Anglicization

[learnitarian]

Why do most people anglicize certain names but not others?

Karl Marx = NOT anglicized

Friedrich Engels = anglicized as Frederick

Vladimir Lenin = NOT anglicized

Ioseb Stalin = anglicized as Joseph

Lyev Trotzky = anglicized as Leon Trotsky

Róza Luksemburg = anglicized as Rosa Luxemburg

Mikhail Bakunin = anglicized as Michael

Pyotr Kropotkin = anglicized as Peter

I could go on.

(I know some of those are not birth names.)

Why don't people call Marx "Carl" and Lenin "whatever Vladimir would be" :lol: OR why anglicize at all?

[graymouser]

Well, there are a number of things at work here. Marx and Engels worked in Britain for much of their lives and the official English translations of their works bore the names "Karl Marx" and "Frederick Engels" as far as I'm aware.

Russian names have a different history. Official writings of Lenin and Stalin were frequently direct from the USSR, who decided on "Vladimir Lenin" and "Joseph Stalin" as the forms of those names. Trotsky signed his name as "Léon Trotsky" in French and that became the standard among his followers in the English language as well (without the aigu).

There weren't standards for all this until the mid-20th century so people went with what they knew. A lot of the popularizers of these people were also recent immigrants, which I think explains the spelling "Trotzki" - which makes more sense in German than English.

[RedAnarchist]

As far as Vladimir goes, I don't think there is an English version of the name.

[RED DAVE]

As far as Vladimir goes, I don't think there is an English version of the name.As far as I recall, Lenin never used the name "Vladimir Lenin" or "V.I. Lenin." His party name was "Lenin" or "N. Lenin." He never used "Nikolai Lenin."

His birthname was Valdimir Ilyich Ulyanov, which in English would be Vladimir, son of Ilya Ulyanov. According to Russian custom, close comrades and friends called him "Vladimir Ilyich." Krupskaya, his wife, called him "Volodya."

RED DAVE

[AK]

Lyev Trotzky = anglicized as Leon Trotsky
Wow. I only just got Revleft's Lyev's username.

[RED DAVE]

Wow. I only just got Revleft's Lyev's username.Trotsky's birthname was Lev (or Leyev) Davidovitch Bronstein.

RED DAVE

[learnitarian]

Well, there are a number of things at work here. Marx and Engels worked in Britain for much of their lives and the official English translations of their works bore the names "Karl Marx" and "Frederick Engels" as far as I'm aware.

Russian names have a different history. Official writings of Lenin and Stalin were frequently direct from the USSR, who decided on "Vladimir Lenin" and "Joseph Stalin" as the forms of those names. Trotsky signed his name as "Léon Trotsky" in French and that became the standard among his followers in the English language as well (without the aigu).

There weren't standards for all this until the mid-20th century so people went with what they knew. A lot of the popularizers of these people were also recent immigrants, which I think explains the spelling "Trotzki" - which makes more sense in German than English.

Thanks for the informative post.

[mikelepore]

Note also, when Marx and Engels had their writings published in Spanish, they signed their names Carlos Marx and Federico Engels. For example, "Manifiesto del Partido Comunista", por Carlos Marx y Federico Engels. I don't know why this was considered necessary.

[Widerstand]

Róza Luksemburg = anglicized as Rosa Luxemburg


I think she called herself Rosa Luxemburg in Germany, at least that's the only version I know of her name. Also, wasn't it "Rozalia Luksenburg" originally?

[mikelepore]

Ioseb Stalin = anglicized as Joseph

The "B" that you may have seen in print, as the last letter of Stalin's first name, is easy to explain.

The Russian letter that looks like our B (never written as b, even if it's lower case) is usually pronounced like our V, but the exception is that when it's the last letter in any word it's pronounced like our F instead.

When applying that rule about Russian names ending in B, we more frequently encounter it with names like Gorbachev or Khrushchev. There we also need another rule: when "e" has two dots over it, it's pronounced like "yaw" and it also becomes the accented syllable. Therefore the last syllable in these names looks in print like [e with two dots over it][followed by B] and it's correctly pronounced "yawf".

[Comrade Gwydion]

Rosa Luxemburg sounds like perfectly fine german to me (living close to the german border). It obviously depends on how you pronounce it.
Or am I mistaken that she's german?

[ComradeOm]

Why don't people call Marx "Carl"Because the English equivalent of 'Karl' is 'Charles'. The use of 'Carl' as an English name is typically an American tradition. Now obviously 'Karl' is different enough from 'Charles' not to warrant automatic anglicisation


Rosa Luxemburg sounds like perfectly fine german to me (living close to the german border). It obviously depends on how you pronounce it.
Or am I mistaken that she's german?She was a Pole who lived most of her life in Germany (and all of it in the German Empire). I'm not sure whether she ever used the Polish version of her name. Rosa Luxemburg would be the German equivalent of Róza Luksemburg