School uniforms?

[Uppercut]

What is your stance on the introduction of official school uniforms? Do you think they are necessary or are they just a waste of time? At the moment, I don't really have a solid opinion on the subject. It's true that they might make school more equitable and homely and I'm guessing that they would help decrease conflicts between different cliques. At the same time, I doubt many kids (at least in America) would like the idea of being told what they can and cannot wear on school grounds. But then again, it may be for their own good.

and as a sidenote, Japan and China have some pretty bad ass school uniforms.

[Agnapostate]

It would just be another facet of the compulsion and authoritarian environment of schools.

[The Douche]

How would uniforms end cliques? Thats crazy. School uniforms are just another facet of social conditioning.

[Uppercut]

Yeah, I know that's the anarchist position, but I'm talking more in terms of the types of clothing that are associated with different cliques and stereotypes (jocks, goths, etc.). Of course, it wouldn't end all conflicts, but it's definately a step in the right direction. From the statistics I've looked up, on average, the countries that require school uniforms generally have less in school fighting and stereotyping pertaining to what someone is wearing. If students could grasp the use of school uniforms, it could give them a sense of purpose and pride that they're there to receive an education and better themselves.
It could also bring some much needed discipline and organization to a rather unruely and conflict-ridden society.

[The Douche]

It could also bring some much needed discipline and organization to a rather unruely and conflict-ridden society.

...must...control...secterianism...

[Tablo]

Yeah, I know that's the anarchist position, but I'm talking more in terms of the types of clothing that are associated with different cliques and stereotypes (jocks, goths, etc.). Of course, it wouldn't end all conflicts, but it's definately a step in the right direction. From the statistics I've looked up, on average, the countries that require school uniforms generally have less in school fighting and stereotyping pertaining to what someone is wearing. If students could grasp the use of school uniforms, it could give them a sense of purpose and pride that they're there to receive an education and better themselves.
It could also bring some much needed discipline and organization to a rather unruely and conflict-ridden society.
You're joking right? Forcing people to wear uniforms is idiotic.

[Peace on Earth]

Dear god, don't make schools any more like a prison.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I think its good, it will help to build a more collective menthality among children, rather then shitty individualism thats brought to them today. The idea of that we choose what we want to wear is much of a myth, if you disagree how come that soo many people out of theire free will just has to choos the same brands? nothing wrong with that it just showes part of human nature, the collective behavour. Moste of us will spend the major wake-up time in some sort of uniform, im talking about work and the clothes that you have to wear there, so why should it be so different for children.

[Peace on Earth]

I think its good, it will help to build a more collective menthality among children, rather then shitty individualism thats brought to them today. The idea of that we choose what we want to wear is much of a myth, if you disagree how come that soo many people out of theire free will just has to choos the same brands? nothing wrong with that it just showes part of human nature, the collective behavour. Moste of us will spend the major wake-up time in some sort of uniform, im talking about work and the clothes that you have to wear there, so why should it be so different for children.
Please tell me this is an elaborate joke that has failed due to the limitations of the internet.

If not, it's a ridiculous stance to have. Whatever happened to the freedom to choose? Kids need to be able to express themselves, not shoved into a one-size-fits-all clothing style.

[The Douche]

Moste of us will spend the major wake-up time in some sort of uniform, im talking about work and the clothes that you have to wear there, so why should it be so different for children.

Thats why it should be different school should be about learning and developing social skills, not an institute of social conditioning where you learn how to be a good worker.:rolleyes:

[Nachie]

Hey look, Stalinists!

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Im not joking, i dont make such a big thing about it thats all. Lets talk about the practical things with uniforms, it will help many working class families with low income, by simply giving them some extra clothes.

[NecroCommie]

Even as a goth/metalhead hybrid I will have to agree on the positive impact of school uniforms. I myself went through my elementary school in the huge wave of school bullying in the 90's. And I dare say uniforms would have decreased the chances of stupid excuses for bullying. There was constant violence between rappers/metalheads/fruit boys and whatever! Most of these groups differentiated themselves solely through clothing.

School is a place for learning. Socializing and infantile biggotry is an activity of spare-time. Without the arbitary sub-cultural differences students might actually see how much they share socially and materially.

[Obs]

In a protest against the liberal individualism of modern schooling, I come to school every day in the same olive green jumpsuit. Of course, I never wash it, as detergent is bourgeois.

[ContrarianLemming]

What is your stance on the introduction of official school uniforms? Do you think they are necessary or are they just a waste of time? At the moment, I don't really have a solid opinion on the subject. It's true that they might make school more equitable and homely and I'm guessing that they would help decrease conflicts between different cliques. At the same time, I doubt many kids (at least in America) would like the idea of being told what they can and cannot wear on school grounds. But then again, it may be for their own good.

and as a sidenote, Japan and China have some pretty bad ass school uniforms.

In ireland almost every school has a uniform, save the more progressive state run schools. I hated them when I was in schoo, they were ugly grey things, itchy, bad quality, they branded you with the schools name, catholic symbolism and were uniform in there likeness to a prison wall.

I briefly went to a school with no uniform, funny thing is, these are the schools which often have the least bullying because no uniforms often corrolate with liberalism here.

edit: the uniforms never affected school cliques, we still had them.

[Old Man Diogenes]

I'm talking more in terms of the types of clothing that are associated with different cliques and stereotypes (jocks, goths, etc.).

I see the school uniform as just bigger clique. How about we try and teach kids that there's no crime in thinking for yourself and hopefully kids might just be themselves instead following some kind of "fashion code" set by celebrities and such and fractioning into emo herds or goth herds or jock herds.

[NecroCommie]

I would like to add that as a child I used to pity british kids because of their school uniforms. Nowadays I am 20 and I am actually quite jealous that they had such a priviledge.

[ContrarianLemming]

I would like to add that as a child I used to pity british kids because of their school uniforms. Nowadays I am 20 and I am actually quite jealous that they had such a priviledge.

they were uncomfortable and the pockets are usually tiny

I was jealous of americans :p

[NecroCommie]

they were uncomfortable and the pockets are usually tiny

I was jealous of americans :p
Nothing actually states that uniforms must be uncomfortable with tiny pockets. The details of the uniform are irrelevant, I am promoting the usage of uniforms in general.

[ContrarianLemming]

please people, must emphasize: the uniforms never affects school cliques, they were still rather apperant, in their hairstyle, their accents, which is a rather bigger divide in dublin I guess, where accent does indicate class position.

[NecroCommie]

No one claims that uniforms single handedly erase cliques. It simply increases the chances of not having overt influence by superficial arseholes.

Edit: I elaborated it to be more accurately what I meant.

[Obs]

Nope.

[ContrarianLemming]

No one claims that uniforms single handedly erase cliques. It simply increases the chances of not having overtly superficial arseholes.

The existence of cliques is based far less on clothing then you give credit, people simply want to belong, teens want a group to call their own, nothings going to stop teenage nature bud. This is universal, and cliques don't mean conflict between them, or bullying, I mean, I was part of a clique, and I liked it, because they were people i could call upon for assistence, my homies.

[NecroCommie]

All cliques except the ones based on class are cultural constructs, and therefore not "natural".

The splintering of the western culture is nothing more but an attempt to adapt to the fact that people are more and more unsatisfied with the ridiculously commercial mainstream culture. Western mainstream being entirely creation of capitalism and having no attempt to respond to the actual cultural needs of individuals.

[leftace53]

Dear god, don't make schools any more like a prison.
Agreed. While clothes are often something people might be picked on about, making everyone wear the same thing doesn't change the bullying mentality. School uniforms are as crazy as dress codes.

[Kotze]

Aside from the alleged anti-cliquish effect it's definitely a relief for poor families (not that our anarchists care about that).

Once upon a time I read an article about introduction of uniforms in a school; the attitude about it got more positive after a couple of months. So if I was the king of the world I'd do a test run in a couple of schools (without asking for volunteering schools since that would ruin the sample), after half a year I'd use the feedback to decide whether to make that the norm.

I prefer simple unisex uniforms that would be the same no matter which school.

[Sam_b]

Back in school I was much more concerned about the union rights of the staff, the level of teaching and the increase of military recruitment than I was about the 'oppressive' school uniform.

Some perspective is needed here.

[the last donut of the night]

How about we spend more time discussing how prison, for one, is authoritarian and exploitative than how school uniforms crush our freedom?

[danyboy27]

the only real purpose of a dressing code/uniform should be solely based on its practicality.

While theoritical formation dosnt require a special kind of clothing, Lab experiment and other manual task are more safe to perform with a proper kind of clothing.

[NecroCommie]

Sam and YHLO are both kinda right that we need perspective. I am not going to crush through uniforms by force if it is so important. Still, it is an issue even if just minor one. An issue that has my support.

[Honggweilo]

fuck clothes, obligatory nudism as school uniform

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgoP-4f4KKQ

[Invincible Summer]

I went to a private school with uniforms, and if it wasn't the clothing that made cliques or discrimination, it was always something else. So it's sort of redundant.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.workwearhouse.co.uk/acatalog/C890.jpg

for all children (http://www.workwearhouse.co.uk/acatalog/Portwest_Children_s_Boilersuit.html)

[Uppercut]

In ireland almost every school has a uniform, save the more progressive state run schools. I hated them when I was in schoo, they were ugly grey things, itchy, bad quality, they branded you with the schools name, catholic symbolism and were uniform in there likeness to a prison wall.

You're acting like it's a required condition that the uniforms would have to be shitty and filled with catholic symbolism or whatever. They would have to be secular if there was a socialist revolution (obviously) and because education would be given such a high priority, there would be no cutting corners in assuring that our children are given the best society could offer. They may be shitty in Ireland, but hey, that's capitalism.



I briefly went to a school with no uniform, funny thing is, these are the schools which often have the least bullying because no uniforms often corrolate with liberalism here.

edit: the uniforms never affected school cliques, we still had them.

I think that has more to do with location, mentality and conditioning than anything. Some kids will want to stick with their cliques no matter what, that is true. However, we can't let a few bratty kids stand in the way of what is better for the majority of school kids. Cliques are reactionary and divisionary and they need to be solved in one way or another. We've posted a few examples already of how uniforms decrease school bullying and help to limit individualism. But you're making it seem like school uniforms = end of freedom. I think that's a gross overstatement, especially when there are a good number of honest kids out that that constantly get picked on and put down because of their personality or lifestyle. We need to think of strong methods to limit these antagonisms.


I see the school uniform as just bigger clique. How about we try and teach kids that there's no crime in thinking for yourself and hopefully kids might just be themselves instead following some kind of "fashion code" set by celebrities and such and fractioning into emo herds or goth herds or jock herds.

I really don't see the point you're trying to make here. Yes, critical thinking is important and there's no shame in having your own tastes and preferences. But we're talking about school here. It's supposed to be a secure area where students can best their abilities without having to fear being in the "out crowd". And by the way, society is currently fractioned into "goth herd" or "emo herds". The whole I started this thread is to discuss and combat these issues through more egalitarian school clothing. It's not like they would be told what to wear out of school or anything.


Agreed. While clothes are often something people might be picked on about, making everyone wear the same thing doesn't change the bullying mentality. School uniforms are as crazy as dress codes.

How are uniforms and dress codes "crazy"?


Dear god, don't make schools any more like a prison.

Nobody wants school to be like prison. Nobody is calling for that whatsoever. There's a big difference between school uniforms and the prison-industrial complex.


Please tell me this is an elaborate joke that has failed due to the limitations of the internet.

I'm afraid it's not a joke. Us evil Stalinists are at it again, taking your kids' freedom away cuz that's how we roll :thumbup1:

[ContrarianLemming]

But you're making it seem like school uniforms = end of freedom.

please..my view is as Basta put it: if it wasn't the clothing that made cliques or discrimination, it was always something else. So it's sort of redundant.

there was always something else that set people apart, teens just wanna belong imo

[Invincible Summer]

You're acting like it's a required condition that the uniforms would have to be shitty and filled with catholic symbolism or whatever. They would have to be secular if there was a socialist revolution (obviously) and because education would be given such a high priority, there would be no cutting corners in assuring that our children are given the best society could offer. They may be shitty in Ireland, but hey, that's capitalism.

It's capitalism's fault that school uniforms suck? Okay... please tell me how the communist party-endorsed uniforms will be better.

And the uniforms (at my school anyway) didn't have any Catholic symbolism. Do you know anything about Catholic schools? What the fuck would that even mean?? Like... dressing like the Virgin Mary or something? Egad.


We've posted a few examples already of how uniforms decrease school bullying and help to limit individualism.

Seriously, at my school, you could be made fun of for what you brought to lunch, what sort of pencils you used, etc.


.
The whole I started this thread is to discuss and combat these issues through more egalitarian school clothing. It's not like they would be told what to wear out of school or anything.
What is "egalitarian school clothing?"

And AFAIK most private (uniformed schools) don't tell the students what to wear out of school either. In fact, I know that if you're caught doing something questionable in uniform, you get into trouble for sullying the image. Thus it's in one's best interest to not wear the uniform out of school.

[Rusty Shackleford]

im tied between uniforms and non uniforms.

wearing whatever the fuck you want has led to extreme individualism. people actually feel awkward wearing the same shirt as someone else. wtf. clothes also get flashier and uglier in my opinion. now people walk around with oversized shirts that have blindingly bright designs on them. (ok a bit of an exaggeration but ill stick with it)

uniforms can be seen as stifling though. "just one more reason" why to hate schools. maybe there would be a more comfortable and democratically decided upon uniform. at least uniforms help people look at each others faces and not elsewhere lol


anyways. on the subject of education. no matter who educates you, its a form of indoctrination. be it the state, your parents, friends, cell, or party, even yourself. sure state schools are mass education factories, but i trust them more than i do a private school.

[Uppercut]

It's capitalism's fault that school uniforms suck?

Yes


Seriously, at my school, you could be made fun of for what you brought to lunch, what sort of pencils you used, etc.

Well then that is elitism, which needs to be combatted as well. Hopefully that will disappear in the future. But still, that has nothing to do with school uniforms.



What is "egalitarian school clothing?"

And AFAIK most private (uniformed schools) don't tell the students what to wear out of school either. In fact, I know that if you're caught doing something questionable in uniform, you get into trouble for sullying the image

Well, I guess that would come down to what exactly that person was doing. But what exactly do you mean by "questionable"? Picking your nose?

[Peace on Earth]

People are forgetting the strain uniforms put on low-income families. While it is true that they may not have to deal with the annual buying of clothes, but they, in many cases, must buy school uniforms, as well as dealing with washing and repairing them as they are worn. Not to mention the utter annoyance many students have trying to find the correct pieces of the uniform.

Stop crushing individuality and freedom.

[Uppercut]

People are forgetting the strain uniforms put on low-income families. While it is true that they may not have to deal with the annual buying of clothes, but they, in many cases, must buy school uniforms, as well as dealing with washing and repairing them as they are worn. Not to mention the utter annoyance many students have trying to find the correct pieces of the uniform.

The uniforms would probably be free under socialism, but I can understand what you're saying so long as we are living under capitalism.

[NecroCommie]

What is it with people saying: "School uniforms do not eradicate cliques in themselves = school uniforms do nothing" ... I mean, do I really need to point out the error in this logic? And who claimed that all the differences would disappear with clothing? One thing is certain, and that is the fact that uniforms don't make subcultural biggotry any easier.

[Invincible Summer]

Yes


Then please explain how a communist society would make uniforms not suck. I've asked that question twice in the post you quoted, but you ignored it.



Well then that is elitism, which needs to be combatted as well. Hopefully that will disappear in the future. But still, that has nothing to do with school uniforms.
I think elitism and class discrimination (which tend to go hand-in-hand) are the underlying bases of what we're talking about here, but I don't think a uniform is necessarily helpful to combat such societal ills.

My point was that because of the students wearing a uniform and having no clothes/aesthetic clique to discriminate against (wearing the wrong brand, style, etc), it came down to even more inane things.




Well, I guess that would come down to what exactly that person was doing. But what exactly do you mean by "questionable"? Picking your nose?You've conveniently ignored the question "what is egalitarian school clothing" and cut out the part where my point was made.

Instead of constructing strawmen, why don't you address the issues?

To my knowledge, no one is forced to wear uniforms out of school anyway, so claiming that communism will fix this is pretty useless.




What is it with people saying: "School uniforms do not eradicate cliques in themselves = school uniforms do nothing" ... I mean, do I really need to point out the error in this logic? And who claimed that all the differences would disappear with clothing? One thing is certain, and that is the fact that uniforms don't make subcultural biggotry any easier.

I don't know if you're directing this at me too, but I'll respond anyway.

I think that uniforms just deflect bullying and related immaturity to other areas that may be just as hurtful, so it seems like it's pretty ineffectual if one's goal is so curb bullying.

[Agnapostate]

From the statistics I've looked up, on average, the countries that require school uniforms generally have less in school fighting and stereotyping pertaining to what someone is wearing.

Do you know of any statistics that demonstrate a causative link between compulsory uniform attire and fewer school social problems? Or could it be a matter of school uniforms being a facet of an otherwise well-guided student management and resource program that itself prevents those issues? Hate to go back to the old platitude, but correlation is not causation.


If students could grasp the use of school uniforms, it could give them a sense of purpose and pride that they're there to receive an education and better themselves.
It could also bring some much needed discipline and organization to a rather unruely and conflict-ridden society.


I think its good, it will help to build a more collective menthality among children, rather then shitty individualism thats brought to them today.

The nature of compulsory schooling is very precisely disciplined, organized, with a design to promote a collective mentality. Schooling functions as the most critical mechanism of mass socialization of the population into hierarchical subordination, in preparation for the atmosphere of the capitalist labor market. The authoritarianism of the classroom conditions students for the authoritarianism of the workplace. This is assessed quite comprehensively in Bowles and Gintis's Schooling in Capitalist America (http://books.google.com/books?id=s4wmAQAAIAAJ).


edit: the uniforms never affected school cliques, we still had them.

With the way some people here think, uniforms might well be the definitive solution to Irish segmentation. :lol:

[this is an invasion]

I think the more pressing question (and maybe someone brought this up already thread tl;dr) is what the role of education is, and whether school as we know it is even conducive to the communist project.


I am personally of the opinion that education is set up to recreate class society, and that schools function more like prisons than places of learning, and that one of the first steps in the communist project will be to abolish education and schooling.

[Jazzhands]

one of the first steps in the communist project will be to abolish education and schooling.
:blink:are you for real?

anyway, school uniforms cost money. Lots and lots of money paid by the student or his family. That means that what they do is sift out the lower-income students who have trouble paying for uniforms. It's just another form of exploitation.

[this is an invasion]

:blink:are you for real?


I am dead serious. I don't know how education and the school system can be viewed in any other way other than as social factories for pumping out more specialized workers. Everything about education is formed to prepare kids to become workers. School directly reproduces class society.

[Obs]

one of the first steps in the communist project will be to abolish education and schooling.
Yes! Let's keep people uneducated! What a great idea! Wow, if only capitalists had been doing that for hundreds of years, class struggle would hardly even be an issue!

EDIT: In socialism, everyone is supposed to be a worker. What's wrong with producing more?

[this is an invasion]

Yes! Let's keep people uneducated! What a great idea! Wow, if only capitalists had been doing that for hundreds of years, class struggle would hardly even be an issue!

facepalm. Yeah I totally implied that we should keep people stupid.

OR MAYBE

I am saying that education (as opposed to learning) plays a certain role in society that is not compatible with communism. Fuck guys, it's not hard to grasp.

Let's look at high school:

In math, you get some math (most of which will be forgotten), and a bunch of discipline.
In history, you get some history (that is wrong, and will most likely be forgotten - they teach you to memorize specific dates rather than analyze events), and a bunch of discipline
In English, you get some English, and a bunch of discipline.

This is true for every class you can take. The main role of education, especially in lower-education, is to teach people how to be obedient workers. Higher-education is probably a little bit better, but is still entirely geared towards producing specialized workers. Education helps capital by reinforcing social relationships.

Like I already said, I see no reason why learning needs to take place in institutions that are removed from the rest of our activities. And really, if anyone think I'm saying that we should keep workers dumb, then they're either stupid or being intentionally dense.

[this is an invasion]

EDIT: In socialism, everyone is supposed to be a worker. What's wrong with producing more?

Because being a worker sucks ass, dude. I don't want to be reduced to a machine for the rest of my life. I don't want to do specialized labor that I do not find fulfilling in anyway. I want to be able to develop as a full human being, and be able to relate to other people as human beings.

The point of communism is for the working class to abolish all classes by abolishing itself as a class.

"(...) in all past revolutions, the mode of activity has always remained intact and the only issue has been a different distribution of this activity and a redistribution of work among different persons; whereas the communist revolution is directed against the mode of activity as it has existed up till now and abolishes work and the domination of all classes by abolishing classes themselves, because it is carried out by the class which is no longer, in society, considered as a class and which is already the expression of the dissolution of all classes and all nationalities, etc. within society itself (...) (Marx, The German Ideology, 1845-46)

Daaaaamn, look at Marx being all ultra-left and shit.

[Sam_b]

Yes! Let's keep people uneducated! What a great idea!

So you believe that the current concept of schools are the only ways that people get 'educated', right?


EDIT: In socialism, everyone is supposed to be a worker. What's wrong with producing more?

Swing and a miss.

[NecroCommie]

So you believe that the current concept of schools are the only ways that people get 'educated', right?
Not exactly disagreeing here, but then we have to also remember that the current concept of schools is not the only concept of schools.

[777]

Quite simply they look very sexy. I had a happy time as a teen as our school had uniforms :D

[Uppercut]

Then please explain how a communist society would make uniforms not suck. I've asked that question twice in the post you quoted, but you ignored it.

Actually, I answered this in an earlier post. Under socialism, education would be given top priority. The community and the state would not force students to wear some low-grade, uncomfortable uniform for the sake of wearing a uniform. They would be made out of the best resources that society can muster.



I think elitism and class discrimination (which tend to go hand-in-hand) are the underlying bases of what we're talking about here, but I don't think a uniform is necessarily helpful to combat such societal ills.

It wouldn't be the "be all end all" remedy for treating social ills, but I think it would be a step in the right direction.


My point was that because of the students wearing a uniform and having no clothes/aesthetic clique to discriminate against (wearing the wrong brand, style, etc), it came down to even more inane things.

Well in that case, that's pretty sad. But are you saying that kids will always need to find something to discrimate against?



You've conveniently ignored the question "what is egalitarian school clothing" and cut out the part where my point was made.

Instead of constructing strawmen, why don't you address the issues?

To my knowledge, no one is forced to wear uniforms out of school anyway, so claiming that communism will fix this is pretty useless.

How am I conducing strawmen arguments in support of school uniforms? If you read my posts, you'd know my position on school clothing. School is a place to learn, first and foremost and it is a place that kids will spend a good deal of their lives (at least until they graduate high school). If they learn and understand that what a person is wearing out of school does not make that person (which in school uniforms will help them to realize by promoting a more collective lifestyle), then there should be no problems. Here are some stats:

"A case study of the effects of adopting school uniforms in Long Beach, CA which appeared in Psychology Today in September, 1999, reported the following effects from the switch to uniforms in 1995:


Overall, the crime rate dropped by 91%
School suspensions dropped by 90%
Sex offenses were reduced by 96%
Incidents of vandalism went down 69%
Also reporting on the Long Beach Unified School District, an Education Week article in 1998 reported that since 1994, assaults in grades Kindergarten through 8 had decreased by 85%.

source: http://www.educationbug.org/a/public-school-uniform-statistics.html

EDIT: The stats are directed at Agnapostate. I'll post more when I have the time.

[Tablo]

"A case study of the effects of adopting school uniforms in Long Beach, CA which appeared in Psychology Today in September, 1999, reported the following effects from the switch to uniforms in 1995:


Overall, the crime rate dropped by 91%
School suspensions dropped by 90%
Sex offenses were reduced by 96%
Incidents of vandalism went down 69%

Statistical correlations do not necessarily prove a point. How do we know different changes hadn't been made? For all we know the city could have instituted a new curfew around the same time these uniforms were adopted. Uniforms choke out individuality and WOULD NEVER exist in Communism(schools probably won't either).

[Nachie]

In Soviet Russia, uniform wears you!

[Raúl Duke]

Yeah, I know that's the anarchist position, but I'm talking more in terms of the types of clothing that are associated with different cliques and stereotypes (jocks, goths, etc.). Of course, it wouldn't end all conflicts, but it's definately a step in the right direction. From the statistics I've looked up, on average, the countries that require school uniforms generally have less in school fighting and stereotyping pertaining to what someone is wearing. If students could grasp the use of school uniforms, it could give them a sense of purpose and pride that they're there to receive an education and better themselves.
It could also bring some much needed discipline and organization to a rather unruely and conflict-ridden society.

Is this study done across countries?

Because in my experience in the US school uniforms do not erase cliques. Almost all my schools had uniforms and they had easily identifiable cliques.

School uniforms do not magically instill a "sense of pride and purpose" over education. That just doesn't happen. Have you ever been to a school with a uniform and into a school without one? I've been through both (mostly uniformed schools, but I've went through one school without) and uniforms do nothing.

Uniforms do not in it of itself bring "needed discipline and organization." All public schools in PR use uniforms, it doesn't mean they're all "disciplined" (in fact they have a reputation for the opposite, as being chaotic and even dangerous places). Other factors are what relate to school environments.


What is it with people saying: "School uniforms do not eradicate cliques in themselves = school uniforms do nothing" ... I mean, do I really need to point out the error in this logic? And who claimed that all the differences would disappear with clothing? One thing is certain, and that is the fact that uniforms don't make subcultural biggotry any easier.

They don't make it harder either; school uniforms have a negligible affect relative to other factors.

[Dimentio]

In a society with large class differences, school uniforms could be a good way to prevent bullying of students with a working-class background.

In a future society, schools under the current form should hopefully not exist, and school uniforms should not be needed.

[Raúl Duke]

I would like to add that if we are living in a real socialist society I think the decision to have uniforms will be made by those affected. Students should decide.

Other variations would be having the community decide, although not everyone in a community goes to school so it all relative.

[Apoi_Viitor]

First off, I think the debate over the existence of school uniforms is only relevant in a capitalist society. The only logical argument I've heard for School Uniforms to be implemented, is to save parents and teens money. Sure they stamp out individuality, but who the fuck really believes they're expressing their individuality by buying a mass produced t-shirt. Besides is "expressing your individuality" really worth spending hundreds of dollars at Pacsun or some other large retail store?

[Dimentio]

I would like to add that if we are living in a real socialist society I think the decision to have uniforms will be made by those affected. Students should decide.

Other variations would be having the community decide, although not everyone in a community goes to school so it all relative.

No they shouldn't. If a minority on a school doesn't want to wear school uniforms, they shouldn't need to. Now, I don't really believe that schools are facilitating learning. Schools in the standard form today are constructed in order to drill young people and prepare them for a life of corporate servitude.

In the 19th century, the main point of the schools were - apart from learning out writing and rudimentary mathematics - to learn the students to follow orders and do the same thing during the same amount of time with the same discipline.

The upper class schools on their part were constructed as dog-eat-dog facilities were pennalism, bullying and to some extent even sexual molestation between students was encouraged, in order to prepare the future ruling class for cruelty.

The school of the future should really be individualised, and prepare students for the love of knowledge, limitlessness, life and the Cosmos, for the pursuit of a future as star explorers, dreamers, artisans, survivors in the universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I went to a Uniformed school, the kids who were assholes on the outside of School were just as much assholes on the inside of School, more so around their buddies and with a common 'enemy' sat in front of them for hours. Putting them in a particular set of clothes doesn't make them behave any better, kids will inevitably judge each other on much less.

[The Red Next Door]

The uniforms would probably be free under socialism, but I can understand what you're saying so long as we are living under capitalism.

But we are not living under socialism.

[Peace on Earth]

Sure they stamp out individuality, but who the fuck really believes they're expressing their individuality by buying a mass produced t-shirt. Besides is "expressing your individuality" really worth spending hundreds of dollars at Pacsun or some other large retail store?
Not everyone student is a corporate zombie. Especially the students that the uniforms would supposedly help, which are low-income students, who wouldn't be buying the Pacsun or whatever other trendy clothing style that's "in" at the moment. I don't shop at stores like Aeropostale, American Eagle, or Hollister. My attire is either casual t-shirts and pants, with a hoody in the colder weather, or something political. I have no need for a uniform I don't find appealing.

And where does it end? Are we going to make all kids eat the same lunch, so there is no taunting over who eats what? How about using the exact same notebooks, pencils, paper, etc.? Should students be banned from putting stickers on their belongings, in order to "protect" students that don't have stickers? If you want to eradicate all forms of bullying, you need to turn students into even greater drones of the system. But if you value true freedom of expression, forcing students to wear clothes you deem appropriate is educational tyranny.

That's all I have.

[The Red Next Door]

I don't where you people who say that uniforms are good for the working class come from, but they are not and they are force by well meaning, elitist liberals. A gangbanger is a gangbanger, the uniform does not make not a gangbanger. a hipster will always be a hipster. the uniform does change a damn thing. It just something that liberals who want to model, England want to do. I know people who really can't afford that stuff. Uniform does not equal ending individualism.

[Dimentio]

The purpose of uniforms should not be to end individualism, but to end the "fashion race" in schools. That's their only purpose.

[Peace on Earth]

The purpose of uniforms should not be to end individualism, but to end the "fashion race" in schools. That's their only purpose.
Regardless, there would be unintended consequences.

[McCroskey]

Initially, at least in the UK, the purpose of the school uniform is to avoid bullying or segregation by class or economic situation. Pity that schools issue several, quite identifiable, options to purchase them, from upmarket tailors to 10 pounds supermarket ones. Everyone at school still nows whose parents paid 200 quid for the uniform and who got them at Tesco's.

Also I believe it's more of an anglo-saxon thing. In other parts of the world, like southern europe, it would be weird to see state school children wearing a uniform, for instance.

And my last opinion: we are also told that children indentify with their school by wearing its uniform and logo, and helps them to feel that they belong to a community. Well, this belonging now is focused on the league tables, a copy from current corporate trends of target-hitting. The children are compelled to think that their marks in exams are a corporate target and they need to do this to effectively compete with other schools to get more profits (ie better funding or avoid closure), and education is not seen as a human right anymore, or as a means to improve themselves and be able to understand and interpret the world they live in.

[fa2991]

I've been to schools both with and without mandatory uniforms. I would prefer to be allowed to dress casually, but must begrudgingly admit that in my experience students are a lot happier and better integrated with uniforms.

[Reznov]

I remember this one middle school I went to, it was kind of strange because some of the bus's went to the north side of town where richer kids were. And then it picked up poorer kids from the southside of town.

They required us to wear uniforms.

And the school is an A school.

Hoenstly in my opinion, wearing uniforms just brought down a big negative aspect common in schools ("Clicks", frowns on poorer kids for "crappy clothing").

I dont really get the whole "social conditioning" arguement. I wore uniforms when i was in school and nowadays I still fucking hate working a bunch of hours and barely making enough to pay my bills.

[Peace on Earth]

They required us to wear uniforms.

And the school is an A school.
Lance Armstrong had testicular cancer.

And he won seven Tour de Frances.

So I suppose having testicular cancer leads one to be an excellent cyclist?

[Vendetta]

School uniforms are fucking retarded.

Let kids be kids.

[fa2991]

School uniforms are fucking retarded.

Let kids be kids.

Off the top of my head, I can think of twenty people I knew from middle school that would have been infinitely more socially accepted and probably better students if everyone wore uniforms.

[KurtFF8]

So I'm not particularly opposed to school uniforms. I was opposed to the idea when I was in High School (as there was talk about implementing them at the time). But I was also opposed to it based on things like "people should be able to express their individuality!" and ideas like that that are common liberal arguments against the "imposing school uniforms"

I'm not saying that uniforms are a solution to any particular problem, but under capitalism, it seems odd for a leftist to take a strong stance either way.

The lack of uniforms leads students (or depending on their age/class status/parents class status) to having the "freedom" of participating in a market place as a consumer. This is coupled with the fact that most industries that make products aimed at children/teens devote quite a hefty chunk of money towards advertising (and psychologists) to find out how best to sell styles and particular clothing to kids.

This "freedom" that students at non-uniform schools is simply the freedom of a consumer in a capitalistic economy. Yes some kids with the means can perhaps make or modify their own clothes, but this doesn't take into account that most don't have the real means to do this, especially when they're up against mega corporate interests who try their hardest to sell even to the "rebellious youth" and tailor their product accordingly.


As for schools just being another form of a factory and uniforms just being another expression of authoritarianism: under this system, the alternative is just the commodity marketplace for clothing as I mentioned before.

I also disagree with the assessment that education is somehow something we need to rid ourselves of because of how it is utilized under capitalism. What we need is a different kind of education that focuses on human development, not on making workers just smart enough for the labor market. That doesn't mean that the only form of education is the current one, it's simply not. I'm also sure that plenty of public school teachers would also disagree with that sentiment (especially the progressive or socialist ones)

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

All school uniforms should have skirts.

Down with trouser tyranny.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

All school uniforms should have skirts.

Down with trouser tyranny.

This.

[Sam_b]

Great post as ever Wolfie. Next time i'd prefer to not have to trawl through your irrelevant crap in a thread with potential.

[Tablo]

The purpose of uniforms should not be to end individualism, but to end the "fashion race" in schools. That's their only purpose.
What is wrong with fashion? When socialism is achieved no one would have any advantage in buying clothes since everyone would have equal access.

[leftace53]

Sectarian shitstorm over school uniforms. How very RevLeft.
Making everyone look the same won't end discrimination, education will.

[Apoi_Viitor]

What is wrong with fashion? When socialism is achieved no one would have any advantage in buying clothes since everyone would have equal access.

I think his argument was based around the presumption, that this debate was over school uniforms in a capitalist society. I think that this debate would not exist in a socialist society, rather, only in a capitalist one. And in current society, I'd be glad to support school uniforms, and bring an end to the "fashion arms race" .

[Invincible Summer]

First off, I think the debate over the existence of school uniforms is only relevant in a capitalist society. The only logical argument I've heard for School Uniforms to be implemented, is to save parents and teens money. Sure they stamp out individuality, but who the fuck really believes they're expressing their individuality by buying a mass produced t-shirt. Besides is "expressing your individuality" really worth spending hundreds of dollars at Pacsun or some other large retail store?

On "casual days" and out of school, I've noticed lots of the students usually try to wear clothes as trendy and expensive as possible to make up for the time lost flaunting their clothes at school. So much for "saving money."

[AK]

I see the school uniform as just bigger clique. How about we try and teach kids that there's no crime in thinking for yourself and hopefully kids might just be themselves instead following some kind of "fashion code" set by celebrities and such and fractioning into emo herds or goth herds or jock herds.
Emo herds? I wouldn't mind using cattle prods on some of them, myself.

[bailey_187]

Its stupid to think that school uniforms could stop "cliques". its not like someone from a "nerd" group one day could just dress like a "cool" group and be part of them. so everyone wearing the same clothes isnt going to stop groups.

people will do little things to their unifrom too. In Britain where i went school the "cool" groups wear black trainers rather than shoes, have thier their unform tie done small etc, while "nerd" groups wont

[NecroCommie]

Its stupid to think that school uniforms could stop "cliques". its not like someone from a "nerd" group one day could just dress like a "cool" group and be part of them. so everyone wearing the same clothes isnt going to stop groups.
For the thousandth time: No one has ever claimed anything like this. This claim recognizing really isn't a rocket science.

[Dimentio]

What is wrong with fashion? When socialism is achieved no one would have any advantage in buying clothes since everyone would have equal access.

As long as we're talking capitalism, fashion outfits would always be more expensive due to the fact that popular things are either naturally scarce, or deliberately made scarce in order to increase their desirability.

[Magón]

Emo herds? I wouldn't mind using cattle prods on some of them, myself.

:lol: They'd actually probably like you to. "Because we'd really feel nearer to death, man!" Ah Emo kids, can never get enough of their hilarity.:laugh:

[The Red Next Door]

I think his argument was based around the presumption, that this debate was over school uniforms in a capitalist society. I think that this debate would not exist in a socialist society, rather, only in a capitalist one. And in current society, I'd be glad to support school uniforms, and bring an end to the "fashion arms race" .

I think the key to ending the fashion race, is to teach kids, that their opinion of themselves matter and fuck what everybody else fucking think.

[bailey_187]

I think the key to ending the fashion race, is to teach kids, that their opinion of themselves matter and fuck what everybody else fucking think.

of course it matters what others think of you. the question is, is their judgement fair.

[The Red Next Door]

of course it matters what others think of you. the question is, is their judgement fair.

It should not matter if it a fair judgment either.

[CleverTitle]

I don't think it makes any massive difference either way. It all depends on context, I guess. Under capitalism a lack of uniforms just means a greater focus on disparity of income, and the obnoxious "my family makes more money than your family" thing, but that's a problem of capitalism, not of a lack of uniforms.

As for the stuff on cliques, I think that the impact would be relatively negligible, and probably not worth swaying to one side of the argument over.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I think the key to ending the fashion race, is to teach kids, that their opinion of themselves matter and fuck what everybody else fucking think.

Well, I guess, I agree that all changes should be made bottom-up, not top down. So, I take back my original support for a law specifically forcing students to wear school uniforms. In a sort-of agreement with what you, quite elegantly stated, we should be focusing on telling kids to end the "fashion race" themselves, rather than forcing school uniforms upon them.

[KurtFF8]

I don't think it makes any massive difference either way. It all depends on context, I guess. Under capitalism a lack of uniforms just means a greater focus on disparity of income, and the obnoxious "my family makes more money than your family" thing, but that's a problem of capitalism, not of a lack of uniforms.

I agree with here (and is what I was getting at with my earlier post). But of course, introducing uniforms under capitalism isn't a solution to this greater social issue. And chances are that considering Neo-Liberalism is still alive and well, it would be a private company that you'd have to buy the uniforms from (with non-union labor the whole way down the line, etc.)

But then again, so is most of the shit that kids wear anyway.