting chairs, speakers, and most of all as Marxists.

Liberalism and Identity Politics
But more problematic than the generally non‐concrete, non‐serious assessment of our work, the document reads as a liberal appeal to consciousness and the “will” to build a multi‐racial organization, as though this can be achieved by exhorting ourselves to do so, or by developing a more savvy/sophisticated approach. This was also argued by one of the document’s authors at convention, who said we need a “more complex” approach to Chicano politics, the implication being that Marxism doesn’t adequately address oppression.

In fact, the term “diversity” is itself a liberal term that sees combining as many different kinds of experiences and backgrounds as possible as an end in of itself, rather than a means to lead the working class to victory over exploitation and oppression.

The identity politics framework of the document is exposed when the document’s authors argue: “We do believe that comrades of color provide an important link between their communities and revolutionary Marxism.” This both assumes that Marxism is foreign to the fight against racism (and therefore requires special conduits) and that there are such things as “communities” based on racial identity. In fact, any racial or ethnic group is broken down into its various class components. Working class Blacks are no more a part of Barack Obama’s “community” as working class women are part of Hilary Clinton’s or gays a part of Barney Frank’s.

As Sharon Smith wrote in a 2008 ISR article on identity politics: “There is no such thing as a common, fundamental interest shared by all people who face the same form of oppression. Oppression isn’t caused by the race, gender, or sexuality of particular individuals who run the system, but is generated by the very system itself—no matter who’s running it.”

She argues further, “Oppression is something that even most white male workers suffer to some degree. If one were to compare the self‐confidence of the vast majority of white male workers to that of the arrogant Hillary Clinton or Condoleezza Rice, it would be clear that something more than personal politics is a determining factor in oppression. The problem is systemic.”

Of course possessing a personal “identity,” or awareness of oneself as a member of an oppressed group, is an important and legitimate response to experiencing oppression. Smith explains:
No white person can ever understand what it is like to experience racism. No straight person can
understand what it is like to experience homophobia. And even among people who are oppressed by racism, every type of experience is different. A Black person and a Native American person, for example, experience racism differently—as does a person from Mexico versus a person from Puerto Rico. A gay man and a lesbian have quite different experiences.” But Personal experience is not the same as political strategy, which for Marxists is rooted in an understanding of the systemic nature of oppression under capitalism, and the shared interest of the working class across race, sex, and national borders.

Holding the ISO accountable?
Further, the document argues for affirmative action within the ISO, “because our organization does not exist in an egalitarian socialist vacuum and because there is no such thing as colorblindness. Just like we expect other institutions/organizations (many of which we protest) to include diversity development statements in their guiding principles and make structural changes to reflect those principles, we shouldn’t expect any less of our organization.”

Here the document’s authors compare the ISO to institutions under capitalism that need to be held accountable (and that we in fact protest)! In arguing that “there is no such thing as colorblindness” the comrades that wrote the document seem to be saying that the ISO suffers from racism within our organization. If this is in fact true, it is a grave accusation that needs to be explained.

Of course as individuals who live in an oppressive society, we all carry the internal baggage of that society, or as Marx put it, “the muck of ages.” A conscious attempt has to be made to develop women, people of color, working‐class people who have been told our whole lives that we are not good enough or smart enough to speak our ideas, let alone lead others.

Yet despite the fact that we don’t operate in an “egalitarian vacuum” the fact is that a socialist
organization, because of its very nature and goals, has a different material interest than capitalist institutions. It is made up of a self‐selecting group of individuals who voluntarily commit our lives to the emancipation of the working‐class and liberation of all oppressed groups. As Lenin put it, our vision of revolution is a “festival of the oppressed and exploited.” We are bound together by that common purpose and a self‐interest in making an organization fitted for that task.

An old debate within the Russian socialist movement helps shed light on this question. The 1903 congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party (RSDLP) took up as its first agenda item the Jewish Labor Bund’s demand that it be recognized as the representative of Jewish workers living in Russia (to be a conduit, one could say). Jews at that time were of the most oppressed in Russia, living under harsh legal restrictions and terrorized by violent pogroms. The Jewish Bund was a genuine revolutionary organization who adamantly rejected Zionism.

Yet their demand to represent the Jewish working class showed a fundamental distrust of the RSDLP and its handling of oppression against Jews. “The Jewish proletariat,” a leader of the Bund argued, “is very much more strongly interested in the struggle against the exceptional restrictions that are imposed on it than the rest of the proletariat is, and for this reason it is also a more active fighter against this oppression.”

Leon Trotsky, a leading Russian revolutionary, and himself a Jew, responded:
If the Bund, lacking in confidence in the Party, is…demanding safeguards, that we can understand. But how can we put our signatures to this demand? ... To accept such conditions would mean that we acknowledged our own moral and political bankruptcy…

Lenin argued:
Is it not, in fact, the duty of our entire Party to fight for full equality of rights and even for the recognition of the right of nations to self‐determination? Consequently, if any section of our Party were to fail in this duty, it would undoubtedly be liable to censure, by virtue of our principles: it would undoubtedly be liable to correction by the central institutions of the Party. And if that duty was being neglected consciously and deliberately, despite full opportunity to perform it, then this neglect of duty would be treachery.

That is to say, if we cannot trust our own revolutionary organization, committed to the full liberation of the human race, through its own self‐interest to take seriously and systematically the building of a multiracial organization and cadre, then our organization is not worth very much at all.

Conclusion
Lastly, the document argues that comrades of color should be specially trained and developed in the politics of their own identities, “Chicano comrades on questions of ethnic nationalism,” etc. But the best way to train our entire organization to effectively build the movement against oppression and the system which produces oppression is to develop a strong Marxist core. The most effective means to develop comrades of color as cadre is to develop strong Marxists. And while having comrades of color that are confident and well‐versed in our politics certainly helps win others within our multi‐racial periphery, ultimately it is our politics not our identities that win people. That is why, for example, leading white members of the Campaign to End the Death Penalty in NYC carry so much weight and credibility within the work that they do.

Could there have been a document that effectively assessed our work in building a multi‐racial,
revolutionary organization rooted in the working class? Yes, and in fact convention documents that took up our work in particular struggles around the criminal justice system, housing, etc., provided a useful and concrete assessment of some of our work. Another useful contribution would be to assess the objective terrain, challenges and opportunities (for instance, the state of Black politics) that we face in building a multi‐racial organization.

Unfortunately, “Recruiting, Developing, and Retaining Members of Color in the ISO” made no serious attempt to do so. It implies that we do not take seriously, or make systematic, our work in building a multi‐racial organization, essentially race‐baiting the ISO. And it provides neither a Marxist framework nor next steps in achieving that goal.

We’ve made a lot of headway in past years in writing and publishing socialist literature on oppression; in participating and leading in struggles against racism, immigrant‐bashing, homophobia, Islamophobia, and sexism; and in developing a Marxist cadre steeled in the politics of liberation and self‐emancipation. We have a lot to be proud of, and still a long way to go. Political clarity and honest, concrete assessments will be key in moving forward.
H.T. on behalf of the NYC District Committee”

bots
27th August 2010, 04:00
I don't really care for the ISO but this Donna person seems like a whiny moron.

bcbm
27th August 2010, 04:30
why do people always write long, stupid essays whenever they get kicked out of their shitty little socialist group?

Nachie
27th August 2010, 04:35
This will not affect the ISO in any way; there will be a new round of freshmen entering college imminently.

Lenina Rosenweg
27th August 2010, 04:40
Because this woman spent 4 years of her life doing work for her organization. If one spends a lot of time in an organization and dedicates themselves to the class struggle it can become part of one's personal identity.When a dedicated activist finds themselves expelled from their party or group it can be like a romantic relationship gone sour.It can be helpful to describe the experience in theoretical terms as to what happened and why.

I can't comment on Donna's experience. It appears she was treated badly but we only have a small part of the story.

KC
27th August 2010, 06:08
Not surprised. Don't know how/why she would be. ISO sucks. Then again, this is common in most socialist organizations because they're filled with power hungry losers and people that feed them.

Jimmie Higgins
27th August 2010, 06:33
Wank... sectarianism... wank. This slander was refuted in another topic made by this same original poster two weeks ago. If people want to talk politically about the ISO's position on this or that, than that's fine. But this shit is totally unpolitical and the crudest of sectarian wankery by some posters here who don't have anything political to say, so they just feebly try and use a couple of examples of bad falling outs to "prove" how evil this organization is.

Also, circulating what people who don't like the ISO have to say is one thing, but circulating internal discussion papers on items that were being discussed and decided internally, is totally fucked up and kind of like naming names when it's posted to a website like this. That's a total breech of revolutionary solidarity.

If people want to talk about the ISO's stance on racism and how we go about fighting it and trying to build a multi-racial movement, then let's talk. I have no interest in being drawn into another argument about this tea-party-like slander of the ISO by silly sectarians.

Yes the "whitening of the ISO" ordered by... an evil Arab man!:rolleyes:

Weezer
27th August 2010, 06:43
It's sad that people treat the ISO like it has any revolutionary potential.

Jimmie Higgins
27th August 2010, 06:44
This will not affect the ISO in any way; there will be a new round of freshmen entering college imminently.Ha, ha and you're in the anarchist RCP.:tt2:

¿Que?
27th August 2010, 06:47
I'm not clear on who this person who resigned is. Then again, I really don't know how the ISO is organized. I know it's a democratic centralist organization, so I figure there must be some sort of central committee and a rank and file membership, although I'd imagine it's a little more complicated.

Charles Xavier
27th August 2010, 06:56
What do you hope to accomplish by posting this on this website?

Devrim
27th August 2010, 07:50
What do you hope to accomplish by posting this on this website?

I think it is fair to put things like this on here. It is a piece about one of the US biggest left groups. Certainly it is preferable to many of the thread on here, see chit-chat for further details.


Wank... sectarianism... wank.

This is a typical response.

Devrim

Q
27th August 2010, 08:14
Wank... sectarianism... wank. This slander was refuted in another topic made by this same original poster two weeks ago. If people want to talk politically about the ISO's position on this or that, than that's fine. But this shit is totally unpolitical and the crudest of sectarian wankery by some posters here who don't have anything political to say, so they just feebly try and use a couple of examples of bad falling outs to "prove" how evil this organization is.

Also, circulating what people who don't like the ISO have to say is one thing, but circulating internal discussion papers on items that were being discussed and decided internally, is totally fucked up and kind of like naming names when it's posted to a website like this. That's a total breech of revolutionary solidarity.

If people want to talk about the ISO's stance on racism and how we go about fighting it and trying to build a multi-racial movement, then let's talk. I have no interest in being drawn into another argument about this tea-party-like slander of the ISO by silly sectarians.

Yes the "whitening of the ISO" ordered by... an evil Arab man!:rolleyes:

What a disappointing response. You accuse her of not being political, yet you're the one spouting all the ad hominems and don't dig on her arguments in any sense.

As for the "breach in revolutionary solidarity" or whatever you call this censorship, a small point of fact is that the Iskra, Die Neue Zeit and other Marxist publications of the pre-1917 era by default published disagreements and political debate. This had a dual role, as on the one hand it was a safeguard in the democratic running of the organisation and secondly it was a tool in educating the workers movements and of the party dialectically linking up to the leaders in the movement.

Your "breach of revolutionary solidarity", which is just a more fancy word for "security breach", is one of a sect trying to establish one holy line as opposed to a class organisation that is united in action yet has many different views, tendencies and factions.

Or as Devrim put it succinctly: typical nonsense.

Devrim
27th August 2010, 09:46
Also, circulating what people who don't like the ISO have to say is one thing, but circulating internal discussion papers on items that were being discussed and decided internally, is totally fucked up and kind of like naming names when it's posted to a website like this. That's a total breech of revolutionary solidarity.


As for the "breach in revolutionary solidarity" or whatever you call this censorship, a small point of fact is that the Iskra, Die Neue Zeit and other Marxist publications of the pre-1917 era by default published disagreements and political debate. This had a dual role, as on the one hand it was a safeguard in the democratic running of the organisation and secondly it was a tool in educating the workers movements and of the party dialectically linking up to the leaders in the movement.

Your "breach of revolutionary solidarity", which is just a more fancy word for "security breach", is one of a sect trying to establish one holy line as opposed to a class organisation that is united in action yet has many different views, tendencies and factions.

Obviously people shouldn't be named by their real names. That would be an outrageous thing to do. The idea that republishing this document that has nothing at all that could count as a security breach in it is on the same level as doing that is ridiculous.

Devrim

Q
27th August 2010, 10:32
Obviously people shouldn't be named by their real names. That would be an outrageous thing to do. The idea that republishing this document that has nothing at all that could count as a security breach in it is on the same level as doing that is ridiculous.

Devrim

I agree with you on the naming question. I don't however put the complete blame for that leaking on the writer of the letter. The leadership should know the full consequences of their conduct if they happen to treat people like dirt.

That said, I was more talking on the political disagreement and her personal mistreatment. They should never be put under censorship. If you do, you will get much nastier stuff instead, like names being published.

Devrim
27th August 2010, 10:56
I agree with you on the naming question. I don't however put the complete blame for that leaking on the writer of the letter. The leadership should know the full consequences of their conduct if they happen to treat people like dirt.

Actually, I presumed that they were not real names. If people in the ISO were actually foolish enough to sign political documents with their real names, they shouldn't be surprised if this happens.

Devrim

Soviet dude
27th August 2010, 13:20
What do you hope to accomplish by posting this on this website?

Eh, it's something to find for new recruits to the ISO.

Q
27th August 2010, 14:27
Eh, it's something to find for new recruits to the ISO.

So your basic consideration to post this is to directly hurt the ISO? I think that is very sectarian. ISO is part of the problem of the far left, but surely it is also part of the solution. I think our motives must be to let current members of ISO (and for that matter, pretty much any other organisation or "party" on the far left) rethink their traditions and start asking questions. This must be a first step if they are to form principled oppositions against their leadership in order to create a better organisation.

Of course the ISO leadership is well aware of this mechanism and is paranoid enough to discourage anyone from asking questions or, if they persist, rapidly expel them, exactly like what happened to the writer of the letter in the OP. It is this thoroughly rotten sect culture that we must protest against.

Soviet dude
27th August 2010, 14:41
The ISO is a terrible organization that actively tries to fuck things up I do, with the most vicious sort of slander. I hope the group dies, as it would be a great burden lifted on the shoulders of the American Left.

Q
27th August 2010, 14:56
The ISO is a terrible organization that actively tries to fuck things up I do, with the most vicious sort of slander. I hope the group dies, as it would be a great burden lifted on the shoulders of the American Left.

This is a wrong approach for many reasons. One of which is that ISO is not a homogeneous organisation, all members are not clones in the image of the leadership, as much as the leadership would imagine that it was. We shouldreach out to critical self-thinking members and equip them with arguments to fight for a better organisation. No doubt in my mind that the common membership will never hear from this expulsion by the leaders, that is why posting such topics here is important.

Your argument is wrong for a different reason and for that I'll use your quote in a different context:


The Soviet Union is a terrible country that actively tries to fuck things up I do, with the most vicious sort of slander. I hope this regime dies, as it would be a great burden lifted on the shoulders of the American Left.

Indeed, this was a position many far left groups took after the collapse of the USSR (the ISO being one of them). Evidently it meant that the left throughout the world had a huge hit: organisations and parties dwindled in size, the Eurocommies liquidated their CP's and the existing bourgeois-workers parties making a sharp turn to the right embracing neoliberal politics.

A collapse of the ISO would have a similar effect on a smaller scale for the American left. The ISO has relatively many members, this concentration would disperse a wave of disillusionment across the left board, small as that is, and would put us yet another step backwards towards building a class party.

redasheville
27th August 2010, 15:19
We are having a conference call tonight of the national "fuck up whatever it is that Soviet Dude does" fraction tonight.

Soviet dude
27th August 2010, 15:25
The funny part is, you probably actually are, considering recent circumstances.

redasheville
27th August 2010, 15:40
See your credibility is undermined with posts like that. I am off to work and I will have a for serious response to all of this.

Jimmie Higgins
27th August 2010, 16:48
Eh, it's something to find for new recruits to the ISO.Thanks for being honest about the sectarian nature of your OP.

"I heard that anarchists work for the police"

"I heard that X group is racist"

"I heard that Obama is Muslim"

Yeah that's the real reason for these posts - to poison the well and cast doubt on other left groups in a totally unpolitical way.

If people want to discuss our political take on the USSR or some current event or even the way we organize, then that's one thing - otherwise this is just pitiful sectarianism.

Q
27th August 2010, 16:53
Thanks for putting me on one heap with that sectarian troll...

Jimmie Higgins
27th August 2010, 17:54
What a disappointing response. You accuse her of not being political, yet you're the one spouting all the ad hominems and don't dig on her arguments in any sense.

These same accusations were responded to by me two weeks ago when this same poster posted another "ISO secretly controls the weather" post. Really I shouldn't even be taking the bait, but it pisses me off - particularly when the main appeal for me about this website is being able to discuss politics with people from other viewpoints and traditions and I have always tried to encourage a non-sectarian atmosphere in my posts. Granted I may have made jokes about the RCP here and there, but that's just because I honestly don't understand them and because of that their actions sometimes seem strange and a bit funny.


As for the "breach in revolutionary solidarity" or whatever you call this censorship, a small point of fact is that the Iskra, Die Neue Zeit and other Marxist publications of the pre-1917 era by default published disagreements and political debate. This had a dual role, as on the one hand it was a safeguard in the democratic running of the organisation and secondly it was a tool in educating the workers movements and of the party dialectically linking up to the leaders in the movement.We are not a mass party, I am totally in favor of discussing this topic of mass vs. revolutionary party in another thread if you want. But releasing internal debates in a group that keeps these debates internal for the sake of having freedom to discuss things openly inside our group is totally fucked up. It's like just because I disagree with Black block tactics, doesn't mean I support people coming to a demo and taking the masks off Black blockers faces even thought I think it would be best for anarchists to organize openly.

Jimmie Higgins
27th August 2010, 18:04
Thanks for putting me on one heap with that sectarian troll...Was that to me? I was responding to Soviet Dude, not your posts.

The response I made to you is the one above.

Devrim
27th August 2010, 18:42
We are not a mass party, I am totally in favor of discussing this topic of mass vs. revolutionary party in another thread if you want. But releasing internal debates in a group that keeps these debates internal for the sake of having freedom to discuss things openly inside our group is totally fucked up. It's like just because I disagree with Black block tactics, doesn't mean I support people coming to a demo and taking the masks off Black blockers faces even thought I think it would be best for anarchists to organize openly.

Previously you were comparing it to naming names, which it is in no way on the same level as.

I think that there is a question that needs to be asked with regards to this. Do you think that people should be able to explain why they have left political organisations? This obviously involves explaining some of the discussions going on inside the organisation.

If not, do you think that the Bolsheviks were in some way wrong in 1903 for explaining why they split with the Mensheviks, which obviously involved openly discussing a whole number of internal party debates?

Devrim

Sam_b
27th August 2010, 18:54
It's sad that people treat the ISO like it has any revolutionary potential.



Organisation: Pirate Party US, REVOLUTION(L5I Youth)

This is a bit too easy.

Lyev
27th August 2010, 19:10
There's a pattern here though isn't there? This kind of thing happens all the time on the far-left (sorry if "far-left" is quite an ambiguous term - I just mean, broadly, any communist organisations), but less so with more libertarian trends (left-communist, anarchist etc.) as far as I know. Recently we have had the SWP (UK), the IMT and now this: it's clearly not a one-off so therefore must be indicative of a broader underlying malaise, organizationally, common to most far-left groups. I had a discussion with Q about this a while ago in IRC (he might be able to elaborate on this) and, from this discussion, it would seem that it's in the nature of any group, in it's day-to-day organisation, to eventually sink into an entrenched bureaucratic centralism, where debate and such is stifled. There are many groups like this; why don't we see a rich and varying variety of caucuses springing up, or some debate-provoking letters written in newspapers? Then again, I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but what measures can activists take against these ultimately divisive expulsions, splits etc.?

syndicat
27th August 2010, 22:03
But releasing internal debates in a group that keeps these debates internal for the sake of having freedom to discuss things openly inside our group is totally fucked up. It's like just because I disagree with Black block tactics, doesn't mean I support people coming to a demo and taking the masks off Black blockers faces even thought I think it would be best for anarchists to organize openly.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Why would it impinge on the freedom of internal discussion for someone to talk in public about a particular disagreement or differing views that exist inside an organization? Do you all fear the organization will look bad? Look, even in a fairly solid and disciplined organization, there are going to be disagreements. Why make a pretense that no such disagreements exist?

I notice that the poster says that the executive committee, or whatever you call it, in ISO can expel people on its own authority. In my organization we don't allow the continental coordinating committee to have that power.

Originally our constitution only allowed a national (now continental, as we have a Canadian section) conference to expel someone, and only after they were notified 90 days in advance and given an opportunity to defend themselves before the members.

About 2000 we were subject to a secretive entryist takeover attmept by an anarcho-syndicalist sect which gained a majority on the coordinating committee and started expelling people who might argue against them, in direct violation of our constitution. Regaining control of the organization almost destroyed it. Since then we've modified the constitution to create a system of candidate membership and allow branches to vet members. But it is still a question of being accountable directly to the comrades, not some committee.

I can't comment on the "i've been expelled" poster's comments as I don't know if he or she has given an accurate rendition. I do think that diversity is a positive value. I wouldn't say it is a form of "identity" politics. Part of developing unity in the working class involves paying attention to the particular harms to subgroups of the class due to particular forms of oppression, by gender, race or nationality etc. It's helpful to understanding these harms and relating to particular communities subject to them if members of those communities, who have the relevant experiences, can share those experiences.

That said, the radical left generally does not adequately reflect the diversity of the working class population. This is a problem not unique to the ISO.

KC
28th August 2010, 00:28
Also, circulating what people who don't like the ISO have to say is one thing, but circulating internal discussion papers on items that were being discussed and decided internally, is totally fucked up and kind of like naming names when it's posted to a website like this. That's a total breech of revolutionary solidarity.

First, they expressly said she could disclose it.

Second, it should be public in the first place.

Third, nobody cares.

black magick hustla
28th August 2010, 00:46
at the very least she can spend that pocket money she paid as dues in beer and videogames.

Devrim
28th August 2010, 12:17
There's a pattern here though isn't there? This kind of thing happens all the time on the far-left (sorry if "far-left" is quite an ambiguous term - I just mean, broadly, any communist organisations), but less so with more libertarian trends (left-communist, anarchist etc.) as far as I know.

Trotskyists do seem to have a tendency to split, but it is not one which anarchists and left communists are totally immune to. When the CNT was reemerging after the death of Franco it went through a series of splits, which were replicated in other sections of the IWA. There was a split from the UK AF to form a Platformist group just last year. On the left communist side, the ICC went through a series of damaging splits, which in my view it handled very badly, and there are about half a dozens International Communist Parties. I was recently chatting to somebody from the PCInt, who was telling me that they had just had a small split, which was their first since 1953, which is not bad.


I had a discussion with Q about this a while ago in IRC (he might be able to elaborate on this) and, from this discussion, it would seem that it's in the nature of any group, in it's day-to-day organisation, to eventually sink into an entrenched bureaucratic centralism, where debate and such is stifled. There are many groups like this; why don't we see a rich and varying variety of caucuses springing up, or some debate-provoking letters written in newspapers?

I don't think that this is inevitable.


Then again, I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but what measures can activists take against these ultimately divisive expulsions, splits etc.?

I think it is important to recognise that splits/expulsions are not by definition bad in themselves, though often they can be.


I notice that the poster says that the executive committee, or whatever you call it, in ISO can expel people on its own authority. In my organization we don't allow the continental coordinating committee to have that power.

Originally our constitution only allowed a national (now continental, as we have a Canadian section) conference to expel someone, and only after they were notified 90 days in advance and given an opportunity to defend themselves before the members.

The ICC is similar. I don't know about 90 days notice, but only a section (national congress) can expel people, and I believe they even have a right of appeal to the world congress.


That said, the radical left generally does not adequately reflect the diversity of the working class population. This is a problem not unique to the ISO.

I don't think that it really makes any sense to expect it too when we are talking about tiny organisations, in which I include your and mine. In the ICC in Turkey for example about 50% of the members are Kurds, which is well above the 20% of the population that they make up. However, as far as I am aware none of the members are from Alevi, a religious minority that makes up a similar proportion of the population, backgrounds. In general both of these minorities are 'overrepresented' in the Turkish left. I think we are too small for it to be of any statistical relevance.

To go back to when I was a member of DAM (now SolFed), the UK IWA section, in the 1980s, our local branch, South West London, of getting on for 20 members, had 2 Sri Lankans in it, but no blacks, which doesn't at all represent the local demographic. We also had 5 dole office workers, 3 postmen, and three nurses, which basically was because we were recruiting people in struggles where we already had a militant or two. There were no housewives though. To a certain extent you pick up people around you and you can't make generalisations from such small samples.

So when it was written in the opening post that "II. Expulsions and membership exodus on not-so-good terms in DC ISO - resulting in a 90% white branch in a 54% black city", I don't think that it is particularly important.

Devrim

Q
28th August 2010, 14:40
I had a discussion with Q about this a while ago in IRC (he might be able to elaborate on this) and, from this discussion, it would seem that it's in the nature of any group, in it's day-to-day organisation, to eventually sink into an entrenched bureaucratic centralism, where debate and such is stifled.
I think you misunderstood me. Within the context of the current culture of the far left, of groups being closed for dissenting views, these splits occur regularly. If they happen to disagree with the party line, members only have three options: they submit, they leave or, the hardest and therefore most less common, they wage a principled opposition (which might result in expulsion). We're talking about splits all the time, however the most common way of organisations to shrink in size is to loose individual members. Often a split is a collective expression of this tendency.

Like Devrim said though, there is nothing inevitable about it.


There are many groups like this; why don't we see a rich and varying variety of caucuses springing up, or some debate-provoking letters written in newspapers? Then again, I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but what measures can activists take against these ultimately divisive expulsions, splits etc.?
They can wage principled opposition of fighting for a better organisation, but this is a hard and often long road.

Jimmie Higgins
29th August 2010, 02:50
On the question of internal privacy:

Previously you were comparing it to naming names, which it is in no way on the same level as.Very true, if it had been just a straight reproduction of internal political debates and proposals I would have asked a mod to delete it.


I think that there is a question that needs to be asked with regards to this. Do you think that people should be able to explain why they have left political organisations? This obviously involves explaining some of the discussions going on inside the organisation.I wasn't clear, I'm sorry. My problem isn't with the former ISO member posting excerpts from internal proposals - because obviously she was doing so to explain a political point. My beef was directed towards Soviet Dude who then posted them again on this website (with no political point, just a desire to "hurt" our group because, I suspect, he just doesn't like our political positions) and I do consider that a fucked up thing to do.


I'm not sure I understand your point here. Why would it impinge on the freedom of internal discussion for someone to talk in public about a particular disagreement or differing views that exist inside an organization? Do you all fear the organization will look bad? Look, even in a fairly solid and disciplined organization, there are going to be disagreements. Why make a pretense that no such disagreements exist?

Our "security" in regards to these internal position documents and debates really only consists of a line at the top of the document saying "for ISO members only" and trust in our members and so really it is not a big deal at the moment. It's also not a big thing right now because frankly the revolutionary left is not of much concern for the US ruling class and so I doubt that, at this point, they would use internal differences and debates and documents against us... if there was an upsurge in the working class movement, then every reasonable radical should keep their internal disagreements close to the chest or it will be ammunition for our real enemies (i.e. the state and ruling class, not just misguided sectarians).

However, I hope the irony is not lost on anyone who is wondering why our organization keeps internal debates internal that this is a thread started by an OP who used an article that quoted internal debate documents to "prove" that our group is "racist" for the sole purpose of making our organization look bad to new radicals and who hopes our group "dies"!

On disagreements:

Of course disagreements happen and are healthy as long as it doesn't hinder united action. We don't organize into various factions after a collective decision has been made because this is how we test our ideas in practice. If we debate and decide on a position that, for example, the Green party is pulling working class liberals away from the Democrats and creating a space where radical politics can be discussed with a lot of radicalizing people, then we don't know if this idea is valid or not just be thinking about it, we have to test this idea in practice.

In the ISO's view we are up against a highly organized force and need to be just as organized. But the ruling class has money to buy people and the power to force people to follow orders and be organized. Our side has to figure out a more bottom-up way of achieving organization because it does the working class no good for workers to be "followers" (that what we have to do by default in this society). So the question for radical groups is how do you achieve unity in action and organization that is not based on top-down orders but helps people be their own leaders. So some anarchists have affinity groups which is basically the same, in effect, as "splits" and "sects" that Trotskyists are always accused of being. Or you can try and build a mass radical party as Q argues is needed. While I am all for radical coalitions based on some points of unity and aims, I think that large member-based groups tend to have the problems of creating passivity among members and factional in-fighting.

So I favor democratic centralism as the best potential balance (although there are plenty of examples of how this kind of decision-making has been either mis-used or failed) between full debate and having the ability to act quickly and in a united manner. I don't favor factions because that basically means that no political decision has been made and then it becomes impossible to test ideas in practice. How the ISO has attempted to make this balance has changed as conditions in our organization (i.e. size) and in society have changed, and it will continue to develop as we learn from our experiences.

Jimmie Higgins
29th August 2010, 03:02
at the very least she can spend that pocket money she paid as dues in beer and videogames.Ha, I saw that same argument in a anti-union video they show to new workers at Wal-Mart.

syndicat
29th August 2010, 04:56
But the ruling class has money to buy people and the power to force people to follow orders and be organized. Our side has to figure out a more bottom-up way of achieving organization because it does the working class no good for workers to be "followers" (that what we have to do by default in this society). So the question for radical groups is how do you achieve unity in action and organization that is not based on top-down orders but helps people be their own leaders.

yes. the point about workers not being followers is an important point.

but i'm not sure why being a multi-tendencied organization would get in the way of the required unity in practice. in my organization we have a fairly detailed political statement, and we expect/require members to agree to it. But it leaves a number of questions undecided...where we don't find it necessary to force a decision right now. i think a problem with some groups is that they go too far in the direction of degree of agreement on ideology. this can then provoke unnecessary splits.

when we created our national organization back in the '80s the constitution had a provision allowing for "tendencies" but required them to be up-front about their existence. we recently removed that language from the constitution for housecleaning purposes, not because we no longer hold that view, but because no formal tendencies have ever been created in 25 years....maybe because we're not large enough. this doesn't mean we're not, in practice, a multi-tendencied organization. It's just that there are certain limits as far as variation.

your point about the importance of workers not being followers would also apply to a mass organization such as a union, or an intermediate level of organization such as an organized militant minority rank and file group independent of the bureaucracy in some union. These organizations in practice do require some level of unity, just a lower level than a group organized by revolutionary socialist ideology of some sort.

the IWW's ideal of a workers organization is one where "we're all leaders" and "we're all equals in the struggle." I know that organizations can have a hard time living up to that. but effort needs to be made in that direction.

Jimmie Higgins
29th August 2010, 06:25
but i'm not sure why being a multi-tendencied organization would get in the way of the required unity in practice. in my organization we have a fairly detailed political statement, and we expect/require members to agree to it. But it leaves a number of questions undecided...where we don't find it necessary to force a decision right now. i think a problem with some groups is that they go too far in the direction of degree of agreement on ideology. this can then provoke unnecessary splits.Yeah, I hear you. Ideology is important, but there needs to be balance and viewed in the context of what is necessary at a given time or not. Is it important that someone who works with the ISO believes a particular version of state-capitalism for him or her to be a member or is it fair enough that they believe that the USSR-style systems were in effect the same thing with a new ruling (non-prol.) class in control of society and couldn't be reformed into a "worker's state"? I think a lot of the problem with being too specific in having a political "line" (particularly among Trots or small Marxist groups) comes from not being able or interested in taking political action. So study and figuring out the perfect political position becomes the main political outlet and if you are not on the ground testing these "perfect political lines" then you might come to fetishize them and think: "if only the ISO and anarchists and others agreed with me on this or that, then we could really build a revolutionary movement!"

However, it does matter what you think about certain issues. Just imagine if RevLeft was one large radical organization... we'd have some members who want to concentrate on anti-theist activities, others who believe some kind of liberation theology, people who see a post-revolution society as organized at the ground level and people who want a state where a party nationalizes industry and passes reforms. In effect, we would just be a network of sects - which maybe isn't a bad thing too, but the point is we'd still have the same political differences and we would find it difficult to do united actions on many things and so essentially it would be a non-organization, just a loose coalition.

I think in coalitions focused on immediate aims and in a radical union like the IWW it is possible and helpful to have various tendencies and viewpoints because generally the decisions that are being made are done on a single issue, or in the case of unions at the workplace where the rank and file are basically dealing with the same sorts of things at the same time.

Maybe I'm mis-representing the IWW here, but I always kind of imagined that the "one big union" would become basically the way decisions are made after a revolution (i.e. workers would generally be already united into a self-organizing structure: the radical union). In that case, it would also be important on the general level (not just in one workplace) to allow total diversity of ideas since the goal is unifying people into a group, not promoting specific politics (other than the general principles of solidarity and opposition to capitalism and so on). With a group like the ISO, we are not trying to create the structure (through a party) which would be the way society is run after a revolution, it is merely an attempt to build a vehicle that can help build a coordinated network of radicals who are already in various places and struggles to collect their experiences, learn from them collectively, and link various struggles together. That means it's necissary to be on the same page more or less to be able to know if our ideas are actually working in reality or if they are totally off.

As an ISO member, I want to be part of multi-tendency coalitions in movements because it teaches us (radicals) how to work with each-other while keeping our individual positions (and forces non-radicals in the movement to have to confront the limits of liberal politics and their inherited assumptions about state, police, bosses, and so on). But since I also want to promote the kind of politics that I think make the most sense, I want to be able to organize around and promote those specific ideas as well because frankly I don't want "socialism in one country" or a state with some reforms and a nationalized economy, I want a worker's society controlled and organized from below.