Revolutionary priest ??

[fionntan]

ishop Daly's 'doubts' over Claudy bomb report claims

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48848000/jpg/_48848280_d37994d6-3f8f-41ef-9160-21822ca85125.jpg The report said police believed Fr James Chesney was an IRA leader and was involved in the bombing
The former Bishop of Derry, Edward Daly, has said he has doubts about allegations of a priest's involvement in the IRA.
A NI Police Ombudsman report confirmed detectives believed Fr James Chesney was involved in the Claudy bombing which killed nine people in 1972.
Bishop Daly said he had interviewed the priest in the 1970s and been told he was only a "verbal republican".
Three no-warning bombs exploded in the Co Londonderry village on 31 July 1972.
Police Ombudsman Al Hutchinson found talks between the Catholic Church, the police and the government led to Fr Chesney, who was suspected of involvement in the attack, being moved to the Irish Republic.
No action was ever taken against Fr Chesney, who detectives believed was the IRA's 'director of operations' in south County Derry.
He died of cancer in 1980 aged 46.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11081080#story_continues_1) Claudy Bombing



Claudy bomb conspiracy revealed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296)
Claudy probe findings at a glance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11069698)
Did priest get away with murder? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11071321)
Reaction to Claudy bomb report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11072509)



A former detective has said the RUC team investigating the bombing would have had no involvement in any decision not to question Fr Chesney.
The retired detective, who did not want his name used but who was close to the investigation, said the decision to leave the priest alone was made at a senior level.
"The decision not to pursue Mr Chesney was not taken at a low level, it was not made by those who were investigating this or were any way associated with it," he told the BBC on Wednesday.
"This was not a decision by the RUC in general, this was not a decision by the detective inspector who was leading the investigation and those who were working with him.
"This was a decision made above - way above - the investigating team."
Brendan O'Neill, whose aunt Rose McLaughlin was murdered in the bombing, said his family want to know what the prime minister of the day, Ted Heath, knew about what was going on.
"Patricia, the daughter who lives down south, she was posing questions today about what did Number 10 Downing Street know about all this and did they do anything about it.
"She still didn't get those questions answered and they're some of the things that have to be answered before you're going to get closure."
'Serious doubts' Bishop Daly said in the 1970s he discussed with Fr Chesney the allegations that the priest was an active member of the IRA.
"As I have stated many times before, I have always had serious doubts about the long-standing allegations surrounding Father James Chesney relating to the Claudy bombing," he said.
"He died 30 years ago and I am prepared now to leave him to the Lord, the God of justice.
"I have to admit being sceptical of much of the RUC and Special Branch intelligence in the early 1970s and the interrogation techniques and other devious methods by which some such intelligence was acquired.
"Father Chesney vehemently denied involvement in any kind of IRA activity to me on two occasions, in 1974, not long after I was appointed Bishop of Derry, and again in 1977. He also denied such involvement earlier to my predecessor, Bishop Neil Farren."
'Betrayal' Mr Hutchinson said some detectives' attempts to pursue Fr Chesney were frustrated ahead of a meeting between Northern Ireland Secretary William Whitelaw and the leader of Ireland's Catholics, Cardinal Conway.
There, it was agreed that the priest would be moved to a parish in Donegal, just over the border in the Irish Republic.
Bishop Daly said the failure of the RUC to arrest and question Fr Chesney was "beyond understanding".
"I believe that this constituted a huge betrayal of the victims," he added.
He said he was not aware of Cardinal Conway's involvement in the case until it was made known by Sam Kinkaid, then Assistant Chief Constable of the PSNI on 20 December 2002.
"This report now clarifies that the Cardinal's involvement was initiated by the Secretary of State, at the behest of the police," Bishop Daly said.
"Cardinal Conway did not at any time discuss Father Chesney with me, nor did any police officer or any member of the Northern Ireland Office.
"During my 20 years as Bishop of Derry, I regularly met such people."
Bishop Daly said that he had a lengthy meeting with the former Police Ombudsman, Nuala O'Loan, in November 2006 during which he told her her "everything I knew about the case".
No paramilitary group has ever claimed responsibility for the Claudy bombings, and no-one has been convicted of them.
Edward Daly was Bishop of Derry between 1974 and 1993.

[fionntan]

The reason why i put this in the politics section was that can a
Marxist army at the time have priests
operating for them..

[Crimson Commissar]

Uhm, the IRA is NOT a marxist organisation.

[durhamleft]

Uhm, the IRA is NOT a marxist organisation.

Indeed

[blake 3:17]

I was very interested to see this story come out. I figured it was some kind of political pay back for the Bloody Sunday report.

Lots here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/bloodysunday

I have a pretty stunted understanding of the relationship between socialists/Marxists and Catholics in the Irish freedom struggle.

Michael Lowy has written extensively on the relationship between Revolutionary Socialism and Christianity -- he has studied and discussed trends in Latin America, I don't know how well they correspond to Ireland: http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/article.php3?id_article=807

[costello1977]

Uhm, the IRA is NOT a marxist organisation.

Care to expand on that point?

[Crimson Commissar]

Care to expand on that point?
They are nationalists. How can you seriously call yourself a leftist when you support the IRA? We don't accept nationalism from any other nation, but when a nationalist organisation in a country like Ireland comes around everyone cheers them on. Ireland needs a real revolutionary socialist organisation, this IRA nationalist bullshit isn't going to get them anywhere.

[costello1977]

They are nationalists. How can you seriously call yourself a leftist when you support the IRA? We don't accept nationalism from any other nation, but when a nationalist organisation in a country like Ireland comes around everyone cheers them on. Ireland needs a real revolutionary socialist organisation, this IRA nationalist bullshit isn't going to get them anywhere.

So basically they can't be a leftist organisation because you said they don't qualify to your standards?

Is this a personal grudge against the Irish or something? The point is that the aim of the IRA is to establish a "32 county democratic socialist Republic". Irish Republicanism is so fractured at this moment in time that their is several different strands of Republicanism, ranging from the bourgeoisie Republicanism of Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein to the radical Republican Socialism of the IRSP and Eirigi.

True, the IRA can become tied down in Nationalist dogma, however it doesn't mean they are socialists. I can remember the IRA robbing Landlords and redistributing it to the people who were being robbed by the landlord. I remember the IRA organising rate strikes and rent strikes and organising the people to get social housing provisions, it wasn't anyone else, and it certainly wasn't the socialists in Ireland, who limit their activities to constipation of ideas in several of Belfast's most well known pubs.

Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And by the way, which IRA are you talking about?

[durhamleft]

So basically they can't be a leftist organisation because you said they don't qualify to your standards?

Is this a personal grudge against the Irish or something? The point is that the aim of the IRA is to establish a "32 county democratic socialist Republic". Irish Republicanism is so fractured at this moment in time that their is several different strands of Republicanism, ranging from the bourgeoisie Republicanism of Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein to the radical Republican Socialism of the IRSP and Eirigi.

True, the IRA can become tied down in Nationalist dogma, however it doesn't mean they are socialists. I can remember the IRA robbing Landlords and redistributing it to the people who were being robbed by the landlord. I remember the IRA organising rate strikes and rent strikes and organising the people to get social housing provisions, it wasn't anyone else, and it certainly wasn't the socialists in Ireland, who limit their activities to constipation of ideas in several of Belfast's most well known pubs.

Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And by the way, which IRA are you talking about?

:lol:

The IRA were simply an Anti-British, pro-Catholic, pro-unification of Ireland. While I have some sympathy with them in their fight against the British, as they way we treated the Irish was shocking, to call them Marxist is simply incorrect. The IRA I'm talking about is the Irish Republican Army, that functioned throughout the 70s and 80s. The real IRA or whatever are totally different. But yeah, they are not Marxists.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

They are nationalists. How can you seriously call yourself a leftist when you support the IRA? We don't accept nationalism from any other nation, but when a nationalist organisation in a country like Ireland comes around everyone cheers them on. Ireland needs a real revolutionary socialist organisation, this IRA nationalist bullshit isn't going to get them anywhere.

The liberation of oppressed nations is a necessary condition for the building of communism. When a country is under foreign occupation, national origin and class become intertwined. A national consciousness in that context is not bullshit, it is a reflection of the class struggle.

[AK]

So basically they can't be a leftist organisation because you said they don't qualify to your standards?
Internationalism and anti-nationalism aren't exactly high standards. All you have to do is focus your agitating and organising on the international working class and the international working class alone.

[Rale]

Uhm, the IRA is NOT a marxist organisation.

Marxist not...left nationalist yes.

[aty]

:lol:

The IRA were simply an Anti-British, pro-Catholic, pro-unification of Ireland. While I have some sympathy with them in their fight against the British, as they way we treated the Irish was shocking, to call them Marxist is simply incorrect. The IRA I'm talking about is the Irish Republican Army, that functioned throughout the 70s and 80s. The real IRA or whatever are totally different. But yeah, they are not Marxists.
That does not mean that individual members of the PIRA was not marxist. Just have a look at Ivor Bell who was once Chief of Staff of the PIRA. I think PIRA were marxist to some extent.

PIRA was not nationalist but republican, socialist and antiimperialists.

[durhamleft]

That does not mean that individual members of the PIRA was not marxist. Just have a look at Ivor Bell who was once Chief of Staff of the PIRA. I think PIRA were marxist to some extent.

PIRA was not nationalist but republican, socialist and antiimperialists.

Now, I would never question that some members were Marxist, like some Labour Party members are Marxist, but to call it a Marxist organisation is to me just incorrect.

[Hoggy_RS]

Apparently Gerry Adams claimed "there is no marxists in Sinn Fein". (http://irsm.org/history/whyirps.html)

Provisional Sinn Fein has never claimed to be marxist and at this point in time is a capitalist establishment party that still clings to a small amount of revolutionary rhetoric. One of the reasons for the foundation of PSF and the PIRA was opposition to the officials marxism.

[costello1977]

The I the I the IRA!

[727Goon]

If you dont support the Irish struggle against imperialism and for socialism, please never call anyone a liberal, ever. I'm about to get some IRA inspired ink actually, with a black nationalist and anarchist twist on that one mural that says: "Years from now they will ask you where you were when your comrades were dying on hungerstrike. Shall you say you were with us or shall you say that you were conforming to the very system that drove us to our deaths"

[Palingenisis]

:lol:

The IRA were simply an Anti-British, pro-Catholic, pro-unification of Ireland. While I have some sympathy with them in their fight against the British, as they way we treated the Irish was shocking, to call them Marxist is simply incorrect. The IRA I'm talking about is the Irish Republican Army, that functioned throughout the 70s and 80s. The real IRA or whatever are totally different. But yeah, they are not Marxists.

The IRA contained Marxists dedicated to the liberation of the working class and oppressed internationaly, it also contained parochial "Defenderist" sectarian scum who were/are cose to fascists and everything between these two poles. Ex-Squaddies fought in the Provos after having "served" in Ireland so they werent exactly "anti-British". Also where they could get away with it Roman Catholic priests made kids pray at assembly for British forces killed which was something they NEVER did for Provo Volunteers. RC Priests would often try to pull the flag, berret and gloves off the coffins of martyred volunteers. There is a strong streak of anti-clericalism in even the most pious Irish Republican.

[Palingenisis]

Apparently Gerry Adams claimed "there is no marxists in Sinn Fein". (http://irsm.org/history/whyirps.html)

Provisional Sinn Fein has never claimed to be marxist and at this point in time is a capitalist establishment party that still clings to a small amount of revolutionary rhetoric. One of the reasons for the foundation of PSF and the PIRA was opposition to the officials marxism.

That scumbag Killian Forde said recently that one of the reasons he left the Provies was because "Marxism is a dead idealolgy"....If wasnt funny it would be tragic. However I dont think the Officials were Marxist as such in 69, the break was over absentionism and reading other things into it in retrospect I think is wrong.

However the Provies went on to disgrace Republicanism and the Sticks went on to disgrace Marxism.

[gorillafuck]

The liberation of oppressed nations is a necessary condition for the building of communism. When a country is under foreign occupation, national origin and class become intertwined. A national consciousness in that context is not bullshit, it is a reflection of the class struggle.
But what were the IRA's aims? If it was for the ousting of British control but also the overthrow of both the British and Irish (and international, obviously) ruling classes and the establishment of socialism, then they would be a worthwhile socialist organization. But they were for reunification with capitalist Ireland and the maintenance of capitalism, so that is not worth anything in the struggle for socialism. Socialists in Northern Ireland need to fight against both the British as well as the Irish ruling class. The IRA didn't do that, despite having token Marxist members.

[costello1977]

But what were the IRA's aims? If it was for the ousting of British control but also the overthrow of both the British and Irish (and international, obviously) ruling classes and the establishment of socialism, then they would be a worthwhile socialist organization. But they were for reunification with capitalist Ireland and the maintenance of capitalism, so that is not worth anything in the struggle for socialism. Socialists in Northern Ireland need to fight against both the British as well as the Irish ruling class. The IRA didn't do that, despite having token Marxist members.


They did until they sold out, the INLA defo did.

They work on the principle that you could take down the Union Jack and put up a tricolour and you wouldn't have achieved freedom, that unless you change the system that subjugates the working class, then the interests of the English and British will always be served.

[Crimson Commissar]

They did until they sold out, the INLA defo did.

They work on the principle that you could take down the Union Jack and put up a tricolour and you wouldn't have achieved freedom, that unless you change the system that subjugates the working class, then the interests of the English and British will always be served.
Can you provide some proof that the IRA was ever an officially Marxist organisation? They may have had some leftist members, but I don't believe they ever officially stood against capitalism. They openly support the Irish capitalist state, that is not Marxist at all. Our comrades in Ireland should be fighting against both the British imperialists and the Irish capitalists.

[Palingenisis]

Can you provide some proof that the IRA was ever an officially Marxist organisation? They may have had some leftist members, but I don't believe they ever officially stood against capitalism. They openly support the Irish capitalist state, that is not Marxist at all. Our comrades in Ireland should be fighting against both the British imperialists and the Irish capitalists.

They were never a Marxist organization but their stated aimed was a 32 Democratic Socialist Republic though after the split with the Officials they officially advocated what was basically "Distributism" for awhile which people who had entered into the Provisional movement from both Trotskyism (the People's Democracy group which played a big enough role in NICRA and the start of the troubles) aswell as from autonomist Marxism ended up getting them to ditch in I think 1986 when a lot of the old southern hardliners were pushed out by a combination of the left and the Adams faction.

As regards openly supporting the capitalist state thats a complex issue. Provisional Sinn Fein have become the "Cafalick" party now in what remains a deeply sectarian state where they fight over British crumbs with the Democratic Unionist Party (which contains some really out there theocratic elements) though technically they are supposed to be "power sharing". They sell this people as the only realistic alternative. However a lot of the older members they have left barely recognise the legitimacy of the state in the 26 counties and have very bitter memories of Police brutality.

[costello1977]

Can you provide some proof that the IRA was ever an officially Marxist organisation? They may have had some leftist members, but I don't believe they ever officially stood against capitalism. They openly support the Irish capitalist state, that is not Marxist at all. Our comrades in Ireland should be fighting against both the British imperialists and the Irish capitalists.

The IRA was never a marxist organisation but it was defo a leftist movement.

The INLA and the IRSP were marxist. www.irsm.org (http://www.irsm.org)

[Crimson Commissar]

The IRA was never a marxist organisation but it was defo a leftist movement.

The INLA and the IRSP were marxist. www.irsm.org (http://www.irsm.org)
Of course, I never denied that the INLA was marxist. But the IRA is an openly nationalist organisation. They support the capitalist Republic of Ireland, while a true leftist organisation would seek to overthrow both the British rule in Northern Ireland and the Capitalist rule in the rest of Ireland.

[costello1977]

Of course, I never denied that the INLA was marxist. But the IRA is an openly nationalist organisation. They support the capitalist Republic of Ireland, while a true leftist organisation would seek to overthrow both the British rule in Northern Ireland and the Capitalist rule in the rest of Ireland.

The provos did yeah no doubt. The problem was that in the split in 1969 the provos took in an influx of reactionaries who weren't totally committed to the struggle. The outcome is that in 1998 the Provos split. The heirarchy in the provos has become tied into the British state through economic interests. What people don't realise is that the IRA who still fight (RIRA) serve the interests of the Irish Republic, a 32 county socialist republic. They are painted as mental men who want to kill people by the British media in order to limit the success of their message!

[Crimson Commissar]

The provos did yeah no doubt. The problem was that in the split in 1969 the provos took in an influx of reactionaries who weren't totally committed to the struggle. The outcome is that in 1998 the Provos split. The heirarchy in the provos has become tied into the British state through economic interests. What people don't realise is that the IRA who still fight (RIRA) serve the interests of the Irish Republic, a 32 county socialist republic. They are painted as mental men who want to kill people by the British media in order to limit the success of their message!
Well, they pretty much are mental to be honest. Bombing random civilians isn't exactly the best way of starting a socialist revolution...

[costello1977]

Well, they pretty much are mental to be honest. Bombing random civilians isn't exactly the best way of starting a socialist revolution...

Cara, living in Belfast I might be a bit too far away to get reliable sources, but when did this happen? Omagh, the bomb the British knew about and let happen? The one which exploded ten feet from a police cordon yet injured not a single peeler? Which ruined the momentum the RIRA were gathering at that time?

[Pavlov's House Party]

Well, they pretty much are mental to be honest. Bombing random civilians isn't exactly the best way of starting a socialist revolution...

I don't think they were trying to start a socialist revolution... they were fighting for a united Ireland. I don't see how you can say you're a socialist, let alone a Marxist without showing solidarity for the struggles of opressed nationalities.

[Kano]

They are nationalists. How can you seriously call yourself a leftist when you support the IRA? We don't accept nationalism from any other nation, but when a nationalist organisation in a country like Ireland comes around everyone cheers them on. Ireland needs a real revolutionary socialist organisation, this IRA nationalist bullshit isn't going to get them anywhere.

As a Marxist you should be able to understand that the 'IRA' cant and shouldnt be analysed from a fixed point of view. It isnt a static thing, it has evolved and is continuing to evolve, just like all social things. As a Marxist you should be vey well practiced with this method of analysis. Looking at social things as static is a conservative trait, not a revolutionary Marxist one.

The IRA stretches way back to the united Irishmen. The movement against the British in Ireland has gone through many forms. Ex-IRA men went and fought with and against the fascists in Spain. The official IRA were socialist, the provos were left leaning, the IRSM were Marxist. Its a mixed bag really. Anybody who has even a basic understanding of Irish history would know this. It seems to be that British Marxists fail to grasp the realities of whats going on in Ireland because of their lack of real knowledge of its deep historical past.

[Adi Shankara]

They are nationalists. How can you seriously call yourself a leftist when you support the IRA? We don't accept nationalism from any other nation, but when a nationalist organisation in a country like Ireland comes around everyone cheers them on. Ireland needs a real revolutionary socialist organisation, this IRA nationalist bullshit isn't going to get them anywhere.

Using that criteria, then Ho Chi Minh wasn't a communist, and neither was Choybalsan (well, that's debatable) nor was Thomas Sankara, or Enver Hoxha.

[Crimson Commissar]

Using that criteria, then Ho Chi Minh wasn't a communist, and neither was Choybalsan (well, that's debatable) nor was Thomas Sankara, or Enver Hoxha.
Ho Chi Minh, Thomas Sankara and Enver Hoxha were all openly communist and established socialist regimes in their own countries. Where as the IRA has never been openly communist, although maybe it was at one point socialist in some way, and supports Irish nationalism and a united Ireland under the capitalist republic of Ireland.

And for those of you who seem to think that I support imperialism in Ireland, I do not. I am completely against it. But Irish national liberationist organisations tend to focus way too much on the British occupation and do NOT critiscize capitalism at all. I fully support the Irish struggle for independence, but I feel as if it has become much more of a nationalist struggle rather than a socialist one, and that definitely needs to change.

[Soldier of life]

Just to add in a small point. The INLA also had a priest in their ranks, he was a former POW as well.

[bricolage]

Using that criteria, then Ho Chi Minh wasn't a communist, and neither was Choybalsan (well, that's debatable) nor was Thomas Sankara, or Enver Hoxha.
I think it is fair to say that none of those people were communists.
(although I don't really know anything much about Choybalsan).